Planet Rugby Forum

rfurlong wrote:

CM11 wrote:

rfurlong wrote:I don't think abortion should be dealt with via a constitutional provision ... its utter madness that the 8th amendment is in there at all, and its presence has led to all sorts of fvck ups and a general lack of compassion/common sense when dealing with crisis pregnancies (FFA, rape etc)

However, I think 'elective' abortion, due to the pregnancy simply not suiting the mother, is morally repugnant and should be resisted at all costs. Those women who want to use abortion as a contraceptive, can continue to go to Liverpool for all I care. I refuse to feel guilty about not facilitating their selfishness.

The tragedy here is that the intended legislation, as currently drafted/proposed, alienates people like me that want to see the 8th repealed, but who also want abortion restricted to certain grounds.

People keep telling me that the proposed legislation/citizens assembly stance/dail committee report is the logical outcome of trying to square the circle around the availability of abortion pills, the difficulty in proving rape allegations etc. I just find it hard to believe that our politicians cannot come up with proposed legislation that gets rid of the 8th, but which doesn't usher in unrestricted access up to 12 weeks.

Spain has a rape/abortion protocol - why cant we?
Marijuana, like abortion pills, is easily accessible - does that mean we should immediately legalise it?

The 'correct' (in my view) legislation, which covered rape, incest and FFA, would have seen Repeal win by a landslide. Now we have a situation where its touch and go ........ with the sole reason being the crappy proposed legislation.

So it should be very clear to you that Yes is the only vote you can logically argue for.

If we're not dealing with this via the constitution then it really just comes down to what the government feels is the majority opinion of the nation. Surely?

A yes vote from me ushers in legislation that I fundamentally disagree with

I actually don’t believe that unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks is “the majority opinion of the nation” ..... that’s the whole point I was making!

If the proposed legislation dealt only with rape, incest and FFA (as was the talk 12 months ago) then the yes campaign would skate home ...... because it would represent the majority opinion.

I don't think abortion should be dealt with via a constitutional provision ... its utter madness that the 8th amendment is in there at all, and its presence has led to all sorts of fvck ups and a general lack of compassion/common sense when dealing with crisis pregnancies (FFA, rape etc)

Jumper wrote:

Duff Paddy wrote:What a load of nonsense Mullet - a foetus is not a baby. You’re getting close to every sperm is sacred territory here

If a foetus counts as a "baby", what about a zygote?

Jumper wrote:

Duff Paddy wrote:What a load of nonsense Mullet - a foetus is not a baby. You’re getting close to every sperm is sacred territory here

If a foetus counts as a "baby", what about a zygote?

Mullet 2 wrote:

Duff Paddy wrote:What a load of nonsense Mullet - a foetus is not a baby. You’re getting close to every sperm is sacred territory here

And you're sounding like a raving liberal.

So if you call it a different name you can pretend it's not worthy of living?

HighKingLeinster wrote:

Jumper wrote:

Duff Paddy wrote:What a load of nonsense Mullet - a foetus is not a baby. You’re getting close to every sperm is sacred territory here

If a foetus counts as a "baby", what about a zygote?

A smaller baby

Conservative Eddie wrote:

JoeyFantastic wrote:

Jumper wrote:I hope that any No voters will also be seeking to repeal the 13th ammendment which allows women to travel for abortion. If you believe that abortion is murder (its not) and you idly stand by and watch women travelling to England to get one, you are essentially complicit in what you believe to be the murder of ~4000 Irish "babies" each year.

Care to tell me when you think life begins?

I am crushingly disappointed by the debate around this. We should have widespread, safe and free access to contraception and sex ed. We should as a society be focused on preventing unwanted pregnancies first and foremost.

When do you think life begins?

Even with good access to contraception and sex ed we're still going to have thousands of abortions every year. Women will opt for abortions and these women will often be well educated and well informed - use contraception etc. It's a bit of a myth that it's just ill-educated and disadvantaged women getting abortions. Married middle-class women get them too with the support of their husbands for perfectly sane and rational reasons, which ought to be no one else's business but theirs.

Duff Paddy wrote:

Mullet 2 wrote:

Duff Paddy wrote:What a load of nonsense Mullet - a foetus is not a baby. You’re getting close to every sperm is sacred territory here

And you're sounding like a raving liberal.

So if you call it a different name you can pretend it's not worthy of living?

It has a different name because it is not the same thing. Your argument about worthiness of living is bizarre, no such judgement is being made by anyone. The woman whose body it is has the right to determine whether she wants to carry the foetus, its not my decision no more than it is yours.

JoeyFantastic wrote:

Jumper wrote:I hope that any No voters will also be seeking to repeal the 13th ammendment which allows women to travel for abortion. If you believe that abortion is murder (its not) and you idly stand by and watch women travelling to England to get one, you are essentially complicit in what you believe to be the murder of ~4000 Irish "babies" each year.

Care to tell me when you think life begins?

I am crushingly disappointed by the debate around this. We should have widespread, safe and free access to contraception and sex ed. We should as a society be focused on preventing unwanted pregnancies first and foremost.

Mullet 2 wrote:

Duff Paddy wrote:

Mullet 2 wrote:

Duff Paddy wrote:What a load of nonsense Mullet - a foetus is not a baby. You’re getting close to every sperm is sacred territory here

And you're sounding like a raving liberal.

So if you call it a different name you can pretend it's not worthy of living?

It has a different name because it is not the same thing. Your argument about worthiness of living is bizarre, no such judgement is being made by anyone. The woman whose body it is has the right to determine whether she wants to carry the foetus, its not my decision no more than it is yours.

Except it is and we're having a referendum on it.

Go shout my body my choice with some blue haired birds who care.

CM11 wrote:

JoeyFantastic wrote:

Jumper wrote:I hope that any No voters will also be seeking to repeal the 13th ammendment which allows women to travel for abortion. If you believe that abortion is murder (its not) and you idly stand by and watch women travelling to England to get one, you are essentially complicit in what you believe to be the murder of ~4000 Irish "babies" each year.

Care to tell me when you think life begins?

I am crushingly disappointed by the debate around this. We should have widespread, safe and free access to contraception and sex ed. We should as a society be focused on preventing unwanted pregnancies first and foremost.

I completely agree with you on the sex ed etc thing. That doesn't mean it has to be one or the other. The debate (and I'm not sure why it should even be a debate) you talk about should be happening separate to the referendum debate, not as part of it.

Duff Paddy wrote:

HighKingLeinster wrote:

Jumper wrote:

Duff Paddy wrote:What a load of nonsense Mullet - a foetus is not a baby. You’re getting close to every sperm is sacred territory here

If a foetus counts as a "baby", what about a zygote?

A smaller baby

Careful now they’ll be calling sperm a half a baby next

JoeyFantastic wrote:

CM11 wrote:

JoeyFantastic wrote:

Jumper wrote:I hope that any No voters will also be seeking to repeal the 13th ammendment which allows women to travel for abortion. If you believe that abortion is murder (its not) and you idly stand by and watch women travelling to England to get one, you are essentially complicit in what you believe to be the murder of ~4000 Irish "babies" each year.

Care to tell me when you think life begins?

I am crushingly disappointed by the debate around this. We should have widespread, safe and free access to contraception and sex ed. We should as a society be focused on preventing unwanted pregnancies first and foremost.

I completely agree with you on the sex ed etc thing. That doesn't mean it has to be one or the other. The debate (and I'm not sure why it should even be a debate) you talk about should be happening separate to the referendum debate, not as part of it.

In your opinion, for me they are linked.

Care to say when life begins?

JoeyFantastic wrote:

CM11 wrote:

JoeyFantastic wrote:

Jumper wrote:I hope that any No voters will also be seeking to repeal the 13th ammendment which allows women to travel for abortion. If you believe that abortion is murder (its not) and you idly stand by and watch women travelling to England to get one, you are essentially complicit in what you believe to be the murder of ~4000 Irish "babies" each year.

Care to tell me when you think life begins?

I am crushingly disappointed by the debate around this. We should have widespread, safe and free access to contraception and sex ed. We should as a society be focused on preventing unwanted pregnancies first and foremost.

I completely agree with you on the sex ed etc thing. That doesn't mean it has to be one or the other. The debate (and I'm not sure why it should even be a debate) you talk about should be happening separate to the referendum debate, not as part of it.

In your opinion, for me they are linked.

Care to say when life begins?

Duff Paddy wrote: Save the philosophy debates for the arts block, unanswerable questions like that don’t contribute to moving this forward

Mullet 2 wrote:Over populated world?

How many kids have you?

Duff Paddy wrote:

JoeyFantastic wrote:

CM11 wrote:

JoeyFantastic wrote:

Jumper wrote:I hope that any No voters will also be seeking to repeal the 13th ammendment which allows women to travel for abortion. If you believe that abortion is murder (its not) and you idly stand by and watch women travelling to England to get one, you are essentially complicit in what you believe to be the murder of ~4000 Irish "babies" each year.

Care to tell me when you think life begins?

I am crushingly disappointed by the debate around this. We should have widespread, safe and free access to contraception and sex ed. We should as a society be focused on preventing unwanted pregnancies first and foremost.

I completely agree with you on the sex ed etc thing. That doesn't mean it has to be one or the other. The debate (and I'm not sure why it should even be a debate) you talk about should be happening separate to the referendum debate, not as part of it.

In your opinion, for me they are linked.

Care to say when life begins?

Save the philosophy debates for the arts block, unanswerable questions like that don’t contribute to moving this forward

JoeyFantastic wrote:

Duff Paddy wrote: Save the philosophy debates for the arts block, unanswerable questions like that don’t contribute to moving this forward

For yourself maybe, for me it's the fundamental question.

JoeyFantastic wrote:

Conservative Eddie wrote:

JoeyFantastic wrote:

Jumper wrote:I hope that any No voters will also be seeking to repeal the 13th ammendment which allows women to travel for abortion. If you believe that abortion is murder (its not) and you idly stand by and watch women travelling to England to get one, you are essentially complicit in what you believe to be the murder of ~4000 Irish "babies" each year.

Care to tell me when you think life begins?

I am crushingly disappointed by the debate around this. We should have widespread, safe and free access to contraception and sex ed. We should as a society be focused on preventing unwanted pregnancies first and foremost.

When do you think life begins?

Even with good access to contraception and sex ed we're still going to have thousands of abortions every year. Women will opt for abortions and these women will often be well educated and well informed - use contraception etc. It's a bit of a myth that it's just ill-educated and disadvantaged women getting abortions. Married middle-class women get them too with the support of their husbands for perfectly sane and rational reasons, which ought to be no one else's business but theirs.

Honestly I'm not sure.

Duff Paddy wrote:

JoeyFantastic wrote:

Duff Paddy wrote: Save the philosophy debates for the arts block, unanswerable questions like that don’t contribute to moving this forward

For yourself maybe, for me it's the fundamental question.

Only if you’re willing to completely discount the autonomy of the pregnant woman, which I’m guessing you are.

JoeyFantastic wrote:

Duff Paddy wrote:

JoeyFantastic wrote:

Duff Paddy wrote: Save the philosophy debates for the arts block, unanswerable questions like that don’t contribute to moving this forward

For yourself maybe, for me it's the fundamental question.

Only if you’re willing to completely discount the autonomy of the pregnant woman, which I’m guessing you are.

Not so, it is a question of competing rights.

Duff Paddy wrote:

JoeyFantastic wrote:

Duff Paddy wrote:

JoeyFantastic wrote:

Duff Paddy wrote: Save the philosophy debates for the arts block, unanswerable questions like that don’t contribute to moving this forward

For yourself maybe, for me it's the fundamental question.

Only if you’re willing to completely discount the autonomy of the pregnant woman, which I’m guessing you are.

Not so, it is a question of competing rights.

Undoubtedly

Duff Paddy wrote:Okay now you’ve gone back to square one again. As I said unanswerable.

CM11 wrote:

Mullet 2 wrote:Over populated world?

How many kids have you?

One of life's many contradictions.

Mullet 2 wrote:

CM11 wrote:

Mullet 2 wrote:Over populated world?

How many kids have you?

One of life's many contradictions.

A few abortions help balance it out I suppose

CM11 wrote:

Mullet 2 wrote:

CM11 wrote:

Mullet 2 wrote:Over populated world?

How many kids have you?

One of life's many contradictions.

A few abortions help balance it out I suppose

CM11 wrote:I've yet to get a straight answer from those who think abortion when it's rape/incest is ok but otherwise it's killing a baby. I can just about understand people thinking abortion due to FFA is ok but not in any other instances but I presume these people also back voluntary euthanasia.

I get those who just point blank think aborting a fertilised egg is murder and I respect, but disagree, with that stance.

Mullet 2 wrote:Duff doesn't want to tell you when life begins.

Because he frankly doesn't care when that is.

If he gives an opinion on when life begins he limits when it's allowed end. Far better to not ask these questions and avoid grief from the missus.

Mullet 2 wrote:

CM11 wrote:

Mullet 2 wrote:

CM11 wrote:

Mullet 2 wrote:Over populated world?

How many kids have you?

One of life's many contradictions.

A few abortions help balance it out I suppose

It's an over populated world.

Abortions are your carbon credits

I get those who just point blank think aborting a fertilised egg is murder and I respect, but disagree, with that stance.

Mullet 2 wrote:

CM11 wrote:I've yet to get a straight answer from those who think abortion when it's rape/incest is ok but otherwise it's killing a baby. I can just about understand people thinking abortion due to FFA is ok but not in any other instances but I presume these people also back voluntary euthanasia.

I get those who just point blank think aborting a fertilised egg is murder and I respect, but disagree, with that stance.

Euthanasia?

It's like legions of strawmen

Conservative Eddie wrote:

I get those who just point blank think aborting a fertilised egg is murder and I respect, but disagree, with that stance.

I don't. A significant percentage - it could be half - of all fetilized eggs don't get implanted in the uterus. They get removed during the menstruation.

Millions if not billions of "murders" playing out on sanitary pads every day.