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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:26 pm 
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hermie wrote:
CM11 wrote:
I'm not sure about the Sexton/Farrell axis being an option at all. Against the Crusaders they lined up with Sexton at 10 for defence but in the centre on attack and that's just a bit too mishmashed to be in Gatland's thinking going into a test. It pointed towards him wanting Farrell at 10 above all others. The Maori selection is hard to read as Farrell possibly had the niggle prior to selection so it wasn't a straight decision to pick Sexton over him. We could very well be reverting to what we expected with Farrell starting at 10 and Sexton on the bench and I have no real problem with that. And we're in a much better position now than we were 2 weeks ago knowing that a) Sexton can step in and perform and b) Sexton/Farrell does work if we need it to.

I wouldn't have wanted us to arrive at Teo/Davies before the tour and still have my problems with it but I can't see it being anyone else.

See the article Flametop posted. That was not the case at all. They alternated in attack, to good effect.


Well, all the gifs in the article are from phase play when you'd always expect a bit of alternation if you had two playmakers. I didn't look at how they set up for every setpiece but any of the ones I paid attention to had Farrell at 10 in attack and Sexton there in defence.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:47 pm 
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CM11 wrote:
hermie wrote:
CM11 wrote:
I'm not sure about the Sexton/Farrell axis being an option at all. Against the Crusaders they lined up with Sexton at 10 for defence but in the centre on attack and that's just a bit too mishmashed to be in Gatland's thinking going into a test. It pointed towards him wanting Farrell at 10 above all others. The Maori selection is hard to read as Farrell possibly had the niggle prior to selection so it wasn't a straight decision to pick Sexton over him. We could very well be reverting to what we expected with Farrell starting at 10 and Sexton on the bench and I have no real problem with that. And we're in a much better position now than we were 2 weeks ago knowing that a) Sexton can step in and perform and b) Sexton/Farrell does work if we need it to.

I wouldn't have wanted us to arrive at Teo/Davies before the tour and still have my problems with it but I can't see it being anyone else.

See the article Flametop posted. That was not the case at all. They alternated in attack, to good effect.


Well, all the gifs in the article are from phase play when you'd always expect a bit of alternation if you had two playmakers. I didn't look at how they set up for every setpiece but any of the ones I paid attention to had Farrell at 10 in attack and Sexton there in defence.

I haven't watched the game again but from memory Sexton stood at 10 more often than not. Your point about phaseplay doesn't really wash. If they wanted Farrell as the sole playmaker they would have sent Sexton on with those instructions and re-enforced those instructions at half-time. They may not go for and certainly they seem reticent but I think you're wrong to say that they're not even considering it.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:54 pm 
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hermie wrote:
CM11 wrote:
hermie wrote:
CM11 wrote:
I'm not sure about the Sexton/Farrell axis being an option at all. Against the Crusaders they lined up with Sexton at 10 for defence but in the centre on attack and that's just a bit too mishmashed to be in Gatland's thinking going into a test. It pointed towards him wanting Farrell at 10 above all others. The Maori selection is hard to read as Farrell possibly had the niggle prior to selection so it wasn't a straight decision to pick Sexton over him. We could very well be reverting to what we expected with Farrell starting at 10 and Sexton on the bench and I have no real problem with that. And we're in a much better position now than we were 2 weeks ago knowing that a) Sexton can step in and perform and b) Sexton/Farrell does work if we need it to.

I wouldn't have wanted us to arrive at Teo/Davies before the tour and still have my problems with it but I can't see it being anyone else.

See the article Flametop posted. That was not the case at all. They alternated in attack, to good effect.


Well, all the gifs in the article are from phase play when you'd always expect a bit of alternation if you had two playmakers. I didn't look at how they set up for every setpiece but any of the ones I paid attention to had Farrell at 10 in attack and Sexton there in defence.

I haven't watched the game again but from memory Sexton stood at 10 more often than not. Your point about phaseplay doesn't really wash. If they wanted Farrell as the sole playmaker they would have sent Sexton on with those instructions and re-enforced those instructions at half-time. They may not go for and certainly they seem reticent but I think you're wrong to say that they're not even considering it.


I never said they wanted Farrell as sole playmaker. You're hardly going to send Sexton on and ask him to play like Teo or Davies. I said they seemed to be favouring Farrell at 10 in attack and given you'd never set it up that way beforehand (given Farrell actually plays centre internationally) it pointed towards them wanting Farrell to be the primary playmaker with the tests in mind.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:57 pm 
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They're quite similar really, aren't they?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:00 pm 
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Te'o as a test 12 worries me. Really hope Gatland goes with Farrell at 12 but we won't see it if we're going to play how we did vs the MAB


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:00 pm 
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CM11 wrote:
hermie wrote:
CM11 wrote:
hermie wrote:
CM11 wrote:
I'm not sure about the Sexton/Farrell axis being an option at all. Against the Crusaders they lined up with Sexton at 10 for defence but in the centre on attack and that's just a bit too mishmashed to be in Gatland's thinking going into a test. It pointed towards him wanting Farrell at 10 above all others. The Maori selection is hard to read as Farrell possibly had the niggle prior to selection so it wasn't a straight decision to pick Sexton over him. We could very well be reverting to what we expected with Farrell starting at 10 and Sexton on the bench and I have no real problem with that. And we're in a much better position now than we were 2 weeks ago knowing that a) Sexton can step in and perform and b) Sexton/Farrell does work if we need it to.

I wouldn't have wanted us to arrive at Teo/Davies before the tour and still have my problems with it but I can't see it being anyone else.

See the article Flametop posted. That was not the case at all. They alternated in attack, to good effect.


Well, all the gifs in the article are from phase play when you'd always expect a bit of alternation if you had two playmakers. I didn't look at how they set up for every setpiece but any of the ones I paid attention to had Farrell at 10 in attack and Sexton there in defence.

I haven't watched the game again but from memory Sexton stood at 10 more often than not. Your point about phaseplay doesn't really wash. If they wanted Farrell as the sole playmaker they would have sent Sexton on with those instructions and re-enforced those instructions at half-time. They may not go for and certainly they seem reticent but I think you're wrong to say that they're not even considering it.


I never said they wanted Farrell as sole playmaker. You're hardly going to send Sexton on and ask him to play like Teo or Davies. I said they seemed to be favouring Farrell at 10 in attack and given you'd never set it up that way beforehand (given Farrell actually plays centre internationally) it pointed towards them wanting Farrell to be the primary playmaker with the tests in mind.

Splitting hairs, I still think you're wrong. You say you don't think that Sexton/Farrell is even an option despite the fact that Gatland says it is and that Sexton clearly played mostly at 10 against the Crusaders.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:44 pm 
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mako
george
furlong
itoje
kruis
pom
sob
faletau
murray
sexton
williams
faz
teo
watson
halfpenny

mgrath
best
sinkler
henderson
warburton/stander
webb
daly
jj


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:34 pm 
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This is the team I think Gatland will pick. Where I have two or more names, it is because of uncertainty. It is probably the first one, but could be one of the others.

mako
george - owens
furlong
itoje
kruis
pom
sob
faletau
murray
faz - sexton
williams - north - daly
t'eo
davies
watson
halfpenny

mgrath
owens - george
sinkler
awj - henderson
warburton
webb
sexton - faz
daly-williams

north will either be in 1st XV or not in the XXIII


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:26 pm 
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Warburton will start.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:34 pm 
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Last Line wrote:
Warburton will start.


:thumbup:


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:35 pm 
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He's got to have a line-up surprise or 2 up his sleeve

not Toby at 6?
1/2p on the wing with Sanjay at FB?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:36 pm 
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Frodder wrote:
He's got to have a line-up surprise or 2 up his sleeve

not Toby at 6?
1/2p on the wing with Sanjay at FB?


AWJ starting, Warburton starting, North starting.

They're are my 'surprise' selections.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:38 pm 
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Hawk97 wrote:
Frodder wrote:
He's got to have a line-up surprise or 2 up his sleeve

not Toby at 6?
1/2p on the wing with Sanjay at FB?


AWJ starting, Warburton starting, North starting.

They're are my 'surprise' selections.


Davies also. An oldie but a goodie.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:38 pm 
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Flametop wrote:
Hawk97 wrote:
Frodder wrote:
He's got to have a line-up surprise or 2 up his sleeve

not Toby at 6?
1/2p on the wing with Sanjay at FB?


AWJ starting, Warburton starting, North starting.

They're are my 'surprise' selections.


Davies also. An oldie but a goodie.


He might actually warrant selection, tbf.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:39 pm 
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Hawk97 wrote:
Frodder wrote:
He's got to have a line-up surprise or 2 up his sleeve

not Toby at 6?
1/2p on the wing with Sanjay at FB?


AWJ starting, Warburton starting, North starting.

They're are my 'surprise' selections.


Only North will start and that's only 'cos his competition hasn't stepped up


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:34 pm 
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Haven't been able to watch the last few matches, is sexy time back on form? If so I would have him start, Farrell is in good form but unless the lions can replicate sarries way if playing I would rather have the angry man, he seems to lift his game and try things more when things are going against his team, farrells best international performances have come at 12.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:52 pm 
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Frodder wrote:
Hawk97 wrote:
Frodder wrote:
He's got to have a line-up surprise or 2 up his sleeve

not Toby at 6?
1/2p on the wing with Sanjay at FB?


AWJ starting, Warburton starting, North starting.

They're are my 'surprise' selections.


Only North will start and that's only 'cos his competition hasn't stepped up


So we'll forget North has done nothing in attack and gifted the Maori a try, I suppose


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:01 pm 
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Hawk97 wrote:
Flametop wrote:
Hawk97 wrote:
Frodder wrote:
He's got to have a line-up surprise or 2 up his sleeve

not Toby at 6?
1/2p on the wing with Sanjay at FB?


AWJ starting, Warburton starting, North starting.

They're are my 'surprise' selections.


Davies also. An oldie but a goodie.


He might actually warrant selection, tbf.


He can't pass/won't pass. The wings have yet to be put into space despite several line breaks. He dies with the ball.


Last edited by Flametop on Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:23 pm 
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Yeah not sure why Davies is considered in so many starting selections. I know he is a Gatland favourite but has been average enough.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:56 pm 
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JM2K6 wrote:
Frodder wrote:
Hawk97 wrote:
Frodder wrote:
He's got to have a line-up surprise or 2 up his sleeve

not Toby at 6?
1/2p on the wing with Sanjay at FB?


AWJ starting, Warburton starting, North starting.

They're are my 'surprise' selections.


Only North will start and that's only 'cos his competition hasn't stepped up


So we'll forget North has done nothing in attack and gifted the Maori a try, I suppose


Yes


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:57 pm 
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I'm so disappointed with Liam Williams, just hasnt clicked into gear for him. Me and my best friend were at the Pro 12 final and he was the best player on the pitch by a million miles. He made Earls look like he was running in treacle for the whole game.

Is he carrying an injury or just unlucky? I actually think if he'd picked Liam and Henshaw in a decent team we might be in a better place now. That said, the other players have taken their chances. The 2 lads above have not. What a waste of talent though.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:59 pm 
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Boxcar Ira wrote:
Yeah not sure why Davies is considered in so many starting selections. I know he is a Gatland favourite but has been average enough.


He lost us the second test in Oz and still got picked for the third. He sure did fix our scrum problems though. :roll:


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:06 pm 
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Boxcar Ira wrote:
Yeah not sure why Davies is considered in so many starting selections. I know he is a Gatland favourite but has been average enough.


Because the other contenders for the 13 jersey are limited or underwhelming ? Davies has been as good as he's ever going to be , and that was always gojng to be good enough for Gatland. Shame he can't pass


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:19 pm 
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rfurlong wrote:
mako
george
furlong
itoje
kruis
pom
sob
faletau
murray
sexton
williams
faz
teo
watson
halfpenny

mgrath
best
sinkler
henderson
warburton/stander
webb
daly
jj

That's exactly what I'd go for except JD or JJ for Teo. Teo is a bit of a one trick bosh merchant. Stander for the bench. Warburton wouldn't be within an million miles of the test team but for a Welsh coach.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:59 am 
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Halfpenny
Watson
Davies
Teo
Daly

Sexton
Murray

McGrath
George
Furlong
Itoje
Kruis
O'Mahoney
Faletau
O'Brien

---------

Owens
Mako
Sinckler
Lawes
Warburton
Webb
Farrell
Williams

That's my team, I'm sure he will pick North with Daly at 23, and I'm most undecided about whether to start Mako V..... I'm sure you tomorrow I will.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:09 am 
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My Pick
Williams, Watson, Davies, Teo, Daly, Farrell, Murray
Mako, George, Furlong, Itoje, Kruis, POM, SOB, Faletau
Subs - Owens, McGrath, Sinckler, Lawes/Hendo, Warburton, Webb, Sexton, Joseph

Gats' Pick
Halfpenny, Watson, Davies, Teo, North, Sexton, Murray
Mako, George, Furlong, Itoje, Kruis, SOB, Warburton, Faletau
Subs - Owens, McGrath, Sinckler, AWJ, POM/Stander, Webb, Farrell, Daly/Joseph


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:10 am 
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How will Faz (or Sexton) cope with not being picked to start?
Faz has had a few key mistakes but has played his usual standard.
Sexton started badly even before NZ but had played himself back into form.
Sexton playing well is a far better player than Faz playing well.

It's going to be interesting.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:11 am 
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If Gat's picks Warburton and AWJ to start in the test then he's properly taking the piss.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:52 am 
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Flametop wrote:
How will Faz (or Sexton) cope with not being picked to start?
Faz has had a few key mistakes but has played his usual standard.
Sexton started badly even before NZ but had played himself back into form.
Sexton playing well is a far better player than Faz playing well.

It's going to be interesting.


I'm sure both will take it with their usual good grace.........
:P

Of course both will be disappointed, that's what makes them such good players - their drive, but both will be professional enough to accept the decision. It'll be tough on Farrell if he benches and it'll almost definitely be down to an injury at just the wrong time but I can still see him starting. He's just in sharper form overall and far less likely to make big errors. I'd still be slightly worried that Sexton has 2 big errors waiting to happen in his game.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:53 am 
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Boxcar Ira wrote:
Yeah not sure why Davies is considered in so many starting selections. I know he is a Gatland favourite but has been average enough.


13 has been piss-weak, on the whole.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:53 am 
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45jumper wrote:
My Pick
Williams, Watson, Davies, Teo, Daly, Farrell, Murray
Mako, George, Furlong, Itoje, Kruis, POM, SOB, Faletau
Subs - Owens, McGrath, Sinckler, Lawes/Hendo, Warburton, Webb, Sexton, Joseph

Gats' Pick
Halfpenny, Watson, Davies, Teo, North, Sexton, Murray
Mako, George, Furlong, Itoje, Kruis, SOB, Warburton, Faletau
Subs - Owens, McGrath, Sinckler, AWJ, POM/Stander, Webb, Farrell, Daly/Joseph


I think your pick is probably spot on for most. Just a shame Te'o is going to be in there, such a limited 12 and ridiculously slow in space though we'll probably be playing 10 man stuff so can't imagine it'll matter too much

Daly and Watson on the wings in theory is probably the best but up against Savea there's only going to be one winner there


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:55 am 
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Newsome wrote:
If Gat's picks Warburton and AWJ to start in the test then he's properly taking the piss.


At this stage Hendo and Lawes aren't going to feature on the bench (they wouldn't have played 80 today) so in that scenario I'd actually prefer AWJ to start so we had some impact and energy in the final 30. I'd have preferred one of the other two to bench for Kruis and Itoje though.

Warburton will probably bench at this stage, I reckon but actually it's much of a muchness whether he benches for POM or vice versa. Both have their pros and cons.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:57 am 
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CM11 wrote:
Newsome wrote:
If Gat's picks Warburton and AWJ to start in the test then he's properly taking the piss.


At this stage Hendo and Lawes aren't going to feature on the bench (they wouldn't have played 80 today) so in that scenario I'd actually prefer AWJ to start so we had some impact and energy in the final 30. I'd have preferred one of the other two to bench for Kruis and Itoje though.

Warburton will probably bench at this stage, I reckon but actually it's much of a muchness whether he benches for POM or vice versa. Both have their pros and cons.


You either start Kruis or he's out of the squad altogether imo


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:57 am 
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He'll start, no doubt about that.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:59 am 
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Ulsters Red Hand wrote:
CM11 wrote:
Newsome wrote:
If Gat's picks Warburton and AWJ to start in the test then he's properly taking the piss.


At this stage Hendo and Lawes aren't going to feature on the bench (they wouldn't have played 80 today) so in that scenario I'd actually prefer AWJ to start so we had some impact and energy in the final 30. I'd have preferred one of the other two to bench for Kruis and Itoje though.

Warburton will probably bench at this stage, I reckon but actually it's much of a muchness whether he benches for POM or vice versa. Both have their pros and cons.


You either start Kruis or he's out of the squad altogether imo


Well in the above it'd be Itoje on the bench for the impact but Kruis would still provide far more impact and energy than AWJ off the bench these days.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:33 pm 
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CM11 wrote:
Ulsters Red Hand wrote:
CM11 wrote:
Newsome wrote:
If Gat's picks Warburton and AWJ to start in the test then he's properly taking the piss.


At this stage Hendo and Lawes aren't going to feature on the bench (they wouldn't have played 80 today) so in that scenario I'd actually prefer AWJ to start so we had some impact and energy in the final 30. I'd have preferred one of the other two to bench for Kruis and Itoje though.

Warburton will probably bench at this stage, I reckon but actually it's much of a muchness whether he benches for POM or vice versa. Both have their pros and cons.


You either start Kruis or he's out of the squad altogether imo


Well in the above it'd be Itoje on the bench for the impact but Kruis would still provide far more impact and energy than AWJ off the bench these days.


One of best things about Itoje is insane work rate from beginning to end. When he starts, unless he dies or is having a complete stinker, he'll be there at the end putting in a big shift. He'll move to 6, stay at lock, whatever. This gives you the flexibility in the 2nd and backrow with your subs.

He's more a performance diesel of a starter than an explosive impact sub.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:46 pm 
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On form, the team would be

15. Liam
14 an other
13 JD
12 Teo
11an other
10 Farrell
9 Murray
8 Faletau
7 SOB
6 POM
5 Lawes
4 Itoje
3 Furlong
2 Owens
1 Mako

reps: an other (LHP), George, Sinkler, Hendo, Tipuric, Webb, an other (utility), an other ( 10)

These are the only guys who've earned a place. The rest have been massively up and down, or just down.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:49 pm 
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CM11 wrote:
Flametop wrote:
How will Faz (or Sexton) cope with not being picked to start?
Faz has had a few key mistakes but has played his usual standard.
Sexton started badly even before NZ but had played himself back into form.
Sexton playing well is a far better player than Faz playing well.

It's going to be interesting.


I'm sure both will take it with their usual good grace.........
:P

Of course both will be disappointed, that's what makes them such good players - their drive, but both will be professional enough to accept the decision. It'll be tough on Farrell if he benches and it'll almost definitely be down to an injury at just the wrong time but I can still see him starting. He's just in sharper form overall and far less likely to make big errors. I'd still be slightly worried that Sexton has 2 big errors waiting to happen in his game.


Farrell - excellent kicking game, shovels passes to next player but no line breaks, runs into opposition, poor tackler and has brain farts
Sexton, fair kicker, but has far more vision and flair than Farrell and better pace, far better tackler. Has brain farts.

If Halfpenny starts, I would pick Sexton
Any other FB, Farrell.
With the other on the bench.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:50 pm 
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Has there ever been a time when you Planet Rugby armchair experts haven't been completely and utterly wrong? :lol: Yet you still go at it, God loves a trier. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:51 pm 
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cubby boi wrote:
On form, the team would be

15. Liam
14 an other
13 JD
12 Teo
11an other
10 Farrell
9 Murray
8 Faletau
7 SOB
6 POM
5 Lawes
4 Itoje
3 Furlong
2 Owens
1 Mako

reps: an other (LHP), George, Sinkler, Hendo, Tipuric, Webb, an other (utility), an other ( 10)

These are the only guys who've earned a place. The rest have been massively up and down, or just down.
On form Owens over George? Lawes over Kruis, I'm not sure what you're smoking, but you should probably stop it's effecting your judgement.


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