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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:24 am 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
penguin wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
penguin wrote:
From everything I've read on here I think Santa and Seneca see a world that is increasingly complex and the big issues of the day hard to resolve, hampered by bureaucracy, gummed up in the wheels of inefficient democracy, without a truly towering intellect, strong will and clear vision. There are none of these people currently on the world stage, and politicans are unable to rise to the challenge, hamstrung by the system and their own fallibility. In light of this multi-faceted, globe spanning gordian knot they can see that unpicking it is not the answer, you need an Alexandrian solution. A sword to cut through to the heart of the problem. For them Trump is that simple tool...and on one level I agree.


I will say one thing, I think it was always one of the great baffling questions of history: how did the Roman Republic collapse into Empire. It's a lot clearer to me at least how that happened. I suspect to many others too.

(cue Brazil chiming in on Ronald Syme...)


I'm not going to get into a debate about the fall of Empire, Augustus and the parallels with fascism...I came here to make a 'Trump is a tool' joke and that is all.


And that is fine. My broader point is that we are certainly living in an age where the limitations of democracy are making themselves known. And there are some fascinating ideas being thrown up in response to this. The deep right is a ferment of terrible, impractical, but probably vital ideas atm.


I wouldn't exclude capitalism/economic models, corporate influence and governance from that discussion.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:38 am 
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AD345 wrote:
Rinkals wrote:

On the last point, it may be fun to laugh about it, but I can't think the Kurds find it particularly amusing.


Wot?

Sen might get a laugh out of it, but I would doubt that the people who are directly affected by it would.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:51 am 
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Rinkals wrote:

On the last point, it may be fun to laugh about it, but I can't think the Kurds find it particularly amusing.

Comrade Trump has really done Putin a real solid. Just goes to show Putin backed the right man.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:17 am 
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Anonymous. wrote:
Rinkals wrote:

On the last point, it may be fun to laugh about it, but I can't think the Kurds find it particularly amusing.

Comrade Trump has really done Putin a real solid. Just goes to show Putin backed the right man.


On the contrary, I think Putin would have been better off with someone like Lindsey Graham.

Trump may have shown us the full extent of the unfettered autonomy that rests with the Presidency, but it really needed someone who isn't a senile idiot to wield that power without invoking public embarrassment.

That said, the Americans seem to have a very high embarrassment threshold because, according to a CNN poll, 41% approve of Trump's "handling of the presidency", so I could be wrong and Trump may get his third term yet.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:26 am 
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Rinkals wrote:
AD345 wrote:
Rinkals wrote:

On the last point, it may be fun to laugh about it, but I can't think the Kurds find it particularly amusing.


Wot?

Sen might get a laugh out of it, but I would doubt that the people who are directly affected by it would.


No-one was talking about the Kurds. Why bring up this complete non-sequitur?

Why not make a comment or, less likely, provide some insight, into the points actually under discussion?

What motivates you to jump into these conversations in this way and completely obliterate a topic under discussion with some throwaway crap like this?

Literally no-one thinks the Kurds are laughing about Trump at the moment. They are doing anything and everything they possibly can to stay alive.

That is nothing to do with the conversation


You will now proceed to twist yourself into pretzel-shaped rhetoric to demonstrate how of course it was about the Kurds and this thing and that thing that has happened and how everyone must obviously see that everything that is Trump is evil and must be denounced and shrieked about in every utterance where the name comes up.

...

What is the point of you?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:43 am 
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AD345 wrote:
Rinkals wrote:
AD345 wrote:
Rinkals wrote:

On the last point, it may be fun to laugh about it, but I can't think the Kurds find it particularly amusing.


Wot?

Sen might get a laugh out of it, but I would doubt that the people who are directly affected by it would.


No-one was talking about the Kurds. Why bring up this complete non-sequitur?

Why not make a comment or, less likely, provide some insight, into the points actually under discussion?

What motivates you to jump into these conversations in this way and completely obliterate a topic under discussion with some throwaway crap like this?

Literally no-one thinks the Kurds are laughing about Trump at the moment. They are doing anything and everything they possibly can to stay alive.

That is nothing to do with the conversation


You will now proceed to twist yourself into pretzel-shaped rhetoric to demonstrate how of course it was about the Kurds and this thing and that thing that has happened and how everyone must obviously see that everything that is Trump is evil and must be denounced and shrieked about in every utterance where the name comes up.

...

What is the point of you?


We are talking about the amusement value of Trump's Presidency.

Seneca of the Night wrote:
Okay, okay. I give in. I will provide the simple straightforward answer, the number 1 reason if I was locked in a room with pencil and paper and told to write it down:

because it's funny.


'Tah's post, which you quoted included it as the last item:

Waratah wrote:
1. Trump is not a conservative. He has no coherent political philosophy. There is no reason (and you have not suggested one) that he will 'steer' the GOP back to the centre. Neo-conservatism is a leftist creed in the same way that Trump is a celibate Marxist.

2. Trump lost the popular vote despite Russia's best efforts and Comey's election week intervention. Attempting to paint the better half of the U.S electorate as a dwindling & illegitmate globalist SJW spookworld is retarded, the sort of thing you might hear Alex Jones say.

3. It's not just a laugh you're having, it's a maniacal, Joaquin-Phoenix-as-Joker kind of laugh that makes people fear for your sanity and for their own safety. This shit is beyond idiotic.


My point is that, although Trump's antics may be amusing for some, their consequences are no laughing matter.

It is not specifically about the Kurds. Indeed the withholding of support for Ukraine may impact their ability to defend Russian incursion.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:17 am 
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For all Trump's faults he never acted like Clinton on Libya or Albright on the 500k of Iraqi children dying being an acceptable price to pay nor did he arm ISIS.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:21 am 
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flaggETERNAL wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
Thanks. I wasn't going to bother replying at length as just about everything I wrote was misrepresented back to me. I'll put that down to time zones, and well, tired and emotional hours.

As an aside on neo-conservatism, I thought its leftist roots were well known. Irving Kristol and Norman Podhoretz travelled an intellectual journey from left to right, and in the era of Trump, their buffonish sons are having to head the the other way again.

It's a good example of what Tucker is saying about Trump clearing the decks for proper conservatism again, and we can see with the firing of Bolton, that he's starting to be able to do that. It helps that he doesn't have to throw people out of the party, they appear to run fleeing to the exits of their own accord.


Stupid question but are neo-conservatism and neo-liberalism essentially the same thing? From where I stand, as an example there seems to be little difference between Hillary Clinton and Jeb Bush. For example.


That is an excellent question. This is a simplistic answer as I'm on my phone, but think of neo-liberalism as largely an economic label, pretty inchoate - I doubt most people who use the term could define it, but loosely the economic system the west now has inherited from the thatcher and Reagan reforms. Neo-conservatism is a very specific school originating in the left in the 60s, migrating over to the right in the 80s, mostly Jewish, intellectual, believing in American values as being universal and exceptional and the use of force in foreign policy to spread democracy as legitimate.

Simply one is economic, one is foreign policy. As you notice, the two got merged in a hideous hydra, and then it got even worse, as the ruling elite clipped on post modern liberalism, so we now have open borders, woke capital, and SJW madness, AND neo conservatism, AND neo liberalism all in one stew.

Which is what waratah seems to want to vote for. People have got to snap out of this trance. Trump might not be the cure, but at least he's a bucket of cold water over the drunk.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:40 am 
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kiwinoz wrote:
For all Trump's faults he never acted like Clinton on Libya or Albright on the 500k of Iraqi children dying being an acceptable price to pay nor did he arm ISIS.


Who cares!


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:51 am 
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AD345 wrote:
Rinkals wrote:
AD345 wrote:
Rinkals wrote:

On the last point, it may be fun to laugh about it, but I can't think the Kurds find it particularly amusing.


Wot?

Sen might get a laugh out of it, but I would doubt that the people who are directly affected by it would.


No-one was talking about the Kurds. Why bring up this complete non-sequitur?

Why not make a comment or, less likely, provide some insight, into the points actually under discussion?

What motivates you to jump into these conversations in this way and completely obliterate a topic under discussion with some throwaway crap like this?

Literally no-one thinks the Kurds are laughing about Trump at the moment. They are doing anything and everything they possibly can to stay alive.

That is nothing to do with the conversation


You will now proceed to twist yourself into pretzel-shaped rhetoric to demonstrate how of course it was about the Kurds and this thing and that thing that has happened and how everyone must obviously see that everything that is Trump is evil and must be denounced and shrieked about in every utterance where the name comes up.

...

What is the point of you?


The problem is ignoring his more inglorious faults and activities means ignoring some very real moral issues. I know that's the same for just about any politician, or leader for that matter, but is Trump a justifiable facilitator to a means to an end, or even a worthy symptom?
Actually, forget it. If we accept the malaise, as a symptom and therefore a potential pointer to a cure, he's probably nigh on perfect. It's the accumulated damage he does on the way that might kill the patient.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:18 am 
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piquant wrote:
piquant wrote:
Is Sondland going to testify? If so he's never getting the Secretary of State role he's after, but he might well be taking the view he's not paid $1 million for his job so he can go to jail to protect Trump



Seems it's a yes, and he's throwing Trump under the bus and then using forward and reverse gears to drive the point home



And after Sondland threw Trump under a bus Bill Taylor went and got a tank. In response to which team Trump is now attacking Taylor as a failed public servant. But only because the Taylor was as ambassador to the Ukraine aware that Trump considered release of aid to the Ukraine was contingent on Ukraine declaring publicly they were investigating the Bidens, and Taylor has informed the impeachment inquiry of just that. Whether this really changes anything though when Trump has already confessed live on camera is still a fair question.

Trump says you cannot impeach him over this because it wasn't a real crime, it was just him on the phone saying blah, blah, blah. I'd prefer he was presenting a better defence of some disturbingly pathetic misuse of public office, but sadly that's almost verbatim his (latest) defence


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:44 am 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
Waratah wrote:

(1) do you not think that we need a way through this political impasse?
(2) do you not think that our current ruling class is not fit for purpose?
(3) do you not think that another ruling class or system must be found?

No, no, and no, because I DO think all of those things. There is an argument to be made that Trump is facilitating the ruination of the GOP and the so-called moral majority, potentially the destruction of American democracy which might ultimately lead to political re-set, a revolution which will re-shape both the U.S political system & its ruling class. However:

1) It's as unlikely as it is optimistic, and anathema to a conservative like you. The shortest odds are that Trump will lose the election, go to jail, you will buy me a bottle of red, and nothing will change.

There's an inkling of a decent point in there that a bull in a china shop like Trump should be anathema to a conservative, but as Tucker points out, he represents the best opportunity to steer the party back to the centre of proper conservatism, away from the twin hijacks of neo-conservatism (essentially a radical leftist creed) and Kochian free-marketism, which he maintains have let Americans down so much.

2) It still doesn't explain your defence of Trump and your contempt for those who oppose him.

People who oppose Trump are, as I explained in a post a few pages back (i) Clintonite Globalists (ii) post -modern SJW leftists (iii) the 'lunatic spookworld'. All three of these groups are far far worse than Trump's common man MAGA crowd, and if you don't think that, you shouldn't be posting on a grown up rugby message bored. There is a fourth group, and that's the diehard 'never trumpers' on the right. A dwindling dying if not dead crowd, mostly associated with teh neo-cons and unwittingly tucked into (i) above. Legitimate opposition to Trump is to be found in the Bernie movement and some other tendrils of the left. The others are all despicable.

3) It still makes more sense that you're just having a laugh.

I can have a laugh and still think the above. And I am definitely having a laugh. It's a pity it has to end.
[/quote]

You've missed out the 4th - biggest - group.

Regular people with centrist views who are amazed and disgusted that this gaslighting blowhard has managed to ascend to the most powerful position in the world and are genuinely fearful that the lying twat might get a second term.

That's where I - and I would suggest, most - people sit with regard to the clown.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:02 pm 
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So it seems the Ukrainian officials were both told about the money hold up far earlier than the President is claiming and that they should talk to Mulvaney about it. If this report is true this the mouth is going to be center stage in the not too distant future.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:09 pm 
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Where's Rudy? He is conspicuous in his absence.

Has he been sequestered somewhere by nervous WH staffers? Being trained by the odious Jay Sekulow in what not to say?

I think Rudy is shitting bricks.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:59 pm 
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Location: Chukity - puck!!!
Dimitri Peskov, #Putin spokesman,
Quote:
"The US was the closest ally of the #Kurds.. But in the end, they abandoned the Kurds, actually betraying them ... almost forcing them to fight against the Turks," #Turkey #Russia
@StateDept


Even the ruSSians are hanging shit on Trump. Fair weather friend.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:24 pm 
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https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50146358
Quote:
Taylor detailed the strategic significance of Ukraine, underlining that he viewed Trump's decision to delay military aid as one that put lives at risk.

In one of the most dramatic passages of Taylor's opening statement, he describes a visit to the eastern front of Ukraine's civil war, where he stared across a river at Russian-led military forces. He relayed his unease as the Ukrainian military commander thanked him for military support Taylor knew was being delayed.

"Over 13,000 Ukrainians had been killed in the war, one or two a week," Taylor testified. "More Ukrainians would undoubtedly die without the US assistance."

Taylor bookended his opening statement by emphasising the importance of US support for Ukraine and the heroism of the Ukrainian people, who he said were standing up to Russian aggression and yearning for a "more secure and prosperous life".


It's really no laughing matter.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:31 pm 
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It’s appears he doesn’t have enough chubby tiny finger to plug all the holes in the dam wall.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:33 pm 
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houtkabouter wrote:
It’s appears he doesn’t have enough chubby tiny finger to plug all the holes in the dam wall.


Oh look who's back.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:39 pm 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
houtkabouter wrote:
It’s appears he doesn’t have enough chubby tiny finger to plug all the holes in the dam wall.


Oh look who's back.


Trump is fücked Sen. Because you and others hung your hat on him stemming the liberal tide their is now going to be transgender toilets on every street corner. There will be one on every plane that you will bet on who will go into it with your travelling partner. The government will have a transgender Congressional investigation where anybody you slagged off the trans will be done for hate crimes. You will be in trouble but I will note you are mainly a contrarian and probably don't mind birds packing heat


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:02 pm 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
houtkabouter wrote:
It’s appears he doesn’t have enough chubby tiny finger to plug all the holes in the dam wall.


Oh look who's back.


Sorry I got bored of you rolling out the same old tripe every day.

Call me when you’ve got some new stuff.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:20 pm 
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Rinkals wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50146358
Quote:
Taylor detailed the strategic significance of Ukraine, underlining that he viewed Trump's decision to delay military aid as one that put lives at risk.

In one of the most dramatic passages of Taylor's opening statement, he describes a visit to the eastern front of Ukraine's civil war, where he stared across a river at Russian-led military forces. He relayed his unease as the Ukrainian military commander thanked him for military support Taylor knew was being delayed.

"Over 13,000 Ukrainians had been killed in the war, one or two a week," Taylor testified. "More Ukrainians would undoubtedly die without the US assistance."

Taylor bookended his opening statement by emphasising the importance of US support for Ukraine and the heroism of the Ukrainian people, who he said were standing up to Russian aggression and yearning for a "more secure and prosperous life".


It's really no laughing matter.


Are there any wars you reckon the US shouldn't be involved in?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:10 pm 
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EverReady wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
houtkabouter wrote:
It’s appears he doesn’t have enough chubby tiny finger to plug all the holes in the dam wall.


Oh look who's back.


Trump is fücked Sen. Because you and others hung your hat on him stemming the liberal tide their is now going to be transgender toilets on every street corner. There will be one on every plane that you will bet on who will go into it with your travelling partner. The government will have a transgender Congressional investigation where anybody you slagged off the trans will be done for hate crimes. You will be in trouble but I will note you are mainly a contrarian and probably don't mind birds packing heat


Sounds like you're into it too, and you don't even have the excuse (incentive for titillation) of being a contrarian.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:33 pm 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
EverReady wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
houtkabouter wrote:
It’s appears he doesn’t have enough chubby tiny finger to plug all the holes in the dam wall.


Oh look who's back.


Trump is fücked Sen. Because you and others hung your hat on him stemming the liberal tide their is now going to be transgender toilets on every street corner. There will be one on every plane that you will bet on who will go into it with your travelling partner. The government will have a transgender Congressional investigation where anybody you slagged off the trans will be done for hate crimes. You will be in trouble but I will note you are mainly a contrarian and probably don't mind birds packing heat


Sounds like you're into it too, and you don't even have the excuse (incentive for titillation) of being a contrarian.


I have looked at a few ladyboys on the telly and thought 'yeah I would' but then I got up close and personal with a gaggle of them on Koh Tao and it was all adams apples and pock marked skin. I can't support separate toilets after letting me down like that


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:50 am 
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GOP invaded the impeachment inquiry.

Better not to hear how bad your hero has been I guess :?

On the plus side they did remember to bring pizza, if you are going to gate crash at least bring food


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:09 am 
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BokJock wrote:
GOP invaded the impeachment inquiry.

Better not to hear how bad your hero has been I guess :?

On the plus side they did remember to bring pizza, if you are going to gate crash at least bring food


Seems the party crashers forgot there were plenty of GOP participants in the interviews.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:15 am 
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FLASH NEWS: MAJOR DEVELOPMENT IN WALL CONSTRUCTION

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjlO9QhFmmU


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:16 am 
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Also Donald has finally started the Colorado leg of his border wall construction.

Apparently (New) Mexico weren’t sending their best


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:29 am 
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the orange shitgibbon has the best people

Image


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:37 am 
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Hong Kong wrote:
the orange shitgibbon has the best people

Image


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:46 am 
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the man child knows his geography


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:01 am 
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At what part of life does pissing in your own mouth seem like a good thing?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:20 am 
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https://twitter.com/SenatorLeahy/status ... 12/photo/1

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:24 am 
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American Oversight have got a ruling that the docs related to Ukraine must be released.

The NY Bar Association says Barr has to recuse himself regards Ukraine, which seems logical enough.

Things are chugging along.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:51 am 
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Santa wrote:
Rinkals wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50146358
Quote:
Taylor detailed the strategic significance of Ukraine, underlining that he viewed Trump's decision to delay military aid as one that put lives at risk.

In one of the most dramatic passages of Taylor's opening statement, he describes a visit to the eastern front of Ukraine's civil war, where he stared across a river at Russian-led military forces. He relayed his unease as the Ukrainian military commander thanked him for military support Taylor knew was being delayed.

"Over 13,000 Ukrainians had been killed in the war, one or two a week," Taylor testified. "More Ukrainians would undoubtedly die without the US assistance."

Taylor bookended his opening statement by emphasising the importance of US support for Ukraine and the heroism of the Ukrainian people, who he said were standing up to Russian aggression and yearning for a "more secure and prosperous life".


It's really no laughing matter.


Are there any wars you reckon the US shouldn't be involved in?


False equivalence, but from you that's normal.

I am not making any judgement on the US' involvement in wars (as should be obvious to a five-year-old), but simply that the capricious actions of the US President have consequences which may amuse you, but are far more serious for those affected.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:55 am 
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Rinkals wrote:
Santa wrote:
Rinkals wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50146358
Quote:
Taylor detailed the strategic significance of Ukraine, underlining that he viewed Trump's decision to delay military aid as one that put lives at risk.

In one of the most dramatic passages of Taylor's opening statement, he describes a visit to the eastern front of Ukraine's civil war, where he stared across a river at Russian-led military forces. He relayed his unease as the Ukrainian military commander thanked him for military support Taylor knew was being delayed.

"Over 13,000 Ukrainians had been killed in the war, one or two a week," Taylor testified. "More Ukrainians would undoubtedly die without the US assistance."

Taylor bookended his opening statement by emphasising the importance of US support for Ukraine and the heroism of the Ukrainian people, who he said were standing up to Russian aggression and yearning for a "more secure and prosperous life".


It's really no laughing matter.


Are there any wars you reckon the US shouldn't be involved in?


False equivalence, but from you that's normal.

I am not making any judgement on the US' involvement in wars (as should be obvious to a five-year-old), but simply that the capricious actions of the US President have consequences which may amuse you, but are far more serious for those affected.


:lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:02 am 
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Great discussion between Krystal Ball and Jamie Kilstein on some of the missteps by their side of the politics.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/t ... 0454635293

10, 9, 8, 7, 6... incoming DNC talking points disparaging these two progressives.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:37 am 
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Santa wrote:
Rinkals wrote:
Santa wrote:
Rinkals wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50146358
Quote:
Taylor detailed the strategic significance of Ukraine, underlining that he viewed Trump's decision to delay military aid as one that put lives at risk.

In one of the most dramatic passages of Taylor's opening statement, he describes a visit to the eastern front of Ukraine's civil war, where he stared across a river at Russian-led military forces. He relayed his unease as the Ukrainian military commander thanked him for military support Taylor knew was being delayed.

"Over 13,000 Ukrainians had been killed in the war, one or two a week," Taylor testified. "More Ukrainians would undoubtedly die without the US assistance."

Taylor bookended his opening statement by emphasising the importance of US support for Ukraine and the heroism of the Ukrainian people, who he said were standing up to Russian aggression and yearning for a "more secure and prosperous life".


It's really no laughing matter.


Are there any wars you reckon the US shouldn't be involved in?


False equivalence, but from you that's normal.

I am not making any judgement on the US' involvement in wars (as should be obvious to a five-year-old), but simply that the capricious actions of the US President have consequences which may amuse you, but are far more serious for those affected.


:lol:

And, yes, it's no surprise that you find it amusing.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:14 pm 
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Turns out a bunch of the heroic GOP Stormers were actually free to attend the closed door testimonies...


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:31 pm 
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The Trumpster confirms the US will withdraw from the Paris Climate agreement/accord/whatever

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50165596

I'd be interested to see how far California et al get in attempting to set State-level controls under clean air acts, and whether that has any significant impact - California is a significant producer and consumer of fossil fuel energy, but Im sure Texas and others could step up to the plate. Especially if the coal industry ever gets rehabilitated to any great extent.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:55 pm 
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Location: The centre of The Horrendous Space Kablooie!
The coal industry is never coming back in the US. Plants being shuttered, mining companies up the swanee, banks won't lend on it.

As for California, the E"P"A is launching numerous crackpot legal challenges against their emissions policies.

Given the litigation against Exxon seems to be going the way of tobacco litigation, with hugely damaging documents being subject to Court disclosure, Trump's lunatic backers are in for a rough ride.


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