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Whether you can or can't actually vote IRL, In, or Out
In 60%  60%  [ 248 ]
Out 40%  40%  [ 167 ]
Total votes : 415
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:21 pm 
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Revolution is not an event. It is a process. So the zealous revolutionary is ever vigilant against backsliding and ideological deviation. For some, the battle never ends.

Brexiteers’ fear of counter-revolution is now stronger in the Conservative party than actual opposition to Brexit – and more disruptive. Only a tiny number of Tory MPs call the whole thing a folly to its face. The overwhelming majority accept the referendum result and expect EU membership to expire in March 2019.

And still discord convulses the government. That is because the true schism is not between pro-Europeans and sceptics but between incompatible theories of Brexit. It is between those who see it as a job to be done within the parameters of normal politics, and those who see it as a revolution in which the old politics should perish.

People who campaigned on the leave side of the referendum find themselves on different sides of this line. The tension was crisply illustrated in an exchange between David Davis and Jacob Rees-Mogg at a parliamentary committee hearing a couple of weeks ago. Rees-Mogg pressed the Brexit secretary to explain the difference between a transition that looked like EU membership and EU membership itself. Davis replied that full EU members could not strike independent trade deals, whereas the government saw that freedom as a condition of transition.


Rees-Mogg then wanted to know why the UK didn’t just “get on with it”. Why not ignore the terms of EU membership? By waiting for technical agreement, were we not acting as “lackeys” of the EU? Davis’s reply is one of the most revealing Brexit statements made by a cabinet minister. “No,” he said. “We are acting as a law-abiding country.”

Davis harbours no closet ardour for Brussels. The difference between his concept of leaving and that of his backbench inquisitor lies in wanting it to be done carefully, in accordance with existing treaties. For Rees-Mogg and his acolytes that is the cowardly spirit of remain. For them, it is not the security of jobs or Britain’s international reputation that matters, but the safety of the revolution from its hidden enemies.

The ultras will not be satisfied with Brexit at the moment when the UK legally ceases to be an EU member. They long for the day when Britain’s relationship with the EU is so completely transformed, the bridges so charred and ruined, that the very memory of membership feels remote. That is why they are so very incensed by suggestions that the UK might form any kind of customs union with the EU. It isn’t just independent trade policy, but the spiritual purity of the project that hangs in the balance. Every thread must be cut.


That pitch of radicalism is hard to sustain inside the cabinet. Ideological Brexiteers have been chastened by exposure to the technical challenges lurking in their ministerial red boxes. Davis is not the only one to have been on a journey. Liam Fox and Michael Gove acquiesced without fuss to all the compromises made by Theresa May to complete the first phase of negotiations in December. It is said around Whitehall that even the most giddy and cavalier ministerial leavers sobered up when they grasped the facts of the Irish border problem. Then they stopped agitating for harder, faster rupture.

Boris Johnson is still capable of mischief but his restlessness stems from frustrated ambition, not impatience for a more puritan Brexit. Tory guardians of the revolution know that the foreign secretary’s hostility to the EU in 2016 was synthetic. They despise him for that lack of principle, while gratefully receiving any help he lends them as part of his perpetual leadership campaign. Johnson is so wrapped up in vanity and the myth of his own intelligence, he can’t see that he is the useful idiot to a cause other than his own.

In ministerial offices, the idea of Brexit collides with the idea of responsible government. But on the backbenches, that dilemma is denied and the thing that diplomats and officials call reality is recast as conspiracy. The nefarious masterminds of counter-revolution are Olly Robbins, May’s chief Brexit adviser, and Sir Jeremy Heywood, head of the civil service. Neither man shows the slightest intention of keeping Britain in the EU. Their sin is trying to organise Brexit in a way that allows Britain’s economic and political institutions to continue functioning properly.

That appears to be May’s preference too, but she lacks the courage to say so in such bald terms. So where does power lie? May looks like the head of a Soviet republic, formally occupying the highest office, yet taking ideological direction from a superior authority in the party. Or, even more bizarrely, Tory politics resembles revolution on the Iranian model, where the elected political leader is subordinate to a supreme spiritual leader, a role performed in this analogy by Rees-Mogg. For all of May’s obvious commitment to EU withdrawal, the Brexit ayatollahs don’t trust her to do it with the correct fundamentalist spirit. And they call the shots.

The travesty is that this is happening in the name of democracy, to honour the sacred referendum result. The mandate from 2016 was to leave the EU, not to scorch the earth on which British governments have stood for a generation. The leave campaign promised many things, but obedience to the scriptures of Rees-Moggery was not among them. The battle now being waged for control of the Tory party is an offshoot of the referendum, but with a crucial difference. It is a campaign for power without even a pretence of wanting accountability. That is the point in every revolution where democracy gets left behind.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:58 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
Rinkals wrote:
Gospel wrote:
bimboman wrote:
I'll,acknowledge the reality that is the miracle of British policing, and the amazingly low incidents of tragic errors they make, especially with their armed units.

Good lads too, I used to go fly fishing with a few. :thumbup:

I played cricket against a few, too.

At the post-match drinks, I remember a copper regaling us with a story about how he fitted up a drug dealer. When I questioned him about this he said "Look, we only fit up people who are guilty, obviously." Obviously.

Good lads.



In the UK ?

Yes.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:51 am 
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camroc1 wrote:
Mick Mannock wrote:
Insane_Homer wrote:
Mick Mannock wrote:
There is no shoot to kill policy


Image

This guy might disagree with you.


There is no shoot to kill policy.

I suppose you could call it the 'police, judge and jury policy' ?

Image


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:07 am 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
Is there no angle the Brit haters won’t try?!


I can feel you are upset again.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:15 am 
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Shoot to kill, crooked police, the IRA, Brazilian electrician, etc.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:46 am 
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They are evil DD. Just gloating at the demise of Blighty.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:49 am 
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bimboman wrote:
camroc1 wrote:
Mick Mannock wrote:
Insane_Homer wrote:
Mick Mannock wrote:
There is no shoot to kill policy


Image

This guy might disagree with you.


There is no shoot to kill policy.

I suppose you could call it the 'police, judge and jury policy' ?


Really? Rather than tragic error ?


He was executed, shot 8 times, 7 times in the head after he'd already been restrained.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:28 am 
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Being lectured on police law and order by a chicken runner :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:32 am 
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Does it make his point less valid?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:34 am 
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La soule wrote:
They are evil DD. Just gloating at the demise of Blighty.


If I had this obsession with Belgium I’d consider it unhealthy.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:44 am 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
La soule wrote:
They are evil DD. Just gloating at the demise of Blighty.


If I had this obsession with Belgium I’d consider it unhealthy.



Most of your country has.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:16 am 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
La soule wrote:
They are evil DD. Just gloating at the demise of Blighty.


If I had this obsession with Belgium I’d consider it unhealthy.


It’s not like your country went to a war over it or anything.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:45 am 
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La soule wrote:
Does it make his point less valid?



His point is silly. There was a tragic mistake made in communication.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:56 am 
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Blackrock Bullet wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
La soule wrote:
They are evil DD. Just gloating at the demise of Blighty.


If I had this obsession with Belgium I’d consider it unhealthy.


It’s not like your country went to a war over it or anything.

You want to discuss the origins of WWI?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:00 am 
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So tomorrow May calls the electorate a bunch of cünts and is finally removed to the asylum where she will surely spend her last days. Who replaces her? Who do you fine posters want to see as the PM, who can win the next GE (Obviously a trick question, anyone can win the GE because not enough people would vote fro Corbyn.) and see us right with Brexit?


Last edited by bessantj on Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:01 am 
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bimboman wrote:
La soule wrote:
Does it make his point less valid?



His point is silly. There was a tragic mistake made in communication.


I dont care either way but:

Quote:
shot 8 times, 7 times in the head after he'd already been restrained.


If that's true, then it would make your point a bit silly too, no?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:04 am 
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Mick Mannock wrote:
Blackrock Bullet wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
La soule wrote:
They are evil DD. Just gloating at the demise of Blighty.


If I had this obsession with Belgium I’d consider it unhealthy.


It’s not like your country went to a war over it or anything.

You want to discuss the origins of WWI?


I’m taking the piss you melt.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:07 am 
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Would it be childish to point out that it was Blackrock Bullet's country too?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:07 am 
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Blackrock Bullet wrote:
Mick Mannock wrote:
Blackrock Bullet wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
La soule wrote:
They are evil DD. Just gloating at the demise of Blighty.


If I had this obsession with Belgium I’d consider it unhealthy.


It’s not like your country went to a war over it or anything.

You want to discuss the origins of WWI?


I’m taking the piss you melt.


Oh well done then


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:09 am 
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Deary me, an already dour and paranoid individual has managed to get even worse with all this Brexit stuff.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:21 am 
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Mick Mannock wrote:
Blackrock Bullet wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
La soule wrote:
They are evil DD. Just gloating at the demise of Blighty.


If I had this obsession with Belgium I’d consider it unhealthy.


It’s not like your country went to a war over it or anything.

You want to discuss the origins of WWI?

Image

Image


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:24 am 
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bimboman wrote:
La soule wrote:
Does it make his point less valid?



His point is silly. There was a tragic mistake made in communication.


the Met team lost track of the suspect they were awaiting to emerge from a block of flats and were not in a position to say yea or nay as to whether Menezes was an innocent man or their suspect. In spite of not knowing whether de Menezes was you or me or our son or on the other hand a terror suspect, the Met eliminated him. It was a f**king big mistake, as mistakes go and a mistake which the Met chose to risk.

And don't get me started about how this was all presented in the aftermath. And seeing we're talking about Spain, the IPCC acted more like teh Met boys' mum than the Spanish Inquisition.

The Met were thrust into the most unenviable of tasks but there was an issue of when does a mistake become gross negligence and therefore manslaughter and also of appalling standards (hardly unique to the British) of the Met's handling of evidence - that carries on today, in plain sight finally, in the cases of the rape defendants.

No cause for complacency.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:29 am 
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La soule wrote:
bimboman wrote:
La soule wrote:
Does it make his point less valid?



His point is silly. There was a tragic mistake made in communication.


I dont care either way but:

Quote:
shot 8 times, 7 times in the head after he'd already been restrained.


If that's true, then it would make your point a bit silly too, no?



Well no, they believed he was a suicide bomber.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:33 am 
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bimboman wrote:
La soule wrote:
bimboman wrote:
La soule wrote:
Does it make his point less valid?



His point is silly. There was a tragic mistake made in communication.


I dont care either way but:

Quote:
shot 8 times, 7 times in the head after he'd already been restrained.


If that's true, then it would make your point a bit silly too, no?



Well no, they believed he was a suicide bomber.

Generally the Police hand over the trial and sentencing, if found guilty, bit to a judge and jury though, don't they ?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:36 am 
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bimboman wrote:
Well no, they believed he was a suicide bomber.

So you're saying they do have a valid shoot to kill policy in this situation?

bimboman wrote:
Being lectured on police law and order by a chicken runner :lol:


Great rebuttal, so I assume I won?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:46 am 
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SamShark wrote:
Revolution is not an event. It is a process. So the zealous revolutionary is ever vigilant against backsliding and ideological deviation. For some, the battle never ends.

Theres a fair bit to quibble with in that article.

The Davis-Mogg juxtaposition is a false dichotomy for I can recall Davis advocating the exact same thing as Mogg did, with the words "what are they going to do, kick us out?". He has changed his stance for some reason and I suspect it's political rather than legal or moral. Having repeatedly promised one Davis badly wants a deal whereas Mogg would like one, but is also genuinely prepared to walk away.

Rejection of the Customs Union isn't about cutting ideological threads, it's about preventing the protectionist control the EU would exert on UK trade policy post-Brexit. Britain would be forced to accept whatever they put upon us, meaning we'd be back where we started in terms of trade.

He is spot on about Boris though, who as welcome as he has been to Leave, is a duplicitous character.
Quote:
Boris Johnson is still capable of mischief but his restlessness stems from frustrated ambition, not impatience for a more puritan Brexit. Tory guardians of the revolution know that the foreign secretary’s hostility to the EU in 2016 was synthetic. They despise him for that lack of principle, while gratefully receiving any help he lends them as part of his perpetual leadership campaign. Johnson is so wrapped up in vanity and the myth of his own intelligence, he can’t see that he is the useful idiot to a cause other than his own.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:53 pm 
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camroc1 wrote:
bimboman wrote:
La soule wrote:
bimboman wrote:
La soule wrote:
Does it make his point less valid?



His point is silly. There was a tragic mistake made in communication.


I dont care either way but:

Quote:
shot 8 times, 7 times in the head after he'd already been restrained.


If that's true, then it would make your point a bit silly too, no?



Well no, they believed he was a suicide bomber.

Generally the Police hand over the trial and sentencing, if found guilty, bit to a judge and jury though, don't they ?



They might have found that difficult post an explosion.

Are you saying the police acted illegally diri the London Bridge incident for example ?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:55 pm 
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Insane_Homer wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Well no, they believed he was a suicide bomber.

So you're saying they do have a valid shoot to kill policy in this situation?

bimboman wrote:
Being lectured on police law and order by a chicken runner :lol:


Great rebuttal, so I assume I won?



"Shoot to kill" isn't what you think it is. All police shootings are to stop or kill there isn't a shoot to wound policy.

I believe the head shot is fine when there's a threat of a detonation. I'm assuming you'd prefer an explosion first ?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:43 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
La soule wrote:
bimboman wrote:
La soule wrote:
Does it make his point less valid?



His point is silly. There was a tragic mistake made in communication.


I dont care either way but:

Quote:
shot 8 times, 7 times in the head after he'd already been restrained.


If that's true, then it would make your point a bit silly too, no?



Well no, they believed he was possibly a suicide bomber.


sorted for you.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:29 pm 
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Rugby2023 wrote:
I can recall Davis advocating the exact same thing as Mogg did, with the words "what are they going to do, kick us out?". He has changed his stance for some reason and I suspect it's political rather than legal or moral. Having repeatedly promised one Davis badly wants a deal whereas Mogg would like one, but is also genuinely prepared to walk away.

Rejection of the Customs Union isn't about cutting ideological threads, it's about preventing the protectionist control the EU would exert on UK trade policy post-Brexit. Britain would be forced to accept whatever they put upon us, meaning we'd be back where we started in terms of trade.


I suspect it is because even someone as dense and ideologically driven as Davis is, has finally realised just how stupid this whole brexshit farce is. As for rejection of the custom union, I still believe it is more to do with turning the UK into the low tax/low wage Singapore style economy of Europe. I for one do not want unregulated food or goods foisted on me or my children.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:37 pm 
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Never mind Singapore, some would appear content with the protection offered by Indian regulations.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:41 pm 
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The Man Without Fear wrote:
Never mind Singapore, some would appear content with the protection offered by Indian regulations.

I can see the Tories being all for a class of 'untouchables' alright !


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:29 pm 
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I suspect that - as men of the people - the likes of Boris, Rees-Mogg, Iain Duncan Smith, Liam Fox and John Redwood only want what's best for us.

I totally trust them to keep a laser like focus on the public interest.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:06 pm 
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Quote:
I suspect it is because even someone as dense and ideologically driven as Davis is, has finally realised just how stupid this whole brexshit farce is. As for rejection of the custom union, I still believe it is more to do with turning the UK into the low tax/low wage Singapore style economy of Europe. I for one do not want unregulated food or goods foisted on me or my children



It's like the horse meat and recent Egg scandals happened somewhere other than Europe.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:17 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
Quote:
I suspect it is because even someone as dense and ideologically driven as Davis is, has finally realised just how stupid this whole brexshit farce is. As for rejection of the custom union, I still believe it is more to do with turning the UK into the low tax/low wage Singapore style economy of Europe. I for one do not want unregulated food or goods foisted on me or my children



It's like the horse meat and recent Egg scandals happened somewhere other than Europe.

What's that got to do with the price of anti-biotic stuffed chlorinated chicken ?

In the two cases you mention above, regulations were clearly broken, and certainly in the case of the horsemeat scandal, the owner of the DUtch factory where the 'mixing' took place was prosecuted and found guilty (I don't know about the egg scandal and can't be arsed to google).

In the case of the UK relaxing regulations to promote trade, the aforementioned anti biotic stuffed chlorinated chicken will be legal in the UK, as will the steroid pumped beef, and pork with things done to it you really don't want to know about, but it definitely won't be free range, old breed pork.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:32 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
Quote:
I suspect it is because even someone as dense and ideologically driven as Davis is, has finally realised just how stupid this whole brexshit farce is. As for rejection of the custom union, I still believe it is more to do with turning the UK into the low tax/low wage Singapore style economy of Europe. I for one do not want unregulated food or goods foisted on me or my children



It's like the horse meat and recent Egg scandals happened somewhere other than Europe.


Foot & Mouth, BSE, Salmonella in Eggs ..... do you want to blame the EU for those too ?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:34 pm 
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SamShark wrote:
I suspect that - as men of the people - the likes of Boris, Rees-Mogg, Iain Duncan Smith, Liam Fox and John Redwood only want what's best for us.

I totally trust them to keep a laser like focus on the public interest.

So who is to be trusted then? The likes of Clegg who claimed the EU Army was a "dangerous fantasy"? Who makes it through the SamShark credibility filter?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:42 pm 
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fishfoodie wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Quote:
I suspect it is because even someone as dense and ideologically driven as Davis is, has finally realised just how stupid this whole brexshit farce is. As for rejection of the custom union, I still believe it is more to do with turning the UK into the low tax/low wage Singapore style economy of Europe. I for one do not want unregulated food or goods foisted on me or my children



It's like the horse meat and recent Egg scandals happened somewhere other than Europe.


Foot & Mouth, BSE, Salmonella in Eggs ..... do you want to blame the EU for those too ?

Speaking of salmonella, the latest food scandal is salmonella in baby milk formula courtesy of French company Lactalis.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:06 am 
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fishfoodie wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Quote:
I suspect it is because even someone as dense and ideologically driven as Davis is, has finally realised just how stupid this whole brexshit farce is. As for rejection of the custom union, I still believe it is more to do with turning the UK into the low tax/low wage Singapore style economy of Europe. I for one do not want unregulated food or goods foisted on me or my children



It's like the horse meat and recent Egg scandals happened somewhere other than Europe.


Foot & Mouth, BSE, Salmonella in Eggs ..... do you want to blame the EU for those too ?


Don't be silly, Britain was not an EU country then. Well we were, but it was the EU that made us do it.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:10 am 
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fishfoodie wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Quote:
I suspect it is because even someone as dense and ideologically driven as Davis is, has finally realised just how stupid this whole brexshit farce is. As for rejection of the custom union, I still believe it is more to do with turning the UK into the low tax/low wage Singapore style economy of Europe. I for one do not want unregulated food or goods foisted on me or my children



It's like the horse meat and recent Egg scandals happened somewhere other than Europe.


Foot & Mouth, BSE, Salmonella in Eggs ..... do you want to blame the EU for those too ?



Who's blamed anyone, I'll,just add them to the list of unregulated food being foisted within the EU.


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