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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:04 am 
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I like haggis wrote:
Can someone explain the borders thing to me?

Why would a player from Hawick, Gala, Jed not want to play for Melrose when Melrose give them the best chance at professional rugby?


I think the players would, but I presume this is more about attracting supporters and sponsors.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:06 am 
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slick wrote:
I like haggis wrote:
Can someone explain the borders thing to me?

Why would a player from Hawick, Gala, Jed not want to play for Melrose when Melrose give them the best chance at professional rugby?


I think the players would, but I presume this is more about attracting supporters and sponsors.


Ah okay, thanks slick! In that case I understand. I'd have stuck with Melrose, as people have said a famous name that should attract sponsors and fans. They have so far anyway.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:13 am 
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I like haggis wrote:
slick wrote:
I like haggis wrote:
Can someone explain the borders thing to me?

Why would a player from Hawick, Gala, Jed not want to play for Melrose when Melrose give them the best chance at professional rugby?


I think the players would, but I presume this is more about attracting supporters and sponsors.


Ah okay, thanks slick! In that case I understand. I'd have stuck with Melrose, as people have said a famous name that should attract sponsors and fans. They have so far anyway.


I guess it's easier for them to brand it and try to "grow the brand", bit more difficult for Watsonians and Boroughmuir when they are 50m apart. Idiots.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:18 am 
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slick wrote:
Steamin Beamin wrote:
slick wrote:
nardol wrote:
Steamin Beamin wrote:



As someone who knows nothing about Scots rugby Melrose is the one iconic name even I know.

Unusual move.


I guess it's not the whole club changing it's name, just the Super6 entity. I can see the reasons behind it, trying to get the rest of the region involved. It won't work, but nonetheless.



I get why they've done it, it's just a shite name. It will be interesting to see the new jersey.


It is indeed a shite name! What are chances of other borders clubs/supporters getting behind this though? I'd say close to zero. I know in Edinburgh people won't walk across the road to watch another club and I imagine it's the same there.


Yeah, people will still see it as Melrose no matter what they call the team.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:26 am 
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slick wrote:
I like haggis wrote:
slick wrote:
I like haggis wrote:
Can someone explain the borders thing to me?

Why would a player from Hawick, Gala, Jed not want to play for Melrose when Melrose give them the best chance at professional rugby?


I think the players would, but I presume this is more about attracting supporters and sponsors.


Ah okay, thanks slick! In that case I understand. I'd have stuck with Melrose, as people have said a famous name that should attract sponsors and fans. They have so far anyway.


I guess it's easier for them to brand it and try to "grow the brand", bit more difficult for Watsonians and Boroughmuir when they are 50m apart. Idiots.


True but the idea tried and failed with the Reivers and they moved games and were professional. Although maybe given up on too soon.

Yeah the Boroughmuir Watsonians split is interesting. I'm disappointed Watsonians got a franchise over say Currie. As a private school team Watsonians will always do well but I thought the community aspect of Boroughmuir and potentially Currie were more helpful in the long run.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:26 am 
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Is it not the case that there will still be a Melrose amateur team under the super 6 team?

As well as trying to appeal to the wider borders public, it looks like Melrose are protecting the Melrose brand if anything, given the Super 6 is a bit of an experiment I think this makes sense. As said though all depends whether the wider Borders public wish to get behind it...I sure hope they do


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:34 am 
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dargotronV.1 wrote:
Is it not the case that there will still be a Melrose amateur team under the super 6 team?

As well as trying to appeal to the wider borders public, it looks like Melrose are protecting the Melrose brand if anything, given the Super 6 is a bit of an experiment I think this makes sense. As said though all depends whether the wider Borders public wish to get behind it...I sure hope they do


I don't think there is any chance they will.

I don't mind the idea of the Super6, it's worth giving it a go, but I think some kind of regional franchise system would have been better, moving "home" games around different clubs in the region, maybe even playing on a Sunday, and try and build a support from people from the region going to watch their "2nd team"


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:48 am 
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Hey this is an outside shot but if anybody knows of any spare tickets going for the Scotland Japan game, please let me know as I couldn't get tickets on the ballot yet will be there at the time. Thanks in advance :)


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:50 am 
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slick wrote:
dargotronV.1 wrote:
Is it not the case that there will still be a Melrose amateur team under the super 6 team?

As well as trying to appeal to the wider borders public, it looks like Melrose are protecting the Melrose brand if anything, given the Super 6 is a bit of an experiment I think this makes sense. As said though all depends whether the wider Borders public wish to get behind it...I sure hope they do


I don't think there is any chance they will.

I don't mind the idea of the Super6, it's worth giving it a go, but I think some kind of regional franchise system would have been better, moving "home" games around different clubs in the region, maybe even playing on a Sunday, and try and build a support from people from the region going to watch their "2nd team"

Aye, you're likely bang on. I can see the logic on potential future expansion all the same. Could see another Borders club in a future Super 8 being drafted in.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:35 am 
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nardol wrote:
Steamin Beamin wrote:



As someone who knows nothing about Scots rugby Melrose is the one iconic name even I know.

Unusual move.

It's not that unusual if you want to set yourself up as a borders team rather than Melrose and attract supporters from out with.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:29 pm 
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dargotronV.1 wrote:
slick wrote:
dargotronV.1 wrote:
Is it not the case that there will still be a Melrose amateur team under the super 6 team?

As well as trying to appeal to the wider borders public, it looks like Melrose are protecting the Melrose brand if anything, given the Super 6 is a bit of an experiment I think this makes sense. As said though all depends whether the wider Borders public wish to get behind it...I sure hope they do


I don't think there is any chance they will.

I don't mind the idea of the Super6, it's worth giving it a go, but I think some kind of regional franchise system would have been better, moving "home" games around different clubs in the region, maybe even playing on a Sunday, and try and build a support from people from the region going to watch their "2nd team"

Aye, you're likely bang on. I can see the logic on potential future expansion all the same. Could see another Borders club in a future Super 8 being drafted in.


If, and it is a pretty big if, the S6 is successful, where the nest 2 sides go will be interesting. Anywhere north of the forth , Glasgow and a second borders team would be fighting out with another 1 or 2 Edinburgh sides.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:50 pm 
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Grigg, Steyn, Pyrgos and G Graham all released from squad.

I also think I read the SRU are now debt free.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:16 pm 
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Was a bit surprised to see Steyn dropped, but....


‏@MarkPalmerST
Steyn probably the most surprising early departure, but word is that Chris Harris, his fellow wing/centre, has been impressing big time in camp. Coaches love his physicality, aggression, and ability to get involved again and again, especially in defence


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:59 pm 
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OptimisticJock wrote:
Grigg, Steyn, Pyrgos and G Graham all released from squad.

I also think I read the SRU are now debt free.


That would be pretty cool. Maybe it's next WC we are winning not this one.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:29 pm 
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https://theoffsideline.com/analysis-sru ... ingenuous/


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:39 pm 
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Steamin Beamin wrote:
https://theoffsideline.com/analysis-sru-debt-free-claim-disingenuous/


Didn't understand any of that :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:58 pm 
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Steamin Beamin wrote:
https://theoffsideline.com/analysis-sru-debt-free-claim-disingenuous/


Excellent analysis! Anyone else feel that the salary levels for the Executive Directors seem a little high for a company turning over c£60m?

The increase in operating costs don't seem to be generating the additional income that would justify them. The main increase in income this year compared to last is the ticket sales and we all know this is one that can fluctuate significantly depending upon team performance. It seems a bit duplicitous to split the staff numbers by category but to not do the same for the wage bill. Worry is they are trying to hide something.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:35 pm 
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dpedin wrote:
Steamin Beamin wrote:
https://theoffsideline.com/analysis-sru-debt-free-claim-disingenuous/


Excellent analysis! Anyone else feel that the salary levels for the Executive Directors seem a little high for a company turning over c£60m?

Those were my thoughts. They are doing all right for themselves.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:44 pm 
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I like haggis wrote:
Yeah the Boroughmuir Watsonians split is interesting. I'm disappointed Watsonians got a franchise over say Currie. As a private school team Watsonians will always do well but I thought the community aspect of Boroughmuir and potentially Currie were more helpful in the long run.


The financial integrity of the clubs was a big factor. Currie have been on shaky ground financially for a long time.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:51 pm 
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slick wrote:
Steamin Beamin wrote:
https://theoffsideline.com/analysis-sru-debt-free-claim-disingenuous/

Didn't understand any of that :thumbup:


Anything written by The Offside Line has to read in the context that they hate the SRU, and Dodson in particular, and would find fault if they said they'd found a gold mine under Murrayfield.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:00 pm 
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dpedin wrote:
Steamin Beamin wrote:
https://theoffsideline.com/analysis-sru-debt-free-claim-disingenuous/

Excellent analysis! Anyone else feel that the salary levels for the Executive Directors seem a little high for a company turning over c£60m?

The increase in operating costs don't seem to be generating the additional income that would justify them. The main increase in income this year compared to last is the ticket sales and we all know this is one that can fluctuate significantly depending upon team performance. It seems a bit duplicitous to split the staff numbers by category but to not do the same for the wage bill. Worry is they are trying to hide something.


According to my wife, they meet all statutory reporting requirements and have reported in this way for years. Certainly since my wife last bid for their audit.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:29 pm 
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dpedin wrote:
Steamin Beamin wrote:
https://theoffsideline.com/analysis-sru-debt-free-claim-disingenuous/


Excellent analysis! Anyone else feel that the salary levels for the Executive Directors seem a little high for a company turning over c£60m?

The increase in operating costs don't seem to be generating the additional income that would justify them. The main increase in income this year compared to last is the ticket sales and we all know this is one that can fluctuate significantly depending upon team performance. It seems a bit duplicitous to split the staff numbers by category but to not do the same for the wage bill. Worry is they are trying to hide something.

I'd have to respectively disagree. It reads like a journalist interpreting financial statements.

There will be plenty of £60m turnover businesses out there shelling out at least that much and more (as well as plenty that are paying less).

It's not really in the nature of the business for the costs to be leading the turnover. They can't really just invest in extra bodies and go out and win more contracts. Which means costs have to be controlled based on the income available. They're still running a surplus which will be reinvested back into the business as they are effectively a non-profit organisation with no shareholders to be generating wealth for by boosting profits.

Comparing the movement in income from year to year isn't the best because in 2017 and 2016 it was the other income that got the big boost from sponsorship deals and Premier Sports + the SA teams coming on board. That's remained consistent (and will until the next renegotiation). Meanwhile the ticket income has jumped from 2018 to 2019 mainly off the back of having an extra game in the Six Nations and a share of an extra game in the Autumn. Fairer comparison might be with the same year in the previous RWC cycle which would have had a similar fixture profile and timings. Since 2015 the ticket income has increased by £5.6m and the other income by £11.2m. So for the OL to suggest that ticket income is driving the increase in revenue is, to use their own words, 'disingenous at best'.

The staff numbers / wages and salaries notes are based on the requirements of Financial Reporting Standard 102 (a riveting read by the way x( ) so nowt to do with hiding anything.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:06 pm 
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topofthemoon wrote:
dpedin wrote:
Steamin Beamin wrote:
https://theoffsideline.com/analysis-sru-debt-free-claim-disingenuous/


Excellent analysis! Anyone else feel that the salary levels for the Executive Directors seem a little high for a company turning over c£60m?

The increase in operating costs don't seem to be generating the additional income that would justify them. The main increase in income this year compared to last is the ticket sales and we all know this is one that can fluctuate significantly depending upon team performance. It seems a bit duplicitous to split the staff numbers by category but to not do the same for the wage bill. Worry is they are trying to hide something.

I'd have to respectively disagree. It reads like a journalist interpreting financial statements.

There will be plenty of £60m turnover businesses out there shelling out at least that much and more (as well as plenty that are paying less).

It's not really in the nature of the business for the costs to be leading the turnover. They can't really just invest in extra bodies and go out and win more contracts. Which means costs have to be controlled based on the income available. They're still running a surplus which will be reinvested back into the business as they are effectively a non-profit organisation with no shareholders to be generating wealth for by boosting profits.

Comparing the movement in income from year to year isn't the best because in 2017 and 2016 it was the other income that got the big boost from sponsorship deals and Premier Sports + the SA teams coming on board. That's remained consistent (and will until the next renegotiation). Meanwhile the ticket income has jumped from 2018 to 2019 mainly off the back of having an extra game in the Six Nations and a share of an extra game in the Autumn. Fairer comparison might be with the same year in the previous RWC cycle which would have had a similar fixture profile and timings. Since 2015 the ticket income has increased by £5.6m and the other income by £11.2m. So for the OL to suggest that ticket income is driving the increase in revenue is, to use their own words, 'disingenous at best'.

The staff numbers / wages and salaries notes are based on the requirements of Financial Reporting Standard 102 (a riveting read by the way x( ) so nowt to do with hiding anything.

Also from the article suggesting the BT deal was a game-changer in terms of the debt is overegging it when £11m was cleared prior to BT coming on board. Repayments to the loan and overdraft only increased by c. £700k per year so it's probably sped up clearing it by around 3 years. Bigger impact has been on investment into the game I would suggest.

"the ability to repay debt is a function of an operating surplus – and has nothing whatsoever to do with turnover". Setting aside the fact that turnover is one of the key determinants of an operating surplus this isn't accurate. The ability to repay debt is a function of cashflow which is impacted by a number of factors other than operating profit.

"It is no big deal and hardly rocket science – if you do not pay your debts, your bank balance goes up." Pretty dodgy ground suggesting the SRU are boosting their bank balance by not paying their suppliers or other creditors. In fact trade creditors have only increased by £250k. The reason for the improved working capital position is actually an increase in advance receipts. So that's cash the SRU have received in 2019 but have to defer to recognise as income in next year's accounts as it relates to events that will take place in the 2019/20 year end.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:06 pm 
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slick wrote:
Steamin Beamin wrote:
https://theoffsideline.com/analysis-sru-debt-free-claim-disingenuous/


Didn't understand any of that :thumbup:


Same, that's why I posted it without comment. I knew someone would break it all down though. Thanks topofthemoon :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:34 am 
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All hail Gordon McKie, got the ball rolling. :nod:


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:31 pm 
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I've just seen an advert for the England Wales match and Piers Francis is going to win his 5th cap. What have I missed there?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:34 am 
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OptimisticJock wrote:
I've just seen an advert for the England Wales match and Piers Francis is going to win his 5th cap. What have I missed there?


4 caps?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:05 am 
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topofthemoon wrote:
dpedin wrote:
Steamin Beamin wrote:
https://theoffsideline.com/analysis-sru-debt-free-claim-disingenuous/


Excellent analysis! Anyone else feel that the salary levels for the Executive Directors seem a little high for a company turning over c£60m?

The increase in operating costs don't seem to be generating the additional income that would justify them. The main increase in income this year compared to last is the ticket sales and we all know this is one that can fluctuate significantly depending upon team performance. It seems a bit duplicitous to split the staff numbers by category but to not do the same for the wage bill. Worry is they are trying to hide something.

I'd have to respectively disagree. It reads like a journalist interpreting financial statements.

There will be plenty of £60m turnover businesses out there shelling out at least that much and more (as well as plenty that are paying less).

It's not really in the nature of the business for the costs to be leading the turnover. They can't really just invest in extra bodies and go out and win more contracts. Which means costs have to be controlled based on the income available. They're still running a surplus which will be reinvested back into the business as they are effectively a non-profit organisation with no shareholders to be generating wealth for by boosting profits.

Comparing the movement in income from year to year isn't the best because in 2017 and 2016 it was the other income that got the big boost from sponsorship deals and Premier Sports + the SA teams coming on board. That's remained consistent (and will until the next renegotiation). Meanwhile the ticket income has jumped from 2018 to 2019 mainly off the back of having an extra game in the Six Nations and a share of an extra game in the Autumn. Fairer comparison might be with the same year in the previous RWC cycle which would have had a similar fixture profile and timings. Since 2015 the ticket income has increased by £5.6m and the other income by £11.2m. So for the OL to suggest that ticket income is driving the increase in revenue is, to use their own words, 'disingenous at best'.

The staff numbers / wages and salaries notes are based on the requirements of Financial Reporting Standard 102 (a riveting read by the way x( ) so nowt to do with hiding anything.


Journo reading finance statements is what I thought as well.

It's like saying that you haven't paid off your mortgage because you still have stuff on your credit card each month.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:22 am 
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Who runs TOL and what is their beef with the SRU? It’s patently obvious to everyone they have a serious agenda when it comes to the SRU, as noted above. Whilst I’m not going to suggest Dodson hasn’t made mistakes, it would take a seriously myopic view to not understand the siesmic improvement in our position between the early noughties and now. The life of the executive is to claim these improvements as their own doing, just as it falls on them to take the blame if things go the other way. All this is a long winded way of saying that I think Dodson has done a good job, good enough that England were rumoured to be sniffing around earlier this year. I definitely think we would regret it if we let him leave. For the avoidance of doubt, I’m Pretty sure his salary would increase significantly with the move too.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:07 pm 
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It is good to question the SRU but feel the OL are too far the other way.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:31 pm 
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Alba wrote:
Who runs TOL and what is their beef with the SRU? It’s patently obvious to everyone they have a serious agenda when it comes to the SRU, as noted above. Whilst I’m not going to suggest Dodson hasn’t made mistakes, it would take a seriously myopic view to not understand the siesmic improvement in our position between the early noughties and now. The life of the executive is to claim these improvements as their own doing, just as it falls on them to take the blame if things go the other way. All this is a long winded way of saying that I think Dodson has done a good job, good enough that England were rumoured to be sniffing around earlier this year. I definitely think we would regret it if we let him leave. For the avoidance of doubt, I’m Pretty sure his salary would increase significantly with the move too.


It's mainly David Barnes isn't it?

I reckon it's just that he's hot so many mates in the clubs that it colours his views.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:21 pm 
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frillage wrote:
OptimisticJock wrote:
I've just seen an advert for the England Wales match and Piers Francis is going to win his 5th cap. What have I missed there?


4 caps?

Walked into that I suppose. It's been a few years since he was at embra but he never looked int class.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:22 pm 
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OptimisticJock wrote:
frillage wrote:
OptimisticJock wrote:
I've just seen an advert for the England Wales match and Piers Francis is going to win his 5th cap. What have I missed there?


4 caps?

Walked into that I suppose. It's been a few years since he was at embra but he never looked int class.


He went back to NZ and became a Kiwi again so England snapped him up at drop of a hat!

In fairness he picked up a contract with Blues and looked a pretty solid stabilising influence outside the ginger chaos of West.
I think the hope was he would be the same for Ford when Faz not about.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:57 pm 
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So the first warm up game this Saturday. After seeing Ireland, Wales and England all play this weekend it feels not before time.

I hear Toonie is keen to play those who have been out for the longest. So could be Embra heavy. Would be pleased to see the following all get some game time

Graham
Hutchinson
Taylor - in midfield please
Kinghorn
Fagerson Jnr (I know he played the final but he's on form)
Thompson

Would imagine Hogg and Russell remain cotton wool bound for a week longer yet. Unleash them at home v France.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:30 am 
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If Russell is cotton wooled I wonder who the second option at 10 is - either Laidlaw or Hutchinson? You presume they'll both play there a bit in the warm ups to be ready should Russell or Hastings go down in the world cup.

I hope it's not too experimental, players won't be able to show what they're all about in a totally mad line up.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:10 am 
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I like haggis wrote:
If Russell is cotton wooled I wonder who the second option at 10 is - either Laidlaw or Hutchinson? You presume they'll both play there a bit in the warm ups to be ready should Russell or Hastings go down in the world cup.

I hope it's not too experimental, players won't be able to show what they're all about in a totally mad line up.

The only real squad newbies are Blade, Stewart and Hutchinson. Fagerson Jnr is the other standout inexperienced member, being relatively young with 3 caps. No reason why any side v France shouldn't be relatively experienced therefore but bugger me if we get pumped in France by the wonderkids over there to kick off our WC campaign.

Would think Laidlaw will provide 10 back up, he is experienced there. Not sure if Hutchison has played at 10 in recent years/since he broke through? Would be risky (the Toonie way)

When is the final squad announced? England naming theirs somewhat prematurely


Last edited by dargotronV.1 on Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:57 am 
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dargotronV.1 wrote:
I like haggis wrote:
If Russell is cotton wooled I wonder who the second option at 10 is - either Laidlaw or Hutchinson? You presume they'll both play there a bit in the warm ups to be ready should Russell or Hastings go down in the world cup.

I hope it's not too experimental, players won't be able to show what they're all about in a totally mad line up.

The only real squad newbies are Blade, Stewart and Hutchinson. Fagerson Jnr is the other standout inexperienced member, being relatively young with 3 caps. No reason why any side v France shouldn't be relatively experienced therefore but bugger me if we get pumped in France by the wonderkids over there to kick off our WC campaign.

Would think Laidlaw will provide 10 back up, he is experienced there. Not sure if Hutchison has played at 10 in recent years/since he broke through? Would be risky (the Toonie way)

When is the final squad announced? England naming theirs somewhat prematurely, seems a bit premature.


I'd forgotten about the option of Laidlaw covering 10, that would definitely be wise. It would enable you to leave P Horne out, as with Jones, Johnson, Taylor, Hutchison you have a pretty impressive set of centres, assuming Hutchison translates his form to the international arena. I wouldn't want Laidlaw covering 10 in a knock out game, but in a pool game against Russia or Samoa it would be fine.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:25 pm 
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BBC Scotland will show one match a week from the Super 6. Each team will have at least 3 televised fixtures.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:55 pm 
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OptimisticJock wrote:
BBC Scotland will show one match a week from the Super 6. Each team will have at least 3 televised fixtures.

That's great :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:23 pm 
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dargotronV.1 wrote:
I like haggis wrote:
If Russell is cotton wooled I wonder who the second option at 10 is - either Laidlaw or Hutchinson? You presume they'll both play there a bit in the warm ups to be ready should Russell or Hastings go down in the world cup.

I hope it's not too experimental, players won't be able to show what they're all about in a totally mad line up.

The only real squad newbies are Blade, Stewart and Hutchinson. Fagerson Jnr is the other standout inexperienced member, being relatively young with 3 caps. No reason why any side v France shouldn't be relatively experienced therefore but bugger me if we get pumped in France by the wonderkids over there to kick off our WC campaign.

Would think Laidlaw will provide 10 back up, he is experienced there. Not sure if Hutchison has played at 10 in recent years/since he broke through? Would be risky (the Toonie way)

When is the final squad announced? England naming theirs somewhat prematurely


Toonie did mention Hutchinson playing at 10 in the squad announcement I think.

I also complety forgot about Horne playing 10. But wouldn't surprise me to see Hutchinson at 10, especially if he performs well at 13.


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