Planet Rugby Forum

Gospel wrote:

Rinkals wrote:

Gospel wrote:

Rinkals wrote:Strange how people in the UK are so anxious to see the EU fail.

They'd be mad to as the UK will be much better off with a strong and successful trading partner

Rinkals wrote:Do you honestly feel that a fragmented European marketplace would offer better trade opportunities?

See above.

Rinkals wrote:Or is it just that they are a pack of spiteful plum?

See above.

Exactly!

Your triggered response seemed to ignore the fact that the paper was written by a Former Irish Ambassador and Senior Irish Civil Servant. No one is calling for the EU to fail.

Gospel wrote:

Rinkals wrote:

Gospel wrote:

Rinkals wrote:Strange how people in the UK are so anxious to see the EU fail.

They'd be mad to as the UK will be much better off with a strong and successful trading partner

Rinkals wrote:Do you honestly feel that a fragmented European marketplace would offer better trade opportunities?

See above.

Rinkals wrote:Or is it just that they are a pack of spiteful plum?

See above.

Exactly!

Your triggered response seemed to ignore the fact that the paper was written by a Former Irish Ambassador and Senior Irish Civil Servant. No one is calling for the EU to fail.

Lenny wrote:The problem is that in the majority of the important ones (US, EU, China, India etc.) you'll be very much the junior partner, with far less economic clout, and the danger is that those bespoke deals will favour the other party more than you. This idea that all other countries will come cap in hand, begging you to export your goods to them without a very significan quid pro quo, is stunningly naive. There is also the issue of how long it takes to negotiate those deals, especially in the absence of any qualified or experienced trade negotiators.

Rinkals wrote:However, I have heard the opinion expressed previously (might have been on here) that one of the justifications of leaving Europe was that it was close to collapse.

The Sun God wrote:And a rampant Anglophile who spent far too long in Canada. He has no official position in Ireland and is on the payroll of a right wing tory love-in.

Gospel wrote:

Rinkals wrote:However, I have heard the opinion expressed previously (might have been on here) that one of the justifications of leaving Europe was that it was close to collapse.

So a different point entirely then.

Rinkals wrote:

Gospel wrote:

Rinkals wrote:However, I have heard the opinion expressed previously (might have been on here) that one of the justifications of leaving Europe was that it was close to collapse.

So a different point entirely then.

Well, sort of.

There's an eagerness to see the EU fold once Britain was out of it as this would provide vindication. The fact that, as you rightly point out, this would not be to Britain's advantage is not really considered.

The problem is that in the majority of the important ones (US, EU, China, India etc.) you'll be very much the junior partner, with far less economic clout and the danger is that those bespoke deals will favour the other party more than you. This idea that all other countries will come cap in hand, begging you to export your goods to them without a very significan quid pro quo, is stunningly naive. There is also the issue of how long it takes to negotiate those deals, especially in the absence of any qualified or experienced trade negotiators.

Gospel wrote:

Rinkals wrote:

Gospel wrote:

Rinkals wrote:However, I have heard the opinion expressed previously (might have been on here) that one of the justifications of leaving Europe was that it was close to collapse.

So a different point entirely then.

Well, sort of.

There's an eagerness to see the EU fold once Britain was out of it as this would provide vindication. The fact that, as you rightly point out, this would not be to Britain's advantage is not really considered.

There is not an eagerness. That would be hugely counterproductive. The UK wants the EU to feel happy with itself as that's our best chance of good deal.

Rinkals wrote:

Gospel wrote:

Rinkals wrote:

Gospel wrote:

Rinkals wrote:However, I have heard the opinion expressed previously (might have been on here) that one of the justifications of leaving Europe was that it was close to collapse.

So a different point entirely then.

Well, sort of.

There's an eagerness to see the EU fold once Britain was out of it as this would provide vindication. The fact that, as you rightly point out, this would not be to Britain's advantage is not really considered.

There is not an eagerness. That would be hugely counterproductive. The UK wants the EU to feel happy with itself as that's our best chance of good deal.

Of course.

However, not everyone who voted to leave understands that they need the EU.

Gospel wrote:

Lenny wrote:The problem is that in the majority of the important ones (US, EU, China, India etc.) you'll be very much the junior partner, with far less economic clout, and the danger is that those bespoke deals will favour the other party more than you. This idea that all other countries will come cap in hand, begging you to export your goods to them without a very significan quid pro quo, is stunningly naive. There is also the issue of how long it takes to negotiate those deals, especially in the absence of any qualified or experienced trade negotiators.

Well right now we don't have a trade deal with the US or China because the EU hasn't been able to agree terms. Without the same red-lines as the EU it's possible the UK might be able to find common ground with these two trading powerhouses; say for instance with services. There will be both gains and losses with this 'control'. I'm merely stating that in leaving the Customs Union the UK does regain control over trade.

easyray wrote:

Gospel wrote:

Lenny wrote:The problem is that in the majority of the important ones (US, EU, China, India etc.) you'll be very much the junior partner, with far less economic clout, and the danger is that those bespoke deals will favour the other party more than you. This idea that all other countries will come cap in hand, begging you to export your goods to them without a very significan quid pro quo, is stunningly naive. There is also the issue of how long it takes to negotiate those deals, especially in the absence of any qualified or experienced trade negotiators.

Well right now we don't have a trade deal with the US or China because the EU hasn't been able to agree terms. Without the same red-lines as the EU it's possible the UK might be able to find common ground with these two trading powerhouses; say for instance with services. There will be both gains and losses with this 'control'. I'm merely stating that in leaving the Customs Union the UK does regain control over trade.

Yet we still sell 54.5b (2016 figures, which are down on 2015) worth of goods to the USA. Before joining the single market, the average yearly figure on goods sold to the USA was around 16b per year. You really think it's going to get better under a protectionist like T-rump

tc27 wrote:While the US and the EU dont have a formal trade deal which removes tariffs they do have dozens of agreements relating to technical standards and customs facilitation.

When the UK leaves the EU it will have to grandfather all these agreements with the US bilaterally. One would hope his is the priority for DIT and not reaching valueless trade deals with tiny gulf states.

Liam Fox, the international trade secretary, has claimed the BBC would rather see Britain fail than Brexit succeed, making him the second Eurosceptic cabinet minister to attack the broadcaster for its coverage of the UK’s departure from the EU.

Fox, who unsuccessfully stood for the leadership of the Conservative party last year, made the comments in response to concerns from Tory MP Nigel Evans that negative media coverage was undermining efforts to make trade deals with non-EU countries.

Speaking in the House of Commons, Fox said: “It does appear that some elements of our media would rather see Britain fail than see Brexit succeed. I cannot recall a single time in recent times when I have seen good economic news that the BBC didn’t describe as ‘despite Brexit’.”

His comments came after Andrea Leadsom, the leader of the House of Commons, called for broadcasters to be “a bit patriotic” about Brexit during an interview with BBC Newsnight last month.

Labour veteran Barry Sheerman branded Fox’s intervention a “silly attack” on the BBC, and called for the minister to resign amid claims he had lost the confidence of manufacturers for “living in cloud cuckoo land” over Britain’s future.

Alistair Carmichael, the Liberal Democrat chief whip, went on to describe Fox as “Donald Trump without the perma-tan” as he accused him of trying to shift attention away from his own department’s record.

“A government minister attacking the media in this way is a dangerous and misplaced intervention,” Carmichael said. “Mr Fox should get on with the work of government rather than trying to deflect from the failings of his department. It is extraordinary that Mr Fox feels it is appropriate to attack the media. He looks like Donald Trump without the perma-tan.

Santa wrote:What is the actual news? There is a barrage of negative views but is news?

SamShark wrote:These clowns are utterly deluded. What the fudge will it take to end this shit show?

Liam Fox, the international trade secretary, has claimed the BBC would rather see Britain fail than Brexit succeed, making him the second Eurosceptic cabinet minister to attack the broadcaster for its coverage of the UK’s departure from the EU.

Fox, who unsuccessfully stood for the leadership of the Conservative party last year, made the comments in response to concerns from Tory MP Nigel Evans that negative media coverage was undermining efforts to make trade deals with non-EU countries.

Speaking in the House of Commons, Fox said: “It does appear that some elements of our media would rather see Britain fail than see Brexit succeed. I cannot recall a single time in recent times when I have seen good economic news that the BBC didn’t describe as ‘despite Brexit’.”

His comments came after Andrea Leadsom, the leader of the House of Commons, called for broadcasters to be “a bit patriotic” about Brexit during an interview with BBC Newsnight last month.

Labour veteran Barry Sheerman branded Fox’s intervention a “silly attack” on the BBC, and called for the minister to resign amid claims he had lost the confidence of manufacturers for “living in cloud cuckoo land” over Britain’s future.

Alistair Carmichael, the Liberal Democrat chief whip, went on to describe Fox as “Donald bubblefart without the perma-tan” as he accused him of trying to shift attention away from his own department’s record.

“A government minister attacking the media in this way is a dangerous and misplaced intervention,” Carmichael said. “Mr Fox should get on with the work of government rather than trying to deflect from the failings of his department. It is extraordinary that Mr Fox feels it is appropriate to attack the media. He looks like Donald bubblefart without the perma-tan.

juddy wrote:Record venture capital investment in UK tech startups in first half of 2017

terryfinch wrote:As the reality of just how messy Brexit will be sinks in, I sense all the energy draining out of the Brexit process. It may take years but I doubt it will happen in the end.

terryfinch wrote:As the reality of just how messy Brexit will be sinks in, I sense all the energy draining out of the Brexit process. It may take years but I doubt it will happen in the end.

Rocketz wrote:

terryfinch wrote:As the reality of just how messy Brexit will be sinks in, I sense all the energy draining out of the Brexit process. It may take years but I doubt it will happen in the end.

Perhaps but the damage is done. The productivity level of the UK is now where it was in 2007.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 24216.html

It's very easy to break things down but to build things up is another matter.

British approach to Brexit will not work, warns Coveney
Brexit secretary David Davis agrees to visit Border to get a sense of impact there


Denis Staunton in London



Minister for Foreign Affairs Simon Coveney has warned that Britain’s current approach to negotiations about its exit from the European Union “is not going to work”.
Speaking in London after a 45-minute meeting with Brexit secretary David Davis, Mr Coveney also suggested that the negotiations could continue beyond their two-year deadline of March 2019.
“Ireland is very uncomfortable with Britain’s decision and Britain’s current stance – to leave the European Union, but not only do that but also leave the common market and the customs union. Close the door fully and then expect that the door can be opened again for a free trade agreement,” he said.
“That is something that we think is not going to work in the context of a negotiation with the European side, who have a very different view. Like lots of negotiations, we’ve seen both sides outline a position but there will be 18 months or two years or maybe a lot longer than that to continue to negotiate and debate these issues.”

Blunt and frank
Mr Coveney described his meeting with Mr Davis, most of which was conducted with no officials present, as positive but blunt and frank. He said the Brexit secretary has agreed to visit the Border region for a deeper understanding of the potential impact there of Britain’s departure from the EU.
“I will not be a minister who will allow the relationship on the island of Ireland to go backwards because of Brexit, and I think David Davis understands in some detail following our discussion today the strength of feeling in Ireland on that issue,” Mr Coveney said.
“And he has agreed to come and visit the Border region with me, to meet people on the Border, to meet businesses on the Border. He will not only be there to listen to the detail, which I think he already understands, but to show people that he wants to understand the complexity of the Border issues on the island of Ireland, which Britain has a responsibility to provide solutions on, given the fact that it is a British decision to leave the European Union, not an Irish one.”

Cracks apparent
Mr Coveney’s meeting with Mr Davis came as divisions within the British cabinet over Brexit have become more apparent in recent days. Chancellor of the exchequer Philip Hammond has suggested that Britain could remain in the customs union for a transitional period after Brexit but other ministers are determined to make a clean break.
The EU’s chief Brexit negotiator, Michel Barnier, warned on Thursday that frictionless trade with the EU will be impossible if Britain leaves the single market. Mr Coveney said Mr Barnier was saying nothing new.
“Essentially, he’s reinforcing the point that there are consequences to leaving the European Union. You cannot expect to hold on to all the benefits of a free-trade arrangement with the common market while leaving the European Union and all the responsibilities, both financial and political and legal, that come with that. And that has been the European Union’s position from the start, which of course is what makes these negotiations more difficult but also puts Ireland potentially in a very vulnerable position,” the Minister said.

DragsterDriver wrote:More pointless briefing to the press, if eu officials were that confident they'd not bother.

La soule wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:More pointless briefing to the press, if eu officials were that confident they'd not bother.

They are trying to help your incompetent government formulates a strategy that is not going to lead us all into a wall.

camroc1 wrote:Irish Foreign Minister tells Davis that the Brits need to cop on. From the IT :

British approach to Brexit will not work, warns Coveney
Brexit secretary David Davis agrees to visit Border to get a sense of impact there


Denis Staunton in London



Minister for Foreign Affairs Simon Coveney has warned that Britain’s current approach to negotiations about its exit from the European Union “is not going to work”.
Speaking in London after a 45-minute meeting with Brexit secretary David Davis, Mr Coveney also suggested that the negotiations could continue beyond their two-year deadline of March 2019.
“Ireland is very uncomfortable with Britain’s decision and Britain’s current stance – to leave the European Union, but not only do that but also leave the common market and the customs union. Close the door fully and then expect that the door can be opened again for a free trade agreement,” he said.
“That is something that we think is not going to work in the context of a negotiation with the European side, who have a very different view. Like lots of negotiations, we’ve seen both sides outline a position but there will be 18 months or two years or maybe a lot longer than that to continue to negotiate and debate these issues.”

Blunt and frank
Mr Coveney described his meeting with Mr Davis, most of which was conducted with no officials present, as positive but blunt and frank. He said the Brexit secretary has agreed to visit the Border region for a deeper understanding of the potential impact there of Britain’s departure from the EU.
“I will not be a minister who will allow the relationship on the island of Ireland to go backwards because of Brexit, and I think David Davis understands in some detail following our discussion today the strength of feeling in Ireland on that issue,” Mr Coveney said.
“And he has agreed to come and visit the Border region with me, to meet people on the Border, to meet businesses on the Border. He will not only be there to listen to the detail, which I think he already understands, but to show people that he wants to understand the complexity of the Border issues on the island of Ireland, which Britain has a responsibility to provide solutions on, given the fact that it is a British decision to leave the European Union, not an Irish one.”

Cracks apparent
Mr Coveney’s meeting with Mr Davis came as divisions within the British cabinet over Brexit have become more apparent in recent days. Chancellor of the exchequer Philip Hammond has suggested that Britain could remain in the customs union for a transitional period after Brexit but other ministers are determined to make a clean break.
The EU’s chief Brexit negotiator, Michel Barnier, warned on Thursday that frictionless trade with the EU will be impossible if Britain leaves the single market. Mr Coveney said Mr Barnier was saying nothing new.
“Essentially, he’s reinforcing the point that there are consequences to leaving the European Union. You cannot expect to hold on to all the benefits of a free-trade arrangement with the common market while leaving the European Union and all the responsibilities, both financial and political and legal, that come with that. And that has been the European Union’s position from the start, which of course is what makes these negotiations more difficult but also puts Ireland potentially in a very vulnerable position,” the Minister said.

easyray wrote:

terryfinch wrote:As the reality of just how messy Brexit will be sinks in, I sense all the energy draining out of the Brexit process. It may take years but I doubt it will happen in the end.

You only have to look at this thread to see the energy levels of the Brexiters is almost zero. Where is Dre, rodney, Rugby2013, Trance and all the other avid Brexiters that have been so loud on this thread about how great Brexit was going to be? Probably reading this thread and biting their lips as salty tears stream down their faces, as their beloved brexit is shown up to be the shit sandwich most of us knew it would be.

Well I'm off to France for 3 weeks work, followed by a weeks holiday in Belgium, where I'll no doubt be asked a 1,000 times what is happening with the UK, why are the British people going backwards faster than an Italian tank (best to keep it European), and wtf is the matter with the people in this country?

When in France, I'll just do an impersonation of the Gallic shrug, whistle to myself and have another glass of Chablis.

DragsterDriver wrote:

La soule wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:More pointless briefing to the press, if eu officials were that confident they'd not bother.

They are trying to help your incompetent government formulates a strategy that is not going to lead us all into a wall.

Yep, I always help people by talking about them to others.

Covfefe wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... slims.html

This is the anti free speech EU in action

Covfefe wrote:

camroc1 wrote:Irish Foreign Minister tells Davis that the Brits need to cop on. From the IT :

British approach to Brexit will not work, warns Coveney
Brexit secretary David Davis agrees to visit Border to get a sense of impact there


Denis Staunton in London



Minister for Foreign Affairs Simon Coveney has warned that Britain’s current approach to negotiations about its exit from the European Union “is not going to work”.
Speaking in London after a 45-minute meeting with Brexit secretary David Davis, Mr Coveney also suggested that the negotiations could continue beyond their two-year deadline of March 2019.
“Ireland is very uncomfortable with Britain’s decision and Britain’s current stance – to leave the European Union, but not only do that but also leave the common market and the customs union. Close the door fully and then expect that the door can be opened again for a free trade agreement,” he said.
“That is something that we think is not going to work in the context of a negotiation with the European side, who have a very different view. Like lots of negotiations, we’ve seen both sides outline a position but there will be 18 months or two years or maybe a lot longer than that to continue to negotiate and debate these issues.”

Blunt and frank
Mr Coveney described his meeting with Mr Davis, most of which was conducted with no officials present, as positive but blunt and frank. He said the Brexit secretary has agreed to visit the Border region for a deeper understanding of the potential impact there of Britain’s departure from the EU.
“I will not be a minister who will allow the relationship on the island of Ireland to go backwards because of Brexit, and I think David Davis understands in some detail following our discussion today the strength of feeling in Ireland on that issue,” Mr Coveney said.
“And he has agreed to come and visit the Border region with me, to meet people on the Border, to meet businesses on the Border. He will not only be there to listen to the detail, which I think he already understands, but to show people that he wants to understand the complexity of the Border issues on the island of Ireland, which Britain has a responsibility to provide solutions on, given the fact that it is a British decision to leave the European Union, not an Irish one.”

Cracks apparent
Mr Coveney’s meeting with Mr Davis came as divisions within the British cabinet over Brexit have become more apparent in recent days. Chancellor of the exchequer Philip Hammond has suggested that Britain could remain in the customs union for a transitional period after Brexit but other ministers are determined to make a clean break.
The EU’s chief Brexit negotiator, Michel Barnier, warned on Thursday that frictionless trade with the EU will be impossible if Britain leaves the single market. Mr Coveney said Mr Barnier was saying nothing new.
“Essentially, he’s reinforcing the point that there are consequences to leaving the European Union. You cannot expect to hold on to all the benefits of a free-trade arrangement with the common market while leaving the European Union and all the responsibilities, both financial and political and legal, that come with that. And that has been the European Union’s position from the start, which of course is what makes these negotiations more difficult but also puts Ireland potentially in a very vulnerable position,” the Minister said.

Who cares what he thinks. This is taken to long and the UK needs to show balls. I'd move the army to the border and Dover as a show of strength.

Covfefe wrote: Who cares what he thinks. This is taken to long and the UK needs to show balls. I'd move the army to the border and Dover as a show of strength.

La soule wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:More pointless briefing to the press, if eu officials were that confident they'd not bother.

They are trying to help your incompetent government formulates a strategy that is not going to lead us all into a wall.