Planet Rugby Forum

Quote:
We are deeply disappointed to be in this position of having not qualified as Americas 2 for the 2019 Men’s Rugby World Cup. We appreciate the Canadian rugby community is dismayed at this result. This is not acceptable for Canadian Rugby.

The entire organization & our Men’s 15s program will finalize a robust schedule & plan to ensure the best preparation for a successful competition and qualification through the 2019 Men’s Rugby World Cup repechage tournament in November, 2018.

The failure to qualify as Americas 2 for the 2019 Men’s Rugby World Cup has significant financial challenges for Rugby Canada with a loss of key 2019 Men’s Rugby World Cup planning and preparation funding and missed commercial opportunities in the form of a marquee international match planned for November. The organization will be reviewing these implications, ensuring prioritization is placed on the Men’s 15s program’s preparation for the Men’s Rugby World Cup repechage tournament this November.

Building on the extensive Men’s 15s program review that was completed in July 2017, Rugby Canada continues to undertake a significant change in strategic direction with a focus on building a long-term plan that develops our current and aspiring high performance Canadian rugby players to be competitive at the International level. In addition to the new leadership that has been brought into the Men’s 15s program, Rugby Canada will continue to bring experienced high performance leaders to the organization who will work with our existing development programs at the Club and Provincial levels, while embracing new performance program opportunities for our current and future domestic players.

Rugby Canada is keenly focused and dedicated on returning the Men’s 15s program to being the leading Tier 2 nation in World Rugby.

Sincerely,
RUGBY CANADA

Allen Vansen
Chief Executive Officer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not another letter? What next - Tim Powers saying send me your emails but only ask me questions I want to read?

The letter is actually quite insulting to Canadian rugby supporters. Between it and Rees's quotes in the Times Colonist piece they sure read like the persons who directed Canadian rugby to these depths are saying, "don't worry lads, we've got it covered."

I have no problem benching Mack, Barkwill, Buydens (who I thought did well enough in the scrums), but whom replaces them? We have nobody else. Three coaches did/do not want Ferguson; two did/do not want Howard. Are DSD and Ilnicki still with the squad? The rest of the ARC are not development games. We have to win them to gain a bit of traction.

I can understand why Patrick Finlay does not want to come over, but why do Chris Taylor and Justin Blanchet, for example, not want to play for Canada? We have no idea if they are good enough, but they should be in the system challenging for spots. Hell, if Ryley Jacks cannot make the Melbourne Storm, go down there and try to get him up here. I do not care if he has never played rugby. I will take my chance that a good league back can make the move. In other words, we need options; we need players.

Nieghorn wrote:A mate posted on one of the many fall-out threads going around that sevens is a money loser for World Rugby and that the RWC of 15s is what pays for it. Is this true?

If true, is it all about propping it up for the Olympics?

I would guess that the majority of the men's 7s events are profitable and the majority (all standalones?) of the women's 7s events are not. But you have to be promoting the women's 7s as part of the Olympics and it's a healthy thing for the game long term to be promoting the women's form.

canuckles wrote:

Nieghorn wrote:A mate posted on one of the many fall-out threads going around that sevens is a money loser for World Rugby and that the RWC of 15s is what pays for it. Is this true?

If true, is it all about propping it up for the Olympics?

Chris LeFevre has confirmed it. He is the only one with WR connections that has gone on record to say it. My take is World Rugby is shocked at the little or no knock-on effect from the Olympics.

It's not surprising in the slightest. The way you make money is sponsorship, ticket sales, and TV rights. There's nothing in TV rights, and you only host one event, you're not the home team half the time in the sport as you are in XVs.

Best of luck to the Canadians, it's in USA Rugby's interest you guys are better than you are now presently.

CanNZ2000 wrote:

canuckles wrote:

Bowens wrote:Not sure if it's been discussed but Kingsley Jones has to go, right? No improvement over Crowley or Anscombe.

No; he stays. I think WR might be paying his ticket.

I have heard they are too. So far I have no issue with him. Perhaps I will by the end of the year.

He has done a dogshit job at T2 countries in the past, but turning over coaches constantly isn't going to help Canada dig out of this hole and obviously the problems run much deeper than the head coach. If one of the concerns is talent ID and over-reliance on centrally contracted players, a new coach from overseas is going to be starting from complete scratch in terms of scouting and getting the lay of the land, which means he's going to rely as heavily as ever on the current Rugby Canada wisdom in selection. Of course you could go domestic, but then you have issues with quality and with favoritism to their past clubs, both of which were issues for us the last time we had a domestic coach.

Flyin Ryan wrote:

canuckles wrote:

Nieghorn wrote:A mate posted on one of the many fall-out threads going around that sevens is a money loser for World Rugby and that the RWC of 15s is what pays for it. Is this true?

If true, is it all about propping it up for the Olympics?

Chris LeFevre has confirmed it. He is the only one with WR connections that has gone on record to say it. My take is World Rugby is shocked at the little or no knock-on effect from the Olympics.

It's not surprising in the slightest. The way you make money is sponsorship, ticket sales, and TV rights. There's nothing in TV rights, and you only host one event, you're not the home team half the time in the sport as you are in XVs.

Best of luck to the Canadians, it's in USA Rugby's interest you guys are better than you are now presently.

Not sure you're seeing the whole picture here. World Rugby gets a cut of every tournament staged around the world. For the men, the vast majority, if not all (seems like the 2nd Asian leg might not be), are profitable with most generating considerable profits. They also get some TV rights and sponsorship. That money then gets used to pay for travel for the teams and perhaps some other funding. It seems pretty likely that that is either breaking even or a slight profit for World Rugby. But then you have to pay for all of the travel to the women's events, which likely lose considerable money, so 7s as a whole ends up losing money. Of course someone with the actual financials would actually know the amounts, but that's what it seems like to me at least.

goeagles wrote:

Flyin Ryan wrote:

canuckles wrote:

Nieghorn wrote:A mate posted on one of the many fall-out threads going around that sevens is a money loser for World Rugby and that the RWC of 15s is what pays for it. Is this true?

If true, is it all about propping it up for the Olympics?

Chris LeFevre has confirmed it. He is the only one with WR connections that has gone on record to say it. My take is World Rugby is shocked at the little or no knock-on effect from the Olympics.

It's not surprising in the slightest. The way you make money is sponsorship, ticket sales, and TV rights. There's nothing in TV rights, and you only host one event, you're not the home team half the time in the sport as you are in XVs.

Best of luck to the Canadians, it's in USA Rugby's interest you guys are better than you are now presently.

Not sure you're seeing the whole picture here. World Rugby gets a cut of every tournament staged around the world. For the men, the vast majority, if not all (seems like the 2nd Asian leg might not be), are profitable with most generating considerable profits. They also get some TV rights and sponsorship. That money then gets used to pay for travel for the teams and perhaps some other funding. It seems pretty likely that that is either breaking even or a slight profit for World Rugby. But then you have to pay for all of the travel to the women's events, which likely lose considerable money, so 7s as a whole ends up losing money. Of course someone with the actual financials would actually know the amounts, but that's what it seems like to me at least.

I'm talking about one national union only, not World Rugby. World Rugby may make a profit but if you're Rugby Canada responsible for funding your own 7s teams, so what? Does the World Sevens Series subsidize the full cost of the 7s national teams? If so, then there shouldn't be any money being taken away from XVs to fund it.

If what is stated is truth that World Rugby thought 7s popularly would take off as a spectator sport following admission to the Olympics, that's quite a jump across a canyon to reach that conclusion. I mean I watched it in the Rio Olympics, but even for people into the Olympics, most did not because it was 2nd-tier content compared to everything else going on at the Games.

Flyin Ryan wrote:

goeagles wrote:

Flyin Ryan wrote:

canuckles wrote:

Nieghorn wrote:A mate posted on one of the many fall-out threads going around that sevens is a money loser for World Rugby and that the RWC of 15s is what pays for it. Is this true?

If true, is it all about propping it up for the Olympics?

Chris LeFevre has confirmed it. He is the only one with WR connections that has gone on record to say it. My take is World Rugby is shocked at the little or no knock-on effect from the Olympics.

It's not surprising in the slightest. The way you make money is sponsorship, ticket sales, and TV rights. There's nothing in TV rights, and you only host one event, you're not the home team half the time in the sport as you are in XVs.

Best of luck to the Canadians, it's in USA Rugby's interest you guys are better than you are now presently.

Not sure you're seeing the whole picture here. World Rugby gets a cut of every tournament staged around the world. For the men, the vast majority, if not all (seems like the 2nd Asian leg might not be), are profitable with most generating considerable profits. They also get some TV rights and sponsorship. That money then gets used to pay for travel for the teams and perhaps some other funding. It seems pretty likely that that is either breaking even or a slight profit for World Rugby. But then you have to pay for all of the travel to the women's events, which likely lose considerable money, so 7s as a whole ends up losing money. Of course someone with the actual financials would actually know the amounts, but that's what it seems like to me at least.

I'm talking about one national union only, not World Rugby. World Rugby may make a profit but if you're Rugby Canada responsible for funding your own 7s teams, so what? Does the World Sevens Series subsidize the full cost of the 7s national teams? If so, then there shouldn't be any money being taken away from XVs to fund it.

If what is stated is truth that World Rugby thought 7s popularly would take off as a spectator sport following admission to the Olympics, that's quite a jump across a canyon to reach that conclusion. I mean I watched it in the Rio Olympics, but even for people into the Olympics, most did not because it was 2nd-tier content compared to everything else going on at the Games.

I think we are roughly on the same page here. The discussion was about whether or not WR was losing money on 7s and not individual unions, though.

List below for our U18 squad. I cannot recall so many Prairie West boys on the team, lead by Tyler Duguid, a promising prop. He is the type of good young athlete that Canadian rugby has to keep in its system. I am unsure of the value of these type of junior tours, though.

Canada’s under-18 roster for Hong Kong tour:

Clay Guthrie – (Red Deer Titans RFC/St. Dominics CSS) Ponoka, AB
Cameron Davey – (Ajax Wanderers RFC/Dunbarton HS) Pickering, ON
Tyler Duguid – (NorWesters RFC/Harry Ainlay HS) Edmonton, AB
Cameron Hurst – (Mississauga Blues RFC/Streetsville Secondary School) Mississauga, ON
William Matthews – (Beaconsfield RFC/John Abbott College) Montreal, QC
Michael Reid – (Druids RFC/Vinyl Ridge Academy) Edmonton, AB
Daniel Clement – (Edmonton Clansmen RFC/Edmonton Christian High School) Edmonton, AB
Carson Young – (Oshawa Vikings RFC/Donald A Wilson SS) Courtice, ON
Matthew McDougall Percillier – (Cowichan RFC/Brentwood College School) Mill Bay, BC
Brock Webster – (Oshawa Vikings/Uxbridge Secondary School) Uxbridge, ON
Liam Mclaughlin – (Ajax Wanderers RFC/Dunbaton HS) Pickering, ON
Ian Maclean – (Cobourg Saxons RFC/St Andrews College) Port Hope, ON
Pierre-Hardy Gouombas – (Ottawa Beavers RFC/St.Peter Catholic High School) Ottawa, ON
Keagan Read – (Cobourg Saxons/St Mary’s High School) Port Hope, ON
James Macdonald – (Cowichan Rugby Club/Shawnigan Lake School) Surrey, BC
Cameron Farnell – (Enfield RFC Elmsdale/Hants East Rural High School) Elmsdale, NS
Myles Maloney – (Brantford Harlequins RFC/Paris District SS) St George, ON
Jared Augustin – (Oshawa Vikings RFC/St Stephans CSS) Newcastle, ON
Austin Creighton – (Strathcona Druids RFC/ McNally High School) Edmonton, AB
Izzak Kelly – (Bayside Sharks RFC/ Earl Marriott Secondary School) White Rock, BC
Liam Casey – (KL Saracens/International School of Kuala Lumpur) Kuala Lumpur
Dean Mason – (Regina Highlanders RFC/ Shawnigan Lake School) Regina, SK
Piers von Dadelszen – (Old Caterhamians RFC/ Whitgift School) Merstham, NL
Kevin Oh – (Waterloo County RFC/Waterloo Collegiate) Waterloo, ON
Alexander Hickman – (Swilers RFC/Upper Canada College) St John’s, NL
Glenn Butler – (Grimsby Gentlemen RFC/Blessed Trinity Catholic High School) Grimsby, ON
Jarvis Dashkewytch – (Castaway Wanderers RFC/ Lambrick/Canadian Sports School) Delta, BC
Alexander Brundage – (Richmond RFC London/Sedbergh School Cumbria England) London, UK
Canada U18 versus Hong Kong U19s Schedule:

Friday, March 23rd
Kick off: TBD

Tuesday, March 27th
Kick off TBD

Saturday, March 31st
Kick off TBD

Know anything about the boys in foreign schools? Ones who had the chance to move over or 'poaches'?

I actually wrote Tim Powers and Maria Samson with some of my opinions on the state of the game and the efficiency of our talent development efforts (or lack thereof), and one thing I really urged them to do is track the kids that get into these programs and see where they end up.

I'm sure the majority will end up in club rugby, but I know several more people who've played for their provincial team as a teen (and four for U17 Canada) who quit the sport altogether by the time they were in their early 20s than those who represented either as adults. You wouldn't expect many to make the senior national team, especially those who started with Ontario U14 and U16 when they just happened to be bigger / faster / more rugby smart than their peers. But tracking data and even exit interviews later-on might sort out how productive they are and where the value in them lies. (I don't deny that they're fun and help those individuals learn about themselves and grow to some degree, but is it the best way for a relatively poor sporting body to spend its cash?)

Nieghorn wrote:Know anything about the boys in foreign schools? Ones who had the chance to move over or 'poaches'?

I actually wrote Tim Powers and Maria Samson with some of my opinions on the state of the game and the efficiency of our talent development efforts (or lack thereof), and one thing I really urged them to do is track the kids that get into these programs and see where they end up.

I'm sure the majority will end up in club rugby, but I know several more people who've played for their provincial team as a teen (and four for U17 Canada) who quit the sport altogether by the time they were in their early 20s than those who represented either as adults. You wouldn't expect many to make the senior national team, especially those who started with Ontario U14 and U16 when they just happened to be bigger / faster / more rugby smart than their peers. But tracking data and even exit interviews later-on might sort out how productive they are and where the value in them lies. (I don't deny that they're fun and help those individuals learn about themselves and grow to some degree, but is it the best way for a relatively poor sporting body to spend its cash?)

I know nothing of the overseas boys. Guys I know a bit about are the Edmonton young men and the prairie dog, Mason.

You are absolutely correct about a 'lost' player analysis. It would not be too difficult to put into place. All sports lose a high number of 'its' athletes after high school. The problem with rugby is the player base is so small, any loss of players, especially the promising ones, compounds the issue. The quality of junior rugby out here is low. One has to be circumspect about a promising player's potential. If they can compete with the Ontario and BC players, it is a good sign. However, the rugby guys play football and if you are good at both, like Duguid, you really have to love rugby to keep going. They will choose University and football, and one cannot blame them.

So much of the talk in Canadian rugby is either head in the snow or head in the clouds stuff. As you mentioned, there is little to no detailed analysis in any aspect of the sport. One of my head shakers is the "Bring back the Pacific Pride." Good grief, the people who have actually studied the program know it is a non-starter. Been there, done that.

I read so many threads since the weekend and in the week before, and there were so many ridiculous suggestions. Maria and I had a few emails back and forth about it. Tim got back to me today saying he intends to read what I wrote by the weekend. I'm not expecting RC to take on all I said that I think is practical, but offered my experience with coach education programs and development officers overseas to let them know what may be possible with some tweaking.

It was impressed upon me - and I had to agree - that the provinces could do more. I also chimed in that clubs could do more too in the community, provided their rep knew the right things for the good of rugby. I do wonder if provincials are more about bragging rights and coach egos than true talent development? (I've certainly seen many egos in play the times I took kids to try outs and ended up helping select, and in some of the people I coached against when I helped coach regional teams / and against people at club level I knew were rep coaches.)

Canuckles - what is the lowdown on the Pride?

I know they produced some good players but they may have got there without it. I knew one guy who went in with promise and Clark destroyed him.

I played against them. Those boys were fit and I wasn’t.

OttawaKat wrote:Canuckles - what is the lowdown on the Pride?

I know they produced some good players but they may have got there without it. I knew one guy who went in with promise and Clark destroyed him.

I played against them. Those boys were fit and I wasn’t.

You mentioned one, the power Clark had, especially when he became head man of the national team. Being the head guy of the, main, development team and of the national team is a problem in theory and was a problem in practice. The decision never should have been made. I know RC only subsidized a portion of the PP budget, but when Clark was not coaching the NSMT, he was dealing with PP issues on and off the field. There was also the, I will call it interpretation, that if you did not go to the program your chances of making it to the national team were compromised. It is in my notes somewhere in my basement, that circa 2002, the only new graduate to the national team who did not go to the Pride was, I believe, Lawson.

The Pride program had a great start: Williams, Baugh, Tait, etc. However, as the program went along, and, importantly, as professionalism in rugby took hold, it could no longer produce as high a quality of player for the national team that was needed. The last two years of the program were dismal. There were other issues: funding, mainland clubs hated it, etc. I get it that the majority of the players loved the program and liked Clark, but the back half of the years of the program were not a success for one of the main stated purposes of its existence: improving the quality of the national team.

Thanks. I do recall it fading like that, and I do recall the conflict of interest issue.

Mainland clubs really hated it. I remember that clearly.

Nieghorn wrote:I read so many threads since the weekend and in the week before, and there were so many ridiculous suggestions. Maria and I had a few emails back and forth about it. Tim got back to me today saying he intends to read what I wrote by the weekend. I'm not expecting RC to take on all I said that I think is practical, but offered my experience with coach education programs and development officers overseas to let them know what may be possible with some tweaking.

It was impressed upon me - and I had to agree - that the provinces could do more. I also chimed in that clubs could do more too in the community, provided their rep knew the right things for the good of rugby. I do wonder if provincials are more about bragging rights and coach egos than true talent development? (I've certainly seen many egos in play the times I took kids to try outs and ended up helping select, and in some of the people I coached against when I helped coach regional teams / and against people at club level I knew were rep coaches.)

I believe Maria is relatively new to the BOD. It is unfair for her to have the problems dumped onto her lap. There are others who have been in positions of power since 2012. They are the people primarily responsible for the absence of mind that Rugby Canada has taken to our men's XVs in the last five years.

The problems in our lower, middle and top tiers need different applications. I have always been a proponent of attacking the middle (provincial) to also help the lower and top levels. But those days are gone. We have no idea if it would have worked; it was never tried. But we do know what does not work. I always have a laugh when BC would say it was not interested in any type of Canadian 'league.' "We don't do summer rugby." Yet when there is even a rumour of an American summer rugby league, some BCers are the first ones to say "we want in." I just chalk it up to a reflection of the contemporary Canadian psyche. Anyway, nothing is going to change and enough to all of that. I guess we have a game on Saturday.

Who are we playing this weekend?

Good read about the Pride Program.

I think the Pride program is exactly what is needed.
We have carded players now in Victoria that never / very rarely play 15's.

Here is a link. Great read.

http://www.bcrugbynews.com/show_news.cfm?ID=2318

moosehead wrote:Good read about the Pride Program.

I think the Pride program is exactly what is needed.
We have carded players now in Victoria that never / very rarely play 15's.

Here is a link. Great read.

http://www.bcrugbynews.com/show_news.cfm?ID=2318

Leading into the 2003 Rugby World Cup, Clark recalled Ross and Lougheed. Two players who had retired a few years earlier. Both guys went straight onto the national team and into the starting XVs. Their recall was an indication that Clark and the Pacific Pride could not develop the players necessary for Canada. The players who made Canada in the five years after the PP were of a higher standard, without the 'benefit' of the program.

The interesting point of the interview is in the latter bit. MacMillan said a stand-alone program will not work. It did not work then and it will not work now.

canuckles wrote:

moosehead wrote:Good read about the Pride Program.

I think the Pride program is exactly what is needed.
We have carded players now in Victoria that never / very rarely play 15's.

Here is a link. Great read.

http://www.bcrugbynews.com/show_news.cfm?ID=2318

Leading into the 2003 Rugby World Cup, Clark recalled Ross and Lougheed. Two players who had retired a few years earlier. Both guys went straight onto the national team and into the starting XVs. Their recall was an indication that Clark and the Pacific Pride could not develop the players necessary for Canada. The players who made Canada in the five years after the PP were of a higher standard, without the 'benefit' of the program.

The interesting point of the interview is in the latter bit. MacMillan said a stand-alone program will not work. It did not work then and it will not work now.

I lost faith in Clark when he started Ross in that WC. That was a strange trip/team as I recall. Lots of rumours.

Where is MacMillan now?

Last I knew, he was involved behind the scenes at Westshore but not regularly or directly involved with their teams. Day job with Pacific Sport.

BC Rugby News has a tribute to recently deceased respected figure Don Burgess and re-posted an article he wrote in 2006 that highlights nothing has changed since he issued this warning:

It is sad to admit, but the game and the style of Rugby played by most clubs here in B.C/Canada, is simply a very depressing game to watch with its endless series of bash, crash, hit it up after hit up that emulates the style of Rugby League. It appears that players are following a “black board” game plan devised by their coaches that emphasizes brawn rather than brain and appears to provide little opportunity for players to use individual flair or wizardry to evade defenders.

Similarly, the skill of “reading the game” is hardly mentioned by coaches to their players, particularly ( #9, #10, #12,#15 ). This term is almost unheard of by our current crop of inside backs let alone the forwards. The concept of “Read and React” takes second place to a much overdone series of pre-conceived plays that are predictable, repetitive, and seldom work. Moreover, we are still wallowing in tactics that other countries have already abandoned and it is high time that we put more thought into our game and get caught up.

I find it funny that Ratier commented 'Brilliant!' because his women were entirely predictable last year. One of the Ferns players said so during a halftime interview in their June warm-up game.

Another Alberta boy, Cole Davis, makes it to the NSMT. He should be able to handle the physical side of things.

DTH still in the squad. His pro career has dipped since leaving Glasgow.

Davis in for the Try. Go you Alberta boy.

14-0 Canada at the 14 minute mark.

Flames back on home ice; see if they can win in their own barn.

DSD in for the try after solid work from the forwards continually breaking the line. 21-0.

DTH in for the try from a five metre lineout. 26-0 at the break.

Canada's forwards doing a solid job. Good half by Baillie and the scrum. Rumball continues to play well. I just about gave up on him, but he has been our best player the past few weeks.

Heading over to HNIC.

Flames down 1-0.

Back to rugby. Brazil hearts not into the game. Their tackling is MIA.

O'Leary's kicking boots are off.

Red card to a Brazilian lock for a nasty clean-out.

Backline play still not sharp. This win is to the forwards.

Headbutt on Barkwill. Ray has done his job. Get him off and put on the replacement.

New boy Fraser with the try, from a nice break by Mack.

du Toit with the try from a series of pick-and-gos.

Brazil with a try at the last whistle.

Canada 45 Brazil 5.

A win against a tier three team and a bit of confidence for Canada.

Giving up the late try to me is the biggest disappointment, Brazil were awful today.

Weird framing of these highlights. It's like when someone alters a copyrighted video so it doesn't get flagged.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96xz_twvGtA


Not just a win, but good to get quite a few tries. Who's next for them? Likely to build some momentum off this? (Brazil's defence was very weak, but at least the Canucks did well to spot and exploit the opportunities.)

Nieghorn wrote:Weird framing of these highlights. It's like when someone alters a copyrighted video so it doesn't get flagged.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96xz_twvGtA


Not just a win, but good to get quite a few tries. Who's next for them? Likely to build some momentum off this? (Brazil's defence was very weak, but at least the Canucks did well to spot and exploit the opportunities.)

Our guys just needed a win: Brazil, Lower Slobbovia, against anybody. Brazil showed no interest in the match. Our tight five and Rumball did well. I think we have Argentina B, C, or D down there. I cannot see us with enough speed around the park to beat them. One cannot read much in last night's game. Rugby Canada is so lame they are probably pushing the win as some sort of turnaround: Repechage here we come!

With Spain's win, and with just two easy games left for them to qualify as Europe 1, it could very well be Romania / Portugal vs Samoa. Assuming Romania and then Samoa win, the Romanians might be a bigger challenge for Canada than Spain with their massive forwards.