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How would/will you vote in a referendum?
Keep the law as it stands. 20%  20%  [ 32 ]
Repeal the 8th. 80%  80%  [ 125 ]
Total votes : 157
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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:18 pm 
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The very fact you would make the issue personal speaks far more about you than I.

Grown men can take a difference of opinion without becoming a wailing child.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:20 pm 
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normilet wrote:
https://twitter.com/iAM_AM/status/961889432369590278

Didn't want to post the picture directly on the forum, supposedly taken outside the Department of Education yesterday.


I saw those scumbags down at Independent House during the week. Absolutely shameless, and shows the depths that they'll sink. Shows that their arguments aren't really working either and they're getting desperate. Friend of mine has been getting death threats and, in an ironic twist, being called a murdering c**t.

Can't wait until this thing is done with.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:22 pm 
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Bullettyme wrote:
normilet wrote:
https://twitter.com/iAM_AM/status/961889432369590278

Didn't want to post the picture directly on the forum, supposedly taken outside the Department of Education yesterday.


I saw those scumbags down at Independent House during the week. Absolutely shameless, and shows the depths that they'll sink. Shows that their arguments aren't really working either and they're getting desperate. Friend of mine has been getting death threats and, in an ironic twist, being called a murdering c**t.

Can't wait until this thing is done with.


Let's not have a rush to the moral high ground here from the anybody pro-choice.

I've seen some of the stuff John McGuirk and others are getting. And look at that cúnt Conspicous's and his attack on here.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:25 pm 
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Mullet 2 wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:
normilet wrote:
https://twitter.com/iAM_AM/status/961889432369590278

Didn't want to post the picture directly on the forum, supposedly taken outside the Department of Education yesterday.


I saw those scumbags down at Independent House during the week. Absolutely shameless, and shows the depths that they'll sink. Shows that their arguments aren't really working either and they're getting desperate. Friend of mine has been getting death threats and, in an ironic twist, being called a murdering c**t.

Can't wait until this thing is done with.


Let's not have a rush to the moral high ground here from the anybody pro-choice.

I've seen some of the stuff John McGuirk and others are getting. And look at that cúnt Conspicous's and his attack on here.


Yeah, part of the reason why I'm looking forward to it being over. People are just losing their minds. Not surprising given the subject matter. I think that type of wording and imagery is unacceptable though, and I'm not sure of the purpose it serves other than demonising people who already have faced some serious stigma (from the Irish state no less).


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:28 pm 
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The images are vile.

But they are the reality of abortion. I've been told numerous times on here it's just a bunch of cells.

If your position is that it is just a bunch of cells than the picture isn't any different to a bloody steak.

Shouldn't have them where children can see them however.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:40 pm 
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Mullet 2 wrote:
The images are vile.

But they are the reality of abortion. I've been told numerous times on here it's just a bunch of cells.

If your position is that it is just a bunch of cells than the picture isn't any different to a bloody steak.

Shouldn't have them where children can see them however.


They're not the reality of abortion. That's an outright lie.

Termination at 22 weeks is rare - the vast majority of abortions take place in the first 12 weeks and don't involve gory surgical procedures. At 22 weeks there's a small but still significant chance of viability - any termination of pregnancy at that stage is rare and usually for explicit medical reasons. I don't know where they got that photo from, but I'm fairly sure it doesn't represent what they're implying.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:44 pm 
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Conservative Eddie wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
The images are vile.

But they are the reality of abortion. I've been told numerous times on here it's just a bunch of cells.

If your position is that it is just a bunch of cells than the picture isn't any different to a bloody steak.

Shouldn't have them where children can see them however.


They're not the reality of abortion. That's an outright lie.

Termination at 22 weeks is rare - the vast majority of abortions take place in the first 12 weeks and don't involve gory surgical procedures. At 22 weeks there's a small but still significant chance of viability - any termination of pregnancy at that stage is rare and usually for explicit medical reasons. I don't know where they got that photo from, but I'm fairly sure it doesn't represent what they're implying.



Is there some contention from these hardcore chaps that they aren't? There will be abortions post 12 weeks after repeal.

There are now.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:44 pm 
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Mullet 2 wrote:
The very fact you would make the issue personal speaks far more about you than I.

Grown men can take a difference of opinion without becoming a wailing child.


Are you you for real? Do you actually read any of the posts you post? Probably the most hypocritical thing I've ever read on here.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:47 pm 
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CM11 wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
The very fact you would make the issue personal speaks far more about you than I.

Grown men can take a difference of opinion without becoming a wailing child.


Are you you for real? Do you actually read any of the posts you post? Probably the most hypocritical thing I've ever read on here.



I never claimed that I don't have an abrasive style you gobshite.

I, however, haven't changed my opinion of you because you disagree with me about abortion.

You're the only hysterical fool to claim that honour.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:52 pm 
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Mullet 2 wrote:
The images are vile.

But they are the reality of abortion. I've been told numerous times on here it's just a bunch of cells.

If your position is that it is just a bunch of cells than the picture isn't any different to a bloody steak.

Shouldn't have them where children can see them however.


It's not the reality. Images of the 12 weeks is the extreme edge of what we're being asked to vote on, and images of anything past that is just plain dishonest. It's scaremongering slippery slope stuff that has no basis in reality, it strikes me that they've lost and are looking to fight another battle - if they think abortion is so wrong how about putting energy into sex-ed and family planning instead of a hypothetical?


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:58 pm 
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Mullet 2 wrote:
Conservative Eddie wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
The images are vile.

But they are the reality of abortion. I've been told numerous times on here it's just a bunch of cells.

If your position is that it is just a bunch of cells than the picture isn't any different to a bloody steak.

Shouldn't have them where children can see them however.


They're not the reality of abortion. That's an outright lie.

Termination at 22 weeks is rare - the vast majority of abortions take place in the first 12 weeks and don't involve gory surgical procedures. At 22 weeks there's a small but still significant chance of viability - any termination of pregnancy at that stage is rare and usually for explicit medical reasons. I don't know where they got that photo from, but I'm fairly sure it doesn't represent what they're implying.



Is there some contention from these hardcore chaps that they aren't? There will be abortions post 12 weeks after repeal.

There are now.


Do you have any idea what happens at 22 weeks into a pregnancy?

Any termination at that stage will involve medical intervention to ensure the survival of the baby, unless that's already been deemed impossible due to extenuating developmental/medical circumstances. A small minority of babies delivered at 22 weeks survive, most do not. These terminations are performed for medical reasons and not on some whim. Conflating terminations at that stage with terminations in the first 12 weeks (the reality for the vast majority) is utterly disingenuous.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:03 pm 
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Mullet 2 wrote:
CM11 wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
The very fact you would make the issue personal speaks far more about you than I.

Grown men can take a difference of opinion without becoming a wailing child.


Are you you for real? Do you actually read any of the posts you post? Probably the most hypocritical thing I've ever read on here.



I never claimed that I don't have an abrasive style you gobshite.

I, however, haven't changed my opinion of you because you disagree with me about abortion.

You're the only hysterical fool to claim that honour.


And yet another example to go with the hundreds where you've falsely represented me.

It has nothing to do with your stance on abortion and everything to do with the constant personal attacks and misrepresentation of my posts where you feel the need to manufacture a contrary point so that you can continue to attack me.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:07 pm 
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You're a liar frankly

You clearly state above you were "wrong" about me because I challenged your view on the pictures.

Life is too short anyway to worry about some cúnt like you being unable to separate out your opinions.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:28 pm 
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Mullet 2 wrote:
You're a liar frankly

You clearly state above you were "wrong" about me because I challenged your view on the pictures.

Life is too short anyway to worry about some cúnt like you being unable to separate out your opinions.


And another. This has nothing to do with the pictures.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:29 pm 
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As for separating out opinions. Could you try it sometime? Even once would be nice.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:30 pm 
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CM11 wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
As for the images.

Why do you have a problem with the images? Rolling your eyes isn't an answer when last I checked.


I'm not even going to engage with you on this one Mullet. If you think they're ok and not playing nasty then I've misjudged you.



Go tell your lies to somebody who might actually believe you.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:31 pm 
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CM11 wrote:
As for separating out opinions. Could you try it sometime? Even once would be nice.



:lol: :lol: :lol:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:31 pm 
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Mullet 2 wrote:
CM11 wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
As for the images.

Why do you have a problem with the images? Rolling your eyes isn't an answer when last I checked.


I'm not even going to engage with you on this one Mullet. If you think they're ok and not playing nasty then I've misjudged you.



Go tell your lies to somebody who might actually believe you.


This though, this is what I'm talking about.

I haven't lied once yet you continually accuse me of doing so. It's pathetic.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:33 pm 
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If it quacks like a duck


Well in your case you'll just lie and say it's a cow but you get the drift.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:40 pm 
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Mullet 2 wrote:
If it quacks like a duck


Well in your case you'll just lie and say it's a cow but you get the drift.


Sigh.

Any more stuff you'd like to make up so you can continue to abuse me?

You might think it's all fun and games but even having been told that it's not on my end, you continue. And yet think my comment on the previous page was out of order.

Go figure.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:40 pm 
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It's like watching two heavyweight punch-drunk boxers slug it out.

Captivating stuff :thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:42 pm 
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Abuse you? Look who threw out the term twat first today horse.

Be a big boy and own your little tantrum.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:45 pm 
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Mullet 2 wrote:
Abuse you? Look who threw out the term twat first today horse.

Be a big boy and own your little tantrum.


You think it's all about today? You have worse self awareness than earl.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:48 pm 
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Earl is grand.

Doesn't become a whiney spa when people disagree with him.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:06 pm 
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not been posting much in this thread ...... and its obviously getting heated, but here goes anyway.

I'm in favour of repealing the 8th and legislating for abortion in Ireland, on the following grounds:

In the case of medically diagnosed FFA, we should be providing a state funded abortion, on demand, at any stage, (plus all necessary subsequent care required) if thats what the parents want.

In the case of rape/incest, we should be providing all possible (non-advisory) counselling to the woman, and in the event that she feels simply cannot go through with the pregnancy, we should be providing a state funded abortion, up until 12 weeks.

In the case of ALL other requests for abortion (which I would deem to be 'elective'), we should be telling these people to buy a packet of abortion pills (pre 12 weeks) or fudge off over to England (post 12 weeks) if they REALLY want to go through with an abortion ...... because our laws are clear and unambiguous, and as a people we are not in the business of using taxpayers money to fund abortions, simply because pregnancy doesn't suit someone at a particular moment in time.

No doubt I'll get slated for this by some, but thats my best effort in terms of how I'm personally looking at this.

If the proposed replacement legislation doesn't restrict abortion outside of FFA, rape and incest cases, along the above lines, then the referendum will be defeated IMO .... and proper order too.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:13 pm 
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rfurlong wrote:
not been posting much in this thread ...... and its obviously getting heated, but here goes anyway.

I'm in favour of repealing the 8th and legislating for abortion in Ireland, on the following grounds:

In the case of medically diagnosed FFA, we should be providing a state funded abortion, on demand, at any stage, (plus all necessary subsequent care required) if thats what the parents want. :thumbup:

In the case of rape/incest, we should be providing all possible (non-advisory) counselling to the woman, and in the event that she feels simply cannot go through with the pregnancy, we should be providing a state funded abortion, up until 12 weeks. :thumbup:

In the case of ALL other requests for abortion (which I would deem to be 'elective'), we should be telling these people to buy a packet of abortion pills (pre 12 weeks) or fudge off over to England (post 12 weeks) if they REALLY want to go through with an abortion ...... because our laws are clear and unambiguous, and as a people we are not in the business of using taxpayers money to fund abortions, simply because pregnancy doesn't suit someone at a particular moment in time. :thumbdown:

No doubt I'll get slated for this by some, but thats my best effort in terms of how I'm personally looking at this.

If the proposed replacement legislation doesn't restrict abortion outside of FFA, rape and incest cases, along the above lines, then the referendum will be defeated IMO .... and proper order too.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:48 pm 
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rfurlong

Who is going to do the telling when it comes to abortion pills? Or do you mean stay with the current situation where it's illegal to buy one?

The state funding issue is a real red herring there. Try not to dress what is a complex situation up as a cost analysis. Disagree with unrestricted access, that's fine, but the cost is not even a distant cousin of being relevant. And if it was, it'd be in the other direction.

You might be able to answer a question I've asked Mullet several times to no avail. How do you see us repealing but managing to secure what you want without there being an opportunity down the line to expand to a situation you disagree with?


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:52 pm 
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rfurlong wrote:
not been posting much in this thread ...... and its obviously getting heated, but here goes anyway.

I'm in favour of repealing the 8th and legislating for abortion in Ireland, on the following grounds:

In the case of medically diagnosed FFA, we should be providing a state funded abortion, on demand, at any stage, (plus all necessary subsequent care required) if thats what the parents want.

In the case of rape/incest, we should be providing all possible (non-advisory) counselling to the woman, and in the event that she feels simply cannot go through with the pregnancy, we should be providing a state funded abortion, up until 12 weeks.

In the case of ALL other requests for abortion (which I would deem to be 'elective'), we should be telling these people to buy a packet of abortion pills (pre 12 weeks) or fudge off over to England (post 12 weeks) if they REALLY want to go through with an abortion ...... because our laws are clear and unambiguous, and as a people we are not in the business of using taxpayers money to fund abortions, simply because pregnancy doesn't suit someone at a particular moment in time.

No doubt I'll get slated for this by some, but thats my best effort in terms of how I'm personally looking at this.

If the proposed replacement legislation doesn't restrict abortion outside of FFA, rape and incest cases, along the above lines, then the referendum will be defeated IMO .... and proper order too.

Part of the reason I'd like the FFA/rape cases segregated from the 12 week cases is because the latter will muddy the waters for the former.

Allowances for FFA/rape is non-negotiable in my view and if they fück that up, there'll be a lot of people rightly pissed off.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:53 pm 
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Red herring? it's actually a fundamental principle in many jurisdictions that allow abortion or euthanasia.

I.e that the tax of people like me doesn't go to fund something we consider morally reprehensible.

You twat


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:55 pm 
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Uncle Fester wrote:
rfurlong wrote:
not been posting much in this thread ...... and its obviously getting heated, but here goes anyway.

I'm in favour of repealing the 8th and legislating for abortion in Ireland, on the following grounds:

In the case of medically diagnosed FFA, we should be providing a state funded abortion, on demand, at any stage, (plus all necessary subsequent care required) if thats what the parents want.

In the case of rape/incest, we should be providing all possible (non-advisory) counselling to the woman, and in the event that she feels simply cannot go through with the pregnancy, we should be providing a state funded abortion, up until 12 weeks.

In the case of ALL other requests for abortion (which I would deem to be 'elective'), we should be telling these people to buy a packet of abortion pills (pre 12 weeks) or fudge off over to England (post 12 weeks) if they REALLY want to go through with an abortion ...... because our laws are clear and unambiguous, and as a people we are not in the business of using taxpayers money to fund abortions, simply because pregnancy doesn't suit someone at a particular moment in time.

No doubt I'll get slated for this by some, but thats my best effort in terms of how I'm personally looking at this.

If the proposed replacement legislation doesn't restrict abortion outside of FFA, rape and incest cases, along the above lines, then the referendum will be defeated IMO .... and proper order too.

Part of the reason I'd like the FFA/rape cases segregated from the 12 week cases is because the latter will muddy the waters for the former.

Allowances for FFA/rape is non-negotiable in my view and if they fück that up, there'll be a lot of people rightly pissed off.



I'll never know why they didn't simply for for this and not choose to wrap it in this shitfest.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:55 pm 
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How do you legislate for the rape cases?

EDIT: As I stand on it, FFA, Rape, no brainers and available. 12 weeks should be available on demand. I think the hysteria over industrial amounts of abortions and abortions being used as birth control is just that, hysteria.


Last edited by Bullettyme on Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:57 pm 
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Bullettyme wrote:
How do you legislate for the rape cases?



As I said previously I am more than happy for this to be done on the word of women.

I don't believe the tiny amount of women who might abuse that is outweighed by the need for compassion.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:00 pm 
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Mullet 2 wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:
How do you legislate for the rape cases?



As I said previously I am more than happy for this to be done on the word of women.

I don't believe the tiny amount of women who might abuse that is outweighed by the need for compassion.


That's a decent enough stance.

Your second line reflects my thinking on abortion up to 12 weeks.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:00 pm 
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Bullettyme wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:
How do you legislate for the rape cases?



As I said previously I am more than happy for this to be done on the word of women.

I don't believe the tiny amount of women who might abuse that is outweighed by the need for compassion.


That's a decent enough stance.

Your second line reflects my thinking on abortion up to 12 weeks.



One would think so yes


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:09 pm 
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rfurlong

I may have misunderstood your cost point above, you're just taking a moral stance on it? You seem to be speaking for 'the people' though. You don't think that the vote is what is going to ascertain the majority view of the people, no?


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:11 pm 
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CM11 wrote:
rfurlong

Who is going to do the telling when it comes to abortion pills? Or do you mean stay with the current situation where it's illegal to buy one?

Stick with current situation where they are illegal. If anyone genuinely needs an abortion, the Irish state can provide one, rather than anyone in the scenarios I've outlined having to rely on internet pills. If someone wants to take an illegal abortion pill out of convenience, and they subsequently have medical complications as a result, well thats their problem

The state funding issue is a real red herring there. Try not to dress what is a complex situation up as a cost analysis. Disagree with unrestricted access, that's fine, but the cost is not even a distant cousin of being relevant. And if it was, it'd be in the other direction.

Cost is germaine .... especially to the vote. Taxpayers have every right to object to their money being used for elective abortions .... same goes for any other elective surgery btw. Why should I pay for someones hair transplant, liposuction or botox injections, if their health is not at risk?

You might be able to answer a question I've asked Mullet several times to no avail. How do you see us repealing but managing to secure what you want without there being an opportunity down the line to expand to a situation you disagree with?

I cant see around corners any better than the full on pro choice brigade. If I put the question back to you along the below lines, you'll probably accuse me of constructing a strawman....

"Stats, how do you see us repealing along the lines you want, without there being an opportunity down the line to expand to a situation you (presumably) disagree with, such as abortion as a form of contraceptive?"




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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:12 pm 
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Bullettyme wrote:
normilet wrote:
https://twitter.com/iAM_AM/status/961889432369590278

Didn't want to post the picture directly on the forum, supposedly taken outside the Department of Education yesterday.


I saw those scumbags down at Independent House during the week. Absolutely shameless, and shows the depths that they'll sink. Shows that their arguments aren't really working either and they're getting desperate. Friend of mine has been getting death threats and, in an ironic twist, being called a murdering c**t.

Can't wait until this thing is done with.

Tell them to go to the cops. Nobody deserves that sort of shít.

It's a real shame the bills of Rabbitte and Higgins never got over the line, making almost of all that stuff legal.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:15 pm 
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CM11 wrote:
rfurlong

I may have misunderstood your cost point above, you're just taking a moral stance on it? You seem to be speaking for 'the people' though. You don't think that the vote is what is going to ascertain the majority view of the people, no?


see above.

I'm pretty sure "the people" who pay tax, don't want their money pissed away on that cohort of abortion requests, that emanate from people that it simply doesn't suit to carry the baby to full term

I'm sure you'd have something to say if our health pending was being frittered away on things like tattoo removal, boob jobs and such like?


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:19 pm 
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rfurlong

Well, as far as I'm aware we will treat a woman who has had complications due to using an abortion pill. They just won't be initially monitored properly and could end up in a worse situation than if they were under the care of a doctor.

See above post on the cost issue.

On the final point, I'm not sure why no one can give a straight answer on this. In terms of your question, of course I can't guarantee an outcome I'm uncomfortable with. I'm ok with that as I don't believe we're going to see a drastic change in attitudes and I'd be much more interested in pushing proper sex education to avoid the need for abortion at all. I mentioned this when I name checked the Netherlands 'low' abortion rate. I also firmly believe that there are very few abortions over 12 weeks which fall under abortion as a contraceptive.

But either way, I'm not trying to be antagonistic with the question. I'm just wondering if you know of a realistic way where you get what you want without having to worry about unrestricted access coming in anyway?


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:20 pm 
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Mullet 2 wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:
How do you legislate for the rape cases?



As I said previously I am more than happy for this to be done on the word of women.

I don't believe the tiny amount of women who might abuse that is outweighed by the need for compassion.


That's a decent enough stance.

Your second line reflects my thinking on abortion up to 12 weeks.



One would think so yes


*clinks glass*


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