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 Post subject: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:10 am 
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Is it now officially a thing?


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:14 am 
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Haha you ask on a forum where it exists in it's most exaggerated form (be it often tongue n cheek)


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:21 am 
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Does it exist? Yes. The problem I have with the term is that for those that use it, it is the only form of masculinity. It's not used as a qualifier to describe a certain set of behaviours, it has (to them at least) become a catchall term for everything a man could ever do, has ever done, and ever will do.

You can understand how someone like Jordan Peterson, with his general point that "its ok to be masculine, as long as you are doing it right" gets serious traction.


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:24 am 
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Toro wrote:
Haha you ask on a forum where it exists in it's most exaggerated form (be it often tongue n cheek)


One would argue it's not toxic to admire the female body. We only exist because our fathers did just that.


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:38 am 
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I am not sure that admiring the female body is classed as toxic masculinity? Or is it?


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:41 am 
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True Blue wrote:
Toro wrote:
Haha you ask on a forum where it exists in it's most exaggerated form (be it often tongue n cheek)


One would argue it's not toxic to admire the female body. We only exist because our fathers did just that.


Not sure why you referenced that while quoting my post, but looking at images of women isn't really a good example of toxic masculinity anyway. Talk of man cards is a better reference.


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:42 am 
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Clogs wrote:
I am not sure that admiring the female body is classed as toxic masculinity? Or is it?


Nop, shaming some guy because he doesn't enjoy it would be.


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:54 am 
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Toro wrote:
Clogs wrote:
I am not sure that admiring the female body is classed as toxic masculinity? Or is it?


Nop, shaming some guy because he doesn't enjoy it would be.



Would calling him a bender be an example of toxic masculinity?


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:05 am 
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Clogs wrote:
Is it now officially a thing?


What’s it made of?


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:07 am 
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True Blue wrote:
Toro wrote:
Haha you ask on a forum where it exists in it's most exaggerated form (be it often tongue n cheek)


One would argue it's not toxic to admire the female body. We only exist because our fathers did just that.



Reported for male toxicity


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:15 am 
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Clogs wrote:
Toro wrote:
Clogs wrote:
I am not sure that admiring the female body is classed as toxic masculinity? Or is it?


Nop, shaming some guy because he doesn't enjoy it would be.



Would calling him a bender be an example of toxic masculinity?


Not really, more homophobia. Stick to talk of 'real men'. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:48 am 
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Toro wrote:
Clogs wrote:
Toro wrote:
Clogs wrote:
I am not sure that admiring the female body is classed as toxic masculinity? Or is it?


Nop, shaming some guy because he doesn't enjoy it would be.



Would calling him a bender be an example of toxic masculinity?


Not really, more homophobia. Stick to talk of 'real men'. ;)



But is it homophobic if he really is a bender? See I read your second sentence as being a bit toxic masculinity-ish. Almost as if you are trying to say benders aren't real men, and if you are, then I 100% disagree with you. Benders are real men too.





















Now, we have used the term bender on here on many occasions, but I am starting to get an uneasy feeling that it is no longer an accepted phrase. Can any benders confirm if this is the case?


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:05 am 
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In my books it’s as valid and useful a term as “toxic femininity”.

In other words, it’s nonsensical garbage.


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:17 am 
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Mog The Almighty wrote:
In my books it’s as valid and useful a term as “toxic femininity”.

In other words, it’s nonsensical garbage.

And both extremes use it stupidly.


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:23 am 
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Clogs wrote:
Is it now officially a thing?


Long post match bus journeys on poorly ventilated coaches fulled with inebriated rugby players - the toxic masculine gases are overwhelming at times.


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:34 am 
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What is it?


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:31 am 
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The Native wrote:
What is it?



Men are bad.


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:08 am 
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Convincing other men that another man is fat is toxic masculinity


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:08 am 
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What was probably a term for a more specific type of behaviour is probably going to be well used and abused by people attempting to use it to attack men in general, and also men looking to play the victim card. I wonder which version we'll see more of here on PR?


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:10 am 
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Jeff the Bear wrote:
Does it exist? Yes. The problem I have with the term is that for those that use it, it is the only form of masculinity. It's not used as a qualifier to describe a certain set of behaviours, it has (to them at least) become a catchall term for everything a man could ever do, has ever done, and ever will do.


I hold feminist principles, but I agree with all of this.


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:34 am 
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naki wrote:
Convincing other men that another man is fat is toxic masculinity



Interesting. No mention of couch shunting.


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:46 am 
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The Native wrote:
What is it?


It's when typical male tropes have negative impact on both men and those around them.
Like a man stressing out because his wife is earning more
Or a man feeling who likes show tunes and ballroom dancing being assumed to be a homosexual, so that guy hides his interests from his mates and might exhibit cliche masculine and aggressive behaviours to compensate like being a massive rowdy drinker or growing a big moustache


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:51 am 
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naki wrote:
Convincing other men that another man is fat is toxic masculinity


Not if he is fat.

Then it's just anti fattist bullying

A non gendered issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:03 am 
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Image


women define a man in my opinion


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:26 am 
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Sards wrote:
Image


women define a man in my opinion


Yeah, nah. 'real men' gatekeeping is just as bad as this toxic masculinity bollocks.

A healthy way for a man to be is to be independent, resilient and confident but not to use that to be a bully and instead be a positive in society. About the same as you'd want women to behave.


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:39 am 
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Toro wrote:
True Blue wrote:
Toro wrote:
Haha you ask on a forum where it exists in it's most exaggerated form (be it often tongue n cheek)


One would argue it's not toxic to admire the female body. We only exist because our fathers did just that.


Not sure why you referenced that while quoting my post, but looking at images of women isn't really a good example of toxic masculinity anyway. Talk of man cards is a better reference.


There are many though who do claim this sort of behaviour is toxic masculinity. Objectifying women etc etc etc. I believe it is rubbish but this sort of thinking is out there by the usual offensive victims/SJW types/Oppression olympic players.


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:31 am 
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In the recent past it probably had some merit, but it's become over-used and to a certain extent weaponised by portions of the fringe left who use twatter to shout loudest and longest.


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:35 am 
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Clogs wrote:
I am not sure that admiring the female body is classed as toxic masculinity? Or is it?

It's how you act on that that matters. Admiring the view quietly is one thing, catcalling and so on isn't great.


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:43 am 
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One of those terms that has value but has been so overused it almost lacks any meaning now.


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:43 am 
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Nolanator wrote:
Clogs wrote:
I am not sure that admiring the female body is classed as toxic masculinity? Or is it?

It's how you act on that that matters. Admiring the view quietly is one thing, catcalling and so on isn't great.


Depends who you talk to. I've witnessed the mind boggling stupidity of a 'men shouldn't even look at women' in a feminist campus rant. Fringe view of course.

Cat-calling's a piece of shit thing to do, but I don't think it's got much of a relationship with defining masculinity does it?


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:17 pm 
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sockwithaticket wrote:
Nolanator wrote:
Clogs wrote:
I am not sure that admiring the female body is classed as toxic masculinity? Or is it?

It's how you act on that that matters. Admiring the view quietly is one thing, catcalling and so on isn't great.


Depends who you talk to. I've witnessed the mind boggling stupidity of a 'men shouldn't even look at women' in a feminist campus rant. Fringe view of course.

Cat-calling's a piece of shit thing to do, but I don't think it's got much of a relationship with defining masculinity does it?


Here's a thing though - if a female stranger walks up to you and she looks amazing, would you ever remark to her in a genuinely complimentary way, "do you mind if I just say you look amazing?" Yes, it could easily be taken the wrong way (or made very creepy) but I suspect a fair few of us have done it on rare occasion and every time it's been met with genuinely happiness. "You've actually made my day, thank you" was one response. To be fair, it was about 20 years ago (probably) so maybe times were different.

That's probably as far as you could push anything before it goes over the line, and even that might be seen as too pushy/forceful and unsolicited by some. Fair enough, it's a grey area perhaps. But what about smiling at someone as she walks past because she's hot? Is that unacceptable?

Cat calling / wolf whistling is crap - I agree. But in the mind of the uneducated, is that their version of simply smiling? They're still thick choppers if they do it, but maybe that's the extent of their thought process?


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:27 pm 
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sockwithaticket wrote:
Nolanator wrote:
Clogs wrote:
I am not sure that admiring the female body is classed as toxic masculinity? Or is it?

It's how you act on that that matters. Admiring the view quietly is one thing, catcalling and so on isn't great.


Depends who you talk to. I've witnessed the mind boggling stupidity of a 'men shouldn't even look at women' in a feminist campus rant. Fringe view of course.
The violence of the stare, I recall hearing about it circa 1989.


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:28 pm 
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sockwithaticket wrote:

Cat-calling's a piece of shit thing to do, but I don't think it's got much of a relationship with defining masculinity does it?


You could make a fairly good argument that it's a great example of the type of behaviour associated with toxic masculinity though.


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:30 pm 
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pjm1 wrote:
sockwithaticket wrote:
Nolanator wrote:
Clogs wrote:
I am not sure that admiring the female body is classed as toxic masculinity? Or is it?

It's how you act on that that matters. Admiring the view quietly is one thing, catcalling and so on isn't great.


Depends who you talk to. I've witnessed the mind boggling stupidity of a 'men shouldn't even look at women' in a feminist campus rant. Fringe view of course.

Cat-calling's a piece of shit thing to do, but I don't think it's got much of a relationship with defining masculinity does it?


Here's a thing though - if a female stranger walks up to you and she looks amazing, would you ever remark to her in a genuinely complimentary way, "do you mind if I just say you look amazing?" Yes, it could easily be taken the wrong way (or made very creepy) but I suspect a fair few of us have done it on rare occasion and every time it's been met with genuinely happiness. "You've actually made my day, thank you" was one response. To be fair, it was about 20 years ago (probably) so maybe times were different.

That's probably as far as you could push anything before it goes over the line, and even that might be seen as too pushy/forceful and unsolicited by some. Fair enough, it's a grey area perhaps. But what about smiling at someone as she walks past because she's hot? Is that unacceptable?

Cat calling / wolf whistling is crap - I agree. But in the mind of the uneducated, is that their version of simply smiling? They're still thick choppers if they do it, but maybe that's the extent of their thought process?


I'd never talk to a stranger except to say 'Excuse me', point out that they've dropped something or similar. Otherwise it's headphones in, laser-focus on where I'm going. That was even before I became aware enough that the vast majority of women don't appreciate it, though some do of course because not everyone's the same. I may be atypical.

Even if you're saying it to be nice you're basically going 'I've weighed up your aesthetic value and found it lands in the positive column'. A smile's probably ok as it's less specifically directed. If you're going to ogle, I'd say keep it to yourself unless you know someone well enough to know they wouldn;t mind a comment.

On cat-calling and certain types, they're not doing it 'cause they think it's nice. I absolutely bollocked a group of lads from, shall we say, a lower socio-economic back ground I caught doing it while i was still teaching and when I asked them to explain themselves they couldn't articulate why they were doing it, not even a half-hearted 'I wanted to give her a compliment'; they were ashamed because they knew it was scummy, but went ahead and did it anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:35 pm 
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Turbogoat wrote:
sockwithaticket wrote:

Cat-calling's a piece of shit thing to do, but I don't think it's got much of a relationship with defining masculinity does it?


You could make a fairly good argument that it's a great example of the type of behaviour associated with toxic masculinity though.


That's fair.


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:43 pm 
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Plato'sCave wrote:
Clogs wrote:
Is it now officially a thing?


What’s it made of?


foreskins?


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:52 pm 
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sockwithaticket wrote:
pjm1 wrote:
sockwithaticket wrote:
Nolanator wrote:
Clogs wrote:
I am not sure that admiring the female body is classed as toxic masculinity? Or is it?

It's how you act on that that matters. Admiring the view quietly is one thing, catcalling and so on isn't great.


Depends who you talk to. I've witnessed the mind boggling stupidity of a 'men shouldn't even look at women' in a feminist campus rant. Fringe view of course.

Cat-calling's a piece of shit thing to do, but I don't think it's got much of a relationship with defining masculinity does it?


Here's a thing though - if a female stranger walks up to you and she looks amazing, would you ever remark to her in a genuinely complimentary way, "do you mind if I just say you look amazing?" Yes, it could easily be taken the wrong way (or made very creepy) but I suspect a fair few of us have done it on rare occasion and every time it's been met with genuinely happiness. "You've actually made my day, thank you" was one response. To be fair, it was about 20 years ago (probably) so maybe times were different.

That's probably as far as you could push anything before it goes over the line, and even that might be seen as too pushy/forceful and unsolicited by some. Fair enough, it's a grey area perhaps. But what about smiling at someone as she walks past because she's hot? Is that unacceptable?

Cat calling / wolf whistling is crap - I agree. But in the mind of the uneducated, is that their version of simply smiling? They're still thick choppers if they do it, but maybe that's the extent of their thought process?


I'd never talk to a stranger except to say 'Excuse me', point out that they've dropped something or similar. Otherwise it's headphones in, laser-focus on where I'm going. That was even before I became aware enough that the vast majority of women don't appreciate it, though some do of course because not everyone's the same. I may be atypical.

Even if you're saying it to be nice you're basically going 'I've weighed up your aesthetic value and found it lands in the positive column'. A smile's probably ok as it's less specifically directed. If you're going to ogle, I'd say keep it to yourself unless you know someone well enough to know they wouldn;t mind a comment.

On cat-calling and certain types, they're not doing it 'cause they think it's nice. I absolutely bollocked a group of lads from, shall we say, a lower socio-economic back ground I caught doing it while i was still teaching and when I asked them to explain themselves they couldn't articulate why they were doing it, not even a half-hearted 'I wanted to give her a compliment'; they were ashamed because they knew it was scummy, but went ahead and did it anyway.


Re: the talking to fitties point, I'm in agreement with you entirely now - for the main reason that I'm married and not looking to get chatting with girls I find attractive and who might find me likewise.

I can't remember clearly because it was such a long time ago now, but I'm pretty certain I'd have only had the balls to do it if a girl clocked me first and there was some sort of registering of interest/acknowledgement. If someone had have been head down I certainly wouldn't have been tapping her on the shoulder to ask her to wear a lower cut top next time ;)

Cat calling I agree - I personally wouldn't have the plums to round on a gang of unknown youths doing it, unless the woman was visibly distressed... you're just asking for a potential kicking for what ultimate benefit. Clearly your situation was spot on and you recognised they would see the error of their ways.

Funnily enough I was walking down the street the other day and a woman coming towards me - not totally unattractive - gave me the loveliest smile. I was pretty engrossed in my own thoughts so barely managed some weird sort of grimace which turned into a smile about 10 metres after she'd passed me. Poor girl probably thought she'd scarred me. Nice knockers, from what I remember, too.


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:11 pm 
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What the Fûck do you think people did before the internet, Facebook, Twitter and Tinder?

How do you think anybody met anybody else they fancied?


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:17 pm 
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It really has nothing to do with looking at women you find attractive or talking to strangers. That's more the 'me too' movement. Get with it fellas.


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 Post subject: Re: Toxic masculinity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:29 pm 
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Flametop wrote:
What the Fûck do you think people did before the internet, Facebook, Twitter and Tinder?

How do you think anybody met anybody else they fancied?


I hope to Christ nobody ever thought catcalling was the way to go about meeting people.

How to meet women:

1: Be really really ridiculously good looking.
2: See object of your desires.
3: Make non-sexually aggressive, non-rapey approach. (avoid Silver's "are you a pizza lady?" pick up line)
4: Observe response, verbal, body language, dialling 911 etc... to see if more overt approach would be welcomed.
5A: Step away gracefully before Pepper spray is deployed, avoiding calling them a slut, whore or bitch for not accepting your advances.
5B: Make a gentlemanly move to up the stakes if previous approach was acknowledged, welcomed and encouraged.
5C: Allow them to ravish you right there in the middle of Starbucks as they're unable to contain their lust for you.
6: Continue to observe verbal and non-verbal clues as to whether you are about to get your bollocks fondled or throttled.
7: Suggest some quality time with the Viking helmet with rotating horns, Madagascan erotic finger-puppets and the Thousand Island dressing once you've established enough of a suggestive rapport that has not been shot down or ignored.


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