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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:00 pm 
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Alan seems to think Distributism is Socialism.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:04 pm 
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A Friend of mine recently got deported back to Venezuela, he was asking for political asylum. He is the son of one of the politicians who has just been taken. He'd previously been kidnapped twice and tortured, which is why he was asking for asylum.

The UK Government said they believe he was exaggerating.

He was quite angry at being deported, clearly with good reasons.

We haven't heard from him in two months, all his social media accounts are silent.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:08 pm 
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houtkabouter wrote:

all his social media accounts are silent.


Silver lining.





I kid. Hope he's ok. :(


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:26 pm 
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zzzz wrote:
AlanBengio wrote:
zzzz wrote:
Alan

You seem to be working off your own unique understanding of "socialism". It's not a synonym for "social" or "social policy".

In fairness, it a common failing among many self-described socialists. Rather than acknowledge the obvious we are forced to descend into increasingly frantic redefinitions of "true" socialism.


All of what I mentioned above entered our societies thanks to socialist struggles.
And nowadays things have evolved to the point that topics like pensions, healthcare, education, voting right, right of the workers are not seen as revolutionary programs at all anymore.
These are seen as normal things on our societies - but it was not like that not so long ago.
A great changes of perspective we have now and a great deal of socialism inside our lives right now.
And this was due to these struggles we had in the past; not thanks to free market.
It is undeniable IMO.



Alan

The precursor to the welfare state in Europe was the German welfare reforms of the 1880s brought in by that raving pinko, Bismark. In the UK it was a Liberal Govt that included Winston Churchill that brought in the the first nakedly re-distributive budgets.

You are idea of "socialism" is so vague an squishy you could just as easily (and more accurately) talk about Christianity.


I know that better than you think.
And I stand by my ideas: ie socialism struggles brought changes on our world - changes that are good ones
Mind you: (in very short term) protests, turmoils, unrests, forced governments to accept changes that introduced policies advocated by socialists on their agenda (even if you do not like referring to them as such).
It was not the free market (of which you all have also a vague and squishy knowledge, as far as I can read, if you mantain that these changes were introduced by the free market).

Edit: I also stand by my ideas on this - that the Nordic states implemented socialist policies on their systems
and on this - that China is a succesful socialist country (altought tending more on a "fascist" model than socialist one)


Last edited by AlanBengio on Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:29 pm 
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houtkabouter wrote:
A Friend of mine recently got deported back to Venezuela, he was asking for political asylum. He is the son of one of the politicians who has just been taken. He'd previously been kidnapped twice and tortured, which is why he was asking for asylum.

The UK Government said they believe he was exaggerating.

He was quite angry at being deported, clearly with good reasons.

We haven't heard from him in two months, all his social media accounts are silent.


:((

Seems to be quite a few Venezuelans in Ireland now, and they've organised themselves fairly well into the Venezuelan Community Ireland which offers some help to people here re: medical costs, sending money home. It's good to see and I've gone to a few of their events which have been full houses, wonder where they get their backing.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:47 pm 
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Quote:
I know that better than you think.
And I stand by my ideas: ie socialism struggles brought changes on our world - changes that are good ones
Mind you: (in very short term) protests, turmoils, unrests, forced governments to accept changes that introduced policies advocated by socialists on their agenda (even if you do not like referring to them as such).
It was not the free market (of which you all have also a vague and squishy knowledge, as far as I can read, if you mantain that these changes were introduced by the free market).

Edit: I also stand by my ideas on this - that the Nordic states implemented socialist policies on their systems
and on this - that China is a succesful socialist country (altought tending more on a "fascist" model than socialist one)



You seem to just keep ignoring the fact that mich of the above was funded by capitalism. That while welfare has been institutionalised it wasn't a result of the "socialist struggles" in most countries. Maybe Italy had a much greater input from the left, however much of that came about while the country was created.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:51 pm 
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Bullettyme wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
Irish Union rep on the radio this morning defending the election and saying the regime has committed no violence.


The Left truly sickens me.


Would that also include the hundreds of thousands of leftists (including me, apparently) who condemn what's happening in Venezuela?


No

You invalidated your condemnation with mealy mouthed whataboutery


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:41 pm 
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Mullet 2 wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
Irish Union rep on the radio this morning defending the election and saying the regime has committed no violence.


The Left truly sickens me.


Would that also include the hundreds of thousands of leftists (including me, apparently) who condemn what's happening in Venezuela?


No

You invalidated your condemnation with mealy mouthed whataboutery


I didn't though, none of it is whataboutery it's facts people don't seem to like because it challenges their black/white worldviews.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:43 pm 
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Bullettyme wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
Irish Union rep on the radio this morning defending the election and saying the regime has committed no violence.


The Left truly sickens me.


Would that also include the hundreds of thousands of leftists (including me, apparently) who condemn what's happening in Venezuela?


No

You invalidated your condemnation with mealy mouthed whataboutery


I didn't though, none of it is whataboutery it's facts people don't seem to like because it challenges their black/white worldviews.



Facts like Venuzaula having an open market economy. Those sort of "facts"


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:01 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
Facts like Venuzaula having an open market economy. Those sort of "facts"

:yawn: keep banging that drum.

Or like opposition leaders being executed. Shrill hysteria like that.

Or socialists being 'evil'.

You crazy, crazy man.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:16 pm 
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Bullettyme wrote:
houtkabouter wrote:
A Friend of mine recently got deported back to Venezuela, he was asking for political asylum. He is the son of one of the politicians who has just been taken. He'd previously been kidnapped twice and tortured, which is why he was asking for asylum.

The UK Government said they believe he was exaggerating.

He was quite angry at being deported, clearly with good reasons.

We haven't heard from him in two months, all his social media accounts are silent.


:((

Seems to be quite a few Venezuelans in Ireland now, and they've organised themselves fairly well into the Venezuelan Community Ireland which offers some help to people here re: medical costs, sending money home. It's good to see and I've gone to a few of their events which have been full houses, wonder where they get their backing.



It's either "shrill hysteria" or it isn't. Make your mind up.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:18 pm 
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What are you talking about you stupid twat?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:19 pm 
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I only deal in facts, so here are some for you:

1. The Venezuelan government has set strict prices on things like bread, milk and fuel. This is part of the problem, because this takes away any profit incentive for companies.

2. The Government has seized control of factories (literally, the means of production). This clearly shows it is a socialist state, not a failed free market as some of you are claiming.

3. It is/was a centrally planned economy (another symptom of socialism), which leads to chronic failings in efficiency and utilisation of skills.

4. They (as posts above show) have a secret police force which tortures and arrests opponents without good reason. A symptom of anything other than a democracy.

I would actually say looking back in this that Venezuela is quasi- communist.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:22 pm 
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Bullettyme wrote:
What are you talking about you stupid twat?


:| is your response to a relation of a Venezuelan opposition asylum claim, yet stating the danger that opposition politicians face if I do it is hysteria, can you see the issue here ? I'm suprised you didn't agree with the British governments view of the danger being over stated.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:23 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:
What are you talking about you stupid twat?


:| is your response to a relation of a Venezuelan opposition claim asylum, yet stating the danger that opposition politicians face if I do it is hysteria, can you see the issue here ? I'm suprised you didn't agree with the British governments view of the danger being over stated.


:lol: Venezuela is a human rights abuser, no doubt about that and I've never claimed otherwise, and has form for banging up opposition supporters and activists. You claimed it was executing them.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:31 pm 
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Bullettyme wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:
What are you talking about you stupid twat?


:| is your response to a relation of a Venezuelan opposition claim asylum, yet stating the danger that opposition politicians face if I do it is hysteria, can you see the issue here ? I'm suprised you didn't agree with the British governments view of the danger being over stated.


:lol: Venezuela is a human rights abuser, no doubt about that and I've never claimed otherwise, and has form for banging up opposition supporters and activists. You claimed it was executing them.



I corrected that, but said maybe a matter of time. But hey detention and disappearing "not hysteria" possibly shot "hysteria".

Splitting hairs is all you have because you're plainly ludicrous .


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:32 pm 
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Bullettyme wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:
What are you talking about you stupid twat?


:| is your response to a relation of a Venezuelan opposition claim asylum, yet stating the danger that opposition politicians face if I do it is hysteria, can you see the issue here ? I'm suprised you didn't agree with the British governments view of the danger being over stated.


:lol: Venezuela is a human rights abuser, no doubt about that and I've never claimed otherwise, and has form for banging up opposition supporters and activists. You claimed it was executing them.

Bimbo goes into hyperbole when it comes to the left, Jeremy Corbyn was a terrorist according to him.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:36 pm 
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He's made up a load of stuff in his head anyway. The man is a sociopath.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:38 pm 
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Sefton wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:
What are you talking about you stupid twat?


:| is your response to a relation of a Venezuelan opposition claim asylum, yet stating the danger that opposition politicians face if I do it is hysteria, can you see the issue here ? I'm suprised you didn't agree with the British governments view of the danger being over stated.


:lol: Venezuela is a human rights abuser, no doubt about that and I've never claimed otherwise, and has form for banging up opposition supporters and activists. You claimed it was executing them.

Bimbo goes into hyperbole when it comes to the left, Jeremy Corbyn was a terrorist according to him.



Now there's someone who had a lot to say about Venuzuala but is suddenly quite,


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:40 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
Sefton wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:
What are you talking about you stupid twat?


:| is your response to a relation of a Venezuelan opposition claim asylum, yet stating the danger that opposition politicians face if I do it is hysteria, can you see the issue here ? I'm suprised you didn't agree with the British governments view of the danger being over stated.


:lol: Venezuela is a human rights abuser, no doubt about that and I've never claimed otherwise, and has form for banging up opposition supporters and activists. You claimed it was executing them.

Bimbo goes into hyperbole when it comes to the left, Jeremy Corbyn was a terrorist according to him.



Now there's someone who had a lot to say about Venuzuala but is suddenly quite,

I've had nothing to say as I'm quite ignorant on the subject.

That stops some of us from pontificating you see.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:43 pm 
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Bullettyme wrote:
He's made up a load of stuff in his head anyway. The man is a sociopath.



"Open market economy "

:lol:

Plus you don't like my description of them being "evil" but you describe the regimes as human rights abusing , are these good human rights abusers then ?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:46 pm 
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Quote:
I've had nothing to say as I'm quite ignorant on the subject.

That stops some of us from pontificating you see.



Unusual for a leftie, they seemed to have loads to say in the past, any ways I was referring to the man you referenced :

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2FbWsINjpRY


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:00 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:
He's made up a load of stuff in his head anyway. The man is a sociopath.



"Open market economy "

:lol:

Plus you don't like my description of them being "evil" but you describe the regimes as human rights abusing , are these good human rights abusers then ?


You called socialists "evil people", not the PSUV. So you're just blathering more nonsense now. Seems you can't even read your own posts.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:03 pm 
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Bullettyme wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:
He's made up a load of stuff in his head anyway. The man is a sociopath.



"Open market economy "

:lol:

Plus you don't like my description of them being "evil" but you describe the regimes as human rights abusing , are these good human rights abusers then ?


You called socialists "evil people", not the PSUV. So you're just blathering more nonsense now. Seems you can't even read your own posts.



IT was in context of the latest socialist "evil" regime. It's pretty much where every socialist regime in history has ended up, inflation, bankruptcy , increasing authoritarian, fixing elections, arresting opposition and killing their own people.

Why ? Because socialism is cool.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:41 pm 
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Socialists don't start out evil.

They start out stupid and overtime become evil.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:57 pm 
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article in the gaurdian from a former believer

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... n-chavismo


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:31 pm 
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Akkerman wrote:
article in the gaurdian from a former believer

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... n-chavismo



Quote:
‘This is a coup! Let the world know!” These words from Venezuela’s environment minister Ana Elisa Osorio during the 2002 overthrow of Hugo Chávez marked the beginning of my love affair with Latin


Surely "by" not "of" Hugo Chavez.

I mean the simplest of details and the guardian proves its wrong ...


Actually wow, I've never looked at how it went to and fro.

Apologies to all.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:18 pm 
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the guardian is correct, there was a coup against Chavez in 2002. What's incorrect?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:21 pm 
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Bullettyme wrote:
the guardian is correct, there was a coup against Chavez in 2002. What's incorrect?



Hence the rest of my post.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:43 pm 
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the history of Latin America is of strong government and widespread poverty, left or right.

surprised to see the libertarian types getting their knickers in a twist over really quite mild authoritarianism and displaying bleeding heart concern for the financial wellbeing of the masses


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:47 pm 
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How much soul searching is the academic left going to do about the repeatedly disastrous outcome off their polical preference? And how often?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:07 pm 
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Santa wrote:
How much soul searching is the academic left going to do about the repeatedly disastrous outcome off their polical preference? And how often?



Read that Gaurdian article, there's no real souls,searching of what Chavez did. The new guys possibly a bad guy but Chavez wasn't really ever to blame.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:42 pm 
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Chavez died at the right time.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:50 pm 
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Bullettyme wrote:
Chavez died at the right time.


40 years earlier might have been even more propitious.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:54 pm 
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Bullettyme wrote:
the guardian is correct, there was a coup against Chavez in 2002. What's incorrect?



Shame it failed.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:13 pm 
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According to Ken Livingstone, it all went wrong in Venezuela because Chavez failed to execute enough oligarchs, and he really did mean 'execute' as in kill. Presumably he'll be celebrating the start of real socialism when Maduro moves on from arresting the opposition to murdering them.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:59 pm 
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xhooker wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:
Venezuela had an open market economy.



Dick
Bull

You can not have a market economy when
1. Petrol 50 liters cost less then 1c
2. All manufactures (what is left of them) prices are controlled
3. Importers & retailers margins are controlled
4. 6 different exchange rates

do you want more

Look at a bottle of yogurt, a packet of cigarettes all have the prices on them printed by the manufacturers

A retailer has to display price, date of importation and can not increase his prices due to inflation




Then Bullettyme says

"
I didn't though, none of it is whataboutery it's facts people don't seem to like because it challenges their black/white worldviews"

Is he Mad or just stupid ?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:27 pm 
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Lobby wrote:
According to Ken Livingstone, it all went wrong in Venezuela because Chavez failed to execute enough oligarchs, and he really did mean 'execute' as in kill. Presumably he'll be celebrating the start of real socialism when Maduro moves on from arresting the opposition to murdering them.

If morons like you give credence anything Livingstone.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:57 pm 
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Mullet 2 wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:
the guardian is correct, there was a coup against Chavez in 2002. What's incorrect?



Shame it failed.


Funny when democracy only seems to matter in select circumstances.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:58 pm 
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Lobby wrote:
According to Ken Livingstone, it all went wrong in Venezuela because Chavez failed to execute enough oligarchs, and he really did mean 'execute' as in kill. Presumably he'll be celebrating the start of real socialism when Maduro moves on from arresting the opposition to murdering them.

Well he just changed the oligarchs from one to the other, it was a broke system, like much of Latin America.


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