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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:29 pm 
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sorCrer wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
pontifex wrote:
I think there's something to my brainfart the other day about the democratization of speculation afforded by crypto. Why shouldn't the plebs also be able to play liar's poker (albeit on steroids) if they understand the risks? It was genuinely bizarre to sit for a few days watching my 'wealth' accumulate without any intervention by me, and I realised that that's essentially what the superrich do (obviously with the difference that their starting investments are much larger, and the incremental gains proportionally lower).


It's actually one of the most amazing things for me that crypto has done. It's brought technical analysis of markets into the more general public. I have people who I would never have thought wanting to discuss candles, volume, Bollinger Band squeezes, RSI, MACD and Ichimoku Clouds and showing a genuine interest in these and other trading strategies and signals.


That happens in every bubble you eejit. It's the signs of one.


These skills if learnt and understood are those applied in classical markets. Maybe after the 'crash' we'll end up with a generation of stock brokers.



There isn't a current generation of stockbrokers really.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:31 pm 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
pontifex wrote:
I think there's something to my brainfart the other day about the democratization of speculation afforded by crypto. Why shouldn't the plebs also be able to play liar's poker (albeit on steroids) if they understand the risks? It was genuinely bizarre to sit for a few days watching my 'wealth' accumulate without any intervention by me, and I realised that that's essentially what the superrich do (obviously with the difference that their starting investments are much larger, and the incremental gains proportionally lower).


Plebs have always been able to do that though. From the sides of wharfs and grain markets in Roman times to the day traders of the 90s, through the bucket shops and penny stocks, and the B-Market listings and forex speculation that has always gone on. It's just very very risky, and most (nearly all) blow up.

Have you read the classic trading books by Jack Schwager? Definitely worth more than a look. One of the key takeaways from that is the importance of rules and coaches. I recall a BBC show from about 15 years back on hedge funds, and an interview with Michael Hintz. He said "do not do this without adult supervision."

Even then, Neiderhoffer blew up. And many do.


Hintz..... Bloody stole every good idea he had.


Aussies. Can't trust em.



I'll tell you over a beer, but no you can't. God I wish I'd kept the account though.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:34 pm 
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Rumham wrote:

You make an application to open an account, they accept it. Then you are on your own. Why are you so hung up on KYC and speed of getting money in and out?

They even have bitcoin futures on there now..,

So the middle men are gambling on crypto too. Why should this practice not be democratized? I accept that they have hedges, of course, but I don't think the entire crypto space is all hot air, and I'd be the first to say that the crypto market will only properly mature once the bitcoin bubble, which is entirely unsustainable in every possible way, bursts. But to suggest that the whole market will deflate permanently is silly. It's perfectly possible that the Amazon, Google and Facebook equivalents have yet to appear, and thus that it would not be possible at this point to bet on a future winner, but the market itself will survive, and grow. There is too much potential use value (as yet speculative, I concur) for that not to be the case.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:35 pm 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
pontifex wrote:
I think there's something to my brainfart the other day about the democratization of speculation afforded by crypto. Why shouldn't the plebs also be able to play liar's poker (albeit on steroids) if they understand the risks? It was genuinely bizarre to sit for a few days watching my 'wealth' accumulate without any intervention by me, and I realised that that's essentially what the superrich do (obviously with the difference that their starting investments are much larger, and the incremental gains proportionally lower).


It's actually one of the most amazing things for me that crypto has done. It's brought technical analysis of markets into the more general public. I have people who I would never have thought wanting to discuss candles, volume, Bollinger Band squeezes, RSI, MACD and Ichimoku Clouds and showing a genuine interest in these and other trading strategies and signals.


That happens in every bubble you eejit. It's the signs of one.


These skills if learnt and understood are those applied in classical markets. Maybe after the 'crash' we'll end up with a generation of stock brokers.


The Icelandics went back to their fishing boats.

And I'm going back to the land!


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:37 pm 
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Honestly, I've been looking for a way to get some form of capital for a long time, since I recognise that the value of my labour is going to decrease dramatically in the future. This was a way for me to do that.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm 
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Rumham wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
Rumham wrote:
pontifex wrote:
bimboman wrote:


It's what everyone with a pension does. It isn't the preserve of the super rich at all.

Well, it's what everyone with a pension trusts someone else to do on their behalves... I'd rather do it myself. Thus democratization of speculation.


Really? You can open an IB account in 10 minutes and have it. I'm not sure what the point of this liberation is.


Well, you'd have to do KYC but you could. Except from my experience getting money in and out of it isn't that quick?


You make an application to open an account, they accept it. Then you are on your own. Why are you so hung up on KYC and speed of getting money in and out?

They even have bitcoin futures on there now..,


KYC I see as a critical part of AML and don't have an issue with although it can slow down the verification process especially cross border. I'm going through this now with Etoro. Speed of getting money out is critical. A couple of hours (or longer over weekends) is fine. 2-3 days? No thanks.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:39 pm 
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pontifex wrote:
Honestly, I've been looking for a way to get some form of capital for a long time, since I recognise that the value of my labour is going to decrease dramatically in the future. This was a way for me to do that.


If something is too good to be true . . .


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:40 pm 
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Can you tell me a bit more about Etoro, please?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:40 pm 
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pontifex wrote:
It's perfectly possible that the Amazon, Google and Facebook


A few hours ago:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/05/mark-zu ... rency.html


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:41 pm 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
pontifex wrote:
Honestly, I've been looking for a way to get some form of capital for a long time, since I recognise that the value of my labour is going to decrease dramatically in the future. This was a way for me to do that.


If something is too good to be true . . .

Yes, I've thought long and hard about that. But I've extracted my initial investment, and you can see my arguments about the relationship between me and the bubble above. In principle, there's nothing wrong with the democratization of speculation, or at least I see no reason why I should not be able to speculate on financial assets just like the supposed grown ups. As I said, I make no bones about my belief that I'm as smart or smarter than the average trader (and as I've said, that hubris could bite me on the bum)


Last edited by pontifex on Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:42 pm 
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pontifex wrote:
Rumham wrote:

You make an application to open an account, they accept it. Then you are on your own. Why are you so hung up on KYC and speed of getting money in and out?

They even have bitcoin futures on there now..,

So the middle men are gambling on crypto too. Why should this practice not be democratized? I accept that they have hedges, of course, but I don't think the entire crypto space is all hot air, and I'd be the first to say that the crypto market will only properly mature once the bitcoin bubble, which is entirely unsustainable in every possible way, bursts. But to suggest that the whole market will deflate permanently is silly. It's perfectly possible that the Amazon, Google and Facebook equivalents have yet to appear, and thus that it would not be possible at this point to bet on a future winner, but the market itself will survive, and grow. There is too much potential use value (as yet speculative, I concur) for that not to be the case.


IB is a middle man in the sense that it allows you to trade anything you wish for a small commission. They are not speculating on anything, just offering the chance to lose your bollocks on a wide variety of offerings if that's the way you would like to spend your money.

This liberating experience of being able to trade you hard earned cash without having to go through Bimbo is not a new phenomenon. You don't need to being speculating on cryptocurrencies to be your own man. I'm sure the tech behind this will be very useful down the line but crypto currencies are not the future of financial transactions.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:43 pm 
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pontifex wrote:
Can you tell me a bit more about Etoro, please?


Online retail broker / social investment platform allowing you to take positions on practically any stock (Google, Apple), commodity (Oil, Palladium), cryptos etc. You can follow other successful traders and interact with traders around the world.
,


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:44 pm 
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pontifex wrote:
Rumham wrote:

You make an application to open an account, they accept it. Then you are on your own. Why are you so hung up on KYC and speed of getting money in and out?

They even have bitcoin futures on there now..,

So the middle men are gambling on crypto too. Why should this practice not be democratized? I accept that they have hedges, of course, but I don't think the entire crypto space is all hot air, and I'd be the first to say that the crypto market will only properly mature once the bitcoin bubble, which is entirely unsustainable in every possible way, bursts. But to suggest that the whole market will deflate permanently is silly. It's perfectly possible that the Amazon, Google and Facebook equivalents have yet to appear, and thus that it would not be possible at this point to bet on a future winner, but the market itself will survive, and grow. There is too much potential use value (as yet speculative, I concur) for that not to be the case.



Anyone can act on almost any exchange globally, and get leverage that even 20'years ago bankers would,have struggled to get. You can buy Google stock, bitcoins and futures in Japanese yen.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:46 pm 
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Rumham wrote:
pontifex wrote:
Rumham wrote:

You make an application to open an account, they accept it. Then you are on your own. Why are you so hung up on KYC and speed of getting money in and out?

They even have bitcoin futures on there now..,

So the middle men are gambling on crypto too. Why should this practice not be democratized? I accept that they have hedges, of course, but I don't think the entire crypto space is all hot air, and I'd be the first to say that the crypto market will only properly mature once the bitcoin bubble, which is entirely unsustainable in every possible way, bursts. But to suggest that the whole market will deflate permanently is silly. It's perfectly possible that the Amazon, Google and Facebook equivalents have yet to appear, and thus that it would not be possible at this point to bet on a future winner, but the market itself will survive, and grow. There is too much potential use value (as yet speculative, I concur) for that not to be the case.


IB is a middle man in the sense that it allows you to trade anything you wish for a small commission. They are not speculating on anything, just offering the chance to lose your bollocks on a wide variety of offerings if that's the way you would like to spend your money.

This liberating experience of being able to trade you hard earned cash without having to go through Bimbo is not a new phenomenon. You don't need to being speculating on cryptocurrencies to be your own man. I'm sure the tech behind this will be very useful down the line but crypto currencies are not the future of financial transactions.

Sure, I know that it may have been possible for me to do this in the past. That said, it's clear that the crypto market is a progression on the availability of capital markets to the layperson of past decades.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:46 pm 
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sorCrer wrote:
pontifex wrote:
It's perfectly possible that the Amazon, Google and Facebook


A few hours ago:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/05/mark-zu ... rency.html



Well that's Bitcoin back to a dollar then.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:47 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
pontifex wrote:
Rumham wrote:

You make an application to open an account, they accept it. Then you are on your own. Why are you so hung up on KYC and speed of getting money in and out?

They even have bitcoin futures on there now..,

So the middle men are gambling on crypto too. Why should this practice not be democratized? I accept that they have hedges, of course, but I don't think the entire crypto space is all hot air, and I'd be the first to say that the crypto market will only properly mature once the bitcoin bubble, which is entirely unsustainable in every possible way, bursts. But to suggest that the whole market will deflate permanently is silly. It's perfectly possible that the Amazon, Google and Facebook equivalents have yet to appear, and thus that it would not be possible at this point to bet on a future winner, but the market itself will survive, and grow. There is too much potential use value (as yet speculative, I concur) for that not to be the case.



Anyone can act on almost any exchange globally, and get leverage that even 20'years ago bankers would,have struggled to get. You can buy Google stock, bitcoins and futures in Japanese yen.

Great. I hold my 'assets' - and those scarequotes are not only ironic - on my own little encrypted stick.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:48 pm 
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sorCrer wrote:
pontifex wrote:
Can you tell me a bit more about Etoro, please?


Online retail broker / social investment platform allowing you to take positions on practically any stock (Google, Apple), commodity (Oil, Palladium), cryptos etc. You can follow other successful traders and interact with traders around the world.
,

Thanks.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:49 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
pontifex wrote:
It's perfectly possible that the Amazon, Google and Facebook


A few hours ago:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/05/mark-zu ... rency.html



Well that's Bitcoin back to a dollar then.


He'll use an existing decentralised currency not create one. But it obviously wouldn't be BTC unless they sort out lightning network.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:51 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
pontifex wrote:
It's perfectly possible that the Amazon, Google and Facebook


A few hours ago:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/05/mark-zu ... rency.html



Well that's Bitcoin back to a dollar then.


Read all the stories under the Facebook headline. Every single major investor says it is a scam.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:54 pm 
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Rumham wrote:
bimboman wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
pontifex wrote:
It's perfectly possible that the Amazon, Google and Facebook


A few hours ago:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/05/mark-zu ... rency.html



Well that's Bitcoin back to a dollar then.


Read all the stories under the Facebook headline. Every single major investor says it is a scam.

Well they would, wouldn't they. The democratization of speculation must terrify them. And that alone is a reason to support crypto.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:00 pm 
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pontifex wrote:
Rumham wrote:
pontifex wrote:
Rumham wrote:

You make an application to open an account, they accept it. Then you are on your own. Why are you so hung up on KYC and speed of getting money in and out?

They even have bitcoin futures on there now..,

So the middle men are gambling on crypto too. Why should this practice not be democratized? I accept that they have hedges, of course, but I don't think the entire crypto space is all hot air, and I'd be the first to say that the crypto market will only properly mature once the bitcoin bubble, which is entirely unsustainable in every possible way, bursts. But to suggest that the whole market will deflate permanently is silly. It's perfectly possible that the Amazon, Google and Facebook equivalents have yet to appear, and thus that it would not be possible at this point to bet on a future winner, but the market itself will survive, and grow. There is too much potential use value (as yet speculative, I concur) for that not to be the case.


IB is a middle man in the sense that it allows you to trade anything you wish for a small commission. They are not speculating on anything, just offering the chance to lose your bollocks on a wide variety of offerings if that's the way you would like to spend your money.

This liberating experience of being able to trade you hard earned cash without having to go through Bimbo is not a new phenomenon. You don't need to being speculating on cryptocurrencies to be your own man. I'm sure the tech behind this will be very useful down the line but crypto currencies are not the future of financial transactions.

Sure, I know that it may have been possible for me to do this in the past. That said, it's clear that the crypto market is a progression on the availability of capital markets to the layperson of past decades.



Rubbish, it's easier to buy a NY coffee position than a bit coin.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:03 pm 
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pontifex wrote:
bimboman wrote:
pontifex wrote:
Rumham wrote:

You make an application to open an account, they accept it. Then you are on your own. Why are you so hung up on KYC and speed of getting money in and out?

They even have bitcoin futures on there now..,

So the middle men are gambling on crypto too. Why should this practice not be democratized? I accept that they have hedges, of course, but I don't think the entire crypto space is all hot air, and I'd be the first to say that the crypto market will only properly mature once the bitcoin bubble, which is entirely unsustainable in every possible way, bursts. But to suggest that the whole market will deflate permanently is silly. It's perfectly possible that the Amazon, Google and Facebook equivalents have yet to appear, and thus that it would not be possible at this point to bet on a future winner, but the market itself will survive, and grow. There is too much potential use value (as yet speculative, I concur) for that not to be the case.



Anyone can act on almost any exchange globally, and get leverage that even 20'years ago bankers would,have struggled to get. You can buy Google stock, bitcoins and futures in Japanese yen.

Great. I hold my 'assets' - and those scarequotes are not only ironic - on my own little encrypted stick.



Great. I'd much rather trust a crypto exchange than a regulated "to big to fail" bank or futures exchange.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:03 pm 
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sorCrer wrote:
pontifex wrote:
Can you tell me a bit more about Etoro, please?


Online retail broker / social investment platform allowing you to take positions on practically any stock (Google, Apple), commodity (Oil, Palladium), cryptos etc. You can follow other successful traders and interact with traders around the world.
,


Only a few (I think 4 or 5) Cryptocurrencies are available on eToro though.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:04 pm 
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bimboman wrote:


Rubbish, it's easier to buy a NY coffee position than a bit coin.

I didn't find it difficult to buy my first 0.2 BTC. I admit that the potential returns of BTC (and then the others I eventually transferred that into) meant that I didn't look hard into how to open a classical share portfolio. It seemed arcane to me in a way that crypto speculation did not. But I obviously also find myself attracted to the political projects of various cryptos.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:05 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
pontifex wrote:
bimboman wrote:
pontifex wrote:
Rumham wrote:

You make an application to open an account, they accept it. Then you are on your own. Why are you so hung up on KYC and speed of getting money in and out?

They even have bitcoin futures on there now..,

So the middle men are gambling on crypto too. Why should this practice not be democratized? I accept that they have hedges, of course, but I don't think the entire crypto space is all hot air, and I'd be the first to say that the crypto market will only properly mature once the bitcoin bubble, which is entirely unsustainable in every possible way, bursts. But to suggest that the whole market will deflate permanently is silly. It's perfectly possible that the Amazon, Google and Facebook equivalents have yet to appear, and thus that it would not be possible at this point to bet on a future winner, but the market itself will survive, and grow. There is too much potential use value (as yet speculative, I concur) for that not to be the case.



Anyone can act on almost any exchange globally, and get leverage that even 20'years ago bankers would,have struggled to get. You can buy Google stock, bitcoins and futures in Japanese yen.

Great. I hold my 'assets' - and those scarequotes are not only ironic - on my own little encrypted stick.



Great. I'd much rather trust a crypto exchange than a regulated "to big to fail" bank or futures exchange.

I don't have my tokens on any exchange. Do you know how the technology works?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:06 pm 
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pontifex wrote:
Rumham wrote:
bimboman wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
pontifex wrote:
It's perfectly possible that the Amazon, Google and Facebook


A few hours ago:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/05/mark-zu ... rency.html



Well that's Bitcoin back to a dollar then.


Read all the stories under the Facebook headline. Every single major investor says it is a scam.

Well they would, wouldn't they. The democratization of speculation must terrify them. And that alone is a reason to support crypto.


You have completely lost me here. Good luck with your investment but I'm not sure wtf you are getting at.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:07 pm 
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Quote:
Well they would, wouldn't they. The democratization of speculation must terrify them. And that alone is a reason to support cryp



You do know that some of the larger players are hedge funds ... And banks are toying with trading them at the moment. I'll point out again, speculation is already democratised anyone can trade anything,


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:08 pm 
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Rumham wrote:
pontifex wrote:
Rumham wrote:

Read all the stories under the Facebook headline. Every single major investor says it is a scam.

Well they would, wouldn't they. The democratization of speculation must terrify them. And that alone is a reason to support crypto.


You have completely lost me here. Good luck with your investment but I'm not sure wtf you are getting at.

Cheers for the wishes. I'm getting at the idea of disrupting the financial system, as an end in itself, or an end in service of a political aim.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:10 pm 
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Quote:
I don't have my tokens on any exchange. Do you know how the technology works?




Roughly ,Mobutu not enough to know where your tokens are. If they're on your hard drive then good for,you ,


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:11 pm 
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pontifex wrote:
Rumham wrote:
pontifex wrote:
Rumham wrote:

Read all the stories under the Facebook headline. Every single major investor says it is a scam.

Well they would, wouldn't they. The democratization of speculation must terrify them. And that alone is a reason to support crypto.


You have completely lost me here. Good luck with your investment but I'm not sure wtf you are getting at.

Cheers for the wishes. I'm getting at the idea of disrupting the financial system, as an end in itself, or an end in service of a political aim.



How will the financial system be disrupted. ?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:12 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
Quote:
Well they would, wouldn't they. The democratization of speculation must terrify them. And that alone is a reason to support cryp



You do know that some of the larger players are hedge funds

Of course I do, and in light of that, I find it galling that they want to inhibit my ability to speculate as an individual.
bimboman wrote:
I'll point out again, speculation is already democratised anyone can trade anything,

Yes, I'm not disputing that. I think it's also pretty clear that there is a difference in the crypto market. Perhaps it's pure democratic speculation, only that, nothing else (I don't believe that, by the way, but it would follow from what you're saying).


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:15 pm 
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pontifex wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Quote:
Well they would, wouldn't they. The democratization of speculation must terrify them. And that alone is a reason to support cryp



You do know that some of the larger players are hedge funds

Of course I do, and in light of that, I find it galling that they want to inhibit my ability to speculate as an individual.
bimboman wrote:
I'll point out again, speculation is already democratised anyone can trade anything,

Yes, I'm not disputing that. I think it's also pretty clear that there is a difference in the crypto market. Perhaps it's pure democratic speculation, only that, nothing else (I don't believe that, by the way, but it would follow from what you're saying).



I'm not sure what the difference is, other than the asset value is 100% faith in the future use of the currency.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:18 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
pontifex wrote:
Rumham wrote:
pontifex wrote:
Rumham wrote:

Read all the stories under the Facebook headline. Every single major investor says it is a scam.

Well they would, wouldn't they. The democratization of speculation must terrify them. And that alone is a reason to support crypto.


You have completely lost me here. Good luck with your investment but I'm not sure wtf you are getting at.

Cheers for the wishes. I'm getting at the idea of disrupting the financial system, as an end in itself, or an end in service of a political aim.



How will the financial system be disrupted. ?

People will exchange freely in decentralized assets which cannot be monetarily devalued (i.e. by arbitrary, non-algorithmic QE). I'm not suggesting for a moment that the value of an individual token cannot me manipulated by actors who hold many, and that the existing institutions will not attempt to do so, but I hope crypto gets too big to control. I admit that there is no guarantee that centralization will not happen de facto, but I hope that democratic uptake of these technologies will offer some resistance to centralization.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:19 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
pontifex wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Quote:
Well they would, wouldn't they. The democratization of speculation must terrify them. And that alone is a reason to support cryp



You do know that some of the larger players are hedge funds

Of course I do, and in light of that, I find it galling that they want to inhibit my ability to speculate as an individual.
bimboman wrote:
I'll point out again, speculation is already democratised anyone can trade anything,

Yes, I'm not disputing that. I think it's also pretty clear that there is a difference in the crypto market. Perhaps it's pure democratic speculation, only that, nothing else (I don't believe that, by the way, but it would follow from what you're saying).



I'm not sure what the difference is, other than the asset value is 100% faith in the future use of the currency.

Well, that's not true. Most 3rd generation blockchains are not currencies. That's why I wrote that I don't believe it is pure speculation. But given your model of what cryptos are, it makes sense that you would think that.


Last edited by pontifex on Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:20 pm 
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Sorcerer I spent 2 years regulating listings on the London Stock Exchange specialising in funds and equities. Part of my job was ensuring that listing prospectuses contained all the required information. I know the effort that goes in to producing these things, the standardised information and format, the due diligence, the minimum quality required, the expertise, the weaknesses, the lot.

I know the level of information required to maintain such a listing and the rules around how it is produced and shared.

Most people trading in cryptos are doing so based on zero information. Zero. And that's generous. The ones that aren't are the ones that are manipulating the market.


Last edited by Santa on Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:21 pm 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
goeagles wrote:
Bowens wrote:
Do you ask your wife the crypo expert before you write these posts?


SorCrer has been pretty on the money in this thread, and other Bitcoin threads before this one, even if I strongly disagree with him on Ripple's long term outlook.


What you mean is that he is reading the market well, but the market is not a closed universe.


What I mean is that I value someone's opinions on the topic who has been fairly consistently right about the market over naysayers who just constantly scream bubble or attempt to mock that person.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:23 pm 
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Quote:
exchange freely in decentralized assets which cannot be monetarily devalued (i.e. by arbitrary, non-algorithmic QE). I'm not suggesting for a moment that the value of an individual token cannot me manipulated by actors who hold many, and that the existing institutions will not attempt to do so, but I hope crypto gets too big to control. I admit that there is no guarantee that centralization will not happen de facto, but I hope that democratic uptake of these technologies will offer some resistance to centralization




De centralised means nothing if people can't actually spend the results, the US could arbitrarily deflate the USD and right now and lower bitcoins actual value.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:25 pm 
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Santa wrote:

Most people trading in cryptos are doing so based on zero information. Zero. And that's generous.

That may be true, although I wouldn't be quite as dismissive.
Santa wrote:
The ones that aren't are the ones that are manipulating the market.

I don't think that is. And I think the currency conservatives here are missing the political aspect, which I think will prove far more robust than many expect, in the current environment.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:27 pm 
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The whole crypto discussion is getting boring for me. Good for the people who make money during this bubble, but overall it’s boring.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:28 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
Quote:
exchange freely in decentralized assets which cannot be monetarily devalued (i.e. by arbitrary, non-algorithmic QE). I'm not suggesting for a moment that the value of an individual token cannot me manipulated by actors who hold many, and that the existing institutions will not attempt to do so, but I hope crypto gets too big to control. I admit that there is no guarantee that centralization will not happen de facto, but I hope that democratic uptake of these technologies will offer some resistance to centralization




De centralised means nothing if people can't actually spend the results, the US could arbitrarily deflate the USD and right now and lower bitcoins actual value.

Yes, the conversion to fiat remains a problem, as long as you can't actually buy real goods with crypto. That may, or may not change, depending on state interventions. I suspect it will become more difficult too convert into fiat at some point, but that doesn't mean people will not ignore that and use it as a means of exchange. After all, that's how bitcoin got to $1k.


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