Planet Rugby Forum

6.Jones wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:10 am The real problem with using fascism in conversation is that - like irony - so few people understand it. If only Alanis Morissette had done a song.

At the risk of using dictionaries to explain complex philosophical doctrines, here's what the OED has to say:
Fascism tends to include a belief in the supremacy of one national or ethnic group, a contempt for democracy, an insistence on obedience to a powerful leader, and a strong demagogic approach.

That's pure Trump. His supporters would agree with that description, and consider it a positive.
It's just a political doctrine, which Trump fits quite closely.

Saying someone's a fascist doesn't mean they're a Nazi, any more than saying someone's a Marxist means they're a communist. People conflate all those words for their own ends, to paint people as representing an opinion they don't, and to prevent people being called what they are. By any reasonable definition, Trump is a fascist. So what? If there hadn't been a Nazi party, there'd probably be fascist parties in the mainstream today. They're not unpopular ideas.

a political system based on a very powerful leader, state control, and being extremely proud of country and race, and in which political opposition is not allowed

a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

CrazyIslander wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:03 am The problem of course is that all Americans profess their country is a democracy and want it to stay that way. If Trump were to be content with the power he's gained right now (perhaps replace one more judge in the supreme court) and seek no more power. What would be his catergory? Democratic Fascist as opposed to a democratic socialist like Bernie?

Mick Mannock wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:03 am

6.Jones wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:10 am The real problem with using fascism in conversation is that - like irony - so few people understand it. If only Alanis Morissette had done a song.

At the risk of using dictionaries to explain complex philosophical doctrines, here's what the OED has to say:
Fascism tends to include a belief in the supremacy of one national or ethnic group, a contempt for democracy, an insistence on obedience to a powerful leader, and a strong demagogic approach.

That's pure Trump. His supporters would agree with that description, and consider it a positive.
It's just a political doctrine, which Trump fits quite closely.

Saying someone's a fascist doesn't mean they're a Nazi, any more than saying someone's a Marxist means they're a communist. People conflate all those words for their own ends, to paint people as representing an opinion they don't, and to prevent people being called what they are. By any reasonable definition, Trump is a fascist. So what? If there hadn't been a Nazi party, there'd probably be fascist parties in the mainstream today. They're not unpopular ideas.

Yet you choose to use that one dictionary definition.
And even then
Where is the evidence that Trump
-believes in the supremacy of one racial group?
-has a contempt for democracy?
-insists on obedience, etc?

But how about some other definitions?
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... sh/fascism

a political system based on a very powerful leader, state control, and being extremely proud of country and race, and in which political opposition is not allowed

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism

a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

There is no evidence that Trump intends to overthrow the entire US constitution.
There is no evidence that Trump wants to subsume the individual into the collective.
There is no evidence that Trump is militaristic.

There is no evidence that Trump is fascist.

Mick Mannock wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:22 am They do not reasonably describe Trump.

Where is the evidence that he intends to forcibly suppress opposition?

Trump is not fascist.

6.Jones wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:15 am

CrazyIslander wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:03 am The problem of course is that all Americans profess their country is a democracy and want it to stay that way. If Trump were to be content with the power he's gained right now (perhaps replace one more judge in the supreme court) and seek no more power. What would be his catergory? Democratic Fascist as opposed to a democratic socialist like Bernie?

Democratic fascist isn't an unreasonable description for Trump, although it's different to democratic socialist. There's no conflict between socialism and democracy. All Communists may be socialists, but not many socialists are Communists.

Mick Mannock wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:22 am They do not reasonably describe Trump.

Where is the evidence that he intends to forcibly suppress opposition?

Trump is not fascist.

AND-y wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:16 am Why is anyone even debating with stalky mcmannock and santa. Aren't there true colours f**king obvious at this stage, do you think you're entering into a honest conversation? They're scum and should be ignored.

AND-y wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:16 am Why is anyone even debating with stalky mcmannock and santa. Aren't there true colours f**king obvious at this stage, do you think you're entering into a honest conversation? They're scum and should be ignored.

piquant wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:43 am

AND-y wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:16 am Why is anyone even debating with stalky mcmannock and santa. Aren't there true colours f**king obvious at this stage, do you think you're entering into a honest conversation? They're scum and should be ignored.

what are their true colours? I'd be more inclined to think they're attention seeking than actually believing what they're posting, though either way it's weird.

Mick Mannock wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:49 am

piquant wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:43 am

AND-y wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:16 am Why is anyone even debating with stalky mcmannock and santa. Aren't there true colours f**king obvious at this stage, do you think you're entering into a honest conversation? They're scum and should be ignored.

what are their true colours? I'd be more inclined to think they're attention seeking than actually believing what they're posting, though either way it's weird.

Why would I not believe what I am posting?

shereblue wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:48 pm

Mick Mannock wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:49 am

piquant wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:43 am

AND-y wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:16 am Why is anyone even debating with stalky mcmannock and santa. Aren't there true colours f**king obvious at this stage, do you think you're entering into a honest conversation? They're scum and should be ignored.

what are their true colours? I'd be more inclined to think they're attention seeking than actually believing what they're posting, though either way it's weird.

Why would I not believe what I am posting?

Attention seeking?

Take the afternoon off and take another extra careful read of Piquant's post.

C69 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:27 pm

Mick Mannock wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:09 pm People take notice of this sort of thing

https://twitter.com/JackPosobiec/status ... 2411266048

Not really a great look linking to far right conspiracy theorists with white supremacist tendencies tbh.

Mick Mannock wrote: ↑Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:21 pm the Democrats are insane.But the US is not my country, and if people are sufficiently retarded to vote them in, so be it.

Muttonbirds wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:32 pm

Mick Mannock wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:48 pm Ted Wheeler is a fuckin' idiot, or a cynical manipulator

https://twitter.com/smudgesworld2/statu ... 3886524417

Ted's 100% right and an American hero.

paddyor wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:02 pm

Mick Mannock wrote: ↑Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:21 pm the Democrats are insane.But the US is not my country, and if people are sufficiently retarded to vote them in, so be it.

What is it you think is insane about Biden?

Mick Mannock wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:25 pm

Muttonbirds wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:32 pm

Mick Mannock wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:48 pm Ted Wheeler is a fuckin' idiot, or a cynical manipulator

https://twitter.com/smudgesworld2/statu ... 3886524417

Ted's 100% right and an American hero.

Incredible that you can write this.

Norman Harvey wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:49 pm

Mick Mannock wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:25 pm

Muttonbirds wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:32 pm

Mick Mannock wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:48 pm Ted Wheeler is a fuckin' idiot, or a cynical manipulator

https://twitter.com/smudgesworld2/statu ... 3886524417

Ted's 100% right and an American hero.

Incredible that you can write this.

Seems to me he described Trump quite accurately

Oregon Attorney General Ellen Rosenblum addressed Saturday’s shooting, tweeting that “Our worst nightmare has come to pass: Someone tied to the protests in Portland is dead.”

“The investigation into this tragedy will reveal who is legally responsible,” Rosenblum tweeted late Sunday. “We already know the President is morally responsible. His conduct is craven and cowardly.”

Mick Mannock wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:54 pm

Norman Harvey wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:49 pm

Mick Mannock wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:25 pm

Muttonbirds wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:32 pm

Mick Mannock wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:48 pm Ted Wheeler is a fuckin' idiot, or a cynical manipulator

https://twitter.com/smudgesworld2/statu ... 3886524417

Ted's 100% right and an American hero.

Incredible that you can write this.

Seems to me he described Trump quite accurately

No helping you, in that case. Wheeler is content to see people die, and businesses lost, because of TDS.

Wheeler will resign before the election. He is a cunt. A cunt supported by cunts

A group of leaders representing various progressive organizations from across the Portland area have called for the resignations of Mayor Ted Wheeler and Police Chief Chuck Lovell in the wake of Saturday’s fatal shooting.

Bobbin Singh, executive director of the Oregon Justice Resource Center, said the conditions leading up to the incident were predictable citing various instances of clashes between right-wing protesters and counter demonstrators over the years.

“These conditions have been created because there’s been a lack of leadership, a lack of vision,” Singh said. “We can no longer move forward with the current leadership that’s in place in Portland.”

The victim of Saturday’s shooting has not been identified but was wearing a hat bearing the logo of Vancouver, Washington-based Patriot Prayer. Leader Joey Gibson told The Oregonian/OregonLive that although he couldn’t provide a name, the deceased man was “a good friend and a supporter” of the organization.

The group regularly staged demonstrations in Portland that were met with fierce opposition by left-leaning and other community groups for at least the last three years. Many of the scenes that typically played out during those rallies repeated Saturday as right-wing demonstrators pelted counter protesters with paint balls and scuffles broke out throughout downtown.

Portland-based community groups have long said they feared confrontations would lead to serious injuries or worse.

“I don’t think we can see what happened last night in a vacuum or as an isolated incident,” Olivia Katbi-Smith, co-chair of the Portland chapter of the Democratic Socialists of America, said. “People are going to be killed on both sides of this because of the environment Ted Wheeler has been making in the city.”

The demand for Wheeler to resign was also echoed in a joint letter from the Oregon chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, the Oregon Justice Resource Center, the Portland Democratic Socialists of America NextUp Action Fund, Portland’s Resistance and Popular Mobilization PDX.

“What took place last night was inevitable given Mayor Wheeler’s repeated failure,” the letter said. “He has not protected or supported Portlanders. We do not have confidence in his ability to course-correct. He must resign.”

The shooting comes after Wheeler held a news conference on Wednesday vowing to do more to address violence during protests, police accountability and aid for downtown businesses. Wheeler is up for reelection in November and has previously said publicly that he wouldn’t resign.

Wheeler’s runoff challenger is Sarah Iannarone, an urban policy consultant who finished third in the 2016 mayoral race. In a statement Sunday, she said the violence was unacceptable and “predicted by many but preventable by those in positions of power.”

Wheeler also faces a community write-in campaign for Teressa Raiford, a community organizer and activist who finished third in the May mayoral primary. Raiford is the founder of nonprofit Don’t Shoot PDX, which has sued the city and federal authorities in recent months over police tactics during demonstrations such as using tear gas on crowds.

The general election is Nov. 3.

The community groups called together Sunday by the Oregon Justice Resource Center said police have repeatedly aided right-wing demonstrators while liberal activists are dispersed with tear gas and other crowd control munitions during protests against systemic racism and police brutality.

Portland police on Saturday diverted vehicles participating in a pro-Trump caravan toward Interstate 5 near the Hawthorne Bridge while keeping counter demonstrators off the road. Some cars and trucks began zooming past the police barricade after some time, heading into downtown Portland.

In previous years, Portland police would dispatch several officers to keep conservative activists separate from counter demonstrators. But no such interventions appeared Saturday and a police spokesman told The Oregonian/OregonLive the bureau does not publicly discuss its planning for such events.

The agency came under intense scrutiny last weekend when a far-right activist from Texas brandished a loaded gun as dueling demonstrations unfolded in front of the Mark O. Hatfield Federal Courthouse.

“The police stood by and did nothing,” Katbi-Smith said of the response to violent scuffles that broke out throughout the afternoon.

Lovell later said officers were hesitant to wade into the crowd as they were worried their presence would further flare already high tensions. Bureau leaders have also said they had 30 officers on hand to monitor the demonstration, a fraction of what they usually dispatch for large rallies.

The man who pulled the gun, identified as Alan Swinney, was spotted at a rally decrying a Black Lives Matter posted in front of Gresham City Hall days later and also at a flag-wave in The Dalles hours before Saturday’s deadly shooting.

Santa wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:58 pm Norman if it has to be explained to you now you will never understand. That's ok.

Anyway here's a tweet from the Oregon AG in which she literally says that the shooter is legally but not morally responsible for the shooting.

Oregon Attorney General Ellen Rosenblum addressed Saturday’s shooting, tweeting that “Our worst nightmare has come to pass: Someone tied to the protests in Portland is dead.”

“The investigation into this tragedy will reveal who is legally responsible,” Rosenblum tweeted late Sunday. “We already know the President is morally responsible. His conduct is craven and cowardly.”

Mick Mannock wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:38 pm He is not going to debate

https://twitter.com/ThomasCatenacci/sta ... 1180139521

Mick Mannock wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:16 pm Are Gofundme taking a political stance?

Anyway, looks like Kyle Rittenhouse will have a good lawyer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOgCFN5T3h4

Sorry for the source, if any sensitive types object.

Actually, I don't give a shit.

Cartman wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:12 pm Biden looks like warmed up death, ffs
Is there really no one else?

New Guy 2 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:44 pm

Mick Mannock wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:38 pm He is not going to debate

https://twitter.com/ThomasCatenacci/sta ... 1180139521

Honestly it'll be fun if he wins.

puku wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:22 pm

Mick Mannock wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:16 pm Are Gofundme taking a political stance?

Anyway, looks like Kyle Rittenhouse will have a good lawyer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOgCFN5T3h4

Sorry for the source, if any sensitive types object.

Actually, I don't give a shit.

Given that Rittenhouse was illegally in possession of the rifle he used to kill two and injure another, it will be interesting to see how that plays out in his claim to self-defense.

Unless he was hoping to bag a whitetail in the streets of Kenosha, possible I guess given the presence of urban deer, Rittenhouse has no legal reason to have the rifle.

I still maintain that Glock guy was within his rights to shoot Rittenhouse. Self defense an all.

puku wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:22 pm

Mick Mannock wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:16 pm Are Gofundme taking a political stance?

Anyway, looks like Kyle Rittenhouse will have a good lawyer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOgCFN5T3h4

Sorry for the source, if any sensitive types object.

Actually, I don't give a shit.

Given that Rittenhouse was illegally in possession of the rifle he used to kill two and injure another, it will be interesting to see how that plays out in his claim to self-defense.

Unless he was hoping to bag a whitetail in the streets of Kenosha, possible I guess given the presence of urban deer, Rittenhouse has no legal reason to have the rifle.

I still maintain that Glock guy was within his rights to shoot Rittenhouse. Self defense an all.

Under Wisconsin statutes that say anyone under 18 who "goes armed" with any deadly weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor, Kyle Rittenhouse, 17, was not old enough to legally carry the assault-style rifle he had.

But John Monroe, a lawyer who specializes in gun rights cases, believes an exception for rifles and shotguns, intended to allow people age 16 and 17 to hunt, could apply.

Tom Grieve, a Milwaukee defense lawyer who also specializes in gun cases, agreed the exception might apply beyond hunting, but said that part of the law is poorly drafted. He said he would argue to apply a rule of law that interprets ambiguous criminal statutes in favor of the defendant.

Rittenhouse could be in violation of having a gun within a gun-free zone, if there was one covering, for instance, a school nearby. Also, Illinois law requires anyone who owns any kind of firearm in that state to have a Firearm Owners Identification card, but that is only available to someone 21 or older, or someone with a sponsor who is 21 and eligible for a card.

Rittenhouse did not own the gun, his lawyer said Friday.

"Kyle did not carry a gun across state line," L. Lin Wood said in a tweet Friday morning. "The gun belonged to his friend, a Wisconsin resident. The gun never left the state of Wisconsin."

Anthony Cotton, a Waukesha defense attorney, said whether or not Rittenhouse legally possessed the rifle is trifling compared to the homicide charges.

Mick Mannock wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:33 pm

puku wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:22 pm

Mick Mannock wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:16 pm Are Gofundme taking a political stance?

Anyway, looks like Kyle Rittenhouse will have a good lawyer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOgCFN5T3h4

Sorry for the source, if any sensitive types object.

Actually, I don't give a shit.

Given that Rittenhouse was illegally in possession of the rifle he used to kill two and injure another, it will be interesting to see how that plays out in his claim to self-defense.

Unless he was hoping to bag a whitetail in the streets of Kenosha, possible I guess given the presence of urban deer, Rittenhouse has no legal reason to have the rifle.

I still maintain that Glock guy was within his rights to shoot Rittenhouse. Self defense an all.

We will see.

I suspect - actually I know - Lin Wood is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay cleverer than you.

Cartman wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:12 pm Biden looks like warmed up death, ffs
Is there really no one else?

puku wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:14 pm

Mick Mannock wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:33 pm

puku wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:22 pm

Mick Mannock wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:16 pm Are Gofundme taking a political stance?

Anyway, looks like Kyle Rittenhouse will have a good lawyer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOgCFN5T3h4

Sorry for the source, if any sensitive types object.

Actually, I don't give a shit.

Given that Rittenhouse was illegally in possession of the rifle he used to kill two and injure another, it will be interesting to see how that plays out in his claim to self-defense.

Unless he was hoping to bag a whitetail in the streets of Kenosha, possible I guess given the presence of urban deer, Rittenhouse has no legal reason to have the rifle.

I still maintain that Glock guy was within his rights to shoot Rittenhouse. Self defense an all.

We will see.

I suspect - actually I know - Lin Wood is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay cleverer than you.

Maybe...maybe not. But a guy who couldn't win Unsworth's "slam dunk" case of defamation against Elon Musk, might suggest that he's not the shit hot lawyer you think he is.

As you say, we shall see.

CrazyIslander wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:14 pm

Cartman wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:12 pm Biden looks like warmed up death, ffs
Is there really no one else?

If only Bernie was more moderate.

Norman Harvey wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:37 pm

CrazyIslander wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:14 pm

Cartman wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:12 pm Biden looks like warmed up death, ffs
Is there really no one else?

If only Bernie was more moderate.

How did Biden do in the debate against Bernie.