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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:58 am 
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merlin the happy pig wrote:
Auckman wrote:
Sooooo they will be foiling monohulls won't they? Or does that just go without saying? Or nope, no foiling at all.


No doubt there will be foils.
That does not mean foiling per se.
There will be lead ballast as a 75 ft foiling moth would be insanely dangerous (but fun to watch from a distance).
Ballast means it will be unlikely we would ever see the hull out of the water.
Rumours of canting keels and movable ballast have been around as well, but movable ballast takes time to move and would be absolute shit for match racing.

I think the boats will be quite quick (for monohulls) and foil assisted with a very wide beam so the foils can provide some righting moment.

Of course racing close together with giant foils protruding from the sides of the boats is another level of dangerous compared to the multi hulls where at least the foils were between the hulls.

Can't wait to see the actual design rules.

I'm not so sure. Helmsman rolled the IACCs through tacks and I'm sure the designers will work with sailors to create a moveable ballast that shifts swiftly enough.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:05 am 
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blackblackblack wrote:
Oracle appear to have taken their bat and ball and buggered off. My heart bleeds lumpy custard.


Larry will not discuss the AC in any shape or form now. In Oracle its up there with not discussing any legal action. :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:13 am 
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Some components will be one design to keep costs down. That and protocols to encourage more than five challengers.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:57 am 
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No host city agreement yet. Goes to Italy if it remains that way. And Challenger chooses the challenger series programme.

:?

If NZ councils/govt. mess around with this who should pay for the infrastructure, then it could be completely gone from NZ. Shoot themselves in the foot.

How likely is that, non flee-wees?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:08 am 
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Yourmother wrote:
No host city agreement yet. Goes to Italy if it remains that way. And Challenger chooses the challenger series programme.

:?

If NZ councils/govt. mess around with this who should pay for the infrastructure, then it could be completely gone from NZ. Shoot themselves in the foot.

How likely is that, non flee-wees?

Knowing Auckland local government they f**k around until the last minute, ETNZ will make preparation to move to Italy, Auckland Council will pull their finger out to host, everyone but Auckland Council will do the actual work, the event will be great and Auckland Council will pat themselves on the back.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:16 am 
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So, Americas cup 36 in the Med then, where it italy is Luna Rossa's yacht club located.

Auckland council couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:17 pm 
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badmannotinjapan wrote:
WHAKA YEAH!!! 75 footers! Was hoping for 90 but it's better than the 60 I thought they were leaning towards.

If they will employ canting keels it will be interesting to see what they will come up with to really embrace the match racing concept. If it's open you may also see twin fins.


There absolutely will be canting keels. I said it earlier, and merlin alluded to it. Although they haven't specifically used the word foiling, that's where they want to get to. The canting keel moves to the windward side to aid in ballast, but also provides lift, which really only makes the boat heel more. So they add the retractable foil on the leeward side to counter that. The affect is to lift the entire boat up as much as possible, reducing the wetted surface allowing it to go faster. They are thinking they will get 35 knots out of these bad boys. Can't wait, and I may go home for a visit in March 2021 (if my liver lasts that long) to catch some racing.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:36 pm 
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blackblackblack wrote:
So, Americas cup 36 in the Med then, where it italy is Luna Rossa's yacht club located.

Auckland council couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery.


Dalton will get lynched if the racing ends up in Italy. Prolly the threat is just leverage. It would turn the Kiwi public off the AC forever after all the past shenanigans.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:07 pm 
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I'm not sure why they wouldn't look at another NZ venue before jumping over to Italy as 2nd choice. But I agree about him being lynched.

Good pic of Safran nearly out of the water. This is the base design they will use I suspect.
Spoiler: show
Image


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:06 am 
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Snooze wrote:
I'm not sure why they wouldn't look at another NZ venue before jumping over to Italy as 2nd choice. But I agree about him being lynched.

Good pic of Safran nearly out of the water. This is the base design they will use I suspect.
Spoiler: show
Image

What are they like to match race with though? Safran is reaching there so I wonder what their upwind performance will be like.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:07 am 
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The Native wrote:
Some components will be one design to keep costs down. That and protocols to encourage more than five challengers.

I doubt it will be the hulls. Why would they allow two builds?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:25 am 
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badmannotinjapan wrote:
The Native wrote:
Some components will be one design to keep costs down. That and protocols to encourage more than five challengers.

I doubt it will be the hulls. Why would they allow two builds?

It definitely could be the hulls, or part of the hulls. And the two boat build is essentially a prototype and final situation.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:15 pm 
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The Native wrote:
badmannotinjapan wrote:
The Native wrote:
Some components will be one design to keep costs down. That and protocols to encourage more than five challengers.

I doubt it will be the hulls. Why would they allow two builds?

It definitely could be the hulls, or part of the hulls. And the two boat build is essentially a prototype and final situation.

If they are one design why need two?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:27 pm 
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badmannotinjapan wrote:
Snooze wrote:
I'm not sure why they wouldn't look at another NZ venue before jumping over to Italy as 2nd choice. But I agree about him being lynched.

Good pic of Safran nearly out of the water. This is the base design they will use I suspect.
Spoiler: show
Image

What are they like to match race with though? Safran is reaching there so I wonder what their upwind performance will be like.


I don't know, but the crew would be critical:
- outrigger in
- tack
- boat speed back up
- outrigger out

The learning curve would be huge but as with the cats, you have to figure by the 2nd or 3rd iteration (or cup) they'd be nigh on foiling tacks, although not quite the same foiling heights as with the cats.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:32 pm 
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badmannotinjapan wrote:
The Native wrote:
badmannotinjapan wrote:
The Native wrote:
Some components will be one design to keep costs down. That and protocols to encourage more than five challengers.

I doubt it will be the hulls. Why would they allow two builds?

It definitely could be the hulls, or part of the hulls. And the two boat build is essentially a prototype and final situation.

If they are one design why need two?

Testing, mock races, each boat suited for different conditions, the older boat will be stressed and there's more chance of it falling apart. There are plenty of reasons.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:20 pm 
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For clarity, a question - The “one design” simply refers to specific components of the boat being of completely specified structure? So largely a non differentiator. Is that right? Or ...?

But I assume the 2 boat thing means 2 active race boats. Though, only the defender had this option last time, but didn’t exercise it.

However, many teams did have many new boats during the race to the America’s Cup. BAR had 3 I believe. Oracle had one which they donated to Team Japan. But the constraint I thought was in relation to active/standby race boats.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:03 pm 
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The Native wrote:
badmannotinjapan wrote:
The Native wrote:
badmannotinjapan wrote:
The Native wrote:
Some components will be one design to keep costs down. That and protocols to encourage more than five challengers.

I doubt it will be the hulls. Why would they allow two builds?

It definitely could be the hulls, or part of the hulls. And the two boat build is essentially a prototype and final situation.

If they are one design why need two?

Testing, mock races, each boat suited for different conditions, the older boat will be stressed and there's more chance of it falling apart. There are plenty of reasons.

But if they're trying to keep the costs down then oneDesign with 2 hulls makes little sense. We've already got the Volvo Ocean Race and a whole bunch of different oneDesign regattas. The whole charm of the America's Cup is design and development with each team entering in with a different concept. Teams are going to spend huge anyways regardless of oneDesign or not.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:20 pm 
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Yourmother wrote:
For clarity, a question - The “one design” simply refers to specific components of the boat being of completely specified structure? So largely a non differentiator. Is that right? Or ...?

But I assume the 2 boat thing means 2 active race boats. Though, only the defender had this option last time, but didn’t exercise it.

However, many teams did have many new boats during the race to the America’s Cup. BAR had 3 I believe. Oracle had one which they donated to Team Japan. But the constraint I thought was in relation to active/standby race boats.

"One design" is a term indicating a standard design with very little divergence, the premise being that each boat is identical, so that the results can be attributed to the skill and abilities of the sailor(s) rather than the design and construction of the boat. The laser is an example of a one design boat.

Obviously that isn't entirely desirable for AC boats, but I presume that there are design specifications which can be mandated to provide some sort of standardisation.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:39 pm 
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Rinkals wrote:
Yourmother wrote:
For clarity, a question - The “one design” simply refers to specific components of the boat being of completely specified structure? So largely a non differentiator. Is that right? Or ...?

But I assume the 2 boat thing means 2 active race boats. Though, only the defender had this option last time, but didn’t exercise it.

However, many teams did have many new boats during the race to the America’s Cup. BAR had 3 I believe. Oracle had one which they donated to Team Japan. But the constraint I thought was in relation to active/standby race boats.

"One design" is a term indicating a standard design with very little divergence, the premise being that each boat is identical, so that the results can be attributed to the skill and abilities of the sailor(s) rather than the design and construction of the boat. The laser is an example of a one design boat.

Obviously that isn't entirely desirable for AC boats, but I presume that there are design specifications which can be mandated to provide some sort of standardisation.

To add, the last AC with the cats was oneDesign. The hulls and wingsails were oneDesign with only the foils and operational management being allowed for individual development.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:10 am 
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badmannotinjapan wrote:
The Native wrote:
badmannotinjapan wrote:
The Native wrote:
badmannotinjapan wrote:
I doubt it will be the hulls. Why would they allow two builds?

It definitely could be the hulls, or part of the hulls. And the two boat build is essentially a prototype and final situation.

If they are one design why need two?

Testing, mock races, each boat suited for different conditions, the older boat will be stressed and there's more chance of it falling apart. There are plenty of reasons.

But if they're trying to keep the costs down then oneDesign with 2 hulls makes little sense. We've already got the Volvo Ocean Race and a whole bunch of different oneDesign regattas. The whole charm of the America's Cup is design and development with each team entering in with a different concept. Teams are going to spend huge anyways regardless of oneDesign or not.

It makes sense. If they decide on a one design hull then it saves research and development and testing time and money. The manufacture of a additional hull will be a fraction of what the R&D would cost.

And if a team could feasibly launch a boat late next year, would you expect it to last up to and through the regatta in 2021? Definitely not.

However, all this is conjecture until we learn which components will be one design.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:19 am 
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Doesn't the hull have to be cast in the origin country of the teams entry?

So, a one design hull with multiple moulds from each origin country? That doesn't sound right.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:47 am 
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sonic_attack wrote:
Doesn't the hull have to be cast in the origin country of the teams entry?

So, a one design hull with multiple moulds from each origin country? That doesn't sound right.

Yes. It has to be issued a "Constructed in the Country Certificate" by a member of the measuring committee. What doesn't sound right?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:58 am 
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badmannotinjapan wrote:
Rinkals wrote:
Yourmother wrote:
For clarity, a question - The “one design” simply refers to specific components of the boat being of completely specified structure? So largely a non differentiator. Is that right? Or ...?

But I assume the 2 boat thing means 2 active race boats. Though, only the defender had this option last time, but didn’t exercise it.

However, many teams did have many new boats during the race to the America’s Cup. BAR had 3 I believe. Oracle had one which they donated to Team Japan. But the constraint I thought was in relation to active/standby race boats.

"One design" is a term indicating a standard design with very little divergence, the premise being that each boat is identical, so that the results can be attributed to the skill and abilities of the sailor(s) rather than the design and construction of the boat. The laser is an example of a one design boat.

Obviously that isn't entirely desirable for AC boats, but I presume that there are design specifications which can be mandated to provide some sort of standardisation.

To add, the last AC with the cats was oneDesign. The hulls and wingsails were oneDesign with only the foils and operational management being allowed for individual development.


Yes, so one design will just mean certain parts of the boat are of fixed design, not the whole thing. So there will be areas where differentiation in design can be made therefore 2 boats allowed makes sense, plus it gives a DR option, in case a team has to race BAR.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:59 am 
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I seem to remember that there was something in the deed of gift that specified that each boat had to be representative of the country of origin and there were limits as to the composition of components and crew from outside the represented country.

I'm not sure to what extent these were required for this AC, but it did seem to have been relaxed.

However, if each boat is required to be constructed in the country represented and comprised of materials sourced in that country, then it would seem that a one design standardisation is niether possible nor desirable.

That's my take on it, anyway.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:14 am 
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Imoca 60 is one design and the development are huge from first race to the last.

I would think that it's a good model for America's cup


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:16 am 
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Yourmother wrote:
badmannotinjapan wrote:
Rinkals wrote:
Yourmother wrote:
For clarity, a question - The “one design” simply refers to specific components of the boat being of completely specified structure? So largely a non differentiator. Is that right? Or ...?

But I assume the 2 boat thing means 2 active race boats. Though, only the defender had this option last time, but didn’t exercise it.

However, many teams did have many new boats during the race to the America’s Cup. BAR had 3 I believe. Oracle had one which they donated to Team Japan. But the constraint I thought was in relation to active/standby race boats.

"One design" is a term indicating a standard design with very little divergence, the premise being that each boat is identical, so that the results can be attributed to the skill and abilities of the sailor(s) rather than the design and construction of the boat. The laser is an example of a one design boat.

Obviously that isn't entirely desirable for AC boats, but I presume that there are design specifications which can be mandated to provide some sort of standardisation.

To add, the last AC with the cats was oneDesign. The hulls and wingsails were oneDesign with only the foils and operational management being allowed for individual development.


Yes, so one design will just mean certain parts of the boat are of fixed design, not the whole thing. So there will be areas where differentiation in design can be made therefore 2 boats allowed makes sense, plus it gives a DR option, in case a team has to race BAR.


You'd have plenty of time to nip back to Westhaven Marina, swap boats and sail back to pass them on the first upwind leg :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:40 am 
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People are deluded if they think the match racing will be better just because the boats will be monohulls.

If monos are blasting around the course at 25-40 knots there will be no more or less tacking duels than there was in the most recent iteration.

If it's tacking duels you want then slow the boats right down to 8-10 knots again.

Likewise with sail changes etc. Boats going really quickly always have the apparent wind coming from the front so sail changes just don't happen.

If it's spinnakers you want, the boats have to be going slow relative to the wind speed.

Match racing is held in slow boats for a reason - they don't lose too much speed relative to their top speed when they tack or gybe. Match racing AC slow boats got to be way more boring than where they're at now. I grew up racing sailing dinghies but rarely watched AC until Oracle bought out that huge trimaran. I've watched every race since (including the LV) because they are breaking new ground and are so exciting.

I hope that whatever they decide to sail the do it in NZ as I'd be a spectator.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:00 am 
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Hardtackle wrote:
People are deluded if they think the match racing will be better just because the boats will be monohulls.

If monos are blasting around the course at 25-40 knots there will be no more or less tacking duels than there was in the most recent iteration.

If it's tacking duels you want then slow the boats right down to 8-10 knots again.

Likewise with sail changes etc. Boats going really quickly always have the apparent wind coming from the front so sail changes just don't happen.

If it's spinnakers you want, the boats have to be going slow relative to the wind speed.

Match racing is held in slow boats for a reason - they don't lose too much speed relative to their top speed when they tack or gybe. Match racing AC slow boats got to be way more boring than where they're at now. I grew up racing sailing dinghies but rarely watched AC until Oracle bought out that huge trimaran. I've watched every race since (including the LV) because they are breaking new ground and are so exciting.

I hope that whatever they decide to sail the do it in NZ as I'd be a spectator.

Yes, I think I said as much a little earlier.

Foiling monohulls would be the worst of both worlds, in my view; Slower than cats, but just as manoeuvrable.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:02 am 
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Back to monos thanks! Please.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:00 pm 
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Hardtackle wrote:
People are deluded if they think the match racing will be better just because the boats will be monohulls.

If monos are blasting around the course at 25-40 knots there will be no more or less tacking duels than there was in the most recent iteration.

If it's tacking duels you want then slow the boats right down to 8-10 knots again.

Likewise with sail changes etc. Boats going really quickly always have the apparent wind coming from the front so sail changes just don't happen.

If it's spinnakers you want, the boats have to be going slow relative to the wind speed.

Match racing is held in slow boats for a reason - they don't lose too much speed relative to their top speed when they tack or gybe. Match racing AC slow boats got to be way more boring than where they're at now. I grew up racing sailing dinghies but rarely watched AC until Oracle bought out that huge trimaran. I've watched every race since (including the LV) because they are breaking new ground and are so exciting.

I hope that whatever they decide to sail the do it in NZ as I'd be a spectator.

I guess you don't need gennikers then :roll:


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:35 pm 
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The boat for the next America's Cup revealed. Wow.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/ar ... d=11946082


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:45 pm 
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The Native wrote:
The boat for the next America's Cup revealed. Wow.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/ar ... d=11946082

It looks. f**king. SICK!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:46 pm 
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The Native wrote:
The boat for the next America's Cup revealed. Wow.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/ar ... d=11946082


Damn.... rather sexy.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:52 pm 
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Not at all what I thought it was going to be like. And that's a good thing. Theoretically faster than the AC50 is exciting. Seeing 75 foot monohulls honking around the Hauraki Gulf will be some sight.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:07 pm 
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Self righting if capsizes :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:33 pm 
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I might have to have a lie down in the dark. Good Lord. Kitchen sink thrown at this one.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:08 am 
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kiwinoz wrote:
Self righting if capsizes :thumbup:


Which tells me it's "dinghy" like. Reckon it's just a supersized one of those Sydney Skiffs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UqXaTHG0_M

At 27s in, pulling a wheelie in a dinghy. Very cool, but you'd not get me in one unless it was a force 1 or below. :lol:

Edut: I can't wait. There's gonna be some epic screw ups as they come to terms with these.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:18 am 
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Shit that is good. Only issue being the course is not next to Auckland but is out past Rangitoto. But I guess they must have thought that through.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:28 am 
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I am wondering about the challengers based on that concept:

1/ BAC will be licking their lips. Ainslie must be salivating at the concept
2/ Swedes will turn up. they always do.
3/ NYYC will be a tremendous addiition and return to the cup.
4/ Australia should finally return.
etc
Will be a pity if Larry packs it in.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:37 am 
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The Native wrote:
The boat for the next America's Cup revealed. Wow.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/ar ... d=11946082


That looks f**king awesome, or savage (as my 11 year old boy would say)


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