Re: Corbyn calls on empty London houses to be seized + occup
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:54 pm
The greatest political miscalculation since the brexit referendum. Tories. You get the politicians you deserve.
The definitive rugby union forum. Talk to fans from around the world about your favourite team
https://forum.planetrugby.com/
Don't give me that crap. We have a very good idea Corbyn would be a farking disaster. That is not the point though as we won't find out for sure until he has the gig.theo wrote:We have no idea what kind of PM Corbyn will be. It's a very different job from being the leader of the opposition.Anonymous. wrote:From March
People are jokes
can't blame her for calling an election with those figuresIn bad news for Jeremy Corbyn, the proportion of people who think he would make a better Prime Minister than Theresa May hits its lowest level ever this week, at 13%. With 51% of Brits believing the Conservative leader to be a superior choice, May's 38 point lead is also the highest it has ever been
Mate, they were in a position of strength against an opponent busy shooting itself in the foot on every occasion, called a general election to hammer it home and have ended up having to go into coalition just to remain in power. That's not a mandate, that's "holy jesus we fucked this up big time".slick wrote:But are governing with, literally, a fairly decent majority, roses or not. Which suggests to me that people just want them to get on with it and don't want Corbyn near it.JM2K6 wrote:That's a bizarre response that has virtually no connection to what's been said. What on earth are you blathering on about? Do you think the Prime Ministers we've had since Blair have been impressive and voted in on personality? It's gone Brown - Cameron - May. Of those you could say Cameron was vaguely media-friendly, but he was no Blair.Torquemada 1420 wrote:No you didn't. Maybe in the educated, privileged elite of London where the likes of you and yeeb would scrutinise policy but outside the M4/M25? That London-centric inability to see beyond one's own naval was largely the cause of the "surprise" Brexit result and "surprise" no Tory landslide result.JM2K6 wrote:And we reverted right after Blair.Torquemada 1420 wrote:Blair and the UK media (read Murdoch) long ago moved elections into the US model of cult of the personality.
Banging on about the London bubble is very, very strange. That goes for you, too, slick: we literally just had a vote on the suitability of the Tories to govern and they did not come out of it smelling of roses.
I'm not going to go round in circles but I didn't expect you to be one of these people banging on about the Torys not having a mandate when they clearly won an election.
JM2K6 wrote: Mate, they were in a position of strength against an opponent busy shooting itself in the foot on every occasion, called a general election to hammer it home and have ended up having to go into coalition just to remain in power. That's not a mandate, that's "holy jesus we fucked this up big time".
I mean, that's pretty much the consensus view on this across the political divide.
The miscalculation wasn't holding an election; that was entirely sensible, given the polling numbers at the time, and the desire not to have an election at the exact same time as we are leaving the EU.Duff Paddy wrote:The greatest political miscalculation since the brexit referendum. Tories. You get the politicians you deserve.
tum te tumBritish voters refuse to give the Conservatives a mandate
Another election may follow later this year
That was written the day after the election.JM2K6 wrote:http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicd ... ly-chart-5
tum te tumBritish voters refuse to give the Conservatives a mandate
Another election may follow later this year
So? The votes tally didn't suddenly change.theo wrote:That was written the day after the election.JM2K6 wrote:http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicd ... ly-chart-5
tum te tumBritish voters refuse to give the Conservatives a mandate
Another election may follow later this year
The Tories will work with what they have. All of the other parties added together (less the NI parties) don't have enough MP's to oust them or vote them down. Assuming the DUP play ball (and SF don't turn up) then the Tories have a workable majority and will crack on.
Last full parliament we average 4 bye elections a year. May cannot still be PM by conference. They have to get rid of her.theo wrote:That was written the day after the election.JM2K6 wrote:http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicd ... ly-chart-5
tum te tumBritish voters refuse to give the Conservatives a mandate
Another election may follow later this year
The Tories will work with what they have. All of the other parties added together (less the NI parties) don't have enough MP's to oust them or vote them down. Assuming the DUP play ball (and SF don't turn up) then the Tories have a workable majority and will crack on.
But the determination of the Tories to crack on with Government with the DUP was not set out.JM2K6 wrote:So? The votes tally didn't suddenly change.theo wrote:That was written the day after the election.JM2K6 wrote:http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicd ... ly-chart-5
tum te tumBritish voters refuse to give the Conservatives a mandate
Another election may follow later this year
The Tories will work with what they have. All of the other parties added together (less the NI parties) don't have enough MP's to oust them or vote them down. Assuming the DUP play ball (and SF don't turn up) then the Tories have a workable majority and will crack on.
They were definitely right to call one. 25 points ahead in one poll about 7 weeks before the election. The whole thing collapsed when the campaign started. Corbyn - for all his faults - is clearly an excellent campaigner, whilst May has the outward personality of a robot, and a manifesto that reflected it.Anonymous. wrote:From March
People are jokes
can't blame her for calling an election with those figuresIn bad news for Jeremy Corbyn, the proportion of people who think he would make a better Prime Minister than Theresa May hits its lowest level ever this week, at 13%. With 51% of Brits believing the Conservative leader to be a superior choice, May's 38 point lead is also the highest it has ever been
I'm not suggestion they are not in a tenuous position but I cannot see them putting another GE to the public this year.JM2K6 wrote:That doesn't change anything about the lack of a mandate, and the fact that the Tories might have scrabbled together a coalition with a bunch of absolutely lunatics doesn't make their position any less tenuous.
It's my view as well.Mate, they were in a position of strength against an opponent busy shooting itself in the foot on every occasion, called a general election to hammer it home and have ended up having to go into coalition just to remain in power. That's not a mandate, that's "holy jesus we f**ked this up big time".
I mean, that's pretty much the consensus view on this across the political divide.
We did, and they literally won 56 more seats than Labour and had a bigger vote share which says that the country thought they are suitable to governwe literally just had a vote on the suitability of the Tories to govern
They might have won more seats than Labour but they didn't persuade enough of the population that they were fit to govern to get a majority. It doesn't show "the country thought they are suitable to govern" - that's nonsense. It showed that more people thought they were suitable than Labour, but vastly fewer than before and not enough to form an effective government on their own.slick wrote:It's my view as well.Mate, they were in a position of strength against an opponent busy shooting itself in the foot on every occasion, called a general election to hammer it home and have ended up having to go into coalition just to remain in power. That's not a mandate, that's "holy jesus we f**ked this up big time".
I mean, that's pretty much the consensus view on this across the political divide.
However, you point was this
We did, and they literally won 56 more seats than Labour and had a bigger vote share which says that the country thought they are suitable to governwe literally just had a vote on the suitability of the Tories to govern
It's called a coalition. Not new in democracy or necessarily a bad thing either.JM2K6 wrote: Literally "you cannot govern without help from another party" stuff
I'm well aware what it's called, what it represents, and what it means in the context of this discussion. Not least because I used it earlier in the thread.Sandstorm wrote:It's called a coalition. Not new in democracy or necessarily a bad thing either.JM2K6 wrote: Literally "you cannot govern without help from another party" stuff
Well alright thenJM2K6 wrote:I'm well aware what it's called, what it represents, and what it means in the context of this discussion. Not least because I used it earlier in the thread.Sandstorm wrote:It's called a coalition. Not new in democracy or necessarily a bad thing either.JM2K6 wrote: Literally "you cannot govern without help from another party" stuff
That's a bit misleading - more people, and a greater % of both voters and the electorate, supported them than before and indeed than had since 1983.JM2K6 wrote:It showed that more people thought they were suitable than Labour, but vastly fewer than before and not enough to form an effective government on their own.
A coalition involves the other party being in government - it would mean DUP MPs as ministers. I don't think there's any indication of that happening, is there?Sandstorm wrote:It's called a coalition. Not new in democracy or necessarily a bad thing either.JM2K6 wrote: Literally "you cannot govern without help from another party" stuff
The Conservative vote share increased from 2015. More people thought they were "suitable to govern".JM2K6 wrote:They might have won more seats than Labour but they didn't persuade enough of the population that they were fit to govern to get a majority. It doesn't show "the country thought they are suitable to govern" - that's nonsense. It showed that more people thought they were suitable than Labour, but vastly fewer than before and not enough to form an effective government on their own.slick wrote:It's my view as well.Mate, they were in a position of strength against an opponent busy shooting itself in the foot on every occasion, called a general election to hammer it home and have ended up having to go into coalition just to remain in power. That's not a mandate, that's "holy jesus we f**ked this up big time".
I mean, that's pretty much the consensus view on this across the political divide.
However, you point was this
We did, and they literally won 56 more seats than Labour and had a bigger vote share which says that the country thought they are suitable to governwe literally just had a vote on the suitability of the Tories to govern
Literally "you cannot govern without help from another party" stuff
Because alongside a larger population, the smaller parties were effectively absorbed back into the major ones.Mahoney wrote:That's a bit misleading - more people, and a greater % of both voters and the electorate, supported them than before and indeed than had since 1983.JM2K6 wrote:It showed that more people thought they were suitable than Labour, but vastly fewer than before and not enough to form an effective government on their own.
What was highly unusual was for the primary opposition and the governing party to both do so well in the same election.
JM2K6 wrote:They might have won more seats than Labour but they didn't persuade enough of the population that they were fit to govern to get a majority. It doesn't show "the country thought they are suitable to govern" - that's nonsense. It showed that more people thought they were suitable than Labour, but vastly fewer than before and not enough to form an effective government on their own.slick wrote:It's my view as well.Mate, they were in a position of strength against an opponent busy shooting itself in the foot on every occasion, called a general election to hammer it home and have ended up having to go into coalition just to remain in power. That's not a mandate, that's "holy jesus we f**ked this up big time".
I mean, that's pretty much the consensus view on this across the political divide.
However, you point was this
We did, and they literally won 56 more seats than Labour and had a bigger vote share which says that the country thought they are suitable to governwe literally just had a vote on the suitability of the Tories to govern
Literally "you cannot govern without help from another party" stuff
It's also misleading to say that not enough people voted for them to form a government when in fact governments have been formed on fewer votes in total and on percentage terms. The correct formulation is that not enough people in enough places voted for them to form a government.Mahoney wrote:That's a bit misleading - more people, and a greater % of both voters and the electorate, supported them than before and indeed than had since 1983.JM2K6 wrote:It showed that more people thought they were suitable than Labour, but vastly fewer than before and not enough to form an effective government on their own.
What was highly unusual was for the primary opposition and the governing party to both do so well in the same election.
If Labour had the seats Tories do and vice versa, Corbyn would just declare a govt and get on with ruling. May should do the same, regardless of parliamentry rules, etc.bimboman wrote: Are you calling all of them unmandated now?
Yes, let's reference other countries with different democratic systems and political terrain, that'll definitely clear things up.bimboman wrote:JM2K6 wrote:They might have won more seats than Labour but they didn't persuade enough of the population that they were fit to govern to get a majority. It doesn't show "the country thought they are suitable to govern" - that's nonsense. It showed that more people thought they were suitable than Labour, but vastly fewer than before and not enough to form an effective government on their own.slick wrote:It's my view as well.Mate, they were in a position of strength against an opponent busy shooting itself in the foot on every occasion, called a general election to hammer it home and have ended up having to go into coalition just to remain in power. That's not a mandate, that's "holy jesus we f**ked this up big time".
I mean, that's pretty much the consensus view on this across the political divide.
However, you point was this
We did, and they literally won 56 more seats than Labour and had a bigger vote share which says that the country thought they are suitable to governwe literally just had a vote on the suitability of the Tories to govern
Literally "you cannot govern without help from another party" stuff
How many countries globally are governed by coalitions ? Are you calling all of them unmandated now?
Merkel rules with a coalition. Mandate or not ?
Proportionally they got more support, too. In 2016 the Tories got 36.82% of votes cast; in 2017 that rose to 42.4%. Taking into account people who did not vote or spoilt their ballots, in 2015 the Tories got 24.45% of the electorate; in 2017, 29.13%.JM2K6 wrote:Because alongside a larger population, the smaller parties were effectively absorbed back into the major ones.Mahoney wrote:That's a bit misleading - more people, and a greater % of both voters and the electorate, supported them than before and indeed than had since 1983.JM2K6 wrote:It showed that more people thought they were suitable than Labour, but vastly fewer than before and not enough to form an effective government on their own.
What was highly unusual was for the primary opposition and the governing party to both do so well in the same election.
You're right in that I should have said "a smaller proportion than before".
Ah, I see what you're saying. Apologies, I did actually think it was a smaller proportion than before.Mahoney wrote:Proportionally they got more support, too. In 2016 the Tories got 36.82% of votes cast; in 2017 that rose to 42.4%. Taking into account people who did not vote or spoilt their ballots, in 2015 the Tories got 24.45% of the electorate; in 2017, 29.13%.JM2K6 wrote:Because alongside a larger population, the smaller parties were effectively absorbed back into the major ones.Mahoney wrote:That's a bit misleading - more people, and a greater % of both voters and the electorate, supported them than before and indeed than had since 1983.JM2K6 wrote:It showed that more people thought they were suitable than Labour, but vastly fewer than before and not enough to form an effective government on their own.
What was highly unusual was for the primary opposition and the governing party to both do so well in the same election.
You're right in that I should have said "a smaller proportion than before".
It's our electoral system that means more support translated into fewer seats.
Yes, let's reference other countries with different democratic systems and political terrain, that'll definitely clear things up.
You should definitely go argue with the Economist about this.bimboman wrote:Well it might clear up your understandings of mandates to govern.Yes, let's reference other countries with different democratic systems and political terrain, that'll definitely clear things up.
And when they called the election they expected their share of the vote to be so high it would be one of their best results in modern times.Mahoney wrote:Proportionally they got more support, too. In 2016 the Tories got 36.82% of votes cast; in 2017 that rose to 42.4%. Taking into account people who did not vote or spoilt their ballots, in 2015 the Tories got 24.45% of the electorate; in 2017, 29.13%.JM2K6 wrote:Because alongside a larger population, the smaller parties were effectively absorbed back into the major ones.Mahoney wrote:That's a bit misleading - more people, and a greater % of both voters and the electorate, supported them than before and indeed than had since 1983.JM2K6 wrote:It showed that more people thought they were suitable than Labour, but vastly fewer than before and not enough to form an effective government on their own.
What was highly unusual was for the primary opposition and the governing party to both do so well in the same election.
You're right in that I should have said "a smaller proportion than before".
It's our electoral system that means more support translated into fewer seats.
Corbin Bernsen would probably be a better candidate.Sandstorm wrote:Really? Well anyone who thinks Corbin can do a better job should get off Twitter and engage their brains.JM2K6 wrote:We don't vote in Prime Ministers in general elections. We vote for political parties. And the trust in the Tories to actually govern, particularly with May in charge, is near-zero.Sandstorm wrote:If there is, it'll be fcuking stupid! 3 different PMs in 18 months? Where the fudge are we? Burkina Faso?JM2K6 wrote:So why do so many political talking heads think there'll be another one before the end of the year, theo?
JM2K6 wrote:You should definitely go argue with the Economist about this.bimboman wrote:Well it might clear up your understandings of mandates to govern.Yes, let's reference other countries with different democratic systems and political terrain, that'll definitely clear things up.
It would have been if the Tories understood electioneering in 2017. They ballsed up a sure-fire win by not talking shit in the media and posting bollocks on Twitter. It's how you engage with people these days apparently.Anonymous. wrote: And when they called the election they expected their share of the vote to be so high it would be one of their best results in modern times.
JM2K6 wrote:You should definitely go argue with the Economist about this.bimboman wrote:Well it might clear up your understandings of mandates to govern.Yes, let's reference other countries with different democratic systems and political terrain, that'll definitely clear things up.
http://www.economist.com/node/16079734For now, however, neither Britain nor Mr Cameron has much choice. This is not the mandate he had hoped for: the Tories were once expected to stroll to victory and a comfortable majority. But it is the mandate he has got.
"click bait" you're a few minutes away from crying fake news, aren't you?bimboman wrote:The whole magazine or just the journo who wrote that click bait ?JM2K6 wrote:You should definitely go argue with the Economist about this.bimboman wrote:Well it might clear up your understandings of mandates to govern.Yes, let's reference other countries with different democratic systems and political terrain, that'll definitely clear things up.
Yes, we've had this argument before. The literal definition of "mandate" vs how it's used in terms of being unopposed and sweeping authority. The latter is the more common usage these days - blame the Yanks - and is certainly how it's being used in this discussion.Santa wrote:JM2K6 wrote:You should definitely go argue with the Economist about this.bimboman wrote:Well it might clear up your understandings of mandates to govern.Yes, let's reference other countries with different democratic systems and political terrain, that'll definitely clear things up.
From the economist in 2010
http://www.economist.com/node/16079734For now, however, neither Britain nor Mr Cameron has much choice. This is not the mandate he had hoped for: the Tories were once expected to stroll to victory and a comfortable majority. But it is the mandate he has got.
Mandate may be a slightly ambiguous term in this context.JM2K6 wrote:"click bait" you're a few minutes away from crying fake news, aren't you?bimboman wrote:The whole magazine or just the journo who wrote that click bait ?JM2K6 wrote:You should definitely go argue with the Economist about this.bimboman wrote:Well it might clear up your understandings of mandates to govern.Yes, let's reference other countries with different democratic systems and political terrain, that'll definitely clear things up.
May called this election because she felt there was too much opposition to her policies and plans from within her party and without; she also saw an opportunity to crush Labour. She wanted a mandate. But what happened was she lost what majority she had, has been forced into cutting a deal with the DUP, and any thoughts of a mandate are out the window.
click bait" you're a few minutes away from crying fake news, aren't you?
May called this election because she felt there was too much opposition to her policies and plans from within her party and without; she also saw an opportunity to crush Labour. She wanted a mandate. But what happened was she lost what majority she had, has been forced into cutting a deal with the DUP, and any thoughts of a mandate are out the window.