Planet Rugby Forum

Rinkals wrote:

assfly wrote:

Rinkals wrote:Look, I agree, one cannot do anything about being born white, and I don't think we need to feel guilty about it.

But I do think it's important to acknowledge the advantages it gives us. I appreciate that there are some disadvantages to being born a pale male in South Africa, but in general, these are outweighed.

But what does this actually achieve?

It means you aren't continually banging on about how useless blacks are.

Rinkals wrote:It means you aren't continually banging on about how useless blacks are.

[edit]
Also you probably wouldn't get people continually whinging about how whites have been oppressed for 24 years
[/edit]

Sards wrote:

Rinkals wrote:

assfly wrote:

Rinkals wrote:Look, I agree, one cannot do anything about being born white, and I don't think we need to feel guilty about it.

But I do think it's important to acknowledge the advantages it gives us. I appreciate that there are some disadvantages to being born a pale male in South Africa, but in general, these are outweighed.

But what does this actually achieve?

It means you aren't continually banging on about how useless blacks are.

Black people need education, which is the responsibility of goverment so there you have it. ....and to understand that being a politician is not a popularity winning contest but rather employing skilled people in positions of authority.

assfly wrote:

Rinkals wrote:It means you aren't continually banging on about how useless blacks are.

[edit]
Also you probably wouldn't get people continually whinging about how whites have been oppressed for 24 years
[/edit]

So the general rule is don't be racist? That's agreeable, but I don't think it's really what the white privilege debate is trying to achieve. At least that's how I perceive it.

Rinkals wrote: I'm not accusing anyone of being racist.

I'm just saying that we need to have a measure of understanding where they are coming from.

Sards wrote:

saffer13 wrote:

Bloutoria wrote:Must be honest, I find the whole "privilege" thing to be BS. Why is it anybody's problem if somebody else did not have some sort of privilege? Would the All Blacks pick a lesser team because they are playing a team with less access to talent, coaching etc, just to be "fair"? Should Einstein pretend to be less intelligent because the rest of the world cannot match him? The world does not work like that.

I think that's where most people go in different directions with this argument and it becomes sensitive. My pov is not one of having to apologize for being white or having certain privileges due to being white, but rather one of understanding the realities that people were oppressed due to nothing more than skin color and to make as if that didn't take place or to simply say "get over it" will do nothing in repairing those wrongs.

I think his use of examples was too much and not needed, some which he really would have no clue about regarding the details other than a few news snippets he'd be privy to over there, I do agree mostly with his argument though. I 100% support rewarding hard work, effort, etc. but at the same time am not oblivious to how certain races were not afforded the same opportunities I was.

Whites have been oppressed for 24 years....we do understand.

Average Joe wrote:I fail to see how his speech is applicable to South Africa. Where Government is ruled by black majority, so too the police force, the military, the traffic department, the post office… the list can go on and on. If a black policeman shoots a black person by mistake in SA is it because of white privilege?

After reading his speech I wonder how people feel about how it could affect their children. I would not send my kids to his school if that’s what they teach there. You are telling white kids that it’s bad to be white but they shouldn’t feel bad for being white but that they should do something. What does that even mean? What is it that they should do something about and what does he want them to do about it?

He is the headmaster of a school, a place where kids go to get educated. He should strive to motivate and inspire his pupils. Leave the politics at home.

Average Joe wrote:Ja sure yank if you say it's the same then it must be.

assfly wrote:

Rinkals wrote: I'm not accusing anyone of being racist.

I'm just saying that we need to have a measure of understanding where they are coming from.

Rinkals, I'm not saying you did.

My question is a practical one (not just to you, to anyone). What does this "measure of understanding" achieve? Does it make "us" or "them" feel better? It sure as hell doesn't put food on the table, or build a school.

beachboy wrote:
The DA have become money grabbers and are allowing over development of the City. They are squeezing the ratepayers and middle class, who are already under major pressure. I never was a fan of Helen Zille but I like Maimane. I am looking to vote for a smaller party for the local elections and maybe the DA for national. Maybe they will get the message. Maybe the new Federal Party or the one of the Christian parties. We will see.

Rinkals wrote:It's not about making anyone feel better; it's about understanding the sensibilities, the need to be able to look at the situation from the other person's point of view.

assfly wrote:

Rinkals wrote:It's not about making anyone feel better; it's about understanding the sensibilities, the need to be able to look at the situation from the other person's point of view.

Yes, I get that. But what is that actually going to change? How does that improve anyone's lives in South Africa?

It's a lovely idea, but in the cold, hard reality of real life, it won't change a thing.

saffer13 wrote:

Average Joe wrote:Ja sure yank if you say it's the same then it must be.

Interesting response.

Bokkom wrote:

assfly wrote:

Rinkals wrote:It's not about making anyone feel better; it's about understanding the sensibilities, the need to be able to look at the situation from the other person's point of view.

Yes, I get that. But what is that actually going to change? How does that improve anyone's lives in South Africa?

It's a lovely idea, but in the cold, hard reality of real life, it won't change a thing.

Yep. All this virtue signalling gets you close to fukken nowhere.
Enough talking - somebody has to provide practical solutions for SA's problems. Everyone can be a preacher.

assfly wrote:

Rinkals wrote:It's not about making anyone feel better; it's about understanding the sensibilities, the need to be able to look at the situation from the other person's point of view.

Yes, I get that. But what is that actually going to change? How does that improve anyone's lives in South Africa?

It's a lovely idea, but in the cold, hard reality of real life, it won't change a thing.

Rinkals wrote:You don't see the importance of maintaining a cordial relationship with our black population?

assfly wrote:

Rinkals wrote:You don't see the importance of maintaining a cordial relationship with our black population?

Maintaining? It's at an all time low. I've never seen race relations as poor as they are now.

My point is that lip-service along will not achieve anything. And that's what I believe makes the whole debate around so-called white privilege so pointless - it has zero tangible results.

If the black population (for want of a better phrase) are happy with just that, then crack on.

Average Joe wrote:

saffer13 wrote:

Average Joe wrote:Ja sure yank if you say it's the same then it must be.

Interesting response.

What do you want me to say. Just like him you're basing your entire reasoning on examples that is not comparable to the situation and demographics. He's adresing born frees in a country were the majority of the population is black, were the decision makers are black. But he uses a country with a white majority and white decision makers as an example. You're comparing apples and oranges.

Give me an example of white privilege in South Africa today. Something these kids can resonate with. Privilege in SA has nothing to do with race its about wealth. Yes there are very wealthy white people in SA, there are also middle class whites and poor whites. The same with black people, it's the way society works.

Average Joe wrote:O it impacts them alright but not in the way you or he thinks it does.

assfly wrote:

Rinkals wrote:You don't see the importance of maintaining a cordial relationship with our black population?

Maintaining? It's at an all time low. I've never seen race relations as poor as they are now.

My point is that lip-service along will not achieve anything. And that's what I believe makes the whole debate around so-called white privilege so pointless - it has zero tangible results.

If the black population (for want of a better phrase) are happy with just that, then crack on.

Average Joe wrote:You're asking me a question you already know the answer to. Because of their whiteness when these kids leave school they have less than 10% chance of finding employment in SA.

I'll be frank with you. We are still making a living here for now, some beter than others. We are not privileged though, not any more and we haven't been for a long time. We are a minority living in an African country. We have to except that and deal with it.

There are a lot of opportunities in this country for black people. They should stop looking for someone or something to blame for their misfortunes and focus on bettering their lives by grabbing the opportunities afforded.

Average Joe wrote:You're asking me a question you already know the answer to. Because of their whiteness when these kids leave school they have less than 10% chance of finding employment in SA.

I'll be frank with you. We are still making a living here for now, some beter than others. We are not privileged though, not any more and we haven't been for a long time. We are a minority living in an African country. We have to except that and deal with it.

There are a lot of opportunities in this country for black people. They should stop looking for someone or something to blame for their misfortunes and focus on bettering their lives by grabbing the opportunities afforded.

saffer13 wrote:

Average Joe wrote:You're asking me a question you already know the answer to. Because of their whiteness when these kids leave school they have less than 10% chance of finding employment in SA.

I'll be frank with you. We are still making a living here for now, some beter than others. We are not privileged though, not any more and we haven't been for a long time. We are a minority living in an African country. We have to except that and deal with it.

There are a lot of opportunities in this country for black people. They should stop looking for someone or something to blame for their misfortunes and focus on bettering their lives by grabbing the opportunities afforded.

I agree about the opportunities being better now, and that white people are in the minority in African country, etc. However, you're assuming generations of oppression can be undone in a blink of an eye and people now simply need to forget the past and be grateful for what they have and "make the best of it" - I'd argue that it's not that simple boet. You can't undo generations of oppression with a few years now. You or I have never been oppressed to the level black people were in SA so we can't relate to the damage done.

Rinkals wrote:No, but I don't see the point of antagonising them further.

However, I'm sure you're right and they really love to have white people telling them that there is no such thing as white privilege.

I actually getting sick of trying to explain myself, so, if you don't mind, I'm going to consider this conversation closed.

saffer13 wrote: I agree about the opportunities being better now, and that white people are in the minority in African country, etc. However, you're assuming generations of oppression can be undone in a blink of an eye and people now simply need to forget the past and be grateful for what they have and "make the best of it" - I'd argue that it's not that simple boet. You can't undo generations of oppression with a few years now. You or I have never been oppressed to the level black people were in SA so we can't relate to the damage done.

assfly wrote:

Rinkals wrote:No, but I don't see the point of antagonising them further.

However, I'm sure you're right and they really love to have white people telling them that there is no such thing as white privilege.

I actually getting sick of trying to explain myself, so, if you don't mind, I'm going to consider this conversation closed.

Wow, I was warned about the perils of attempting to debate with you, but even that caught be by surprise.

This country is in serious trouble in regards to its race relations and depending on your political ideology, we seem to place blame with either Donald Trump or Barack Obama as being the cause of this discord. However, these issues have been with us long before the elections of 2016 or 2008. In fact, race relations have been an issue of contention since the inception of the country. I can’t help but feel that right now however we are in a particularly negative time which is only being made worse by rhetoric on both sides of the political spectrum.

During a time when actual White Supremacists feel emboldened to march around an American city, we should be joining together to fight this evil, but instead our national conversation has become an argument of two extremes where some people on the left claim everyone is a white supremacist and some on the right refuse to acknowledge that anyone is a white supremacist.

Both sides feel wholly justified in their anger, frustration and vitriol but this politicization of race is doing exponentially more harm than good. I think I will scream if I hear anything else about black on black crime, reverse racism or white privilege. Not because I don’t think they are important and necessary conversations worth having, but because each side is throwing around these labels as a way of shutting down perceived opponents in a proverbial drop the mike moment. Not only is the intent not to find common ground, unity or equality, it is meant to further separate and divide an already fractured populous.

Of course, racism still exists, and there are challenges that African-Americans face in this country that are purely based on our race. The unfortunate truth is that we do have to work twice as hard to get half as far. There are obstacles that I have to face as an African-American woman that are significantly different than my white counterparts, but does screaming white privilege at every person who you have some type of disagreement with really solve any injustice or in any way fight inequality and prejudice? I’m a lifelong Democrat who voted for Hillary Clinton, but I am tired of seeing my community suffer and not move forward. Whether someone uses politically correct language or not is irrelevant if they also don’t work to address our issues.

My objection to how the term “white privilege” is being used is that it is not intended to try and educate white people about real injustices that we have historically faced and continue to face currently, but instead it is intended to shame them for their whiteness which is problematic. The problem isn’t whiteness. The problem is racism and racists. People can’t help being born white any more than I can help being born black. Judging people based upon their race and assuming negative characteristics because of a person’s race is racism, regardless of who is doing the judging. I know there are people who don’t believe that black people can be racist and granted, we are not part of a history of racial oppression, but can’t we be honest that sometimes the white guy you disagree with on social media or in class isn’t a player in the oppression of black Americans, but is just someone who you disagree with?

The term “white privilege” has become a weapon used by too many of us on the Left to shut down those who disagree with us. If you haven’t noticed, it is also causing fear even among some of our allies that they are going to do or say the wrong thing which will cause them to be labeled a racist as well. We have made racial perfection the litmus test, and the result is those of good will are seen as the enemy. I know that many blacks in this country are just expressing their fear, anger and trauma related to how we have been treated, but it sometimes comes across as anti-white instead of pro-equality. This is making our movement less credible. If we truly want to see the death of racism as we say we do, we will need the help of the majority of Americans to be invested in solving this issue.

The weaponization of the term has caused us to not be able to have honest conversations about race. We spend so much time policing what people can say about race in this country that we never get to what people really believe and why they believe it. We do not allow a safe space for people who have genuine curiosity and interest in our community and culture to ask questions or take part in our trends because we rise up in anger screaming about cultural appropriation. We get angrier about a Kardashian wearing braids or SheaMoisture using white models in their ads than we do about the fact that too many black and brown children are in failing schools and living in communities that are lacking vital resources that they need to become their best selves.

While we are on the subject, can we be honest that we are not completely consistent in how we react to racially questionable behavior? We’re more likely to go full bore into white people that seem to be aligned with Republicans and Conservatives, while giving most White Liberals a pass. Liberalism has become an ideology that blames racism only on White Conservative Republicans while allowing White Liberals to employ the same arguments of privilege when challenged about their commitment to actual equal opportunity.

If you disagree with me about my characterization of Liberalism, then show me where blacks who live in liberal cities live in more integrated neighborhoods, have better educational attainment, lower rates of incarceration, higher net worth or access to better schools than blacks who live in conservative run cities? The political arguments around race are a red herring that haven’t led to improvements in our communities that can be attributed to either party.

I’m just unwilling to give my side of the aisle a pass anymore on how we talk about race. All the sympathetic social media posts and Hate Has No Home Here signs don’t fix the issues related to racism. People who apologize for their “white privilege or being born white” without any corresponding behavior change are just virtue signaling. The problem isn’t just hate, but apathy and silence from too many Americans regardless of their political affiliation. We can’t change what we don’t acknowledge. Our party speaks of tearing down statues, but are silent about tearing down the educational, institutional and cultural barriers that continue to keep too many in Black America trapped in a cycle of poverty unable to care for themselves in the same way you are able to care for your family. The news media and Hollywood speak about the racism of Donald Trump and his supporters while ignoring the decades of negative portrayals of African-Americans that they themselves promoted which have fed the narrative of us being lazy, uneducated and violent to those very same people.

My last objection to the “white privilege” conversation is that it teaches the message to our young people that we need white people to give up something for black people to achieve. That if we work hard and make good life decisions it still won’t matter because we are black. I wholeheartedly disagree with this characterization which is incredibly patronizing and harmful. My grandmother used to tell me that I wouldn’t always get what I deserved, but I would get what I earned. She told me that life wasn’t fair and she acknowledged that it would be more difficult as a poor black girl in America. She also told me that if I worked hard and got a good education that I could have a life that was beyond my imagination. She told me this after I got off the bus at age ten after having lived on the streets with my mother and younger brother for several months. I am now a lawyer in Philadelphia. There are millions of kids in the community who are smart, talented and gifted, but instead of focusing on improving their lives and nurturing them to exceed expectations and achieve, we spend too much time worrying about every real or imagined slight made against us by white Americans.

I genuinely believe that we are a country that is full of well-meaning people who attempt to treat everyone with respect, but the bulk of the challenge is that we do not genuinely understand each other. We have much work to do on race to break down those barriers. However, that work is not being done when we merely spew racial rhetoric against each other. So while everyone else is focusing on talking about “white privilege”, I will be focusing on helping the young people I know to achieve “black excellence”.

Sards wrote:

saffer13 wrote: I agree about the opportunities being better now, and that white people are in the minority in African country, etc. However, you're assuming generations of oppression can be undone in a blink of an eye and people now simply need to forget the past and be grateful for what they have and "make the best of it" - I'd argue that it's not that simple boet. You can't undo generations of oppression with a few years now. You or I have never been oppressed to the level black people were in SA so we can't relate to the damage done.

Its mainly the older people that take issue with everything.....of any colour denomination.

On saturday we had a birthday party for my 5 year old...It was a completely mixed bag of cultures. Noone took offence to each other and we had twice the number of parents as kids with 20 kids...obviously. The wine, beer and hardtack was flowing and not a single incident or dispute regarding racial issues...

Its only the politicians that use racially motivated bias to gather votes and divide us along racial lines. Its only the politicians that preach White Monopoly capital and Radical Economic Transformation to cover their failures and state looting.

Bokkom wrote:

saffer13 wrote:

Average Joe wrote:You're asking me a question you already know the answer to. Because of their whiteness when these kids leave school they have less than 10% chance of finding employment in SA.

I'll be frank with you. We are still making a living here for now, some beter than others. We are not privileged though, not any more and we haven't been for a long time. We are a minority living in an African country. We have to except that and deal with it.

There are a lot of opportunities in this country for black people. They should stop looking for someone or something to blame for their misfortunes and focus on bettering their lives by grabbing the opportunities afforded.

I agree about the opportunities being better now, and that white people are in the minority in African country, etc. However, you're assuming generations of oppression can be undone in a blink of an eye and people now simply need to forget the past and be grateful for what they have and "make the best of it" - I'd argue that it's not that simple boet. You can't undo generations of oppression with a few years now. You or I have never been oppressed to the level black people were in SA so we can't relate to the damage done.

I am pretty sure everybody on this thread agrees with that statement. However, how do we go forward from here, in practical terms?

saffer13 wrote: Also, don't make dumb comments

assfly wrote:

saffer13 wrote: Also, don't make dumb comments

I actually think this is probably the most practical solution that both sides should stick to. It would solve so many problems.