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Whether you can or can't actually vote IRL, In, or Out
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:49 pm 
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ChipSpike wrote:
The polls are this way because we are at the point of leaving where there is maximum uncertainty, and people will respond to that. But we were told the poll was a one off, binding, and would be implemented. This is the government line, and I respect them for it. Also, as we know, the polls may not reflect what would actually happen in a real life ref rerun. Not that there's going to be one.


They are what they are, just polls.

The argument being made was that everyone wants out - it's not out of order or anti-democratic to discuss opinion polls to take this debate further.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:53 pm 
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TranceNRG wrote:
ChipSpike wrote:
The polls are this way because we are at the point of leaving where there is maximum uncertainty, and people will respond to that. But we were told the poll was a one off, binding, and would be implemented. This is the government line, and I respect them for it. Also, as we know, the polls may not reflect what would actually happen in a real life ref rerun. Not that there's going to be one.


Hit nail on the head. The numbers are still pretty similar anyway.


You're right there hasn't been some sort of huge shift in opinion, but I'm not aware of many (if any) polls which suggest people are becoming more keen on Brexit but lots saying the tide has now turned and remain/soft arguments prevail.

I'm not saying this proves anything, apart from that pointing to polls is certainly a worthy rebuke to suggestions that everyone wants out.

The will of the people argument is the main Brexit argument, and it seems very clear that we're not a country that's mad keen on Brexit, it remains a divisive issue.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:57 pm 
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shereblue wrote:
ChipSpike wrote:
The polls are this way because we are at the point of leaving where there is maximum uncertainty, and people will respond to that. But we were told the poll was a one off, binding, and would be implemented. This is the government line, and I respect them for it. Also, as we know, the polls may not reflect what would actually happen in a real life ref rerun. Not that there's going to be one.

Government isn't sovreign. Parliament is. The people have spoken.

Breaking the fixed term parliament law was reversed after repeated denials too only last year so don't give such credence to "what we were told"


Parliament abdicated sovereignty to the voters by a massive majority. The PM and most others strongly emphasised that what we decided would be enacted. To reverse this would cause a huge loss of faith in the electorate, which is why both Cons and Lab are saying no second referendum.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:04 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
SamShark wrote:
Quote:
I think public opinion wants out and done, but you're happy to carry on ignoring that.


Without wishing to sound confrontational, yes I am happy to ignore what you think, as I don't agree with it.

You don't channel "public opinion" so we are left with guesswork and polling, the latter you see as illegitimate which discredits your position.



Every poll back my view, none back yours.

:lol: fool


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:10 pm 
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c69 wrote:
bimboman wrote:
SamShark wrote:
Quote:
I think public opinion wants out and done, but you're happy to carry on ignoring that.


Without wishing to sound confrontational, yes I am happy to ignore what you think, as I don't agree with it.

You don't channel "public opinion" so we are left with guesswork and polling, the latter you see as illegitimate which discredits your position.



Every poll back my view, none back yours.

:lol: fool


Sam forgot to post the Bimbo poll of the people of essex
110% leave. There were 8 people and a dog.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:48 pm 
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SamShark wrote:
They are what they are, just polls.

The argument being made was that everyone wants out - it's not out of order or anti-democratic to discuss opinion polls to take this debate further.

It seemed to me what he meant is that the public just wants to get on with it, hence he said "out and done", i.e. over and done with.

As polls go, it's a much clearer margin:

Quote:
A new poll by BMG for Change Britain has found an overwhelming majority are in favour of getting on with Brexit. 57% agree that “the government should get on with implementing the result of the referendum to take Britain out of the EU and in doing so take back control of our borders, laws, money and trade”. Just 22% disagree. Bad news for the Best for Britain crowd, 31% of Remain voters now want us to get on with leaving

That particular poll was in March, but I have seen others more recently indicating the same thing.

Today's cartoon in the DT sums it up:

Spoiler: show
Image


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:13 pm 
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Rugby2023 wrote:
SamShark wrote:
They are what they are, just polls.

The argument being made was that everyone wants out - it's not out of order or anti-democratic to discuss opinion polls to take this debate further.

It seemed to me what he meant is that the public just wants to get on with it, hence he said "out and done", i.e. over and done with.

As polls go, it's a much clearer margin:

Quote:
A new poll by BMG for Change Britain has found an overwhelming majority are in favour of getting on with Brexit. 57% agree that “the government should get on with implementing the result of the referendum to take Britain out of the EU and in doing so take back control of our borders, laws, money and trade”. Just 22% disagree. Bad news for the Best for Britain crowd, 31% of Remain voters now want us to get on with leaving

That particular poll was in March, but I have seen others more recently indicating the same thing.

Today's cartoon in the DT sums it up:

Spoiler: show
Image


Was it this poll from March by BMG http://www.bmgresearch.co.uk/bmg-poll-c ... sh-voters/
The question is the same but the numbers don't seem to correct in the quote compared with BMG results.

Also

Quote:
Although the poll suggests that most people agree with the statement, it should not be used as evidence for how people feel about Britain’s membership of the EU. Clearly the question wording is not presented in an objective and neutral way, but instead a subjective way with a lean towards one particular perspective. As for most statement-based questions.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:26 pm 
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Not sure Pete, but there's another yougov from June one too:

Quote:
Although the country is split down the middle over whether leaving the EU was the right or wrong decision, there is still a majority who think Brexit should happen. Overall, 70% think that the government should go ahead with Brexit, with this group being split between those that actually support it (44%) and those who don’t personally back it but it but think the government has a duty to go ahead with it regardless (26%).


These numbers are quite big compared to the right/wrong question, probably because they're a recognition of democracy.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:32 pm 
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Leave means Leave Sam.

Except for the bits we like.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:51 pm 
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When the leave lads spouted so much shite and had a load of smelly Russian money I would have thought you had grounds for another vote


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:07 pm 
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Sefton wrote:
More strawmen when caught lying from Bimbo.

It's his raison d'etre.



I was wrong about the latest polls not lying. I doubt you'd understand the differance being a narcacistic c unt.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:09 pm 
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EverReady wrote:
When the leave lads spouted so much shite and had a load of smelly Russian money I would have thought you had grounds for another vote



You're Irish, you alway have ground for another vote if it goes the wrong way first time.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:13 pm 
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And aren't we the sensible ones


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:24 pm 
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EverReady wrote:
And aren't we the sensible ones



time will tell. Though actually irrelevant to the brexit situation.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:49 pm 
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Meanwhile in Italy :

https://mobile.twitter.com/NaomiOhReall ... 9423496192


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:10 pm 
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bimboman wrote:


funny that the same thread has an unpaid personal assistant role in London but i'm sure we will get there eventually for civil engineers.

Edit: Meanwhile in Germany unemployment is only 3.4%.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:14 pm 
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Petej wrote:
bimboman wrote:


funny that the same thread has an unpaid personal assistant role in London but i'm sure we will get there eventually for civil engineers.

Edit: Meanwhile in Germany unemployment is only 3.4%.



We know the game is rigged.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:47 pm 
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EverReady wrote:
When the leave lads spouted so much shite and had a load of smelly Russian money I would have thought you had grounds for another vote


With the Russian interference nobody in either of the main parties wants to look at it closely. It might be very concerning and upsetting so best ignore it and it would only make brexit harder to deal with.

Britain’s contribution to fighting Russian organised crime is less than negative according to Jose Grinda.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:09 pm 
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Is that not a traitorous act in itself? I get Corbyn as he is mad for a bit of Putin but the other lads? All seems very counter intuitive. Maybe he has piss tapes of everybody.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:17 pm 
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EverReady wrote:
Is that not a traitorous act in itself? I get Corbyn as he is mad for a bit of Putin but the other lads? All seems very counter intuitive. Maybe he has piss tapes of everybody.


A lot of money has come through London and been spent in London and around the UK by some interesting people (and potentially some donated to the political parties) over the last 20 years. Though we do now have a Magnitsky act unfortunately we haven't seized Chelsea and sold off all the assets.

EDIT:though the reward for doing good work in the UK is a lucrative investment opportunity in a gold mine which isn't bad.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:23 pm 
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£600m a week more for the NHS from May :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:31 pm 
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It is all very smelly. I feel sorry for the Brits to be honest


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:52 pm 
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EverReady wrote:
It is all very smelly. I feel sorry for the Brits to be honest

Meh, our Brexit dividend is massive :smug:


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:56 pm 
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What are you personally getting?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:50 am 
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ChipSpike wrote:
shereblue wrote:
ChipSpike wrote:
The polls are this way because we are at the point of leaving where there is maximum uncertainty, and people will respond to that. But we were told the poll was a one off, binding, and would be implemented. This is the government line, and I respect them for it. Also, as we know, the polls may not reflect what would actually happen in a real life ref rerun. Not that there's going to be one.

Government isn't sovreign. Parliament is. The people have spoken.

Breaking the fixed term parliament law was reversed after repeated denials too only last year so don't give such credence to "what we were told"


Parliament abdicated sovereignty to the voters by a massive majority. The PM and most others strongly emphasised that what we decided would be enacted. To reverse this would cause a huge loss of faith in the electorate, which is why both Cons and Lab are saying no second referendum.


what massive majority would that be then?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:01 am 
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EverReady wrote:
What are you personally getting?


A semi I think.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:26 am 
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When’s the next deadline/significant event for this? We seem to have gone back to general hysteria so presumably not much is happening for a while?!


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:44 am 
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easyray wrote:
ChipSpike wrote:
shereblue wrote:
ChipSpike wrote:
The polls are this way because we are at the point of leaving where there is maximum uncertainty, and people will respond to that. But we were told the poll was a one off, binding, and would be implemented. This is the government line, and I respect them for it. Also, as we know, the polls may not reflect what would actually happen in a real life ref rerun. Not that there's going to be one.

Government isn't sovreign. Parliament is. The people have spoken.

Breaking the fixed term parliament law was reversed after repeated denials too only last year so don't give such credence to "what we were told"


Parliament abdicated sovereignty to the voters by a massive majority. The PM and most others strongly emphasised that what we decided would be enacted. To reverse this would cause a huge loss of faith in the electorate, which is why both Cons and Lab are saying no second referendum.


what massive majority would that be then?


"The European Union Referendum Bill easily passed during a vote in the Commons last night by 544 to 53, with support from Labour MPs giving the motion a majority of 491."


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:10 am 
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easyray wrote:
ChipSpike wrote:
shereblue wrote:
ChipSpike wrote:
The polls are this way because we are at the point of leaving where there is maximum uncertainty, and people will respond to that. But we were told the poll was a one off, binding, and would be implemented. This is the government line, and I respect them for it. Also, as we know, the polls may not reflect what would actually happen in a real life ref rerun. Not that there's going to be one.

Government isn't sovreign. Parliament is. The people have spoken.

Breaking the fixed term parliament law was reversed after repeated denials too only last year so don't give such credence to "what we were told"


Parliament abdicated sovereignty to the voters by a massive majority. The PM and most others strongly emphasised that what we decided would be enacted. To reverse this would cause a huge loss of faith in the electorate, which is why both Cons and Lab are saying no second referendum.


what massive majority would that be then?


"The European Union Referendum Bill easily passed during a vote in the Commons last night by 544 to 53, with support from Labour MPs giving the motion a majority of 491."


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:17 am 
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c69 wrote:
£600m a week more for the NHS from May :lol:


Quite remarkable. She mentioned the bus too!


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:26 am 
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Cost of Brexit barriers according to some:

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44511829


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:31 am 
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La soule wrote:
c69 wrote:
£600m a week more for the NHS from May :lol:


Quite remarkable. She mentioned the bus too!

And the magic money tree of course.
I for one look forward to my tax burden being increased to fund the NHS.
Tax and spend Tories are best Tories.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:32 am 
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La soule wrote:
c69 wrote:
£600m a week more for the NHS from May :lol:


Quite remarkable. She mentioned the bus too!

Not really given the context that she's being seen to deliver on Boris Johnson's exhortation during the referendum campaign. If Brexiters see this as a win then they might be more amenable to giving ground elsewhere.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:38 am 
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Armchair_Superstar wrote:
When’s the next deadline/significant event for this? We seem to have gone back to general hysteria so presumably not much is happening for a while?!


This week when the Lords add back on a meaningful vote ammendment, giving May the exact same problem she worked very hard to ignore last week


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:38 am 
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La soule wrote:
Cost of Brexit barriers according to some:

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44511829

To be fair, that is under the "most negative scenario".

However, I think it's difficult to escape the view that there will be some kind of hit and the risk of it being appreciable are strong.

To me opting for Brexit is a gamble: it may be severe, but it may not be as bad as predicted. I just can't think it's sensible to take the risk.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:40 am 
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Gospel wrote:
La soule wrote:
c69 wrote:
£600m a week more for the NHS from May :lol:


Quite remarkable. She mentioned the bus too!

Not really given the context that she's being seen to deliver on Boris Johnson's exhortation during the referendum campaign. If Brexiters see this as a win then they might be more amenable to giving ground elsewhere.


Read an article saying the increase was still below the YoY average increase of the last 70 years.

It sounds like a bit of smoke screen for the fact that the NHS has been under funded for the last 10 years. Thanks to Brexit, we will be able to fund the NHS type of things.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:42 am 
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Rinkals wrote:
La soule wrote:
Cost of Brexit barriers according to some:

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44511829

To be fair, that is under the "most negative scenario".

However, I think it's difficult to escape the view that there will be some kind of hit and the risk of it being appreciable are strong.

To me opting for Brexit is a gamble: it may be severe, but it may not be as bad as predicted. I just can't think it's sensible to take the risk.

It's a HUGE gamble made by people who don't see their future as part of a European Superstate.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:46 am 
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La soule wrote:
Gospel wrote:
La soule wrote:
c69 wrote:
£600m a week more for the NHS from May :lol:


Quite remarkable. She mentioned the bus too!

Not really given the context that she's being seen to deliver on Boris Johnson's exhortation during the referendum campaign. If Brexiters see this as a win then they might be more amenable to giving ground elsewhere.


Read an article saying the increase was still below the YoY average increase of the last 70 years.

It sounds like a bit of smoke screen for the fact that the NHS has been under funded for the last 10 years. Thanks to Brexit, we will be able to fund the NHS type of things.

The NHS is always underfunded. It's a bottomless pit. I rather wish we ring-fenced NHS funding so that it didn't dominate the political agenda.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:50 am 
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Gospel wrote:
Rinkals wrote:
La soule wrote:
Cost of Brexit barriers according to some:

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44511829

To be fair, that is under the "most negative scenario".

However, I think it's difficult to escape the view that there will be some kind of hit and the risk of it being appreciable are strong.

To me opting for Brexit is a gamble: it may be severe, but it may not be as bad as predicted. I just can't think it's sensible to take the risk.

It's a HUGE gamble made by people who don't see their future as part of a European Superstate.


Shame this wasn't the offer put to the people - eg a serious debate about the pros and cons of a Canada style arrangement, as a 3rd country.

It would have been clear that there would have to be a hard border in Ireland, that it may not be profitable for a few years as trade would be far from friction-less, and that it would take time to sort new trade deals, but we would be outside the EU and so not be part of a superstate.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:30 pm 
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Also there's no superstate


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