Planet Rugby Forum

SamShark wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:

SamShark wrote:No deal or a shitty deal should never be all we're left with and the reason it's being pitched as the only possibly trajectory now is that ideologues on both sides are steering the ship.

What deal would you accept then Sam? The EU aren’t negotiating in good faith, they will screw the U.K. as best they can. To expect any less is a bit daft.

I think we're in agreement there.

I'm afraid it's a Brexiter argument that the EU will back down and do the easiest ever deal. Remainers knew it would be exceptionally hard to deal with both political and practical realities.

I'd rather not leave the EU, but in the face of reality (reality predicted before the referendum and described as "project fear") I'd suggest dropping some red lines.

If at this stage it's obvious there's complete lack of clarity as to WTF to do, we should ask the public again and they can chose between no deal, "the" deal, and remain. Seems logical to me, though fuly acknowledge that I'm a horrible anti-democratic bastard that just doesn't understand real people and that Brexit means Brexit.

The hardline brexiters kinda remind me of Mel Gibson in lethal weapon holding the gun to his own head convincing them he’s crazy enough to pull the trigger

But realistically the Eu has to believe we would scorch the earth rather than accept an eternal rogering, and knowing the British psyche they probably believe we’re daft enough. At this point it’s threat and counter threat with the EU going harder and probably exhausting their supply.
19 mile queues at Dover
Planes grounded
Food shortages
Airbus
Banking jobs
Galileo
Security
Etc

I haven’t got an exhaustive list but I think so far the U.K. has said-

We’ll shoot ourselves in the foot
You can’t have your windfall
Well fück everybody on our way down

clementinfrance wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:

clementinfrance wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:The two things that leap out at me are-

I’d love to be a fruit picker just don’t think the money is high enough for my outgoings.

It seems to say Airbus *could* pull out in the event of a hard brexit? As talks ramp up I would imagine everything will become weaponised. Tbf it will be hard for them when all of our planes are grounded /cammy.

Actually- where is cammy with this news? Holiday? Dead? I’d have thought he’d be pulling himself inside out.

Really it's f**kin physically tough, monotonous and eventually tedious as hell...

I suspect you've never worked in a field or orchard.

I’m about to barrow 20 tonnes of hardcore around the back of a house in the baking heat. Being the internet I expect you’ll come back that you’re about to perform a self circumcision with a rusty pen knife.

I'm aware you're a builder.

I'd pick your job, which does vary a little from day to day or week to week over fruit picking. No contest.

Be there at 8:30 to meet the lorries manual work is manual work, stick my headphones in and I’m good to go. Less mental stress for me picking fruit.

Once my daughter is older and leaves home I quite fancy bumbling around Europe picking melons or whatever. Assuming the Eu will give me a work permit....

SamShark wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:

SamShark wrote:No deal or a shitty deal should never be all we're left with and the reason it's being pitched as the only possibly trajectory now is that ideologues on both sides are steering the ship.

What deal would you accept then Sam? The EU aren’t negotiating in good faith, they will screw the U.K. as best they can. To expect any less is a bit daft.

I think we're in agreement there.

I'm afraid it's a Brexiter argument that the EU will back down and do the easiest ever deal. Remainers knew it would be exceptionally hard to deal with both political and practical realities.

I'd rather not leave the EU, but in the face of reality (reality predicted before the referendum and described as "project fear") I'd suggest dropping some red lines.

If at this stage it's obvious there's complete lack of clarity as to WTF to do, we should ask the public again and they can chose between no deal, "the" deal, and remain. Seems logical to me, though fully acknowledge that I'm a horrible anti-democratic bastard that just doesn't understand real people and that Brexit means Brexit.

Red lines ? Like leaving the CU or leaving the single market ? Red lines like leaving the EU.

i reckon "no deal" could win that choice though. Is vote for it to f uck remainers over for sure.

Rugby2023 wrote:

SamShark wrote:Nobody doubts this - of course they are trying to influence. Why is it b/s to fear either no deal at all or a "deal" which throws up loads of admin and barriers to trade/supply?

This sort of thing has to be refuted or calmed with somthing better than "shut it, project fear"

It's not going to happen because if it does the EU don't get their budget money (an automatic crisis), millions of jobs are lost across Europe, thousands of EU businesses hit the wall and given WTO they'd be facing the prospect of high tariffs, when they're already spooked by Trump.

They EU is barely keeping its own show on the road, they're at crisis point right now.

Lolz at Airbus.

"The company is set to abandon plans to build aircraft wings in British factories over concerns that EU regulations will no longer apply from March 2019 and uncertainty over customs procedures, instead opting to transfer production to North America, China"

"It said leaving the single market, and the customs union and the European Court of Justice would heavily disrupt its supply chain."

Lolz

So US /China are in the customs union/single market and under the ECJ.


"Katherine Bennett, the senior vice-president for Airbus in the UK, told the BBC Radio 4 Today programme that a three-hour wait on a lorry at Dover “would be a critically bad issue for Airbus”, as would be delaying cargo flights carrying completed wings to Europe."

Lolz, has she ever come across a French port blockade?
Or the fact that French air traffic control disputes cause some thing like 30% of all flight delays in Europe.

Glaston wrote:Lolz at Airbus.

"The company is set to abandon plans to build aircraft wings in British factories over concerns that EU regulations will no longer apply from March 2019 and uncertainty over customs procedures, instead opting to transfer production to North America, China"

"It said leaving the single market, and the customs union and the European Court of Justice would heavily disrupt its supply chain."

Lolz

So US /China are in the customs union/single market and under the ECJ.

, I hadn't noticed that leap in Logic.

I’m hoping Glaston made that up?

DragsterDriver wrote:

SamShark wrote:No deal or a shitty deal should never be all we're left with and the reason it's being pitched as the only possibly trajectory now is that ideologues on both sides are steering the ship.

What deal would you accept then Sam? The EU aren’t negotiating in good faith, they will screw the U.K. as best they can. To expect any less is a bit daft.

This. No deal option is needed in any complex negotiation to achieve a good deal. I don't want us to leave without a deal and only idiots think a no deal scenario won't be damaging to the economy however if EU play hardball and negotiations fail, we need to be prepared to walk away (with adequate preparations for businesses to deal with that scenario).

Glaston wrote:Lolz at Airbus.

"The company is set to abandon plans to build aircraft wings in British factories over concerns that EU regulations will no longer apply from March 2019 and uncertainty over customs procedures, instead opting to transfer production to North America, China"

"It said leaving the single market, and the customs union and the European Court of Justice would heavily disrupt its supply chain."

Lolz

So US /China are in the customs union/single market and under the ECJ.

Not really they are under their own customs regulatory procedures. We will be under unknown customs procedures and regulatory structures. Perhaps without being within EU it becomes lower cost to operate from China and America.

EDIT: airbus doesn't think our Government is capable of sorting itself out.

DragsterDriver wrote:I’m hoping Glaston made that up?

would be a hoot but its from a Guardian article.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... xit-impact

For dramatic effect I did miss out North America, China or elsewhere in the EU but for them to even mention US and China was odd.

Glaston wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:I’m hoping Glaston made that up?

would be a hoot but its from a Guardian article.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... xit-impact

For dramatic effect I did miss out North America, China or elsewhere in the EU but for them to even mention US and China was odd.

they have a plant in Mobile USA and Tianjin China.

Petej wrote:

Glaston wrote:Lolz at Airbus.

"The company is set to abandon plans to build aircraft wings in British factories over concerns that EU regulations will no longer apply from March 2019 and uncertainty over customs procedures, instead opting to transfer production to North America, China"

"It said leaving the single market, and the customs union and the European Court of Justice would heavily disrupt its supply chain."

Lolz

So US /China are in the customs union/single market and under the ECJ.

Not really they are under their own customs regulatory procedures. We will be under unknown customs procedures and regulatory structures. Perhaps without being within EU it becomes lower cost to operate from China and America.

EDIT: airbus doesn't think our Government is capable of sorting itself out.

What ? British customs and law is now Unknown ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42623081

French being French.

They then it appears f ucked it up.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-airb ... SKBN1JF212

bimboman wrote:

Petej wrote:

Glaston wrote:Lolz at Airbus.

"The company is set to abandon plans to build aircraft wings in British factories over concerns that EU regulations will no longer apply from March 2019 and uncertainty over customs procedures, instead opting to transfer production to North America, China"

"It said leaving the single market, and the customs union and the European Court of Justice would heavily disrupt its supply chain."

Lolz

So US /China are in the customs union/single market and under the ECJ.

Not really they are under their own customs regulatory procedures. We will be under unknown customs procedures and regulatory structures. Perhaps without being within EU it becomes lower cost to operate from China and America.

EDIT: airbus doesn't think our Government is capable of sorting itself out.

What ? British customs and law is now Unknown ?

It is at the moment as they don't know what they will be applying. Aerospace is a heavily regulated industry with a no deal brexit UK parts approved under EU bodies become invalid and would need to be re-certified.

Petej wrote:

bimboman wrote:

Petej wrote:

Glaston wrote:Lolz at Airbus.

"The company is set to abandon plans to build aircraft wings in British factories over concerns that EU regulations will no longer apply from March 2019 and uncertainty over customs procedures, instead opting to transfer production to North America, China"

"It said leaving the single market, and the customs union and the European Court of Justice would heavily disrupt its supply chain."

Lolz

So US /China are in the customs union/single market and under the ECJ.

Not really they are under their own customs regulatory procedures. We will be under unknown customs procedures and regulatory structures. Perhaps without being within EU it becomes lower cost to operate from China and America.

EDIT: airbus doesn't think our Government is capable of sorting itself out.

What ? British customs and law is now Unknown ?

It is at the moment as they don't know what they will be applying. Aerospace is a heavily regulated industry with a no deal brexit UK parts approved under EU bodies become invalid and would need to re-certified.

Part approved become invalid ? But they're fine still for China and The US , have a look at the logic you're applying here.

Also the threat to move is nonsense in logistical terms as they can do nothing by next March.

clementinfrance wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:

clementinfrance wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:The two things that leap out at me are-

I’d love to be a fruit picker just don’t think the money is high enough for my outgoings.

It seems to say Airbus *could* pull out in the event of a hard brexit? As talks ramp up I would imagine everything will become weaponised. Tbf it will be hard for them when all of our planes are grounded /cammy.

Actually- where is cammy with this news? Holiday? Dead? I’d have thought he’d be pulling himself inside out.

Really it's f**kin physically tough, monotonous and eventually tedious as hell...

I suspect you've never worked in a field or orchard.

I’m about to barrow 20 tonnes of hardcore around the back of a house in the baking heat. Being the internet I expect you’ll come back that you’re about to perform a self circumcision with a rusty pen knife.

I'm aware you're a builder.

I'd pick your job, which does vary a little from day to day or week to week over fruit picking. No contest.

I think we need to clarify what sort of fruit. Gooseberries, raspberries and things of a similar ilk will get you badly scratched for poor return, strawberries are back breaking (it's one thing to stoop for 10 minutes during a pick your own and quite another to do so for hours, whereas apples and pears really aren't that bad, even if the size of box is initially disheartening

piquant wrote:

clementinfrance wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:

clementinfrance wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:The two things that leap out at me are-

I’d love to be a fruit picker just don’t think the money is high enough for my outgoings.

It seems to say Airbus *could* pull out in the event of a hard brexit? As talks ramp up I would imagine everything will become weaponised. Tbf it will be hard for them when all of our planes are grounded /cammy.

Actually- where is cammy with this news? Holiday? Dead? I’d have thought he’d be pulling himself inside out.

Really it's f**kin physically tough, monotonous and eventually tedious as hell...

I suspect you've never worked in a field or orchard.

I’m about to barrow 20 tonnes of hardcore around the back of a house in the baking heat. Being the internet I expect you’ll come back that you’re about to perform a self circumcision with a rusty pen knife.

I'm aware you're a builder.

I'd pick your job, which does vary a little from day to day or week to week over fruit picking. No contest.

I think we need to clarify what sort of fruit. Gooseberries, raspberries and things of a similar ilk will get you badly scratched for poor return, strawberries are back breaking (it's one thing to stoop for 10 minutes during a pick your own and quite another to do so for hours, whereas apples and pears really aren't that bad, even if the size of box is initially disheartening

I managed to do a single day of apple picking as a student. Ended up earning £1,50 per hour.

The weird thing was that when I went to bed that night and closed my eyes, all I could see were leaves and apples...

You’d get the living wage of £7.50ph- more if you work in price.

Why would the EU stop Airbus wings at the border? It doesn't seem beyond the bounds of common sense to have a prearranged pass for integrated supply lines, subject to occasional audits, does it?

I managed to do a single day of apple picking as a student. Ended up earning £1,50 per hour.

The weird thing was that when I went to bed that night and closed my eyes, all I could see were leaves and apples... [/quote]

I've never encountered rates per bin where that's possible, not even being somewhat lazy and getting a reduced rate for bruising the crop. You found a properly cheap bastard of a farmer

piquant wrote:I managed to do a single day of apple picking as a student. Ended up earning £1,50 per hour.

The weird thing was that when I went to bed that night and closed my eyes, all I could see were leaves and apples...

I've never encountered rates per bin where that's possible, not even being somewhat lazy and getting a reduced rate for bruising the crop. You found a properly cheap bastard of a farmer[/quote]

In Australia I earned some proper good money.

ChipSpike wrote:Why would the EU stop Airbus wings at the border? It doesn't seem beyond the bounds of common sense to have a prearranged pass for integrated supply lines, subject to occasional audits, does it?

It’s a threat, all over the radio news this morning so it’s got a load of people shitting their pants.

Glaston wrote:Lolz at Airbus.

"The company is set to abandon plans to build aircraft wings in British factories over concerns that EU regulations will no longer apply from March 2019 and uncertainty over customs procedures, instead opting to transfer production to North America, China"

"It said leaving the single market, and the customs union and the European Court of Justice would heavily disrupt its supply chain."

Lolz

So US /China are in the customs union/single market and under the ECJ.

You really have no idea what difference the single market makes,

DragsterDriver wrote:

ChipSpike wrote:Why would the EU stop Airbus wings at the border? It doesn't seem beyond the bounds of common sense to have a prearranged pass for integrated supply lines, subject to occasional audits, does it?

It’s a threat, all over the radio news this morning so it’s got a load of people shitting their pants.

Where are they going to get their wings from after March 19? Or do they plan to sell 'add your own choice of wings' airbuses?

piquant wrote:
I've never encountered rates per bin where that's possible, not even being somewhat lazy and getting a reduced rate for bruising the crop. You found a properly cheap bastard of a farmer

Piece work was quite common back in the 90's...

DragsterDriver wrote:

ChipSpike wrote:Why would the EU stop Airbus wings at the border? It doesn't seem beyond the bounds of common sense to have a prearranged pass for integrated supply lines, subject to occasional audits, does it?

It’s a threat, all over the radio news this morning so it’s got a load of people shitting their pants.

Because your part quality validation is invalid as it will not be within an certified regulatory regime and system (the EU currently). The UK with no planning for no deal doesn't have time to put one in place then certify all the suppliers and manufacturers at every level. Same for car industry.

A no deal scenario is terrible for these industries. Any deal where we remain in Easa would be okay but even the most simple must realise that this uncertainty is stopping investment.

Petej wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:

ChipSpike wrote:Why would the EU stop Airbus wings at the border? It doesn't seem beyond the bounds of common sense to have a prearranged pass for integrated supply lines, subject to occasional audits, does it?

It’s a threat, all over the radio news this morning so it’s got a load of people shitting their pants.

Because your part quality validation is invalid as it will not be within an certified regulatory regime and system (the EU currently). The UK with no planning for no deal doesn't have time to put one in place then certify all the suppliers and manufacturers at every level. Same for car industry.

A no deal scenario is terrible for these industries. Any deal where we remain in Easa would be okay but even the most simple must realise that this uncertainty is stopping investment.

So they’ll shut down all Airbus in the U.K.?

Doubt it, the tit for tat fallout would be huge.

Petej wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:

ChipSpike wrote:Why would the EU stop Airbus wings at the border? It doesn't seem beyond the bounds of common sense to have a prearranged pass for integrated supply lines, subject to occasional audits, does it?

It’s a threat, all over the radio news this morning so it’s got a load of people shitting their pants.

Because your part quality validation is invalid as it will not be within an certified regulatory regime and system (the EU currently). The UK with no planning for no deal doesn't have time to put one in place then certify all the suppliers and manufacturers at every level. Same for car industry.

A no deal scenario is terrible for these industries. Any deal where we remain in Easa would be okay but even the most simple must realise that this uncertainty is stopping investment.

What part validation does the us and China use?

Do we stop imports of German cars by deeming the TUV to not meet our new ‘sunlit uplands standard’?

Petej wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:

ChipSpike wrote:Why would the EU stop Airbus wings at the border? It doesn't seem beyond the bounds of common sense to have a prearranged pass for integrated supply lines, subject to occasional audits, does it?

It’s a threat, all over the radio news this morning so it’s got a load of people shitting their pants.

Because your part quality validation is invalid as it will not be within an certified regulatory regime and system (the EU currently). The UK with no planning for no deal doesn't have time to put one in place then certify all the suppliers and manufacturers at every level. Same for car industry.

A no deal scenario is terrible for these industries. Any deal where we remain in Easa would be okay but even the most simple must realise that this uncertainty is stopping investment.

So I repeat, what are the EU going to do on March 19 if there's no deal, stop the wings at the border?

Leinster in London wrote:

Glaston wrote:Lolz at Airbus.

"The company is set to abandon plans to build aircraft wings in British factories over concerns that EU regulations will no longer apply from March 2019 and uncertainty over customs procedures, instead opting to transfer production to North America, China"

"It said leaving the single market, and the customs union and the European Court of Justice would heavily disrupt its supply chain."

Lolz

So US /China are in the customs union/single market and under the ECJ.

You really have no idea what difference the single market makes,

US and China.

bimboman wrote:

Leinster in London wrote:

Glaston wrote:Lolz at Airbus.

"The company is set to abandon plans to build aircraft wings in British factories over concerns that EU regulations will no longer apply from March 2019 and uncertainty over customs procedures, instead opting to transfer production to North America, China"

"It said leaving the single market, and the customs union and the European Court of Justice would heavily disrupt its supply chain."

Lolz

So US /China are in the customs union/single market and under the ECJ.

You really have no idea what difference the single market makes,

US and China.

Off you go, join a single market with them.
Good luck in getting paid from China.

Call me crazy but it's almost as if the EU has agreements for this kind of cross border trade and supply chain arrangements in place with the US and China and the UK doesn't unless it's through the EU which it is leaving....

Amazing intelligent people (and bimbo) pretend to not understand this.

I like haggis wrote:Call me crazy but it's almost as if the EU has agreements for this kind of cross border trade and supply chain arrangements in place with the US and China and the UK doesn't unless it's through the EU which it is leaving....

Amazing intelligent people (and bimbo) pretend to not understand this.

It doesn’t seem a massive leap for the Eu and U.K. to trade, if they can manage it with China?

I like haggis wrote:Call me crazy but it's almost as if the EU has agreements for this kind of cross border trade and supply chain arrangements in place with the US and China and the UK doesn't unless it's through the EU which it is leaving....

Amazing intelligent people (and bimbo) pretend to not understand this.

Indeed, none of those agreements include the free movement of people or ECJ over sight.

DragsterDriver wrote:

I like haggis wrote:Call me crazy but it's almost as if the EU has agreements for this kind of cross border trade and supply chain arrangements in place with the US and China and the UK doesn't unless it's through the EU which it is leaving....

Amazing intelligent people (and bimbo) pretend to not understand this.

It doesn’t seem a massive leap for the Eu and U.K. to trade, if they can manage it with China?

The problem is volume, and time.
The industries under pressure are the JIT models.
China can fit into JIT because the timescales are huge. 6 weeks on the sea, with emergencies being covered by air. Nevertheless, the timescale for air is 12-24 hours from start to finish.

The models that use ferry/tunnel have not yet built in any safety net for queues at the border. These queues will develop irrespective of the particular arrangements that an individual lorry will have made with HMRC/French authority. They'll just be stuck behind the people who have not got arrangements.

I like haggis wrote:Call me crazy but it's almost as if the EU has agreements for this kind of cross border trade and supply chain arrangements in place with the US and China and the UK doesn't unless it's through the EU which it is leaving....

Amazing intelligent people (and bimbo) pretend to not understand this.

And we don't have time to create this before March 2019. Not that we can't create this just that it will be time consuming and expensive and it will be so for companies like airbus and their suppliers as well to implement it. No deal means we don't create arrangements and we crash out.

If we had gone for ceta type arrangements ages ago then we could have done it or we would be fine if we went for a norway efta eea type arrangement.

The idiocy in the lack of a vaguely defined end point beyond total fantasy in the Brexit vote.

"No-deal" is very much off the table. It's an empty threat as the UK Government have made sod all preparation for such an outcome. We will take whatever we are given which will upset just about everyone. And this thread will one day been even longer than the Irish Rugby one.

John Longworth, former DG of British Chambers of Commerce:

Responding to the Airbus announcement that it could leave the UK if the country exits the single market and customs union without a transition deal, John Longworth, Co-Chair of Leave Means Leave said:

“The latest scare story from Airbus screams of more Project Fear.

“The French-run Airbus is a classic multi-national business that clearly doesn’t care about the UK as we embark on a new post-Brexit future, because it is intrinsically wrapped up in the EU and trying to undermine the UK Government’s negotiating position.

“Airbus are claiming that they might relocate out of the UK because of uncertainty, but if we leave the customs union nothing will change as tariffs on aeronautical products are zero. They are also claiming that they may move production to countries outside the EU, which clearly can have nothing to do with Brexit!

“The best way to ensure certainty is to declare for WTO terms now and prepare to leave the EU in March 2019, an outcome companies like Airbus are fervently seeking to frustrate.

“No doubt we will see more of these scare stories over the coming months as multi-nationals seek to undermine the democratic decision of the British people in order to protect their own narrow, vested interests.”

Leinster in London wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:

I like haggis wrote:Call me crazy but it's almost as if the EU has agreements for this kind of cross border trade and supply chain arrangements in place with the US and China and the UK doesn't unless it's through the EU which it is leaving....

Amazing intelligent people (and bimbo) pretend to not understand this.

It doesn’t seem a massive leap for the Eu and U.K. to trade, if they can manage it with China?

The problem is volume, and time.
The industries under pressure are the JIT models.
China can fit into JIT because the timescales are huge. 6 weeks on the sea, with emergencies being covered by air. Nevertheless, the timescale for air is 12-24 hours from start to finish.

The models that use ferry/tunnel have not yet built in any safety net for queues at the border. These queues will develop irrespective of the particular arrangements that an individual lorry will have made with HMRC/French authority. They'll just be stuck behind the people who have not got arrangements.

So China can airfreight urgent parts, but not the U.K.? We have to use road freight?

There won’t be the horror queues because Ireland as a valuable member of the 27 can’t afford them- unless the Eu will punish Ireland to punish the U.K.