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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:14 pm 
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Bullettyme wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:
the guardian is correct, there was a coup against Chavez in 2002. What's incorrect?



Shame it failed.


Funny when democracy only seems to matter in select circumstances.


People elected Hitler


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:16 pm 
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Bullettyme wrote:
Lobby wrote:
According to Ken Livingstone, it all went wrong in Venezuela because Chavez failed to execute enough oligarchs, and he really did mean 'execute' as in kill. Presumably he'll be celebrating the start of real socialism when Maduro moves on from arresting the opposition to murdering them.

Well he just changed the oligarchs from one to the other, it was a broke system, like much of Latin America.


That is true
But he also eliminated the middle classes who where 40% of the population


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:27 pm 
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xhooker wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:
Lobby wrote:
According to Ken Livingstone, it all went wrong in Venezuela because Chavez failed to execute enough oligarchs, and he really did mean 'execute' as in kill. Presumably he'll be celebrating the start of real socialism when Maduro moves on from arresting the opposition to murdering them.

Well he just changed the oligarchs from one to the other, it was a broke system, like much of Latin America.


That is true
But he also eliminated the middle classes who where 40% of the population


Also true, although there is still a big middle class so he didn't eliminate them. There's probably a balance that could be found however, and as long as there's an oligarchy and an underclass there's going to be lurches right and left with the resultant instability and economic collapse that follows (plenty of right wing governments in LA broke their economies and ushered in hyperinflation).

As for the other stuff you keep posting, fair enough. I'm going on personal anecdotes of people who ran, and still run, successful businesses in Venezuela. I'm sure your facts are back up somewhere, despite not offering sources.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:44 pm 
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Bullettyme wrote:
xhooker wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:
Lobby wrote:
According to Ken Livingstone, it all went wrong in Venezuela because Chavez failed to execute enough oligarchs, and he really did mean 'execute' as in kill. Presumably he'll be celebrating the start of real socialism when Maduro moves on from arresting the opposition to murdering them.

Well he just changed the oligarchs from one to the other, it was a broke system, like much of Latin America.


That is true
But he also eliminated the middle classes who where 40% of the population


Also true, although there is still a big middle class so he didn't eliminate them. There's probably a balance that could be found however, and as long as there's an oligarchy and an underclass there's going to be lurches right and left with the resultant instability and economic collapse that follows (plenty of right wing governments in LA broke their economies and ushered in hyperinflation).

As for the other stuff you keep posting, fair enough. I'm going on personal anecdotes of people who ran, and still run, successful businesses in Venezuela. I'm sure your facts are back up somewhere, despite not offering sources.


The economy hasn't collapsed because of instability, it's collapsed because the governments policies were unsustainable in any long term way. The socialist policies were f ucking stupid.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:22 pm 
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So you didn't read my post, yet again, and go on the attack. You're a joke man, give over.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:41 pm 
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Bullettyme wrote:
So you didn't read my post, yet again, and go on the attack. You're a joke man, give over.



Quote:
resultant instability and economic collapse that follows



As you've been posting all,along that everything is in isolation from the actual cause of the instability, stupid socialist policies.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:07 pm 
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I've not read the thread or followed what's going on there but a friend on Facebook said it's like Mad Max over there- people are eating their pets. He said it's worse than reported and worse than you could possibly imagine.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:10 pm 
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Bullet getting more and more shrill defending this scum


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:11 pm 
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I blame Marx


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:13 pm 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
I've not read the thread or followed what's going on there but a friend on Facebook said it's like Mad Max over there- people are eating their pets. He said it's worse than reported and worse than you could possibly imagine.

Pet chickens, goats, LLamas?
I doubt the situation is worse than anyone could imagine ffs given the exposure most of us have had of the the horrors or Iraq, Afghanistan, South Sudan, Rwanda etc over the last few decades. The terrible famines and the violent Civils wars etc :roll:

That said the situation is terrible and much the same as lots of shitty states be it Capitalist or Socialist.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:17 pm 
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Akkerman wrote:
I blame Marx

That Groucho is such a twat.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:18 pm 
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c69 wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
I've not read the thread or followed what's going on there but a friend on Facebook said it's like Mad Max over there- people are eating their pets. He said it's worse than reported and worse than you could possibly imagine.

Pet chickens, goats, LLamas?
I doubt the situation is worse than anyone could imagine ffs given the exposure most of us have had of the the horrors or Iraq, Afghanistan, South Sudan, Rwanda etc over the last few decades. The terrible famines and the violent Civils wars etc :roll:

That said the situation is terrible and much the same as lots of shitty states be it Capitalist or Socialist.


No, proper pets :) and worse than you can imagine in Venezuela. No point comparing it to Aleppo or Cardiff.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:18 pm 
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julian wrote:
Chavez was the seed of evil in Venezuela. An egotistic clown.

A populist who as well as other similar populists in Latam under the "we do this for the people" flag made someone who thought different an enemy.

None says that Venezuela was a country of huge differences among classes, but you have to try to equal classes, not put each class againt each other.

The biggest wave of exiled from Venezuela started with Chavez not Maduro. Chavez fought the business elite to create his own businee elite.


He'd have been a Trumpist.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:21 pm 
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Ted. wrote:
julian wrote:
Chavez was the seed of evil in Venezuela. An egotistic clown.

A populist who as well as other similar populists in Latam under the "we do this for the people" flag made someone who thought different an enemy.

None says that Venezuela was a country of huge differences among classes, but you have to try to equal classes, not put each class againt each other.

The biggest wave of exiled from Venezuela started with Chavez not Maduro. Chavez fought the business elite to create his own businee elite.


He'd have been a Trumpist.



Cuba , Nicaragua, Trumps America, just rolls off the tongue ...


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:22 pm 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
c69 wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
I've not read the thread or followed what's going on there but a friend on Facebook said it's like Mad Max over there- people are eating their pets. He said it's worse than reported and worse than you could possibly imagine.

Pet chickens, goats, LLamas?
I doubt the situation is worse than anyone could imagine ffs given the exposure most of us have had of the the horrors or Iraq, Afghanistan, South Sudan, Rwanda etc over the last few decades. The terrible famines and the violent Civils wars etc :roll:

That said the situation is terrible and much the same as lots of shitty states be it Capitalist or Socialist.


No, proper pets :) and worse than you can imagine in Venezuela. No point comparing it to Aleppo or Cardiff.

Look I've read the papers about starving Polish immigrants draining ponds and stealing Carp in the UK ffs


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:37 pm 
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c69 wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
c69 wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
I've not read the thread or followed what's going on there but a friend on Facebook said it's like Mad Max over there- people are eating their pets. He said it's worse than reported and worse than you could possibly imagine.

Pet chickens, goats, LLamas?
I doubt the situation is worse than anyone could imagine ffs given the exposure most of us have had of the the horrors or Iraq, Afghanistan, South Sudan, Rwanda etc over the last few decades. The terrible famines and the violent Civils wars etc :roll:

That said the situation is terrible and much the same as lots of shitty states be it Capitalist or Socialist.


No, proper pets :) and worse than you can imagine in Venezuela. No point comparing it to Aleppo or Cardiff.

Look I've read the papers about starving Polish immigrants draining ponds and stealing Carp in the UK ffs


:thumbup:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:38 pm 
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https://munchies.vice.com/en_us/article ... -anteaters


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:40 pm 
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Let's face it Maduro has always been a loony mad bastard even when not in charge.
His tenure was always going to be a cluster feck, nowt to do with being right or left he was never going to be able to govern a country.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:41 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:
So you didn't read my post, yet again, and go on the attack. You're a joke man, give over.



Quote:
resultant instability and economic collapse that follows



As you've been posting all,along that everything is in isolation from the actual cause of the instability, stupid socialist policies.


You're an idiot and you can't read.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:43 pm 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
I've not read the thread or followed what's going on there but a friend on Facebook said it's like Mad Max over there- people are eating their pets. He said it's worse than reported and worse than you could possibly imagine.


That's probably not true. Even the rightest of right wing Venezuelans I've chatted to hasn't said that. It isn't a famine.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:44 pm 
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Mullet 2 wrote:
Bullet getting more and more shrill defending this scum

Sure I am. I trust you can point out the defending, you daft plum.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:48 pm 
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Bullettyme wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
Irish Union rep on the radio this morning defending the election and saying the regime has committed no violence.


The Left truly sickens me.


Would that also include the hundreds of thousands of leftists (including me, apparently) who condemn what's happening in Venezuela?


The problem with left politics at the moment, is the leftwing establishment keep defending and ignoring stuff like this and keep selling the story to their followers who don't appear to get as angry about this as they do on other issues they see as right-wing based. It's not the average left leaning person (if there is such a thing). But the issue is the left won't motivate it's crusader passions to be as hard on left wing badness as right wing, hence so many double standards pop-up that allows the like sof Mullet and Bimbo to justify any anti-leftish feeling they have.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:52 pm 
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eldanielfire wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
Irish Union rep on the radio this morning defending the election and saying the regime has committed no violence.


The Left truly sickens me.


Would that also include the hundreds of thousands of leftists (including me, apparently) who condemn what's happening in Venezuela?


The problem with left politics at the moment, is the leftwing establishment keep defending and ignoring stuff like this and keep selling the story to their followers who don't appear to get as angry about this as they do on other issues they see as right-wing based. It's not the average left leaning person (if there is such a thing). But the issue is the left won't motivate it's crusader passions to be as hard on left wing badness as right wing, hence so many double standards pop-up that allows the like sof Mullet and Bimbo to justify any anti-leftish feeling they have.

Tbh I haven't really read anyone defending the regime on here. I doubt at least 1 of the posters will ever be objective about the Evil socialists.
Shit situations happen with bad and incompetent people in charge in all political systems.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:57 pm 
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englishchief wrote:
I only deal in facts, so here are some for you:

1. The Venezuelan government has set strict prices on things like bread, milk and fuel. This is part of the problem, because this takes away any profit incentive for companies.

2. The Government has seized control of factories (literally, the means of production). This clearly shows it is a socialist state, not a failed free market as some of you are claiming.

3. It is/was a centrally planned economy (another symptom of socialism), which leads to chronic failings in efficiency and utilisation of skills.

4. They (as posts above show) have a secret police force which tortures and arrests opponents without good reason. A symptom of anything other than a democracy.

I would actually say looking back in this that Venezuela is quasi- communist.


1. That's largely because the rices they set are below production costs in some cases. So bread makers not only have an incentive but can't pysically make money no matter what they do. The government just responds to them with violence and then a black economy emergaes from Columbia.

2. Nationalisation isn't always a socialist thing. many european countries have nationalised industries which are successful. In fact many of britains privitised industries are less succes then others naional counterparts. The incentive argument is irrelevant, workers don't care who they pay for, goverment or a private boss. the issue is how well they are run. The bread situation in Venezuela is a basketcase example.

3. Germany and China can be called to differing degrees planned economies. They are successes. In germany it's because government work with industry to find a best way usually.

4. Remember when the US set-up Guatamino Bay? It's not socialist thinsg to due, it's aoppressive regime thing to do. Though I do agree it has often frequently occured in socialist regimes. But it isn't exclusively socialist.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:02 pm 
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c69 wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
Irish Union rep on the radio this morning defending the election and saying the regime has committed no violence.


The Left truly sickens me.


Would that also include the hundreds of thousands of leftists (including me, apparently) who condemn what's happening in Venezuela?


The problem with left politics at the moment, is the leftwing establishment keep defending and ignoring stuff like this and keep selling the story to their followers who don't appear to get as angry about this as they do on other issues they see as right-wing based. It's not the average left leaning person (if there is such a thing). But the issue is the left won't motivate it's crusader passions to be as hard on left wing badness as right wing, hence so many double standards pop-up that allows the like sof Mullet and Bimbo to justify any anti-leftish feeling they have.

Tbh I haven't really read anyone defending the regime on here. I doubt at least 1 of the posters will ever be objective about the Evil socialists.
Shit situations happen with bad and incompetent people in charge in all political systems.


I'm not talkin about people on PR. As I said it's the left establlishment who will protest something ridiculous at the rop of a hat if it's seen as typically a right wing or by "the man", but go very quiet and passive don't get particularly angry at things with leftish labels/associations or outright deny them that are far worse.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:55 pm 
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Bullettyme wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
I've not read the thread or followed what's going on there but a friend on Facebook said it's like Mad Max over there- people are eating their pets. He said it's worse than reported and worse than you could possibly imagine.


That's probably not true. Even the rightest of right wing Venezuelans I've chatted to hasn't said that. It isn't a famine.


My understanding is that there is a limit to the quantity of affordable food (ie Govt prices) and that market prices are 10X or more higher. Hold another currency equivalent (US$ etc) and its relatively affordable and available but if you hold Bolivars you are experiencing hyper inflation and scarcity.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:57 pm 
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Bullettyme wrote:
Nolanator wrote:
How does the missus feel about it?


Not good, she's from a staunchly middle class family so they never really had time for Chavez/Maduro to begin with. I get the feeling most Venezuelans outside Venezuela are just watching with a kind of horror and sadness as their country falls apart at the seams. There's huge worry for families still there, for job prospects and for sending money home.

Chavez had some good ideas, like most Latin American states Venezuela was well and truly in the grip of landholding and business elites, supported by the military and security forces, with the little guy getting very little. Chavez to his credit managed to uproot most of these elites, but they've just been supplanted by members of his own party.


A bit like South Africa


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:36 am 
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kiwinoz wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
I've not read the thread or followed what's going on there but a friend on Facebook said it's like Mad Max over there- people are eating their pets. He said it's worse than reported and worse than you could possibly imagine.


That's probably not true. Even the rightest of right wing Venezuelans I've chatted to hasn't said that. It isn't a famine.


My understanding is that there is a limit to the quantity of affordable food (ie Govt prices) and that market prices are 10X or more higher. Hold another currency equivalent (US$ etc) and its relatively affordable and available but if you hold Bolivars you are experiencing hyper inflation and scarcity.




Most food costs about a third of the price in the real world
There is plenty of food little variety and mostly poor quality
Today I brought chocolates Yogurt, cheeses, meats and Canadian maple syrup (@$6 that's 2 weeks wage)
I've never seen the cheap food only the 4 hour line at the bakery at the end of the day.
Rice is $1.50 per kg, meat about $4 per kg, vegs most around 70c kg
Don't forget the basic wage now is under US$10 per month
I went into a Pharmacy with a list of 23 items the only things I could buy where Bandage tape & Viagra.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:06 am 
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c69 wrote:
Let's face it Maduro has always been a loony mad bastard even when not in charge.
His tenure was always going to be a cluster feck, nowt to do with being right or left he was never going to be able to govern a country.


Get your excuses in early. Nothing to do with socialism etc...


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:17 am 
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eldanielfire wrote:
englishchief wrote:
I only deal in facts, so here are some for you:

1. The Venezuelan government has set strict prices on things like bread, milk and fuel. This is part of the problem, because this takes away any profit incentive for companies.

2. The Government has seized control of factories (literally, the means of production). This clearly shows it is a socialist state, not a failed free market as some of you are claiming.

3. It is/was a centrally planned economy (another symptom of socialism), which leads to chronic failings in efficiency and utilisation of skills.

4. They (as posts above show) have a secret police force which tortures and arrests opponents without good reason. A symptom of anything other than a democracy.

I would actually say looking back in this that Venezuela is quasi- communist.


1. That's largely because the rices they set are below production costs in some cases. So bread makers not only have an incentive but can't pysically make money no matter what they do. The government just responds to them with violence and then a black economy emergaes from Columbia.

2. Nationalisation isn't always a socialist thing. many european countries have nationalised industries which are successful. In fact many of britains privitised industries are less succes then others naional counterparts. The incentive argument is irrelevant, workers don't care who they pay for, goverment or a private boss. the issue is how well they are run. The bread situation in Venezuela is a basketcase example.

3. Germany and China can be called to differing degrees planned economies. They are successes. In germany it's because government work with industry to find a best way usually.

4. Remember when the US set-up Guatamino Bay? It's not socialist thinsg to due, it's aoppressive regime thing to do. Though I do agree it has often frequently occured in socialist regimes. But it isn't exclusively socialist.


Re #3, Japan too is a planned economy, though perhaps less now than in the 1960~1990s.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:22 am 
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englishchief wrote:
c69 wrote:
Let's face it Maduro has always been a loony mad bastard even when not in charge.
His tenure was always going to be a cluster feck, nowt to do with being right or left he was never going to be able to govern a country.


Get your excuses in early. Nothing to do with socialism etc...

If you care to search my posts you would see that I called Maduro a flecking loony about 4 years ago.
However you keep on pushing your agenda.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:30 am 
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c69 wrote:
englishchief wrote:
c69 wrote:
Let's face it Maduro has always been a loony mad bastard even when not in charge.
His tenure was always going to be a cluster feck, nowt to do with being right or left he was never going to be able to govern a country.


Get your excuses in early. Nothing to do with socialism etc...

If you care to search my posts you would see that I called Maduro a flecking loony about 4 years ago.
However you keep on pushing your agenda.



Still nothing to do with socialism just one mad individual. Disengenuous as ever.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:18 am 
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kiwinoz wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
I've not read the thread or followed what's going on there but a friend on Facebook said it's like Mad Max over there- people are eating their pets. He said it's worse than reported and worse than you could possibly imagine.


That's probably not true. Even the rightest of right wing Venezuelans I've chatted to hasn't said that. It isn't a famine.


My understanding is that there is a limit to the quantity of affordable food (ie Govt prices) and that market prices are 10X or more higher. Hold another currency equivalent (US$ etc) and its relatively affordable and available but if you hold Bolivars you are experiencing hyper inflation and scarcity.


Yep, this is my understanding of the situation in the country which I've taken from personal experiences and from what has been written. There's a huge black market in food, smuggled in from Colombia or re-circulated by the military, but there is food there all the same. Food is scarce though, and your average Venezuelan now weighs and eats less as compared to 5 years ago.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:28 am 
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c69 wrote:
Let's face it Maduro has always been a loony mad bastard even when not in charge.
His tenure was always going to be a cluster feck, nowt to do with being right or left he was never going to be able to govern a country.



:lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:31 am 
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xhooker wrote:

Most food costs about a third of the price in the real world
There is plenty of food little variety and mostly poor quality
Today I brought chocolates Yogurt, cheeses, meats and Canadian maple syrup (@$6 that's 2 weeks wage)
I've never seen the cheap food only the 4 hour line at the bakery at the end of the day.
Rice is $1.50 per kg, meat about $4 per kg, vegs most around 70c kg
Don't forget the basic wage now is under US$10 per month
I went into a Pharmacy with a list of 23 items the only things I could buy where Bandage tape & Viagra.


So all is not lost? Seriously thanks for sharing that - so 2kg rice, 1 kg meat and 4kg veges and that the monthly food in terms of wages :shock:


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:07 am 
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xhooker wrote:

Most food costs about a third of the price in the real world
There is plenty of food little variety and mostly poor quality
Today I brought chocolates Yogurt, cheeses, meats and Canadian maple syrup (@$6 that's 2 weeks wage)
I've never seen the cheap food only the 4 hour line at the bakery at the end of the day.
Rice is $1.50 per kg, meat about $4 per kg, vegs most around 70c kg
Don't forget the basic wage now is under US$10 per month
I went into a Pharmacy with a list of 23 items the only things I could buy where Bandage tape & Viagra.


Do you live there xhooker?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:10 am 
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Yeah but but before


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:39 am 
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Typically well thought out.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:43 am 
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I bet you look dashing in your red beret.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:20 pm 
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Tbf I do like the colour red.


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