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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:18 pm
by Zakar
Rumham wrote:
RoseGarden wrote:Coinbase won't be adding anything until they have more capacity/staff they can't handle incoming and outgoing wires and even BTCtransfers are taking hours to go on to the block chain while they get BTCs out of cold storage.

Binance and Bittrex also struggling and have closed signups for now. Everyone still trying to get in on the goldrush.
Except gold will last the test of time. This...
Until asteroid mining is feasible.

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:22 pm
by TranceNRG
Have invested about 1000 pounds in bitcoins, ethereum and Ripple recently. Hopefully it won't go south.

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:45 pm
by sorCrer
Rumham wrote:
RoseGarden wrote:Coinbase won't be adding anything until they have more capacity/staff they can't handle incoming and outgoing wires and even BTCtransfers are taking hours to go on to the block chain while they get BTCs out of cold storage.

Binance and Bittrex also struggling and have closed signups for now. Everyone still trying to get in on the goldrush.
Except gold will last the test of time. This...
Actually in theory, this should to...that's the whole point of the blockchain.

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:55 pm
by Rumham
sorCrer wrote:
Rumham wrote:
RoseGarden wrote:Coinbase won't be adding anything until they have more capacity/staff they can't handle incoming and outgoing wires and even BTCtransfers are taking hours to go on to the block chain while they get BTCs out of cold storage.

Binance and Bittrex also struggling and have closed signups for now. Everyone still trying to get in on the goldrush.
Except gold will last the test of time. This...
Actually in theory, this should to...that's the whole point of the blockchain.
Block chain is not the issue here. It is the ever expanding web of imaginary currecncies floating about purporting to be viable alternatives to the existing the monetary system. It is complete hogwash.

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:39 pm
by Wilson's Toffee
Seneca of the Night wrote:
Zakar wrote:
bimboman wrote:A "sell wall" eh?

Sorry that's just silly terminology.
I'm sure you think you come across like Hugh Bonneville in Downtown Abbey, but you actually come across like Hugh Bonneville in Notting Hill.
:lol: That is a good quip. But equally he could be Hal Holbrook in Wall Street.

Doesn't the very existence and use of a term like 'sell wall' just mean there is vast market manipulation going on and that in the short term people are being stiffed all over the place, and in the long term, people will be fleeced completely and end up living in barrels?

It does.

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:41 pm
by bimboman
Zakar wrote:
bimboman wrote:A "sell wall" eh?

Sorry that's just silly terminology.
I'm sure you think you come across like Hugh Bonneville in Downtown Abbey, but you actually come across like Hugh Bonneville in Notting Hill.
Oh, I was an average broker even at my best, agreed. Even so, I've certainly never mistaken my Romford twang for downtown abbey even when delivering news of the "sell wall" or bazingo bidding.

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:26 pm
by pontifex
The comparison of Bitcoin with gold is surely a stupid joke. Are the people that make that comparison serious? I'm obviously an afficionado of crypto in general, and see it as an important political as well as technical project, but that comparison is utterly ridiculous.

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:40 pm
by sorCrer
Seneca of the Night wrote:
Zakar wrote:
bimboman wrote:A "sell wall" eh?

Sorry that's just silly terminology.
I'm sure you think you come across like Hugh Bonneville in Downtown Abbey, but you actually come across like Hugh Bonneville in Notting Hill.
:lol: That is a good quip. But equally he could be Hal Holbrook in Wall Street.

Doesn't the very existence and use of a term like 'sell wall' just mean there is vast market manipulation going on and that in the short term people are being stiffed all over the place, and in the long term, people will be fleeced completely and end up living in barrels?
Nope.

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:45 pm
by sorCrer
Rumham wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
Rumham wrote:
RoseGarden wrote:Coinbase won't be adding anything until they have more capacity/staff they can't handle incoming and outgoing wires and even BTCtransfers are taking hours to go on to the block chain while they get BTCs out of cold storage.

Binance and Bittrex also struggling and have closed signups for now. Everyone still trying to get in on the goldrush.
Except gold will last the test of time. This...
Actually in theory, this should to...that's the whole point of the blockchain.
Block chain is not the issue here. It is the ever expanding web of imaginary currecncies floating about purporting to be viable alternatives to the existing the monetary system. It is complete hogwash.
Point I was making that with the blockchain being decentralised it in theory will last forever and so will your cryptokitty.

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:48 pm
by Bowens
Do you ask your wife the crypo expert before you write these posts?

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:52 pm
by bimboman
sorCrer wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
Zakar wrote:
bimboman wrote:A "sell wall" eh?

Sorry that's just silly terminology.
I'm sure you think you come across like Hugh Bonneville in Downtown Abbey, but you actually come across like Hugh Bonneville in Notting Hill.
:lol: That is a good quip. But equally he could be Hal Holbrook in Wall Street.

Doesn't the very existence and use of a term like 'sell wall' just mean there is vast market manipulation going on and that in the short term people are being stiffed all over the place, and in the long term, people will be fleeced completely and end up living in barrels?
Nope.

I thought you were a smart investor, the market is rigged.

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:58 pm
by goeagles
Bowens wrote:Do you ask your wife the crypo expert before you write these posts?
SorCrer has been pretty on the money in this thread, and other Bitcoin threads before this one, even if I strongly disagree with him on Ripple's long term outlook.

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:00 pm
by Zakar
bimboman wrote:
Zakar wrote:
bimboman wrote:A "sell wall" eh?

Sorry that's just silly terminology.
I'm sure you think you come across like Hugh Bonneville in Downtown Abbey, but you actually come across like Hugh Bonneville in Notting Hill.
Oh, I was an average broker even at my best, agreed. Even so, I've certainly never mistaken my Romford twang for downtown abbey even when delivering news of the "sell wall" or bazingo bidding.
Was just a joke, and fwiw, I agree that plenty of crypto jagon is stupid. TBF though most jagon is, and either results in, or is designed to be exclusionary. Finance and tech are both huge fiends for it, and the crypto currencies tend to use the worst from both camps.

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:00 pm
by bimboman
goeagles wrote:
Bowens wrote:Do you ask your wife the crypo expert before you write these posts?
SorCrer has been pretty on the money in this thread, and other Bitcoin threads before this one, even if I strongly disagree with him on Ripple's long term outlook.

And he's a a billionaire ....

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:02 pm
by Bowens
Poor TranceNRG probably followed this guy's advice when he wiped his ass with 1000 of his hard-earned dough on play tokens.

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:03 pm
by bimboman
Zakar wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Zakar wrote:
bimboman wrote:A "sell wall" eh?

Sorry that's just silly terminology.
I'm sure you think you come across like Hugh Bonneville in Downtown Abbey, but you actually come across like Hugh Bonneville in Notting Hill.
Oh, I was an average broker even at my best, agreed. Even so, I've certainly never mistaken my Romford twang for downtown abbey even when delivering news of the "sell wall" or bazingo bidding.
Was just a joke, and fwiw, I agree that plenty of crypto jagon is stupid. TBF though most jagon is, and either results in, or is designed to be exclusionary. Finance and tech are both huge fiends for it, and the crypto currencies tend to use the worst from both camps.

I thought about the jargon used and of course realised my old community had plenty of terms sometimes to keep outsiders out.

I particularly enjoy reading about "atomic swaps" ....

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:05 pm
by Zakar
bimboman wrote:
Zakar wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Zakar wrote:
bimboman wrote:A "sell wall" eh?

Sorry that's just silly terminology.
I'm sure you think you come across like Hugh Bonneville in Downtown Abbey, but you actually come across like Hugh Bonneville in Notting Hill.
Oh, I was an average broker even at my best, agreed. Even so, I've certainly never mistaken my Romford twang for downtown abbey even when delivering news of the "sell wall" or bazingo bidding.
Was just a joke, and fwiw, I agree that plenty of crypto jagon is stupid. TBF though most jagon is, and either results in, or is designed to be exclusionary. Finance and tech are both huge fiends for it, and the crypto currencies tend to use the worst from both camps.

I thought about the jargon used and of course realised my old community had plenty of terms sometimes to keep outsiders out.

I particularly enjoy reading about "atomic swaps" ....
I wonder if these atomic swaps will have knock in caps or floors? :lol:

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:11 pm
by sorCrer
Bowens wrote:Do you ask your wife the crypo expert before you write these posts?
I don't have a wife? That said, I've been trading cryptocurrencies for more than 4 years.

<globusmode>In May 2014, the front page of our largest national newspaper (Sunday Times) business section i.e. the big story was an article about me and BTC trading</globusmode>

The point is that cryptocurrencies are already here and not going anywhere and sooner or later yourself (Bimbo, SON, etc) will be asking for the price of an item in sats :lol:

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:14 pm
by sorCrer
bimboman wrote:
goeagles wrote:
Bowens wrote:Do you ask your wife the crypo expert before you write these posts?
SorCrer has been pretty on the money in this thread, and other Bitcoin threads before this one, even if I strongly disagree with him on Ripple's long term outlook.

And he's a a billionaire ....
Hey Bimb's no need to be flippant :)

Do you know the High Life Shop magazine?

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:15 pm
by bimboman
sorCrer wrote:
Bowens wrote:Do you ask your wife the crypo expert before you write these posts?
I don't have a wife? That said, I've been trading cryptocurrencies for more than 4 years.

<globusmode>In May 2014, the front page of our largest national newspaper (Sunday Times) business section i.e. the big story was an article about me and BTC trading</globusmode>

The point is that cryptocurrencies are already here and not going anywhere and sooner or later yourself (Bimbo, SON, etc) will be asking for the price of an item in sats :lol:

I'm not denying that block chain application will spread, nor that they'll eventually be accepted methods of electronic exchange with things looking like currencies.

The point about currencies (plural) and new ones popping up, and the current in suitability for use in the real world, plus that they're manipulated and going to cause huge losses is also not something I doubt.

Your Gold comparison was enjoyable though.

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:15 pm
by Bowens
Sorry to hear about the divorce man.
sorCrer wrote:
pontifex wrote:I agree with most of that. I just don't see the point of Bitcoin when compared with newer, better tech. I mean I know what gives it its current value, I just don't believe that brand recognition and vested interests equate to the properties of gold. Anyway, as everyone else in the space, I made my bets, for reasons which reflect my personal prejudices (environment is a big one).
Well the thinking has always been that Bitcoin was the precursor and something will replace it. I'm slowly but surely moving into ETH (for multiple use case reason), XRP which I'm very long term bullish on and IOTA. My wife is an alt coin specialist so she tends to have to keep me up to date.

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:20 pm
by sorCrer
Bowens wrote:Sorry to hear about the divorce man.
sorCrer wrote:
pontifex wrote:I agree with most of that. I just don't see the point of Bitcoin when compared with newer, better tech. I mean I know what gives it its current value, I just don't believe that brand recognition and vested interests equate to the properties of gold. Anyway, as everyone else in the space, I made my bets, for reasons which reflect my personal prejudices (environment is a big one).
Well the thinking has always been that Bitcoin was the precursor and something will replace it. I'm slowly but surely moving into ETH (for multiple use case reason), XRP which I'm very long term bullish on and IOTA. My wife is an alt coin specialist so she tends to have to keep me up to date.
Semantics. We're not married. She is my 'common law' wife. Not sure if this legal classification exists elsewhere.

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:59 pm
by Rumham
sorCrer wrote:
Bowens wrote:Do you ask your wife the crypo expert before you write these posts?
I don't have a wife? That said, I've been trading cryptocurrencies for more than 4 years.

<globusmode>In May 2014, the front page of our largest national newspaper (Sunday Times) business section i.e. the big story was an article about me and BTC trading</globusmode>

The point is that cryptocurrencies are already here and not going anywhere and sooner or later yourself (Bimbo, SON, etc) will be asking for the price of an item in sats :lol:

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/01 ... -1-billion

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:02 pm
by bimboman
Seneca of the Night wrote:
goeagles wrote:
Bowens wrote:Do you ask your wife the crypo expert before you write these posts?
SorCrer has been pretty on the money in this thread, and other Bitcoin threads before this one, even if I strongly disagree with him on Ripple's long term outlook.
What you mean is that he is reading the market well, but the market is not a closed universe.
He read the bubble well for sure. .i am sure he'll read the crash.

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:13 pm
by sorCrer
Seneca of the Night wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
Bowens wrote:Do you ask your wife the crypo expert before you write these posts?
I don't have a wife? That said, I've been trading cryptocurrencies for more than 4 years.

<globusmode>In May 2014, the front page of our largest national newspaper (Sunday Times) business section i.e. the big story was an article about me and BTC trading</globusmode>

The point is that cryptocurrencies are already here and not going anywhere and sooner or later yourself (Bimbo, SON, etc) will be asking for the price of an item in sats :lol:
I know it goes with the territory in this particular and peculiar case (that of blockchain, bitcoin, and cryptocurrencies), but I can't recall when I've ever discussed something with someone where there has been such a category gulf. You are simply talking about something completely different from me.

You seem as far from geting my point as ever. That seems to be the most terrifying thing about this phenomenon.
Let me try.

Your concern is that a large number of uneducated (in terms of financial instruments) people are investing money in what appears at face value to be, excuse the pun, ether. They're doing this in a very unregulated market where devious financial intellects can manipulate and 'scam' them to the extent that they can lose a serious portion of their living money (i.e. beyond their savings). You clearly accept that the broader technology has value but would prefer tighter regulatory oversight to protect the aforesaid adopters.

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:17 pm
by bimboman
sorCrer wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
Bowens wrote:Do you ask your wife the crypo expert before you write these posts?
I don't have a wife? That said, I've been trading cryptocurrencies for more than 4 years.

<globusmode>In May 2014, the front page of our largest national newspaper (Sunday Times) business section i.e. the big story was an article about me and BTC trading</globusmode>

The point is that cryptocurrencies are already here and not going anywhere and sooner or later yourself (Bimbo, SON, etc) will be asking for the price of an item in sats :lol:
I know it goes with the territory in this particular and peculiar case (that of blockchain, bitcoin, and cryptocurrencies), but I can't recall when I've ever discussed something with someone where there has been such a category gulf. You are simply talking about something completely different from me.

You seem as far from geting my point as ever. That seems to be the most terrifying thing about this phenomenon.
Let me try.

Your concern is that a large number of uneducated (in terms of financial instruments) people are investing money in what appears at face value to be, excuse the pun, ether. They're doing this in a very unregulated market where devious financial intellects can manipulate and 'scam' them to the extent that they can lose a serious portion of their living money (i.e. beyond their savings). You clearly accept that the broader technology has value but would prefer tighter regulatory oversight to protect the aforesaid adopters.

Well I'd rather they didn't lose savings they can afford as well.

You do know it's being manipulated don't you ?

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:21 pm
by sorCrer
bimboman wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
Bowens wrote:Do you ask your wife the crypo expert before you write these posts?
I don't have a wife? That said, I've been trading cryptocurrencies for more than 4 years.

<globusmode>In May 2014, the front page of our largest national newspaper (Sunday Times) business section i.e. the big story was an article about me and BTC trading</globusmode>

The point is that cryptocurrencies are already here and not going anywhere and sooner or later yourself (Bimbo, SON, etc) will be asking for the price of an item in sats :lol:
I know it goes with the territory in this particular and peculiar case (that of blockchain, bitcoin, and cryptocurrencies), but I can't recall when I've ever discussed something with someone where there has been such a category gulf. You are simply talking about something completely different from me.

You seem as far from geting my point as ever. That seems to be the most terrifying thing about this phenomenon.
Let me try.

Your concern is that a large number of uneducated (in terms of financial instruments) people are investing money in what appears at face value to be, excuse the pun, ether. They're doing this in a very unregulated market where devious financial intellects can manipulate and 'scam' them to the extent that they can lose a serious portion of their living money (i.e. beyond their savings). You clearly accept that the broader technology has value but would prefer tighter regulatory oversight to protect the aforesaid adopters.

Well I'd rather they didn't lose savings they can afford as well.

You do know it's being manipulated don't you ?
Just for clarity what is being manipulated and by whom? As a follow-up, why do you think that people can't make a decision as to what to do with the money they have (in most cases) earned?

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:26 pm
by Nabberuk
bimboman wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
Bowens wrote:Do you ask your wife the crypo expert before you write these posts?
I don't have a wife? That said, I've been trading cryptocurrencies for more than 4 years.

<globusmode>In May 2014, the front page of our largest national newspaper (Sunday Times) business section i.e. the big story was an article about me and BTC trading</globusmode>

The point is that cryptocurrencies are already here and not going anywhere and sooner or later yourself (Bimbo, SON, etc) will be asking for the price of an item in sats :lol:
I know it goes with the territory in this particular and peculiar case (that of blockchain, bitcoin, and cryptocurrencies), but I can't recall when I've ever discussed something with someone where there has been such a category gulf. You are simply talking about something completely different from me.

You seem as far from geting my point as ever. That seems to be the most terrifying thing about this phenomenon.
Let me try.

Your concern is that a large number of uneducated (in terms of financial instruments) people are investing money in what appears at face value to be, excuse the pun, ether. They're doing this in a very unregulated market where devious financial intellects can manipulate and 'scam' them to the extent that they can lose a serious portion of their living money (i.e. beyond their savings). You clearly accept that the broader technology has value but would prefer tighter regulatory oversight to protect the aforesaid adopters.

Well I'd rather they didn't lose savings they can afford as well.

You do know it's being manipulated don't you ?
What isn't being manipulated?

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:28 pm
by bimboman
Just for clarity what is being manipulated and by whom? As a follow-up, why do you think that people can't make a decision as to what to do with the money they have (in most cases) earned?
Large holders of Bitcoin and the exchanges they effectively own are supporting price levels , they're also making large amounts trading between "exchanges" using delays on cashing punters money in and out to profit from those time delays and price differences (this is being coordinated within the exchange owners and large "investors" );

Yes of course people can get their own cash out and use it as firewood if they like however, the rise of Bitcoin has been accompanied globally by a massive marketing campaign which is demonstrating tremendous dishonesty regarding what Bitcoin is and that it had various values which cannot all be true.

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:29 pm
by bimboman
What isn't being manipulated?
Eh?, what is the point of that question ?

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:32 pm
by sorCrer
Seneca of the Night wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
I don't have a wife? That said, I've been trading cryptocurrencies for more than 4 years.

<globusmode>In May 2014, the front page of our largest national newspaper (Sunday Times) business section i.e. the big story was an article about me and BTC trading</globusmode>

The point is that cryptocurrencies are already here and not going anywhere and sooner or later yourself (Bimbo, SON, etc) will be asking for the price of an item in sats :lol:
I know it goes with the territory in this particular and peculiar case (that of blockchain, bitcoin, and cryptocurrencies), but I can't recall when I've ever discussed something with someone where there has been such a category gulf. You are simply talking about something completely different from me.

You seem as far from geting my point as ever. That seems to be the most terrifying thing about this phenomenon.
Let me try.

Your concern is that a large number of uneducated (in terms of financial instruments) people are investing money in what appears at face value to be, excuse the pun, ether. They're doing this in a very unregulated market where devious financial intellects can manipulate and 'scam' them to the extent that they can lose a serious portion of their living money (i.e. beyond their savings). You clearly accept that the broader technology has value but would prefer tighter regulatory oversight to protect the aforesaid adopters.
That's a small part of it. There have been some terrible booms and busts in regulated markets. This appears to go way past that, and is global. It's getting a bit concerning that central banks are not making more definitive and coordinated statements on it.
There have been mutterings and national bank statements but I'd agree it hasn't been co-ordinated. Isn't this because some have realised the potential and need for change and are chasing their own versions of the technology?

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:37 pm
by pontifex
sorCrer wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
That's a small part of it. There have been some terrible booms and busts in regulated markets. This appears to go way past that, and is global. It's getting a bit concerning that central banks are not making more definitive and coordinated statements on it.
There have been mutterings and national bank statements but I'd agree it hasn't been co-ordinated. Isn't this because some have realised the potential and need for change and are chasing their own versions of the technology?
The EU's position on it, as far as I'm aware, is that they are going to wait and see, since they view the innovations that will come from the blockchain revolution - and it is a revolution - as having the potential to be extremely valuable. Which is a sound position. That said, the extreme market manipulation is pretty obvious to anyone who's watching closely. I still feel that there will be a handful of survivors which do great things, and I hope I've picked one or two of them, but I have withdrawn my initial investment (which was not all that much) and put it into a property desposit. Now I just have to hope that I can get the rest of the finance together before the deposit term expires.

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:40 pm
by sorCrer
bimboman wrote:
Just for clarity what is being manipulated and by whom? As a follow-up, why do you think that people can't make a decision as to what to do with the money they have (in most cases) earned?
Large holders of Bitcoin and the exchanges they effectively own are supporting price levels , they're also making large amounts trading between "exchanges" using delays on cashing punters money in and out to profit from those time delays and price differences (this is being coordinated within the exchange owners and large "investors" );

Yes of course people can get their own cash out and use it as firewood if they like however, the rise of Bitcoin has been accompanied globally by a massive marketing campaign which is demonstrating tremendous dishonesty regarding what Bitcoin is and that it had various values which cannot all be true.
In 5 years (apart from one occasion), I have never waited longer than a few minutes to move crypto between exchanges.

Here is an example yesterday between Luno, a South African exchange and Bitstamp.

Transaction: https://blockchain.info/tx/dfaab952cc43 ... a358161bf6

Image

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:46 pm
by bimboman
2 minutes is about a life time in finacial trading in mature markets, where 100's of seconds are worth millions of investments. That 2 minutes if you control the weight of movement allows,for enourmous front running.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_Boys

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:49 pm
by sorCrer
Seneca of the Night wrote:


Please, no one except extreme libertarian fruitcakes thinks that (and I suspect a ponzi schemer would even get thrown off Peter Theil's Seasted nation).

I just searched for a little primer, and this isn't too bad:

https://www.ft.com/content/7c0152b4-0af ... 00779fd2ac

Who would have thought 20 years in the City doing those boring regulatory online quizes would have turned me into such a killjoy. But there you go.
Love to read that but it's behind a paywall. But even considering financial regulation, the world driven by information has changed and financial institutions just simply can't move at the required pace. Most boredies on here live in the first world and don't experience things like migrant labour needing to send money back home NOW or even how banks rob the uneducated poor in countries like South Africa.

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:01 pm
by sorCrer
Seneca of the Night wrote:


Why financial regulation is both difficult and essential
MARTIN WOLF Add to myFT

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Martin Wolf

APRIL 15, 2008
Nice try; no cigar. That was my reaction to the attempt of the banking community to forestall additional regulation, by recommending “a suite of best practices to be embraced voluntarily”. It was also the reaction of the policymakers meeting in Washington over the weekend. More regulation is on its way. After frightening politicians and policymakers so badly, even the most optimistic banker must realise this. The question is whether the additional regulation will do any good.

In an interim report on “market best practices”, the Institute for International Finance, an association of bankers, offers devastating self-criticism.* Here then are some of the weaknesses it identifies: “deteriorating lending standards by certain originators of credit”; a “decline of underwriting standards”; an “excessive reliance on poorly understood, poorly performing and less than adequate ratings of structured products”; and “difficulties in identifying where exposures reside”. Would you buy a voluntary code from people who describe their own mistakes in this brutal manner? I thought not. There are two powerful additional reasons for not doing so.

First, in such a fiercely competitive business, a voluntary code is almost certainly not worth the paper it is written on. When they can get away with behaving irresponsibly, some will do so. This puts strong pressure on others. That is what Chuck Prince, former chief executive officer of Citigroup, meant when he told the FT that “as long as the music is playing, you’ve got to get up and dance”. So, as Willem Buiter of the London School of Economics remarks: “Self-regulation stands in relation to regulation the way self-importance stands in relation to importance.”

Second, the industry has form. The IIF itself was founded in 1983 in response to the developing country debt crisis. At that time, big parts of the west’s banking system were in effect bankrupt. Now, many upsets later, we have reached the “subprime crisis”. The IIF was created not only to represent the industry, but to improve its performance. It is clear that this has not worked.

Do not just take my word for it. Last month, Carmen Reinhart of the University of Maryland and Kenneth Rogoff of Harvard published an extraordinary paper on the long history of financial crises.** The chart shows that the incidence of banking crises (measured by the proportion of countries affected) has been as high since 1980 as in any period since 1800; that the incidence of crises is correlated with liberalisation of capital flows; and that there was, until 2007, a decline in the incidence of crises in the 2000s.

Yet why, I ask, should this industry have apparently failed to improve its standards of performance over the past century? After all, almost every other industry has done so. Consider how confident we are that the food we buy will not poison us. Yet adulterated food was once a threat.

Consider, by those standards, the failures of the banking industry, as admitted by the IIF itself. Its purely operational performance is now impressive. But competition does not work well in finance. The “product” of the financial industry is promises for an uncertain future, marketed as dreams that can readily become nightmares. Customers are readily swept away by exaggerated promises, irrational beliefs, misplaced trust and sheer skulduggery. So, too, are practitioners: basing risk management on limited data and inadequate models is a good example. Emotions count wherever uncertainties loom.

Boeing would not survive if the aircraft it built fell out of the sky. Yet in the financial industry, huge blunders are also almost always made in common. If everybody is in the dance nobody is to blame and, in any case, governments, horrified by the consequences of a collapsing financial system, will come to the rescue.

Until last August, I comforted myself with the thought that many of the crises of the past quarter-century occurred in relatively backward financial systems, even if institutions of the first world played a part in “seducing minors”. So things might, I hoped, be getting better.

That is no longer a plausible view. Once the US itself ran a large current account deficit the concomitant accumulations of internal debt generated huge losses, as the excellent new Global Financial Stability Report from the International Monetary Fund points out. The one good thing is that estimated losses of close to $1,000bn are widely distributed (see charts). That makes today’s situation less transparent, sadly. But it also means that the pain is more widely, and so much more safely, shared.

What then is to be done now? Interestingly, there is substantial convergence on the substance between the IIF and the authorities, as shown in a devastatingly critical recent report from the Financial Stability Forum on “enhancing market and institutional resilience”.*** Both agree, for example, that structures of compensation matter, as both I and others have argued. Both agree, too, that risk management was appalling.


The agenda laid out in the official report is lengthy. It includes: strengthening prudential oversight of capital, liquidity and risk management; enhancing transparency; changing the role and uses of credit ratings; strengthening the authorities’ responsiveness to risk; and improving arrangements for dealing with stress. But, it should go without saying, policymakers also believe regulation must be tougher. Given the damage done and the extent of the safety net provided, no alternative exists.

Yet I am not that optimistic about regulation either. Regulators are doomed to close the stable doors behind financial institutions that always find new and more exciting ways of losing money. It is, for this reason, crucial that the institutions, and unsecured creditors, feel some pain: the burned child fears the fire; singeing is less effective. Yet the fire must never burn too far, since that might destroy the entire economy.

If regulation is to be effective, it must cover all relevant institutions and the entire balance sheet, in all significant countries; it must focus on capital, liquidity and transparency; and, not least, it must make finance less pro-cyclical. Will it ever work perfectly? Certainly not. It is impossible and probably even undesirable to create a crisis-free financial system. Crises will always be with us. But we can surely do far better than we have been doing. In any case, we are doomed to try.

*www.iif.com;
** ‘This time is different: a panoramic view of eight centuries of financial crises’, Working Paper 13882, March 2008, http://www.nber.org
*** http://www.bis.org
Cheers. Why not let people be their own 'bankers' for day to day transactions? I mean we pretty much are. We login, monitor our bank accounts and make payments as and when we need to or can.

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:02 pm
by pontifex
I think there's something to my brainfart the other day about the democratization of speculation afforded by crypto. Why shouldn't the plebs also be able to play liar's poker (albeit on steroids) if they understand the risks? It was genuinely bizarre to sit for a few days watching my 'wealth' accumulate without any intervention by me, and I realised that that's essentially what the superrich do (obviously with the difference that their starting investments are much larger, and the incremental gains proportionally lower).

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:06 pm
by bimboman
sorCrer wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:


Please, no one except extreme libertarian fruitcakes thinks that (and I suspect a ponzi schemer would even get thrown off Peter Theil's Seasted nation).

I just searched for a little primer, and this isn't too bad:

https://www.ft.com/content/7c0152b4-0af ... 00779fd2ac

Who would have thought 20 years in the City doing those boring regulatory online quizes would have turned me into such a killjoy. But there you go.
Love to read that but it's behind a paywall. But even considering financial regulation, the world driven by information has changed and financial institutions just simply can't move at the required pace. Most boredies on here live in the first world and don't experience things like migrant labour needing to send money back home NOW or even how banks rob the uneducated poor in countries like South Africa.

There may be a crypto currency which will be useful for poor migrant labour eventually, but Bitcoin really isn't it right now is it.

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:09 pm
by pontifex
bimboman wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:


Please, no one except extreme libertarian fruitcakes thinks that (and I suspect a ponzi schemer would even get thrown off Peter Theil's Seasted nation).

I just searched for a little primer, and this isn't too bad:

https://www.ft.com/content/7c0152b4-0af ... 00779fd2ac

Who would have thought 20 years in the City doing those boring regulatory online quizes would have turned me into such a killjoy. But there you go.
Love to read that but it's behind a paywall. But even considering financial regulation, the world driven by information has changed and financial institutions just simply can't move at the required pace. Most boredies on here live in the first world and don't experience things like migrant labour needing to send money back home NOW or even how banks rob the uneducated poor in countries like South Africa.

There may be a crypto currency which will be useful for poor migrant labour eventually, but Bitcoin really isn't it right now is it.
OmiseGo is an attempt to facilitate remittances inside nations, from urban to rural areas, much like certain SMS based programs currently do in Africa, for instance. 'Is'. I should say might be...

Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:11 pm
by sorCrer
pontifex wrote:I think there's something to my brainfart the other day about the democratization of speculation afforded by crypto. Why shouldn't the plebs also be able to play liar's poker (albeit on steroids) if they understand the risks? It was genuinely bizarre to sit for a few days watching my 'wealth' accumulate without any intervention by me, and I realised that that's essentially what the superrich do (obviously with the difference that their starting investments are much larger, and the incremental gains proportionally lower).
It's actually one of the most amazing things for me that crypto has done. It's brought technical analysis of markets into the more general public. I have people who I would never have thought wanting to discuss candles, volume, Bollinger Band squeezes, RSI, MACD and Ichimoku Clouds and showing a genuine interest in these and other trading strategies and signals.