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How would/will you vote in a referendum?
Keep the law as it stands. 21%  21%  [ 30 ]
Repeal the 8th. 79%  79%  [ 116 ]
Total votes : 146
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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 5:09 pm 
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Mullet 2 wrote:
I genuinely have no idea what you're on about there.


Fairly clear, remove the 8th and the government can legislate at any stage for what they want. It's been discussed before that other countries essentially lied to remove the constitutional protection and then brought in more liberal abortion laws soon after.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 5:11 pm 
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Your whole supposition of my opinion is ridiculous and I'm not going to bog myself down in one of your merry-go-rounds.

Your point about voting solely on the amendment and not the legislation is complete idiocy.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 5:13 pm 
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Mullet 2 wrote:
Your whole supposition of my opinion is ridiculous and I'm not going to bog myself down in one of your merry-go-rounds.

Your point about voting solely on the amendment and not the legislation is complete idiocy.


Supposition? You've already admitted you're a hypocrite on the subject of rape. At least admitting that is to be respected but it's fairly hard to believe your line that a foetus is a baby from early on when you're then willing to abandon protection for said foetus/baby.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 5:15 pm 
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:lol: :lol:

Watch out Statto is on the charge.

I'm sure all of this makes sense in your head.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 5:18 pm 
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Mullet 2 wrote:
:lol: :lol:

Watch out Statto is on the charge.

I'm sure all of this makes sense in your head.


The position of people who support abortion for rape but otherwise argue that it's killing a baby? No, no that doesn't make any sense in my head and no one has even tried to put forward an argument to justify that position.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 5:19 pm 
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It's very simple Statto.

The woman has been raped.

I'm glad I could clear up the difference for you.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 5:22 pm 
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I'm now being attacked for supporting abortion

We're through the looking glass here people.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 5:29 pm 
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Mullet 2 wrote:
I'm now being attacked for supporting abortion

We're through the looking glass here people.


:lol:

Yep, that's what you're doing on this thread.

Look, you've admitted you're a hypocrite for your stance on rape. At least own that, ffs.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 5:31 pm 
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And I'm being attacked by a lad talking about overpopulation who's got more kids than the Ma and Da in My Left Foot!


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 5:32 pm 
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Mullet 2 wrote:
And I'm being attacked by a lad talking about overpopulation who's got more kids than the Ma and Da in My Left Foot!


And I've admitted I'm a hypocrite for that position.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 6:56 pm 
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So we're all hypocrites then.

Hop down off that high horse you tried to mount.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 7:02 pm 
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Mullet 2 wrote:
So we're all hypocrites then.

Hop down off that high horse you tried to mount.


My view on overpopulation v my own circumstances has little to do with my position on reflection because that would suggest my position was anything other than one of pro choice. Which it isn't. I mentioned it as an aside a while back but I'm not trying to justify my position by saying that the world needs fewer babies. I'm firmly pro choice, that's all there is to it really.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 7:42 pm 
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Mullet 2 wrote:
It's so impossible it's already been done. :lol:

Not that I give a fúck about some mouthy cúnt who spends his time virtue signalling on a rugby board.

#metoo #ibelieveher #notmycaption

Who is the caption of Ireland?


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:56 am 
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Green bin out last night. This morning I saw that the lid was open and a partially cut up together4yes poster was after being put in there. That's the second one now.

Going to suggest to the missus that I repair it and put it up on our property instead of the lamppost where it was.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:04 am 
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Uncle Fester wrote:
Green bin out last night. This morning I saw that the lid was open and a partially cut up together4yes poster was after being put in there. That's the second one now.

Going to suggest to the missus that I repair it and put it up on our property instead of the lamppost where it was.


The poster was aborted. :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:36 am 
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Ewinkum wrote:
Uncle Fester wrote:
Green bin out last night. This morning I saw that the lid was open and a partially cut up together4yes poster was after being put in there. That's the second one now.

Going to suggest to the missus that I repair it and put it up on our property instead of the lamppost where it was.


The poster was aborted. :shock:

Love both pieces in my green bin.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:18 am 
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What can you do about posters that are misleading or outright lies? Couple round my way with "Abortion is Horrific at 6 Months! Vote No". I'm sure we agree partly on the first part but it's irrelevant to the referendum.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:20 am 
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I find the car stickers the strangest one.
Whether it’s a yes or a love both, you might as well have a sticker that says key mat car all over please.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:54 am 
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Liathroidigloine wrote:
Anyway, that's me out of the debate. I'm a no voter who would have been a yes voter if the Government hadn't jumped the shark and gone with the extremists.


You're one of the extremists, too. Almost every post you've made on this subject is about how repealing the 8th will open the floodgates down the line or that people (women) can't be trusted.
Talk about taking the worst possible outcome and just running with it.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 10:06 am 
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Nolanator wrote:
Liathroidigloine wrote:
Anyway, that's me out of the debate. I'm a no voter who would have been a yes voter if the Government hadn't jumped the shark and gone with the extremists.


You're one of the extremists, too. Almost every post you've made on this subject is about how repealing the 8th will open the floodgates down the line or that people (women) can't be trusted.
Talk about taking the worst possible outcome and just running with it.


He was in his hole ever in favour of repealing.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 10:20 am 
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Nolanator wrote:
Liathroidigloine wrote:
Anyway, that's me out of the debate. I'm a no voter who would have been a yes voter if the Government hadn't jumped the shark and gone with the extremists.


You're one of the extremists, too. Almost every post you've made on this subject is about how repealing the 8th will open the floodgates down the line or that people (women) can't be trusted.
Talk about taking the worst possible outcome and just running with it.

Gloine is either deeply foolish or actively mendacious tbh.

I've no issue with Mullet or whoever being a pro-lifer - albeit I disagree fundamentally with their position - but this "oh I would have voted for [SERIOUS POLITICAL ISSUE] but somebody was mean to me" is such a cowardly and deceitful cop-out.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 10:28 am 
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A man who constantly repeated his base position of "there will be no protections for the unborn in the constitution if it's repealed" doesn't fit a man who wanted to repeal either. At least be honest here.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:22 am 
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I’ve finally figured out how to deal with the door to door people. You have to hand it to them they have brass necks. “Which way will you be voting?” I used to say that it was none of their business but this just prolongs the pain. Now I look for the Tá or No badge and just say don’t worry, you have my vote. This gets them to fudge off in double time. Happy days


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:55 am 
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Leinsterman wrote:
Nolanator wrote:
Liathroidigloine wrote:
Anyway, that's me out of the debate. I'm a no voter who would have been a yes voter if the Government hadn't jumped the shark and gone with the extremists.


You're one of the extremists, too. Almost every post you've made on this subject is about how repealing the 8th will open the floodgates down the line or that people (women) can't be trusted.
Talk about taking the worst possible outcome and just running with it.


He was in his hole ever in favour of repealing.


Oh, I know. Wear your position with pride and try and debate it with some logic, as Mullet is.
LG has his position and is using very deceitful logic and reasoning to retrospectively justify his stance.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 12:20 pm 
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Duff Paddy wrote:
I’ve finally figured out how to deal with the door to door people. You have to hand it to them they have brass necks. “Which way will you be voting?” I used to say that it was none of their business but this just prolongs the pain. Now I look for the Tá or No badge and just say don’t worry, you have my vote. This gets them to fudge off in double time. Happy days


Were any of them giving you grief initially?


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:40 pm 
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Now who's scaremongering

http://www.thejournal.ie/varadkar-abortion-pills-prosecution-4013432-May2018/?amp=1


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:28 pm 
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Mullet, as a matter of interest have you been talking to anyone who has been out canvassing? Any insight into any straw polls regarding Yes/No %s?


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:32 pm 
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I think it's going to be a yes but I'm hearing all sorts of mixed stuff.

Yes mates saying very positive in Dublin
No mates saying that working class Dublin is far more split.

Both saying it's very bitter.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:33 pm 
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Mullet 2 wrote:


Saw that. He really is an absolute dope.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:34 pm 
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Mullet 2 wrote:
I think it's going to be a yes but I'm hearing all sorts of mixed stuff.

Yes mates saying very positive in Dublin
No mates saying that working class Dublin is far more split.

Both saying it's very bitter.


Herself has been out canvassing in Palmerston and Lucan the last week or so.
Said it seemed to be a clear Yes in some areas but oder to a 50:50 in areas with older people, e.g. Palmerston.
Been quick amicable so far but different demographics compared to your neck of the woods.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:36 pm 
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TBF the nasty stuff is more countrywide than any one area.

I know one girl spat at as I said and another lad roughed up while out putting up posters.

But its still all very Irish.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 6:04 pm 
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Mullet 2 wrote:

Not really scare mongering its happening up here and medical professionals are reporting patients to the police.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 6:13 pm 
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etherman wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:

Not really scare mongering its happening up here and medical professionals are reporting patients to the police.


It is yeah, very clear case of it really.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:28 pm 
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Mullet 2 wrote:
I think it's going to be a yes but I'm hearing all sorts of mixed stuff.

Yes mates saying very positive in Dublin
No mates saying that working class Dublin is far more split.

Both saying it's very bitter.

I've heard the latter alright.

Also heard that a lot of the canvassers are really scared to say that, as it doesn't really make for a nice news story.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:29 pm 
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well if we do vote no then you would expect something to change with that old law.

it would be very odd for a no vote to end up with nothing being with them


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:05 pm 
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Interesting article from patsy mcgarry in the IT today, even for a godless heathen like myself https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/abor ... -1.3495998
Quote:
Abortion debate: When does the human person come into being?
Opinion: Were they around today, theologians of the past could be excommunicated
Tue, May 15, 2018, 13:53
Patsy McGarry

Where is the unborn person in current debate on the Eighth Amendment referendum? Indeed, where has the unborn person been in any of the five referendums we have had to date in Ireland on abortion?

We have heard lots about human life but what of the evolving human person which, it is reasonable to expect, ought to be at the very centre of these discussion on abortion?

The truth – where both pro-life and pro-choice supporters are concerned – is that the unborn person has become a non- person in this debate, and in a very literal sense. It makes no sense.

Even where our churches and/or our other faith groupings in Ireland are concerned, the unborn person has ceased to exist in the context of abortion. It was not always so.

In all the many statements issued by Catholic and Church of Ireland bishops on the Eighth Amendment referendum to date just one has addressed, if obliquely, this very central issue.

In a letter to his diocese on April 12th last the Church of Ireland Bishop of Limerick and Killaloe Kenneth Kearon noted that: “The Bible certainly speaks of life in the womb before birth (Ps 139. 13-14, Luke 1.41-45, Psalm 22. 9-10, and many other references), but none of these seek to identify the moment when life begins, and do not say that life begins at conception.”

He continued: “When we look to the traditional teachers of the church, St Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas for example, we find speculation about the beginning of life, often equating it with ensoulment (when the soul enters the body) or with the time when the mother first ‘feels life’ or movement, all of which are stages long after conception has taken place.”

Modern biology “which recognises that very many conceptions do not continue on through the various stages of development to become births but are ‘lost’, does appear to support this line of thinking also,” he said.


There Bishop Kearon was referring to the scientific finding that up to 55 per cent of ova (eggs) that have been fertilised are miscarried soon afterwards.

Why is he the only Church leader in Ireland to raise this hugely important matter of the unborn person, so very central to any debate on abortion? Why is it not being discussed either people who hold pro-life or pro-choice views on abortion?

Where has the unborn person gone?

Abortion Q&A: What will happen after you vote in the referendum?
Abortion legislation: the really contentious bits
Abortion: The Facts
Next year will mark the 150th anniversary of its disappearance from Catholic Church teaching on abortion. For the greater part of its 2,000 year history until 1869, it taught that no homicide was involved if abortion took place before the foetus was infused with a soul. “Ensoulment” was the word used to describe this. Some of the greatest theologians in the Christian tradition held this view. They taught that ensoulment took place at “quickening”, when the mother detected the child move inside her womb for the first time.

In 1591, Pope Gregory XIV determined that quickening took place at 166 days of pregnancy, almost 24 weeks. He said that, prior to quickening, “no homicide” was involved if abortion took place.

However, in 1869 Pope Pius IX outlawed abortion from the moment of conception under penalty of excommunication.

It means that, were they around today, some of the church’s most eminent thinkers could face excommunication. These include at least three of the 34 Catholic Church “super saints” – Jerome, Augustine and Aquinas – all of them “Doctors of the Church”.

It has been argued by contemporary church apologists that those saints did not have knowledge of the discovery of the ovum in 1827 and of the human fertilisation process in the 1830s.Then, as they put it, such saints would have known that human life began at conception.

But the issue was not about when human life began. It never was. Those saints did not dispute that human life began at conception. Their uncertainty concerned when the life of the human person began.

They did not believe that human life had a soul at conception but held it did not become a human person until ensoulment took place.

In Catholic teaching definitions of the person tend to be derived from the 5th century philosopher/theologian Boëthius who held that a person was “an individual substance of a rational nature.” The key words being “individual” and “rational”.

Commenting on this definition St Thomas Aquinas concluded it applied to human beings because they are separate from one another, thus they are individuals, and because they are rational, that is, they “have control over their own actions and are not only acted upon as are all other beings, but act of their own initiative”.

He said, “the mere presence of the intellective soul is sufficient for personhood.” His ideas of initiative and rationality have been carried over into the concept of person as employed today by bioethicists and philosophers when they use the term “consciousness”.

Aquinas and those other saints prior to 1869 did not believe that a collection of biochemical elements with potential, such as found in the fertilised ovum, was a person.

They sought evidence of emerging consciousness. In those pre-scientific days they settled on quickening as the great indicator of that.

St Jerome (died 420) wrote, in his Epistle, “the seed gradually takes shape in the uterus, and it does not count as killing until the individual elements have acquired their external appearance and their limbs”.

St Augustine (died 430) wrote in On Exodus that early abortion should not be regarded “as homicide, for there cannot be a living soul in a body that lacks sensation due to its not yet being fully formed”.


St Thomas Aquinas (died 1274) held “the vegetative soul, which comes first, when the embryo lives the life of a plant, is corrupted, and is succeeded by a more perfect soul, which is both nutritive and sensitive, and then the embryo lives an animal life; and when this is corrupted, it is succeeded by the rational soul introduced from without (ie by God)”.

This view of Aquinas was confirmed as Catholic teaching by the Council of Vienne in 1312, and has never been officially repudiated by Rome.

Indeed, as recently as 1974 the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith acknowledged that the issue of ensoulment was still an open question.

In 1990 American moral theologian the late Fr Richard Mc McCormick SJ wrote that the pre-embryo not being a human person is “solidly probable”.

Other theologians have since supported this view based on the high wastage that occurs in ova soon after fertilisation and which they have concluded argues against the probability of ensoulment at that stage.

To do otherwise would be to suggest that more than half of ensouled humanity lived for a matter of hours only, which they believed unreasonable to conclude.

Augustine, Aquinas and others held to their belief in delayed ensoulment on the basis that a human soul could be infused by God only when the body had reached an adequate level of development during pregnancy.

Regardless, the issue in this debate is not when human life begins, that is undisputed. What is at issue is when, during pregnancy, the human person comes into being. It is what we ought to be discussing in this debate.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 8:44 am 
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did anyone listen to the newstalk debate from Galway yesterday? That was fairly interesting.

The women from the Iona institute was also on with Ivan yates earlier in the day. She seems like a fierce and fairly effective debater, but my god does she love interrupting people, claiming the victim role and being evasive ("the other side never gets asked hard questions, I am happy to answer hard questions", before she proceeds to evade the question), the best one was where she said she was happy to answer a question but only on 2 conditions, those conditions were that the yes side had to answer 2 questions and if they didnt answer them in the way she wanted there was no point debating with them! classic strawman, she would do well on this board.

I remember her from around the time of the peoples assembly saying that the way the debate was framed was biased. I cant decide if she is a liability or a positive to the no campaign. TBF I have only heard her debate and not seen her, that can of course make a difference.

The best one liners were from the obstetrician on the yes team putting down the male GP on the no team by reminding him that she taught him about fatal foetal abnormalities at UCD, great way to say I know more than you junior. Another good line was from the Iona institute women after the lawyer for the yes team had been discussing downs syndrome, she quickly interjected with they are children with down syndrome, not downs sydrome children, a smart way of saying that she knows and cares more.

Overall I think that the no team come across with more certainty in their position (to be expected really when its a moral/conviction issue for someone), they seem to have less hesitation in delivery of their points, this is always effective in politics, just give your view of the 'truth' sound convincing, double down when challenged etc (have they hired some brexit strategists to advise?).

The yes team were more open in admitting the world insnt black and white and for that reason come across as less certain, which can be a dangerous thing in political debates.


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 8:54 am 
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Who the fúck are the Iona institute anyway? They seem to always pop up in these discussions, but who do they actually represent?


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 8:57 am 
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Right wing fundamentalist christians (with a heavy emphasis on catholic christianity), with scant regard to truth or decency


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 Post subject: Re: Repealing the 8th
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 8:58 am 
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Diego wrote:
Who the fúck are the Iona institute anyway? They seem to always pop up in these discussions, but who do they actually represent?


Catholic think tank

https://ionainstitute.ie/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iona_Institute


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