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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:11 pm 
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Miscegenation is really the best measure of the success of multiculturalism imo. If people date/marry/have kids outside of their race then integration is a corresponding byproduct.

Here in California I would say multiculturalism is successful for precisely the reason that there are loads of mixed race kids running about.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:13 pm 
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Smee wrote:
Miscegenation is really the best measure of the success of multiculturalism imo. If people date/marry/have kids outside of their race then integration is a corresponding byproduct.

Here in California I would say multiculturalism is successful for precisely the reason that there are loads of mixed race kids running about.


Why are mixed race kids an indicator of success? It might be an indicator of presence -not that you've actually defined what you mean by multiculturalism- but why does it indicate success?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:19 pm 
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Santa wrote:
Smee wrote:
Miscegenation is really the best measure of the success of multiculturalism imo. If people date/marry/have kids outside of their race then integration is a corresponding byproduct.

Here in California I would say multiculturalism is successful for precisely the reason that there are loads of mixed race kids running about.


Why are mixed race kids an indicator of success? It might be an indicator of presence -not that you've actually defined what you mean by multiculturalism- but why does it indicate success?


It is to me evidence that people are genuinely existing in the same space.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:21 pm 
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slick wrote:
Hawk97 wrote:
Something "progressive" liberals thought was a must-have and a defining characteristic of a place (I'm hesitant to say "nation")? I quite like the fact that I have Kiwi, Aussie, Polish, German and African friends without the need to label the practice of existing with them as "multi cultural".


Are they all white? Not trying to trick you, just asking.


The africans aren't, no.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:22 pm 
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Gazzamonster wrote:
cubby boi wrote:
Are these faces in the media actually talking about the right thing when they talk about culture? Should they actually be talking about religions?
It seems to me that religion is the reason that we will never be truly multicultural, integrated and respectful to each other, simply because these religious types put their religion above all else, and that religion teaches them to be exactly the opposite. Sure, the vast majority of Muslims won't be strapping a vest to themselves, but they still look at the way the rest of us live our lives in disdain, hold views such as homophobia etc which go against not only our culture but also our laws. They want to discriminate and segregate themselves. For example the VAST majority of Muslim woman would not step out with a non muslim man, never mind marry one.

So what's the solution to that?


Yeah nah....I'm not engaging with you.

Bye.


You've already spouted a load of worthless shit over this thread, why stop now?

I've no idea what's got you so bent out of shape though. Religions by their very essence are discriminating and a segregating measure.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:25 pm 
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cubby boi wrote:
Gazzamonster wrote:
cubby boi wrote:
Are these faces in the media actually talking about the right thing when they talk about culture? Should they actually be talking about religions?
It seems to me that religion is the reason that we will never be truly multicultural, integrated and respectful to each other, simply because these religious types put their religion above all else, and that religion teaches them to be exactly the opposite. Sure, the vast majority of Muslims won't be strapping a vest to themselves, but they still look at the way the rest of us live our lives in disdain, hold views such as homophobia etc which go against not only our culture but also our laws. They want to discriminate and segregate themselves. For example the VAST majority of Muslim woman would not step out with a non muslim man, never mind marry one.

So what's the solution to that?


Yeah nah....I'm not engaging with you.

Bye.


You've already spouted a load of worthless shit over this thread, why stop now?

I've no idea what's got you so bent out of shape though. Religions by their very essence are discriminating and a segregating measure.


Culture - Religion.....different things.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:26 pm 
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Smee wrote:
Santa wrote:
Smee wrote:
Miscegenation is really the best measure of the success of multiculturalism imo. If people date/marry/have kids outside of their race then integration is a corresponding byproduct.

Here in California I would say multiculturalism is successful for precisely the reason that there are loads of mixed race kids running about.


Why are mixed race kids an indicator of success? It might be an indicator of presence -not that you've actually defined what you mean by multiculturalism- but why does it indicate success?


It is to me evidence that people are genuinely existing in the same space.


Absolutely. Unfortunately I suspect that you are mainly referring to Afro americans as the minority. The Millions of middle eastern Muslims that we are dealing with here have strict rules against this. How will true integration ever be possible when your giving special protection for a cult like that?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:27 pm 
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Gazzamonster wrote:
cubby boi wrote:
Gazzamonster wrote:
cubby boi wrote:
Are these faces in the media actually talking about the right thing when they talk about culture? Should they actually be talking about religions?
It seems to me that religion is the reason that we will never be truly multicultural, integrated and respectful to each other, simply because these religious types put their religion above all else, and that religion teaches them to be exactly the opposite. Sure, the vast majority of Muslims won't be strapping a vest to themselves, but they still look at the way the rest of us live our lives in disdain, hold views such as homophobia etc which go against not only our culture but also our laws. They want to discriminate and segregate themselves. For example the VAST majority of Muslim woman would not step out with a non muslim man, never mind marry one.

So what's the solution to that?


Yeah nah....I'm not engaging with you.

Bye.


You've already spouted a load of worthless shit over this thread, why stop now?

I've no idea what's got you so bent out of shape though. Religions by their very essence are discriminating and a segregating measure.


Culture - Religion.....different things.


Correct not the same but the overlap is about 80% as one feeds the other


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:30 pm 
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Gazzamonster wrote:
cubby boi wrote:
Gazzamonster wrote:
cubby boi wrote:
Are these faces in the media actually talking about the right thing when they talk about culture? Should they actually be talking about religions?
It seems to me that religion is the reason that we will never be truly multicultural, integrated and respectful to each other, simply because these religious types put their religion above all else, and that religion teaches them to be exactly the opposite. Sure, the vast majority of Muslims won't be strapping a vest to themselves, but they still look at the way the rest of us live our lives in disdain, hold views such as homophobia etc which go against not only our culture but also our laws. They want to discriminate and segregate themselves. For example the VAST majority of Muslim woman would not step out with a non muslim man, never mind marry one.

So what's the solution to that?


Yeah nah....I'm not engaging with you.

Bye.


You've already spouted a load of worthless shit over this thread, why stop now?

I've no idea what's got you so bent out of shape though. Religions by their very essence are discriminating and a segregating measure.


Culture - Religion.....different things.


Yes, that was my point. We have no problem with other cultures. Hell we all want to travel the world and lap it up. It's the teachings of religions that are the real, discriminating issue.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:33 pm 
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cubby boi wrote:

Absolutely. Unfortunately I suspect that you are mainly referring to Afro americans as the minority. The Millions of middle eastern Muslims that we are dealing with here have strict rules against this. How will true integration ever be possible when your giving special protection for a cult like that?


Why don't you be honest here.

You started this thread as a Muslim bashing exercise. No more, no less.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:33 pm 
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nardol wrote:
Gazzamonster wrote:
cubby boi wrote:
Gazzamonster wrote:
cubby boi wrote:
Are these faces in the media actually talking about the right thing when they talk about culture? Should they actually be talking about religions?
It seems to me that religion is the reason that we will never be truly multicultural, integrated and respectful to each other, simply because these religious types put their religion above all else, and that religion teaches them to be exactly the opposite. Sure, the vast majority of Muslims won't be strapping a vest to themselves, but they still look at the way the rest of us live our lives in disdain, hold views such as homophobia etc which go against not only our culture but also our laws. They want to discriminate and segregate themselves. For example the VAST majority of Muslim woman would not step out with a non muslim man, never mind marry one.

So what's the solution to that?


Yeah nah....I'm not engaging with you.

Bye.


You've already spouted a load of worthless shit over this thread, why stop now?

I've no idea what's got you so bent out of shape though. Religions by their very essence are discriminating and a segregating measure.


Culture - Religion.....different things.


Correct not the same but the overlap is about 80% as one feeds the other


Yes - but not all cultures are built on fundamentalism. And even those that are have a large number who don't discriminate and segregate.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:34 pm 
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Bullettyme wrote:
cubby boi wrote:

Absolutely. Unfortunately I suspect that you are mainly referring to Afro americans as the minority. The Millions of middle eastern Muslims that we are dealing with here have strict rules against this. How will true integration ever be possible when your giving special protection for a cult like that?


Why don't you be honest here.

You started this thread as a Muslim bashing exercise. No more, no less.


BINGO :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:34 pm 
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Bullettyme wrote:
cubby boi wrote:

Absolutely. Unfortunately I suspect that you are mainly referring to Afro americans as the minority. The Millions of middle eastern Muslims that we are dealing with here have strict rules against this. How will true integration ever be possible when your giving special protection for a cult like that?


Why don't you be honest here.

You started this thread as a Muslim bashing exercise. No more, no less.


He's really trying hard to bring it round to that :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:57 pm 
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I'd tentatively define multiculturalism as being comfortable with the co-existence in a host country of fairly distinct cultures without requiring their integration beyond some high level shared requirements such as (in the UK) democratically elected government and the rule of law. I would say multiculturalism is relatively OK with voluntary ghettoisation; it takes a laissez-faire approach, for instance, to immigrants not learning the primary language of the host culture on the basis that it's really up to them whether they do or do not derive benefit from it.

I'd say part of it is the liberal assumption of the freedom of people to do what they want so long as they are not harming others, but with a less individual focus - the guest culture is seen as deserving the right to the freedom to operate its norms even if those norms restrict the freedom of individuals within the group in ways the host culture would not accept. This might be partly ignorance leading to generalisation (they all want to wear such and such a garment, right?) and partly cultural relativism; "who are we to say our values are better?" type thing.

It clearly can work - many a Chinatown and orthodox Jewish community can testify to that. I suspect that it rather depends on both the nature and size of the guest culture; my impression is that those strongly in favour of multiculturalism tend to see culture as a bit like cuisines, where the worst you can say of one is that you don't like the taste yourself and an adventurous person will get more pleasure the more of them there are. But cultures are also about how human beings behave to each other, and fairly frequently human beings behave pretty badly to each other.

One of the big questions is probably how far the guest culture really understands and respects the high level shared requirements the host culture expects of it; a good example in the UK would be how free a member of the guest culture is to abandon it and adopt different cultural norms should they want to. I suspect that long (as in centuries of) experience of the precariousness of living in a potentially hostile host culture may contribute to the success with which Chinese and Orthodox Jewish communities operate as quite distinct entities?

Obviously these things are on a spectrum, but I would see the opposite as a system that actively encourages integration - where positive action is taken to deter people of the same birth culture from only living in close proximity to each other, where they are expected to mix routinely with people from outside their birth culture, adopt the language, dress and many of the behaviours of that culture, and their birth culture is expected to be 'tamed' - reduced to the point where it is just some interestingly different holidays, food styles and stories.

I'd guess proponents of multiculturalism might well expect integration to happen naturally over a longer period of time as 2nd or 3rd generation members of the guest culture are unavoidably exposed to the other cultures around them.

Disclaimer - this is all purely amateur thinking aloud, and my use of the words "guest" and "host" is probably highly problematic.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:00 pm 
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Britain is multicultural in the main cities like London and Birmingham, which no longer have the impression of even being British, which I find quite sad. Sure, people from other countries are welcome (in small numbers), but would you really be comfortable in a Britain where less than 50% of the population are native Brits and the majority of women are wearing a burka?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:04 pm 
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A thread begun as a semantic question was never going to amount to much.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:08 pm 
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englishchief wrote:
Britain is multicultural in the main cities like London and Birmingham, which no longer have the impression of even being British, which I find quite sad. Sure, people from other countries are welcome (in small numbers), but would you really be comfortable in a Britain where less than 50% of the population are native Brits and the majority of women are wearing a burka?
:roll:


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm 
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englishchief wrote:
Britain is multicultural in the main cities like London and Birmingham, which no longer have the impression of even being British, which I find quite sad. Sure, people from other countries are welcome (in small numbers), but would you really be comfortable in a Britain where less than 50% of the population are native Brits and the majority of women are wearing a burka?


But are London and Birmingham multicultural? There seems to be virtually complete voluntary segregation in both.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:16 pm 
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Mahoney wrote:
I'd tentatively define multiculturalism as being comfortable with the co-existence in a host country of fairly distinct cultures without requiring their integration beyond some high level shared requirements such as (in the UK) democratically elected government and the rule of law. I would say multiculturalism is relatively OK with voluntary ghettoisation; it takes a laissez-faire approach, for instance, to immigrants not learning the primary language of the host culture on the basis that it's really up to them whether they do or do not derive benefit from it.

I'd say part of it is the liberal assumption of the freedom of people to do what they want so long as they are not harming others, but with a less individual focus - the guest culture is seen as deserving the right to the freedom to operate its norms even if those norms restrict the freedom of individuals within the group in ways the host culture would not accept. This might be partly ignorance leading to generalisation (they all want to wear such and such a garment, right?) and partly cultural relativism; "who are we to say our values are better?" type thing.

It clearly can work - many a Chinatown and orthodox Jewish community can testify to that. I suspect that it rather depends on both the nature and size of the guest culture; my impression is that those strongly in favour of multiculturalism tend to see culture as a bit like cuisines, where the worst you can say of one is that you don't like the taste yourself and an adventurous person will get more pleasure the more of them there are. But cultures are also about how human beings behave to each other, and fairly frequently human beings behave pretty badly to each other.

One of the big questions is probably how far the guest culture really understands and respects the high level shared requirements the host culture expects of it; a good example in the UK would be how free a member of the guest culture is to abandon it and adopt different cultural norms should they want to. I suspect that long (as in centuries of) experience of the precariousness of living in a potentially hostile host culture may contribute to the success with which Chinese and Orthodox Jewish communities operate as quite distinct entities?

Obviously these things are on a spectrum, but I would see the opposite as a system that actively encourages integration - where positive action is taken to deter people of the same birth culture from only living in close proximity to each other, where they are expected to mix routinely with people from outside their birth culture, adopt the language, dress and many of the behaviours of that culture, and their birth culture is expected to be 'tamed' - reduced to the point where it is just some interestingly different holidays, food styles and stories.

I'd guess proponents of multiculturalism might well expect integration to happen naturally over a longer period of time as 2nd or 3rd generation members of the guest culture are unavoidably exposed to the other cultures around them.

Disclaimer - this is all purely amateur thinking aloud, and my use of the words "guest" and "host" is probably highly problematic.


Nice.

I'd agree with most of that. You alluded to it a couple of times I think, but it seems to me that the main driving forces of problems or of "host" citizens rebelling against it, is numbers and pace. It's where I think we have got it very, very wrong.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:20 pm 
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cubby boi wrote:
englishchief wrote:
Britain is multicultural in the main cities like London and Birmingham, which no longer have the impression of even being British, which I find quite sad. Sure, people from other countries are welcome (in small numbers), but would you really be comfortable in a Britain where less than 50% of the population are native Brits and the majority of women are wearing a burka?


But are London and Birmingham multicultural? There seems to be virtually complete voluntary segregation in both.

I don't think that's particularly fair in many parts of London.

That said my girlfriend lives in Mile End, the two communities get on absolutely fine but do seem to have a habit of socialising in entirely different places. Have to say I think alcohol consumption (or lack of) is the major factor.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:22 pm 
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cubby boi wrote:
englishchief wrote:
Britain is multicultural in the main cities like London and Birmingham, which no longer have the impression of even being British, which I find quite sad. Sure, people from other countries are welcome (in small numbers), but would you really be comfortable in a Britain where less than 50% of the population are native Brits and the majority of women are wearing a burka?


But are London and Birmingham multicultural? There seems to be virtually complete voluntary segregation in both.


No I'd say (especially Birmingham) they are heading towards monoculturalism, with that culture being Islamic. London is more international.

Good on you for starting this thread. You're raising questions that lots of posters find uncomfortable to think about-hence the immature replies. It is statistically true that by 2070 the UK will be a Muslim majority country, and people just want to ignore this and think the problem (if you see that as a problem, which I do) will go away.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:26 pm 
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englishchief wrote:
cubby boi wrote:
englishchief wrote:
Britain is multicultural in the main cities like London and Birmingham, which no longer have the impression of even being British, which I find quite sad. Sure, people from other countries are welcome (in small numbers), but would you really be comfortable in a Britain where less than 50% of the population are native Brits and the majority of women are wearing a burka?


But are London and Birmingham multicultural? There seems to be virtually complete voluntary segregation in both.


No I'd say (especially Birmingham) they are heading towards monoculturalism, with that culture being Islamic. London is more international.

Good on you for starting this thread. You're raising questions that lots of posters find uncomfortable to think about-hence the immature replies. It is statistically true that by 2070 the UK will be a Muslim majority country, and people just want to ignore this and think the problem (if you see that as a problem, which I do) will go away.


No, that's not how demographics work: https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck ... ty-by-2050

And Birmingham is 21.8% Muslim, 46.1% Christian, and 19.3% no religion.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:30 pm 
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croyals wrote:
cubby boi wrote:
englishchief wrote:
Britain is multicultural in the main cities like London and Birmingham, which no longer have the impression of even being British, which I find quite sad. Sure, people from other countries are welcome (in small numbers), but would you really be comfortable in a Britain where less than 50% of the population are native Brits and the majority of women are wearing a burka?


But are London and Birmingham multicultural? There seems to be virtually complete voluntary segregation in both.

I don't think that's particularly fair in many parts of London.

That said my girlfriend lives in Mile End, the two communities get on absolutely fine but do seem to have a habit of socialising in entirely different places. Have to say I think alcohol consumption (or lack of) is the major factor.


That's the thing though, people live in mixed areas, mix happily at work and in school time but away from places like that they don't. Look at any school at kicking out time and it's groups of white kids and groups of black kids, you very rarely see mixed groups. Look at pubs or groups in the park at weekends and there is very little mixing.

No one is to blame, it's just human I guess.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:40 pm 
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slick wrote:
croyals wrote:
cubby boi wrote:
englishchief wrote:
Britain is multicultural in the main cities like London and Birmingham, which no longer have the impression of even being British, which I find quite sad. Sure, people from other countries are welcome (in small numbers), but would you really be comfortable in a Britain where less than 50% of the population are native Brits and the majority of women are wearing a burka?


But are London and Birmingham multicultural? There seems to be virtually complete voluntary segregation in both.

I don't think that's particularly fair in many parts of London.

That said my girlfriend lives in Mile End, the two communities get on absolutely fine but do seem to have a habit of socialising in entirely different places. Have to say I think alcohol consumption (or lack of) is the major factor.


That's the thing though, people live in mixed areas, mix happily at work and in school time but away from places like that they don't. Look at any school at kicking out time and it's groups of white kids and groups of black kids, you very rarely see mixed groups. Look at pubs or groups in the park at weekends and there is very little mixing.

No one is to blame, it's just human I guess.


I got home today walking past loads of multi-racial groups of kids mixing in the way you claim doesn't really happen.

The real segregation in London is the same as ever: class. I went to a private school with black, asian, chinese kids who I had loads more in common with than I would have done with white kids in a council block.

The only working class people I know are people I'm related to. I'm not proud of that, but its a fact.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:41 pm 
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Welsh lad was the guy playing carmageddon in front of the mosque


How long has chubbs been offline?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:50 pm 
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FactCheck wouldn’t bet on the British Muslim population ever topping 10 per cent, let alone 50 per cent.


That's odd considering they predict Britain will be 8.1% muslim by 2030 and that the fertility rate of native women is not enough to sustain the population.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:52 pm 
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London_Lurker wrote:
slick wrote:
croyals wrote:
cubby boi wrote:
englishchief wrote:
Britain is multicultural in the main cities like London and Birmingham, which no longer have the impression of even being British, which I find quite sad. Sure, people from other countries are welcome (in small numbers), but would you really be comfortable in a Britain where less than 50% of the population are native Brits and the majority of women are wearing a burka?


But are London and Birmingham multicultural? There seems to be virtually complete voluntary segregation in both.

I don't think that's particularly fair in many parts of London.

That said my girlfriend lives in Mile End, the two communities get on absolutely fine but do seem to have a habit of socialising in entirely different places. Have to say I think alcohol consumption (or lack of) is the major factor.


That's the thing though, people live in mixed areas, mix happily at work and in school time but away from places like that they don't. Look at any school at kicking out time and it's groups of white kids and groups of black kids, you very rarely see mixed groups. Look at pubs or groups in the park at weekends and there is very little mixing.

No one is to blame, it's just human I guess.


I got home today walking past loads of multi-racial groups of kids mixing in the way you claim doesn't really happen.

The real segregation in London is the same as ever: class. I went to a private school with black, asian, chinese kids who I had loads more in common with than I would have done with white kids in a council block.

The only working class people I know are people I'm related to. I'm not proud of that, but its a fact.


Different experiences then I suppose. When I was in London my group of mates cut across every social class.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:55 pm 
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slick wrote:
London_Lurker wrote:

I got home today walking past loads of multi-racial groups of kids mixing in the way you claim doesn't really happen.

The real segregation in London is the same as ever: class. I went to a private school with black, asian, chinese kids who I had loads more in common with than I would have done with white kids in a council block.

The only working class people I know are people I'm related to. I'm not proud of that, but its a fact.


Different experiences then I suppose. When I was in London my group of mates cut across every social class.


But not race?

EDIT: Not even from school?


Last edited by London_Lurker on Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:55 pm 
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fatcat wrote:
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FactCheck wouldn’t bet on the British Muslim population ever topping 10 per cent, let alone 50 per cent.


That's odd considering they predict Britain will be 8.1% muslim by 2030 and that the fertility rate of native women is not enough to sustain the population.


But they also say Muslim fertility rates will fall.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:57 pm 
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JM2K6 wrote:
fatcat wrote:
Quote:
FactCheck wouldn’t bet on the British Muslim population ever topping 10 per cent, let alone 50 per cent.


That's odd considering they predict Britain will be 8.1% muslim by 2030 and that the fertility rate of native women is not enough to sustain the population.


But they also say Muslim fertility rates will fall.


Yes but they're still predicting it to be 2.5 by 2030 - enough to grow their population.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:58 pm 
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London_Lurker wrote:
slick wrote:
London_Lurker wrote:

I got home today walking past loads of multi-racial groups of kids mixing in the way you claim doesn't really happen.

The real segregation in London is the same as ever: class. I went to a private school with black, asian, chinese kids who I had loads more in common with than I would have done with white kids in a council block.

The only working class people I know are people I'm related to. I'm not proud of that, but its a fact.


Different experiences then I suppose. When I was in London my group of mates cut across every social class.


But not race?


One black guy in our group. Proper working class Londoner he was.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:59 pm 
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cubby boi wrote:
Smee wrote:
Santa wrote:
Smee wrote:
Miscegenation is really the best measure of the success of multiculturalism imo. If people date/marry/have kids outside of their race then integration is a corresponding byproduct.

Here in California I would say multiculturalism is successful for precisely the reason that there are loads of mixed race kids running about.


Why are mixed race kids an indicator of success? It might be an indicator of presence -not that you've actually defined what you mean by multiculturalism- but why does it indicate success?


It is to me evidence that people are genuinely existing in the same space.


Absolutely. Unfortunately I suspect that you are mainly referring to Afro americans as the minority. The Millions of middle eastern Muslims that we are dealing with here have strict rules against this. How will true integration ever be possible when your giving special protection for a cult like that?


In the circles that I run its Chinese-white and Mexican-white households.......for instance my daughters two best friends are half Chinese, half white.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:01 pm 
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slick wrote:
London_Lurker wrote:
slick wrote:
London_Lurker wrote:

I got home today walking past loads of multi-racial groups of kids mixing in the way you claim doesn't really happen.

The real segregation in London is the same as ever: class. I went to a private school with black, asian, chinese kids who I had loads more in common with than I would have done with white kids in a council block.

The only working class people I know are people I'm related to. I'm not proud of that, but its a fact.


Different experiences then I suppose. When I was in London my group of mates cut across every social class.


But not race?


One black guy in our group. Proper working class Londoner he was.


Good for him. As a Londoner I'd say social segregation is way worse than racial segregation. The amount of money people are prepared to pay to either go private or move to a good comp is unreal.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:02 pm 
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JM2K6 wrote:
fatcat wrote:
Quote:
FactCheck wouldn’t bet on the British Muslim population ever topping 10 per cent, let alone 50 per cent.


That's odd considering they predict Britain will be 8.1% muslim by 2030 and that the fertility rate of native women is not enough to sustain the population.


But they also say Muslim fertility rates will fall.



Convieniant.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:02 pm 
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fatcat wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
fatcat wrote:
Quote:
FactCheck wouldn’t bet on the British Muslim population ever topping 10 per cent, let alone 50 per cent.


That's odd considering they predict Britain will be 8.1% muslim by 2030 and that the fertility rate of native women is not enough to sustain the population.


But they also say Muslim fertility rates will fall.


Yes but they're still predicting it to be 2.5 by 2030 - enough to grow their population.


2.5 vs 1.8 for non-Muslims. Add in the disagreement over total fertility rate being over-estimated thanks to the nature of fresh immigrants having kids soon after arriving... it's clear they think it'll be anything to worry about.

We're still a long, long, long way from majority Muslim population, though.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:03 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
fatcat wrote:
Quote:
FactCheck wouldn’t bet on the British Muslim population ever topping 10 per cent, let alone 50 per cent.


That's odd considering they predict Britain will be 8.1% muslim by 2030 and that the fertility rate of native women is not enough to sustain the population.


But they also say Muslim fertility rates will fall.


Convieniant.


fatcat at least bothered to read the article. It's not an unsupported claim.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:05 pm 
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London_Lurker wrote:
slick wrote:
croyals wrote:
cubby boi wrote:
englishchief wrote:
Britain is multicultural in the main cities like London and Birmingham, which no longer have the impression of even being British, which I find quite sad. Sure, people from other countries are welcome (in small numbers), but would you really be comfortable in a Britain where less than 50% of the population are native Brits and the majority of women are wearing a burka?


But are London and Birmingham multicultural? There seems to be virtually complete voluntary segregation in both.

I don't think that's particularly fair in many parts of London.

That said my girlfriend lives in Mile End, the two communities get on absolutely fine but do seem to have a habit of socialising in entirely different places. Have to say I think alcohol consumption (or lack of) is the major factor.


That's the thing though, people live in mixed areas, mix happily at work and in school time but away from places like that they don't. Look at any school at kicking out time and it's groups of white kids and groups of black kids, you very rarely see mixed groups. Look at pubs or groups in the park at weekends and there is very little mixing.

No one is to blame, it's just human I guess.


I got home today walking past loads of multi-racial groups of kids mixing in the way you claim doesn't really happen.

The real segregation in London is the same as ever: class. I went to a private school with black, asian, chinese kids who I had loads more in common with than I would have done with white kids in a council block.

The only working class people I know are people I'm related to. I'm not proud of that, but its a fact.

Pretty much the opposite for me (in Wycombe, a town with roughly 20% Muslim population, and large class divides). Social groups were almost always formed based on race, not class, although everyone generally got on well with each other regardless of each.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:11 pm 
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JM2K6 wrote:
fatcat wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
fatcat wrote:
Quote:
FactCheck wouldn’t bet on the British Muslim population ever topping 10 per cent, let alone 50 per cent.


That's odd considering they predict Britain will be 8.1% muslim by 2030 and that the fertility rate of native women is not enough to sustain the population.


But they also say Muslim fertility rates will fall.


Yes but they're still predicting it to be 2.5 by 2030 - enough to grow their population.


2.5 vs 1.8 for non-Muslims. Add in the disagreement over total fertility rate being over-estimated thanks to the nature of fresh immigrants having kids soon after arriving... it's clear they think it'll be anything to worry about.

We're still a long, long, long way from majority Muslim population, though.



i.e. growing a population vs shrinking a population


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:23 pm 
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fatcat wrote:
i.e. growing a population vs shrinking a population


Yes. They're factoring in the bit about over-estimation in their final suggestion.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:34 pm 
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JM2K6 wrote:
fatcat wrote:
i.e. growing a population vs shrinking a population


Yes. They're factoring in the bit about over-estimation in their final suggestion.


'Some demographers' think there's an over-estimation. Some demographers.

They also appear to think that because fertility rates in Muslim countries are declining then it stands to reason that the same will happen in non-muslim majority countries. Their reporting seems somewhat biased to me.


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