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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:02 am 
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So here it is, the official Westworld Thread (TV show, not film). The only rule is, no hiding of spoilers...if you haven't seen the latest episode, don't come in here!












Right, so here are the current list of fan theories/issues to discuss:

The story is shown across multiple timelines - Not entirely confirmed
The Man in Black is William - Not confirmed
Bernard is a host - Confirmed
Bernard is a host version of Arnold - Not confirmed
What's the Maze - Not confirmed
The boards real agenda - Not confirmed
What is Ford actually up to - Not confirmed


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:17 am 
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A Comet free zone :thumbup:

More questions / theories:

What happened to Elsie? The fact Bernard (and therefore perhaps Ford) are looking for her suggests it wasn't them that took her. Is there someone else in the Park, not from the Delos or Ford sides?

Dolores - So the diagram suggests she is one of Ford's privately made robots but she's also clearly an official host too.

What happened 30 years ago that almost destroyed the park? I'm guessing it was robot safety malfunction, leading to the death of a guest (Logan, perhaps killed by Dolores) and that William helps cover it up - both allowing him to become the powerful corporate man and gaining the eternal special park privileges that the MIB enjoys. There's also something of an allegorical "fall" if the white hat William loses his innocence and becomes the black hat.

Is Delos's end game the replacement of specific real world people with controllable androids?

What happened on those lower levels that has left them an LV-426 like ruin?

You just know that creepy freezer of cold storage "livestock" is going to play a sinister part in all of this at some stage.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:59 am 
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Quote:
Dolores - So the diagram suggests she is one of Ford's privately made robots but she's also clearly an official host too.

What happened 30 years ago that almost destroyed the park? I'm guessing it was robot safety malfunction, leading to the death of a guest (Logan, perhaps killed by Dolores) and that William helps cover it up - both allowing him to become the powerful corporate man and gaining the eternal special park privileges that the MIB enjoys. There's also something of an allegorical "fall" if the white hat William loses his innocence and becomes the black hat.


My theory regarding the potential 'White Hat Willie turns into The Man in Black' is that after falling in love with Delores while Delores becomes sentient, some epic shit goes down, and Ford factory resets her. This obviously devastates William, and he spends the next 30 years trying to find the centre of maze that will allow Delores to become sentient again.

What I don't like about the Willie = Man in Black is that it requires you to believe that a man that fell in love with a women will eventually be happy brutilising her 30 years later (obvious mitigating factors notwithstanding). Shades of Iain M Banks' Use of Weapons, which had similar themes that I also had a hard time believing.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:08 am 
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Jeff the Bear wrote:

What I don't like about the Willie = Man in Black is that it requires you to believe that a man that fell in love with a women will eventually be happy brutilising her 30 years later (obvious mitigating factors notwithstanding). Shades of Iain M Banks' Use of Weapons, which had similar themes that I also had a hard time believing.


All we actually saw was him dragging her into the barn, we don't know what happened then. And given that she's apparently then had something of a re-awakening (slapping the fly, regaining her ability to shoot) afterwards, it's entirely possible he was attempting to trigger her sentience rather than brutalizing her.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:15 am 
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Jay Cee Gee wrote:
Jeff the Bear wrote:

What I don't like about the Willie = Man in Black is that it requires you to believe that a man that fell in love with a women will eventually be happy brutilising her 30 years later (obvious mitigating factors notwithstanding). Shades of Iain M Banks' Use of Weapons, which had similar themes that I also had a hard time believing.


All we actually saw was him dragging her into the barn, we don't know what happened then. And given that she's apparently then had something of a re-awakening (slapping the fly, regaining her ability to shoot) afterwards, it's entirely possible he was attempting to trigger her sentience rather than brutalizing her.


Fair point. I couldn't quite remember the scene. I knew he dragged her in there.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:20 am 
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Jeff the Bear wrote:
Jay Cee Gee wrote:
Jeff the Bear wrote:

What I don't like about the Willie = Man in Black is that it requires you to believe that a man that fell in love with a women will eventually be happy brutilising her 30 years later (obvious mitigating factors notwithstanding). Shades of Iain M Banks' Use of Weapons, which had similar themes that I also had a hard time believing.


All we actually saw was him dragging her into the barn, we don't know what happened then. And given that she's apparently then had something of a re-awakening (slapping the fly, regaining her ability to shoot) afterwards, it's entirely possible he was attempting to trigger her sentience rather than brutalizing her.


Fair point. I couldn't quite remember the scene. I knew he dragged her in there.



Yeah, at the time it was set up to look like he'd raped or beaten her, given that Not Trevor was going to (before she shot him) and that that storyline seemed to be set up for guests playing black hat, but I think it was a bit of misdirection.

The William/MIB has been set up so much (eg both picking up the can instead of Teddy - who I'm assuming is based off William's role in the past - the comments on getting lost in stories and wanting to know the end etc).

My real question is what is happening with present day Dolores? How much of the scenes we're seeing of her are in the past and how much are present day?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:21 am 
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Quote:
What happened to Elsie? The fact Bernard (and therefore perhaps Ford) are looking for her suggests it wasn't them that took her. Is there someone else in the Park, not from the Delos or Ford sides?


Another theory may be that, further to the above, it's the Man in Black that is instigating all this (been working at if for 30 years after all). He's been sneaking out data so that he could then replicate whatever happened when Arnold started allowing the robots to become sentient 30 years previously. As such, one of his cohorts has Elsie.

Makes more sense however that it's someone working for Delos that are trying to sneak out the info, but if that was the case, then Ford should have questioned Theresa as to where Elsie is (or maybe, he just doesn't give a shit what happens to her. He has bigger plans).


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:24 am 
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Jay Cee Gee wrote:
Jeff the Bear wrote:

What I don't like about the Willie = Man in Black is that it requires you to believe that a man that fell in love with a women will eventually be happy brutilising her 30 years later (obvious mitigating factors notwithstanding). Shades of Iain M Banks' Use of Weapons, which had similar themes that I also had a hard time believing.


All we actually saw was him dragging her into the barn, we don't know what happened then. And given that she's apparently then had something of a re-awakening (slapping the fly, regaining her ability to shoot) afterwards, it's entirely possible he was attempting to trigger her sentience rather than brutalizing her.


Yes. That scene and the resemblance to Yul Brenner looks like misdirection to have us think he is the series villain when in fact he is the series hero.

It's a good theory that MIB is searching for the center of the maze to trigger Dolores's sentience once more. Also if Teddy is essentially the robot version of William then having him be MIB's partner on that search is quite nice too.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:28 am 
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village wrote:
.

It's a good theory that MIB is searching for the center of the maze to trigger Dolores's sentience once more. Also if Teddy is essentially the robot version of William then having him be MIB's partner on that search is quite nice too.


I have a theory that Teddy is the host version of William and is essentially there to keep Dolores in her loop.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:42 am 
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Jay Cee Gee wrote:
village wrote:
.

It's a good theory that MIB is searching for the center of the maze to trigger Dolores's sentience once more. Also if Teddy is essentially the robot version of William then having him be MIB's partner on that search is quite nice too.


I have a theory that Teddy is the host version of William and is essentially there to keep Dolores in her loop.


And why is Dolores special enough to warrant a robot minder? I guess the answer would be that she has wandered from her loop before in ways other bots have not and yet is not decommissioned for one reason or another (because someone wants to grow robot sentience or because someone like William has the power to compel the park to keep her).

Assuming two time lines, all the Dolores scenes since she arrived at William's campfire have been in the past. We don't know what has been happening with modern Dolores since she broke programming and shot GTA Trevor, other than she is not in her loop with Teddy (because he is off with MIB). Is she the person who grabbed Elsie?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:47 am 
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village wrote:
Jay Cee Gee wrote:
village wrote:
.

It's a good theory that MIB is searching for the center of the maze to trigger Dolores's sentience once more. Also if Teddy is essentially the robot version of William then having him be MIB's partner on that search is quite nice too.


I have a theory that Teddy is the host version of William and is essentially there to keep Dolores in her loop.


And why is Dolores special enough to warrant a robot minder? I guess the answer would be that she has wandered from her loop before in ways other bots have not and yet is not decommissioned for one reason or another (because someone wants to grow robot sentience or because someone like William has the power to compel the park to keep her).

Assuming two time lines, all the Dolores scenes since she arrived at William's campfire have been in the past. We don't know what has been happening with modern Dolores since she broke programming and shot GTA Trevor, other than she is not in her loop with Teddy (because he is off with MIB). Is she the person who grabbed Elsie?


Well, we know Dolores is special in that she's the oldest host still in use at the park. Although, given there were Dolores plans in that secret room, she may not be the original Dolores. Now, as to why this is so...2 theories.

1) We know she was present when Arnold died. Ford may keep her around for this reason.

2) If William saves the park, he may have made it a condition that Dolores is kept in service.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:49 am 
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Also, there's a theory that Dolores in the present is retracing her steps from the past with William.

There's been a couple of shots where William/Logan/Lawrence either appear from thin air or disappear between shots. If she's basically hallucinating them, this would explain that.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:58 am 
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Some good gifs:

Image

Image

I've just read that the picture in the second one has a nice space on the far right for another person, a person that Bernard can't see because it's him (which goes back to the chat on the other thread).


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:18 am 
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Quote:
1) We know she was present when Arnold died. Ford may keep her around for this reason.


Do we?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:27 am 
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village wrote:
Quote:
1) We know she was present when Arnold died. Ford may keep her around for this reason.


Do we?


Ford asked her about it in an interrogation thing.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:34 am 
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Jay Cee Gee wrote:
village wrote:
Quote:
1) We know she was present when Arnold died. Ford may keep her around for this reason.


Do we?


Ford asked her about it in an interrogation thing.


:thumbup: Getting hard to keep track of it all.

There's some seriously impressive plate spinning going on by Nolan and co. Very reminiscent of what he did with Memento, Prestige etc. but it's been sustained already over a much longer period.

I'm also curious about the significance of the buried church. We see its steeple where Ford is currently working on his new narrative but we've seen it in Dolores flashbacks as a complete building.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:47 am 
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Great thread - useful to pull some thoughts together.

Anyone got any ideas about how Maeve's flashbacks fit in? Other than triggering her current escape plans, I mean. I was initially surprised to see "Injuns" pop up and attack in the William/Dolores thread, as Ford's reaction to the proposed new narrative from the art guy was so negative about having them in the park, plus we know from Maeve's flashbacks they're part of an old narrative.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:54 am 
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Lady P wrote:
Great thread - useful to pull some thoughts together.

Anyone got any ideas about how Maeve's flashbacks fit in? Other than triggering her current escape plans, I mean. I was initially surprised to see "Injuns" pop up and attack in the William/Dolores thread, as Ford's reaction to the proposed new narrative from the art guy was so negative about having them in the park, plus we know from Maeve's flashbacks they're part of an old narrative.


Uh...I thought Meave's storyline was in the present.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:56 am 
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Jeff the Bear wrote:
Lady P wrote:
Great thread - useful to pull some thoughts together.

Anyone got any ideas about how Maeve's flashbacks fit in? Other than triggering her current escape plans, I mean. I was initially surprised to see "Injuns" pop up and attack in the William/Dolores thread, as Ford's reaction to the proposed new narrative from the art guy was so negative about having them in the park, plus we know from Maeve's flashbacks they're part of an old narrative.


Uh...I thought Meave's storyline was in the present.


As a madam, yes - but we know she was previously in another narrative.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:00 am 
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We don't really know enough to tell whether her flashbacks are significant or whether they're just showing her accessing old memories. Probably will be something significant though.

On the subject of those memories, we saw Teddy remembering slaughtering innocents with Wyatt (I think that's his name, the cult leader guy) which I don't think ever actually happened, it's just part of his new backstory. I don't think we'd ever seen invented memories depicted before, though in retrospect Bernard's dream and perhaps even his conversation with his wife may have been similar.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:01 am 
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Also, I never quite worked out what was going on with her nightmare of the person attacking her turning into the MIB.

Could well be me being slow, I'm oddly bad at applying the same brain power to TV as I can to other things.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:07 am 
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Jay Cee Gee wrote:
We don't really know enough to tell whether her flashbacks are significant or whether they're just showing her accessing old memories. Probably will be something significant though.

On the subject of those memories, we saw Teddy remembering slaughtering innocents with Wyatt (I think that's his name, the cult leader guy) which I don't think ever actually happened, it's just part of his new backstory. I don't think we'd ever seen invented memories depicted before, though in retrospect Bernard's dream and perhaps even his conversation with his wife may have been similar.


After the last episode, the dream is obviously an invention (although, another twist may be that Bernard/Ford have found a way to copy memories from real humans?).


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:28 am 
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Another good Reddit discussion / theory:

Quote:
Let us assume that the first time sentience 'self-evolved' in Westworld was when Dolores completed the maze thirty years ago. This was the first time that sentience had 'self-evolved' in an electro-mechanical host.

Let us assume that the second time that sentience will 'self-evolve' will be when Maeve completes the maze, thirty years later. This will be the first time that sentience will have 'self-evolved' in an organic host.

During Dolores's 'maze run' she met William, who fell in love with her. See [Theory] Westworld is love story: https://www.reddit.com/r/westworld/comm ... h=43ffff5d

Dolores then succeeded, and reached the centre of the maze. Dolores was then fully sentient, but sadly that did not last for long. Dolores' sentience was then turned off, most probably by Robert Ford, not because he is inherently evil but because it did not fit in with his plans. See [Theory] Westworld is different things to different people: https://www.reddit.com/r/westworld/comm ... h=422f835a

The 'loss' of his Dolores (eventually) turned William into the Man in Black (MIB).

The MIB is now on a 'quest' to find his Dolores, who is now held/stored at the centre of the maze, and this quest is very likely to conflict with Maeve's 'maze run'.

The ultimate purpose of the maze is to evolve a better AI, which will then replace the previous best AI. So if Maeve completes the maze her AI will replace Dolores. Dolores will be erased in the process and the MIB will not allow this to happen.

So if the MIB saves his Dolores then Maeve will fail and probably be reset or erased, and if Maeve succeeds then Dolores will be erased and the MIB will have failed.

The MIB must stop Maeve, or at the very least somehow save his Dolores before Maeve reaches the centre of the maze.
9.1 There is a possibility that the MIB and MAeve may 'team up' to get to the centre of the maze but once they arrive then it will everyone for themselves!


Maeve's role seems set on an insurrection within the control complex theme.

Also:

If hosts are supposed to not see things that could hurt them, what is the significance of Dolores's dad seeing and going mental at the picture of Time Square. That seems to be the origin of the bug that went to Dolores and on to Maeve via the phrase "These violent delights...". Seems likely to be tied up with the Arnold as ghost in the code idea.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:28 am 
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good thread :thumbup:
and some good ideas. How do people come up with those elaborate theories based on subtle bits and pieces of information is a mystery to me. Makes me question whether i'm as smart as i like to think about myself :blush:

Anyway, back on topic - with regards the different timeframes and William becoming MiB, the one thing that bothers me about that idea is the Teddy host - that seems to me to be intervowen in the narrative between Dolores, William and MiB in a way that seems to be in the same timeframe.

For example, Teddy was always with Dolores when she was returning home to find her parents murdered. He wasn't with her only after he went to look for Wyatt - and that is when she escaped and subsequently joined William. At the same time Teddy was rescued be the MiB and then joined him. It just wouldnt make much sense to me if the events described in last two sentences were 30 years apart :?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:36 am 
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I must admit, I didn't key on to Bernard being a host until he said 'what door' :blush:

It's a great show, but bummed to hear season 2 might not be until 2018. How many episodes left of this season?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:43 am 
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Zakar wrote:
I must admit, I didn't key on to Bernard being a host until he said 'what door' :blush:

It's a great show, but bummed to hear season 2 might not be until 2018. How many episodes left of this season?

10 episodes per season i think


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:23 am 
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pigaaaa wrote:
For example, Teddy was always with Dolores when she was returning home to find her parents murdered. He wasn't with her only after he went to look for Wyatt - and that is when she escaped and subsequently joined William. At the same time Teddy was rescued be the MiB and then joined him. It just wouldnt make much sense to me if the events described in last two sentences were 30 years apart :?


That's how it was shown, but it could easily be misdirection. It doesn't follow that the two scenes followed each other and it's entirely possible we don't know where Dolores was before she met William 30 years ago.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:31 am 
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Zakar wrote:
I must admit, I didn't key on to Bernard being a host until he said 'what door' :blush:

It's a great show, but bummed to hear season 2 might not be until 2018. How many episodes left of this season?

me neither, I thought the woman might be a host but never thought of Bernard


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:39 am 
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Anyone remember (I think it was episode 5) when Ford and Dolores talked and at the end she says 'He doesn't know, I didn't tell him anything'?

Who's she talking to there? Is Arnold still alive? If so, what's his endgame, to destroy the park as he had previously attempted? How does Dolores help him in that?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:47 pm 
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croyals wrote:
Anyone remember (I think it was episode 5) when Ford and Dolores talked and at the end she says 'He doesn't know, I didn't tell him anything'?

Who's she talking to there? Is Arnold still alive? If so, what's his endgame, to destroy the park as he had previously attempted? How does Dolores help him in that?


I don't think Arnold's end is to destroy the park as such, maybe to give his 'creations' free will.

I am enjoying this though.

I don't buy into all those terrible reddit theories.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:14 pm 
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Interestingly, if you go back to last episode and Maeve watching the trailer for Westworld, a few of the images come from episode 7 (Dolores looking at the green river, Ghost nation attack). Certainly adds credence to the two time period theory.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:19 pm 
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Surely a problem with the different timelines theory is that if Bernard is constant across the two of them, tech for the park has basically remained the same for 30 years whilst dealing with exponentially complex programming?

It'd be an incredibly bold narrative device to try and pull off if that's what they're doing, mind.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:35 pm 
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Brazil wrote:
Surely a problem with the different timelines theory is that if Bernard is constant across the two of them, tech for the park has basically remained the same for 30 years whilst dealing with exponentially complex programming?

It'd be an incredibly bold narrative device to try and pull off if that's what they're doing, mind.


That's my problem with it to. How have none of thr staff noticed their colleague named Bernard failing to age for 35 years?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:12 pm 
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Zakar wrote:
Brazil wrote:
Surely a problem with the different timelines theory is that if Bernard is constant across the two of them, tech for the park has basically remained the same for 30 years whilst dealing with exponentially complex programming?

It'd be an incredibly bold narrative device to try and pull off if that's what they're doing, mind.


That's my problem with it to. How have none of thr staff noticed their colleague named Bernard failing to age for 35 years?


How many colleagues dream of electric sheep?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:37 pm 
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Zakar wrote:
Brazil wrote:
Surely a problem with the different timelines theory is that if Bernard is constant across the two of them, tech for the park has basically remained the same for 30 years whilst dealing with exponentially complex programming?

It'd be an incredibly bold narrative device to try and pull off if that's what they're doing, mind.


That's my problem with it to. How have none of thr staff noticed their colleague named Bernard failing to age for 35 years?

How many of the staff have been there for a long time? They all look fairly young...


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:07 pm 
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croyals wrote:
Zakar wrote:
Brazil wrote:
Surely a problem with the different timelines theory is that if Bernard is constant across the two of them, tech for the park has basically remained the same for 30 years whilst dealing with exponentially complex programming?

It'd be an incredibly bold narrative device to try and pull off if that's what they're doing, mind.


That's my problem with it to. How have none of thr staff noticed their colleague named Bernard failing to age for 35 years?

How many of the staff have been there for a long time? They all look fairly young...


Fairly, but surely not young enough not to realise something is awry.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:48 pm 
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Just started the first episode :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:17 pm 
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TV shows are a form of commitment beyond that one sitting so therefore it is no different to watching Brookside.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:35 pm 
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paneer wrote:
TV shows are a form of commitment beyond that one sitting so therefore it is no different to watching Brookside.


Brando? :shock:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:52 pm 
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I thought the two timelines are pretty much a fact not a theory anymore


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