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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:14 pm 
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I like haggis wrote:
Southernscot wrote:
Yesterday when the EBC forced Inverplum and Eddie Butler on us, Andrew Cotter said on twitter he’s not in Edinburgh as he was doing England v France. Just realised that ITV have this match so Cotter effectively doing the commentary package (appreciate this will be 30 mins+ of the hour they allocate to the highlights show) but just another example of BBC thinking....


Cotter wasn't going to present the show instead of inverdale...



He might have done the commentary however? And I suspect the majority of Scottish fans might prefer Mrs Logan as presenter?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:24 pm 
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I'll get behind this if you can come up with some way it's Toonies or Seymours fault.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:27 pm 
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Southernscot wrote:
I like haggis wrote:
Southernscot wrote:
Yesterday when the EBC forced Inverplum and Eddie Butler on us, Andrew Cotter said on twitter he’s not in Edinburgh as he was doing England v France. Just realised that ITV have this match so Cotter effectively doing the commentary package (appreciate this will be 30 mins+ of the hour they allocate to the highlights show) but just another example of BBC thinking....


Cotter wasn't going to present the show instead of inverdale...



He might have done the commentary however? And I suspect the majority of Scottish fans might prefer Mrs Logan as presenter?


Inverdale does all the big games, the panel had Nicol and Barclay. It's not even slight anti Scotland bias.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:40 pm 
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Southernscot wrote:
Yesterday when the EBC forced Inverplum and Eddie Butler on us, Andrew Cotter said on twitter he’s not in Edinburgh as he was doing England v France. Just realised that ITV have this match so Cotter effectively doing the commentary package (appreciate this will be 30 mins+ of the hour they allocate to the highlights show) but just another example of BBC thinking....


Andrew Cotter is isn't a BBC employee. He's a freelancer. There is maybe a budget saving.

Northern Irish viewers pay their licence fee too. Don't see why it should be a heavily Scottish production.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:00 pm 
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Yeah the pundits are our big worry. Hope Toony sorts them out before the France game :roll:


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:08 pm 
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Well France look hopeless. Or at least England are making them look so. They have some promising young players mind

Big chance for us to knock them over if they keep playing like this


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:09 pm 
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slick wrote:
dargotronV.1 wrote:
Caley_Red wrote:
Is anyone convinced we're better than Cotter's final year?

Bafflingly inept. Worryingly, at home now too

Cotter had us playing solid and entertaining stuff. 2 years ago we were better. Perhaps fair to say therefore that we have regressed.

But it's difficult to say if Cotter had he stayed on would have kept moving us forwards. There's a good chance he would have but difficult to say.

Agree on your home form worry. SA broke the spell in the Autumn, so nothing for others to fear. Need a big performance now in Paris to salvage the season cos we aint gonna get anything v England, or v Wales who have our number


I think we can still take France and Wales

I feel a lot better about the French match now. Was gearing up for another loss an hour ago.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:43 pm 
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OptimisticJock wrote:
slick wrote:
dargotronV.1 wrote:
Caley_Red wrote:
Is anyone convinced we're better than Cotter's final year?

Bafflingly inept. Worryingly, at home now too

Cotter had us playing solid and entertaining stuff. 2 years ago we were better. Perhaps fair to say therefore that we have regressed.

But it's difficult to say if Cotter had he stayed on would have kept moving us forwards. There's a good chance he would have but difficult to say.

Agree on your home form worry. SA broke the spell in the Autumn, so nothing for others to fear. Need a big performance now in Paris to salvage the season cos we aint gonna get anything v England, or v Wales who have our number


I think we can still take France and Wales

I feel a lot better about the French match now. Was gearing up for another loss an hour ago.


Really?

The French are going to be absolutely slaughtered in the press. We're going to face an Uber fired up french side in Paris where we can't buy a win.

15 point loss.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:49 pm 
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I like haggis wrote:
OptimisticJock wrote:
slick wrote:
dargotronV.1 wrote:
Caley_Red wrote:
Is anyone convinced we're better than Cotter's final year?

Bafflingly inept. Worryingly, at home now too

Cotter had us playing solid and entertaining stuff. 2 years ago we were better. Perhaps fair to say therefore that we have regressed.

But it's difficult to say if Cotter had he stayed on would have kept moving us forwards. There's a good chance he would have but difficult to say.

Agree on your home form worry. SA broke the spell in the Autumn, so nothing for others to fear. Need a big performance now in Paris to salvage the season cos we aint gonna get anything v England, or v Wales who have our number


I think we can still take France and Wales

I feel a lot better about the French match now. Was gearing up for another loss an hour ago.


Really?

The French are going to be absolutely slaughtered in the press. We're going to face an Uber fired up french side in Paris where we can't buy a win.

15 point loss.


Yeah, if any team can make them look good it will be us.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:50 pm 
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I don’t know, they will be coached to worry about the kick through, especially knowing Russell so well. Keep the ball in hand and should be space.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:02 pm 
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dargotronV.1 wrote:
Has anyone seen Weegie/Edinburgh01? normally would expect his tuppence worth in here...


Touched by your concern. My lady wife had made other arrangements (some nonsense about a 21st party in Liverpool) this weekend which meant I have not seen the match yet other than some fleeting highlights.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:19 pm 
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I like haggis wrote:
OptimisticJock wrote:
slick wrote:
dargotronV.1 wrote:
Caley_Red wrote:
Is anyone convinced we're better than Cotter's final year?

Bafflingly inept. Worryingly, at home now too

Cotter had us playing solid and entertaining stuff. 2 years ago we were better. Perhaps fair to say therefore that we have regressed.

But it's difficult to say if Cotter had he stayed on would have kept moving us forwards. There's a good chance he would have but difficult to say.

Agree on your home form worry. SA broke the spell in the Autumn, so nothing for others to fear. Need a big performance now in Paris to salvage the season cos we aint gonna get anything v England, or v Wales who have our number


I think we can still take France and Wales

I feel a lot better about the French match now. Was gearing up for another loss an hour ago.


Really?

The French are going to be absolutely slaughtered in the press. We're going to face an Uber fired up french side in Paris where we can't buy a win.

15 point loss.

There's a good chance that'll change when I spit my dummy over the team selection.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:39 pm 
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Edinburgh01 wrote:
dargotronV.1 wrote:
Has anyone seen Weegie/Edinburgh01? normally would expect his tuppence worth in here...


Touched by your concern. My lady wife had made other arrangements (some nonsense about a 21st party in Liverpool) this weekend which meant I have not seen the match yet other than some fleeting highlights.

Birthday parties at this time of the year have a knack of getting in the way of, shall we say, some important events. Glad to hear all well.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:51 am 
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Pretty depressing stuff.

A few discussion points came up with my mate, who attended the game.

Are we any better now than VC 2017?

His contention, admittedly straight after the heat of the game, was that we have improved to be competitive and believing it's anything more is delusional.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:29 am 
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I'm glad to see there is more sense of perspective here than some of the hyperbole on twitter and other locations. Yes, we were poorer than we could have been and, yes we may well even have won that match on another day, but let's not forget that was a team that many considered to be the best in the world only two or three weeks ago. If the team on the other side had been playing in black today, would we be using words like 'shambles' and 'disgrace' that I have seen elsewhere? Of course not.

We have to take little steps. We must aim to be consistently competitive in the 4-8 bracket of the world rankings, winning the odd game against 1-4, before we can realistically expect to turn up and beat the number 1 or 2 side in the world every time, even at home. I think we are getting closer to that, I'm sure TOTM will correct me, but we have now been inside the top 8 since September 2016. If we can consistently beat or run close our fellow teams that are generally in that bracket (e.g. Wales, Australia, South Africa) and nearly always those outside that bracket (e.g. France, Argentina, USA, Italy), then we can start to get upset about losing games like that one.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:38 am 
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Gave myself a couple of days before commenting on this. I’m not quite as despondent as others, we could and should have won this game against a side that are justifiably #2 in the world.

A few thoughts.

Tommy Seymour - said before the match that he and not Kinghorn should have been dropped to bring Maitland back in. His form has been poor for ages and he cost us by way of a stupid error for the first Irish try and the butchered 2 on 1 just before HT. He surely must be dropped v France?

Ryan Wilson - has been doing his best to make me eat my words these last 2 games. I’m not a fan but bloody hell did we miss him when he went off. Of course, a better option than Harley on the bench might have mitigated that.

Captaincy/Grieg - decision making seemed extremely poor to me. Several times we passed up 3 points in a tight game. Would have made all the difference in the last quarter when we were chasing 2 scores. Notwithstanding that it was a frustrating performance from Grieg. He has another gear and should use it a bit more. Also completely failed to manage comms with the ref.

Random Poite - I am always frustrated when this twat gets one of our games, and he certainly had some howlers this weekend. I am constantly shocked that a ref who struggles to communicate as much as he does still gets top class games. We should have still overcome his influence but his decisions had a material bearing on the outcome. Ireland could have had 3 yellows in the first half and the failure to review the challenge on Hogg was a shocker.

Other than that it was a case of so near yet so far. A percent or two more accuracy, a more fortunate bounce of the ball and we win that.

I fancy our chances against them in Japan.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:42 am 
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Ireland may have been ranked no. 2 in the world, maybe still are but there is no feckin way there are playing like a top 4 nation at the moment so i wouldn't try polishing that turd of a game with that. They were poor as well just not as poor as us but equally their game plan is far more conservative so their mistakes aren't as punishing as ours.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:18 am 
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Lorthern Nights wrote:
Ireland may have been ranked no. 2 in the world, maybe still are but there is no feckin way there are playing like a top 4 nation at the moment so i wouldn't try polishing that turd of a game with that. They were poor as well just not as poor as us but equally their game plan is far more conservative so their mistakes aren't as punishing as ours.


I can't say I particularly agree with that. They had a tough game against a rampant England and did what they had to do to beat us (comfortably I might add). The only other information you have to base their form on is autumn where they resoundingly won 4, including beating the ABs.

Ireland had a wobble, but they are still a top top side and I would bet on them beating almost every team in the world, including Scotland.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:23 am 
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ZT, your point about Greig not getting in the ear of the ref has been a problem for a long time - I still think he could have pushed it further in that WC QF. Whilst the Welsh and Irish go beyond what I think is reasonable, and that kind of thing should be stamped out, I don't think Greig does enough and it has cost us a fair bit over the last few seasons. To be less pushy on the field then take a swipe at the ref after is pretty poor form really.

I'm annoyed at the weekend but not dejected. I saw plenty of folk calling for Toony to go after the game which is insane. We are competing against everyone, playing a style of rugby that no one else, with the exception of NZ, can play, and a style that we love and is genuinely respected by other nations. It's high risk and sometimes doesn't click but I'd much, much prefer that to being scared to put it wide, endlessly recycling and scoring 2 tries in a whole tournament.

I think we need a bit of perspective about how much further above our weight we do punch, and also remember that there was a good chance of one of us being picked on the bench with this number of injuries a few short years ago.

I saying that, we should have won, and it's bloody annoying. We HAVE to take France. They are shite, really shite. They will no doubt come blasting out in the first 20 but we have to be good enough to take that and come back with our gameplan later on. I know it's Paris, but I will be far more pissed off if we don't beat them in a couple of weeks than I am now.

I'd rather not think about the England game at this stage...


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:23 am 
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zt1903 wrote:
Captaincy/Grieg - decision making seemed extremely poor to me. Several times we passed up 3 points in a tight game. Would have made all the difference in the last quarter when we were chasing 2 scores. Notwithstanding that it was a frustrating performance from Grieg. He has another gear and should use it a bit more. Also completely failed to manage comms with the ref.


Definitely, O'Mahony (fast becoming one of the most dislikable players in Irish rugby for me btw, not far behind Earls, Sexton and Murray) was on at the ref again and again to check the forward pass on the Johnson non-try, which he wasn't originally going to do. Why wasn't Greig at him to check the Hogg body check, or other decisions that went against us? I didn't particularly hear anyone complaining on the pitch.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:43 am 
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zt1903 wrote:
I fancy our chances against them in Japan.


Ireland at full strength or closer to it will be a completely different prospect in the RWC.

More concerning than the player errors is the game plans.

It is widely known that a missed tackle in our defensive system is extremely punishing. We continue to miss >10% of tackles per game. Why hasn't this been rectified? Two of their tries came from defensive errors in the middle third of the field. Is Laidlaw too slow to sweep?

In attack, we are so inventive and play at speed til we get close to the line then in becomes slow and turgid with seemingly little attempt to play quicker? Why? How often do we score from slowing it down and passing to a forward to hit it up that close to the line?

Wilson out of the 6N.

Jones and Hogg being assessed this week.


Last edited by Big D on Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:43 am 
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Wilson out for six nations (Hogg and Jones seeing specialists.

Really need some good injury news. How bad was Hardie’s injury, or is there anyone else due back?

Don’t think far away from Brown being put into back row.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:43 am 
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Alba wrote:
zt1903 wrote:
Captaincy/Grieg - decision making seemed extremely poor to me. Several times we passed up 3 points in a tight game. Would have made all the difference in the last quarter when we were chasing 2 scores. Notwithstanding that it was a frustrating performance from Grieg. He has another gear and should use it a bit more. Also completely failed to manage comms with the ref.


Definitely, O'Mahony (fast becoming one of the most dislikable players in Irish rugby for me btw, not far behind Earls, Sexton and Murray) was on at the ref again and again to check the forward pass on the Johnson non-try, which he wasn't originally going to do. Why wasn't Greig at him to check the Hogg body check, or other decisions that went against us? I didn't particularly hear anyone complaining on the pitch.


Greig does his complaining off the pitch.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:47 am 
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Ryan Wilson basically immortal when playing meh but after his best performances in years he gets injured. Typical Scotland.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:50 am 
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frillage wrote:
Wilson out for six nations (Hogg and Jones seeing specialists.

Really need some good injury news. How bad was Hardie’s injury, or is there anyone else due back?

Don’t think far away from Brown being put into back row.


Bradbury and Hamilton are due back any time soon. Graham played on Saturday for Newcastle. Crosbie is available. Hardie will hopefully be fit. Watson may not be far away (Although I wouldn't risk him).

The drop off to 3rd hooker (fit ones) is greater than playing any of the above if we have Brown as a back rower. Two of the above should come into the matchday 23 if close to fit.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:51 am 
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Ahh fudge. I really hope that doesnt mean we're stuck with Harley at 6 :?

Skinner might be back in time for France though, he's apparently had this injury before and said it was only a 2-3 week recovery.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:53 am 
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frillage wrote:
Wilson out for six nations (Hogg and Jones seeing specialists.

Really need some good injury news. How bad was Hardie’s injury, or is there anyone else due back?

Don’t think far away from Brown being put into back row.

Against France? Might be an option at this rate but back up hooker beyond Brown is not a strength. Back row stocks thinning out really quite badly. Is Bradbury not due back? Not sure about Fagerson or Thomson. Might see Ashe in v France, and Toonie has been known to play Swinson at 6.

If Hogg and Jones are out, then these injuries are the worst I can remember. That said, Jones hasn't been performing that well but Hogg would be a huge loss. Could see him doing serious damage in France if fit but ligaments in the shoulder can take a while to heal.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:00 am 
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dargotronV.1 wrote:
frillage wrote:
Wilson out for six nations (Hogg and Jones seeing specialists.

Really need some good injury news. How bad was Hardie’s injury, or is there anyone else due back?

Don’t think far away from Brown being put into back row.

Against France? Might be an option at this rate but back up hooker beyond Brown is not a strength. Back row stocks thinning out really quite badly. Is Bradbury not due back? Not sure about Fagerson or Thomson. Might see Ashe in v France, and Toonie has been known to play Swinson at 6.

If Hogg and Jones are out, then these injuries are the worst I can remember. That said, Jones hasn't been performing that well but Hogg would be a huge loss. Could see him doing serious damage in France if fit but ligaments in the shoulder can take a while to heal.


Probably not France but more injuries (and when is Turner due back?)


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:42 am 
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It is beyond frustrating that Wilson manages to get injured at the exact point when many of us had decided he might be worth his spot after all. I don’t think Brown will be risked in the back row, we have a number of other candidates. The concern is that Harley will probably start, though perhaps Toony will want him on the bench to cover lock too.

From where Hogg was prodding his shoulder I think he’s sprained his ACJ (between the top of the shoulder blade and the collar bone). There’s three grades of these - guessing it’s probably a grade 1 as he didn’t come off at once, but my gut reaction is we won’t see him play against France. However, the emergence of Kinghorn makes this less of a gut-punch than it would have been 2 years ago.

Ironically this ought to be a great time to try out some fringe players in advance of the RWC, but most of the likely candidates are also injured. 😐


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:04 pm 
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Lorthern Nights wrote:
Ireland may have been ranked no. 2 in the world, maybe still are but there is no feckin way there are playing like a top 4 nation at the moment so i wouldn't try polishing that turd of a game with that. They were poor as well just not as poor as us but equally their game plan is far more conservative so their mistakes aren't as punishing as ours.

I've seen a few folk bang the 2nd ranked drum. They were utter gash and lucky to be playing a Scotland who don't have the mentality to keep it together.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:24 pm 
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OptimisticJock wrote:
Lorthern Nights wrote:
Ireland may have been ranked no. 2 in the world, maybe still are but there is no feckin way there are playing like a top 4 nation at the moment so i wouldn't try polishing that turd of a game with that. They were poor as well just not as poor as us but equally their game plan is far more conservative so their mistakes aren't as punishing as ours.

I've seen a few folk bang the 2nd ranked drum. They were utter gash and lucky to be playing a Scotland who don't have the mentality to keep it together.


That's the really frustrating thing, in the first half we were more physical than them, beating them at their own game really, but stupid mistakes cost us and the 2nd half just dropped off. It's obviously impossible to say, but I really feel that if Hogg stayed on we would have won the game. Until 2 weeks ago they were seen as the world leaders.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:28 pm 
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So, if Hogg is out, what is the back three for France? Stick with Kinghorn, Seymour and Maitland, or roll the dice and bring in Graham?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:33 pm 
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Alba wrote:
So, if Hogg is out, what is the back three for France? Stick with Kinghorn, Seymour and Maitland, or roll the dice and bring in Graham?


I would go Kinghorm, Graham and Maitland.

I get the whole experience argument but Kinghorn and Graham have a relationship and Maitland a steadying hand.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:34 pm 
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Alba wrote:
So, if Hogg is out, what is the back three for France? Stick with Kinghorn, Seymour and Maitland, or roll the dice and bring in Graham?


If, presumably, we are going to try and run them ragged I'd like to see Kinghorn, Seymour and Graham. Their kicking game was so bad yesterday that I'm not sure we need to overly worry about high balls etc. Graham and Seymour will kick chase all day. fudge it, we can't win the championship and have to go to Twickenham, go for it.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:38 pm 
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slick wrote:
Alba wrote:
So, if Hogg is out, what is the back three for France? Stick with Kinghorn, Seymour and Maitland, or roll the dice and bring in Graham?


If, presumably, we are going to try and run them ragged I'd like to see Kinghorn, Seymour and Graham. Their kicking game was so bad yesterday that I'm not sure we need to overly worry about high balls etc. Graham and Seymour will kick chase all day. fudge it, we can't win the championship and have to go to Twickenham, go for it.


Absolutely nailed on that Townsend will go with Seymour, Maitland and Kinghorn, justified with saying that Graham will bring huge speed off the bench against a tired side. Graham on the bench unless he can find another one of his boys to bring in instead.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:45 pm 
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Graham has no chance. If Kinghorn can't start ahead if Seymour he's not got a hope of starting. If Horne is on the bench he has a chance at the 23 shirt but I still wouldn't be surprised to see Harris.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:50 pm 
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Biffer29 wrote:
slick wrote:
Alba wrote:
So, if Hogg is out, what is the back three for France? Stick with Kinghorn, Seymour and Maitland, or roll the dice and bring in Graham?


If, presumably, we are going to try and run them ragged I'd like to see Kinghorn, Seymour and Graham. Their kicking game was so bad yesterday that I'm not sure we need to overly worry about high balls etc. Graham and Seymour will kick chase all day. fudge it, we can't win the championship and have to go to Twickenham, go for it.


Absolutely nailed on that Townsend will go with Seymour, Maitland and Kinghorn, justified with saying that Graham will bring huge speed off the bench against a tired side. Graham on the bench unless he can find another one of his boys to bring in instead.


This.

Graham might get the nod to the bench as Mailland can cover FB but there is no way that toonie is starting Graham in Paris unless we have yet more injuries.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:25 pm 
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Lorthern Nights wrote:
Biffer29 wrote:
slick wrote:
Alba wrote:
So, if Hogg is out, what is the back three for France? Stick with Kinghorn, Seymour and Maitland, or roll the dice and bring in Graham?


If, presumably, we are going to try and run them ragged I'd like to see Kinghorn, Seymour and Graham. Their kicking game was so bad yesterday that I'm not sure we need to overly worry about high balls etc. Graham and Seymour will kick chase all day. fudge it, we can't win the championship and have to go to Twickenham, go for it.


Absolutely nailed on that Townsend will go with Seymour, Maitland and Kinghorn, justified with saying that Graham will bring huge speed off the bench against a tired side. Graham on the bench unless he can find another one of his boys to bring in instead.


This.

Graham might get the nod to the bench as Mailland can cover FB but there is no way that toonie is starting Graham in Paris unless we have yet more injuries.


So can Graham (cover fullback), although were it to be needed, I think you are right that Maitland would drop back over Graham.

I agree with the general thoughts - should be Graham, will be Seymour.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:28 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Posts: 4512
Location: Eryri
For all of Toony’s swashbuckling approach, he is ultra-conservative when it comes to selections and won’t pick on form. He has shown this often enough. He sticks with his favourites (even when they are inexplicable ones, such as Harris).

Laidlaw, for instance, is a great steadying influence, but if we actually want to do anything in the RWC we need someone faster off the mark. There is literally no chance of anyone else starting a big game unless Laidlaw is crocked, though.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:50 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:55 pm
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I think Richie Gray should be invited to training. Not to play yet but to get up to speed with the GT game plan. Dont think he has had that much exposure to it.


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