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Seems reasonable behaviour.DragsterDriver wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 8:37 pmFrom googling it sounds like he likes resting his chopper on female stars when they’re having their make up done!
Bob Dylan accused of sexually abusing a 12-year-old in 1965
A lawsuit, filed Friday, alleges the Nobel laureate plied a girl with drugs and alcohol and abused her over six weeks in 1965
Bob Dylan in 1965.
Bob Dylan in 1965. Photograph: Getty Images
Adrian Horton
@adrian_horton
Mon 16 Aug 2021 22.00 BST
A new lawsuit alleges that Bob Dylan, the Nobel-winning folk singer-songwriter, plied a 12-year-old girl with drugs and alcohol before sexually abusing her in 1965.
The lawsuit alleges that the Times They Are A-Changin’ singer “befriended and established an emotional connection with the plaintiff”, identified in Manhattan supreme court papers, obtained by the Guardian, only as “JC” and groomed her over the course of six weeks in April and May 1965.
The suit, filed late Friday on behalf of JC, now a 68-year-old woman living in Greenwich, Connecticut, alleges that Dylan, then 23 or 24 years old, “exploited his status as a musician by grooming JC to gain her trust and to obtain control over her as part of his plan to sexually molest and abuse” her.
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According to the complaint, Dylan established a “connection” with JC to “lower her inhibitions with the object of sexually abusing her, which he did, coupled with the provision of drugs, alcohol and threats of physical violence, leaving her emotionally scarred and psychologically damaged to this day”.
The suit alleges that Dylan, given name Robert Allen Zimmerman, abused the plaintiff multiple times, with some incidents taking place at the famed Chelsea hotel in Manhattan. According to the complaint, the emotional effects of the abuse on JC included depression, humiliation and anxiety that “are of a permanent and lasting natures and have incapacitated plaintiff from attending her regular activities”.
JC is seeking unspecified damages and a jury trial for allegations of assault, battery, false imprisonment and infliction of emotional distress whose aftermath has led her to seek medical treatment on multiple occasions.
A spokesman for Dylan, now 80, told the Guardian on Monday that “the 56-year-old claim is untrue and will be vigorously defended”.
The lawsuit comes on the final day of the New York State’s Child Victim Act look-back window, which closed Saturday, 14 August. The measure had offered reprieve for adults time-barred from filing civil suits for abuse suffered as children.
Just last month, a Manhattan supreme court judge ruled in Dylan’s favor in an unrelated lawsuit over profits from the $300m sale of his song catalogue last year to Universal Music.
In the US, Rainn offers support on 800-656-4673. In the UK, Rape Crisis offers support for rape and sexual abuse on 0808 802 9999. In Australia, support is available at 1800Respect (1800 737 732). Other international helplines can be found at ibiblio.org/rcip/internl.html
Totally agree. Unless some witnesses come forward or the accuser is caught out in a lie or there was evidence of a cover-up it's hard to assess the truth of anything like that.
Positively 4th Grade?
Lives outside Mallow when not touring afaik.Duff Paddy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:58 pm Nah Donovan could sing. Think he lived in Ireland for a while
FFS.eldanielfire wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:46 pm Seems the accuser didn't do their research. The claims of being kept for 3 weeks and drugged and abused in New York are apparently when Dylan was in England and filmed as part of a documentary.
Entirely my own fault as well, dammit.
I can't remember who it was, but when the #metoo thing was kicking off a well known old rocker stated that in his day, girls were literally forming lines to have sex with them, and they were mostly out of their heads on drink or drugs. I am frankly unsure how he got away with no repercussions when he said that anyone of his era saying they had never slept with anyone underage was lying. Partly because a lot of the time they were in no state of mind to know, and partly because no one really cared.eldanielfire wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:22 amTotally agree. Unless some witnesses come forward or the accuser is caught out in a lie or there was evidence of a cover-up it's hard to assess the truth of anything like that.
The names of many rockers have been posted on this thread and in plenty of places online.Edinburgh01 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 2:16 pmI can't remember who it was, but when the #metoo thing was kicking off a well known old rocker stated that in his day, girls were literally forming lines to have sex with them, and they were mostly out of their heads on drink or drugs. I am frankly unsure how he got away with no repercussions when he said that anyone of his era saying they had never slept with anyone underage was lying. Partly because a lot of the time they were in no state of mind to know, and partly because no one really cared.eldanielfire wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:22 amTotally agree. Unless some witnesses come forward or the accuser is caught out in a lie or there was evidence of a cover-up it's hard to assess the truth of anything like that.
Different times, and for evidence of that, imagine what would happen if the Wyman - Smith events happened now.
I'm shocked that more people don't realise that these things have always been true.eldanielfire wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 9:58 am Sadly there seems to be more damage to the #metoo movement with the story coming out that the Time's Up Campaign's CEO was protecting Andrew Cuomo and other shit. The excuse appears to be "we don't want to appear political" but the whole point of the movement was to support women who are victims against powerful men. It all seems to be based on political partisanship, with Time's Up appearing to be an organisation who are there not to support women who can't be heard, but to support Democrats:
I read a while ago about the 'Dark Triad personality' in psychology. It basically means that commonly there are people who join in and will weaponism any virtue or victimhood to attack people or cynically gain something for themselves.
I think part of the issue is we live in a culture that fetishizes victimhood and victim idealogy hugely. I said years ago a big flaw with #metoo was the concept of "all women must be believed" rather than "All women must get their credible accusations seriously investigated and no one how power be allowed to prevent or block it".Rowdy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:29 amI'm shocked that more people don't realise that these things have always been true.eldanielfire wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 9:58 am Sadly there seems to be more damage to the #metoo movement with the story coming out that the Time's Up Campaign's CEO was protecting Andrew Cuomo and other shit. The excuse appears to be "we don't want to appear political" but the whole point of the movement was to support women who are victims against powerful men. It all seems to be based on political partisanship, with Time's Up appearing to be an organisation who are there not to support women who can't be heard, but to support Democrats:
I read a while ago about the 'Dark Triad personality' in psychology. It basically means that commonly there are people who join in and will weaponism any virtue or victimhood to attack people or cynically gain something for themselves.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/artis ... ing-boots/
R Kelly’s guilty verdict will have old rockers quaking in their boots
The verdict spells the end of the music industry’s decades of silent protection for the abusive male ‘genius’ – of which there are many more
NEIL MCCORMICK
MUSIC CRITIC
28 September 2021 • 1:50pm
Neil McCormick
Since R Kelly's verdict, the music industry will never be the same again
Following R Kelly's verdict, the music industry will never be the same again
RKelly’s conviction should send a shudder down the spine of the music business … if the business has a spine. I believe it is a watershed moment, when the #MeToo movement finally lands a telling blow on an industry and a culture that has long felt immune to moral censure.
A huge contemporary pop superstar has been found guilty in an American court of law of essentially using his fame, popularity and wealth to abuse young and vulnerable women and men who started out as fans and ended up as victims. The conviction may have been framed in the anti-organised crime legal terminology of racketeering, but the testimony heard in court shone a penetrating and unflattering spotlight on showbusiness itself.
Kelly’s conviction will send ominous reverberations through the whole music business star system, where famous performers (typically male) have exploited fans (typically star-dazed young women characterised as groupies) with casual impunity, protected by the hallowed reverence accorded to the famous, the willingness and availability of many victims, the complicity of self-serving entourages, and the apparent unwillingness of fans to believe the worst of their idols, or else to treat them as beyond ordinary reckoning. A lot of old rockers and veteran pop stars are likely to be getting a bit twitchy in the light of this verdict and wondering what the public appetite might be for examining hedonistic behaviour of the past.
Not that R Kelly was a typical pop star. He was an extreme sexual predator and abuser, with paedophilic inclinations. Court testimony spelled this graphically out, but rumours and allegations about Kelly have bubbled throughout his three-decade long career. They say there is no smoke without fire, but by the time Kelly was finally brought to trial, that fire was blazing like an inferno in the wake of an underage sex video scandal in 2002 (Kelly denied the man in the video was him), a (failed) prosecution for possession of child pornography in 2008, and several high profile investigative articles and documentaries, including the BBC 3’s R Kelly: Sex, Girls and Videotapes in 2018 and Lifetime’s six part series Surviving R Kelly in 2019.
During the run up to trial, Kelly’s own defence finally conceded his long-rumoured marriage to his teenage protégé Aaliyah in 1994, when she was 15 and Kelly was 27. Yet the truth of that particular story had been established by US music magazine Vibe back in January 1995, when they published a copy of the disputed marriage certificate (falsely registering Aaliyah’s age as 18). It failed to put a dent in Kelly’s career at all. Indeed, it may have added to his public allure as contemporary R’n’B’s most seductive and salacious soul lothario, a multiple award winning, multi-million selling master of an explicitly erotic vein of R’n’B that veers perilously between porn and corn.
Placeholder image for youtube video: ujev4YZaVp8
Kelly’s own music was not held as evidence against him in court, but it is hard not to conclude that he has been hiding in plain sight. He wrote and produced the song Age Ain’t Nothin’ But A Number for Aliyaah when she was under the legal age of consent. Other unsubtle Kelly tracks include Sex Me, Sex Planet, Crazy Sex and Marry the P****. To quote just one of Kelly’s own lyrics about his perceived irresistible sexual allure, from 2017’s I’m a Flirt: “The moral of this story is cuff your b**** / Cause I’m black, handsome, I sing plus I’m rich.”
However, he is still probably best known in this country for aspirational gospel-tinged anthem I Believe I Can Fly, a number one 1996 hit from the soundtrack of animated kids basketball movie Space Jam. How are fans going to feel about watching that with their young ones now? Like Michael Jackson’s music, Kelly’s songs have been shifted into an ambiguous space, tainted by association. Some fans will continue to listen to Kelly for what his music represents in their personal memories, but I expect that he will become persona non grata on radio stations and in sync deals.
But that is the least of the music industry’s worries. There may be some attempt to portray Kelly as a criminal aberration, akin to such disgraced former stars as Gary Glitter and Phil Spector. But Kelly is the most famous living pop star ever to be taken down so unambiguously by the justice system for a type of behaviour rumoured to be rife throughout pop history. According to court testimony, behind the scenes Kelly used the “genius” defence for his own moral turpitude. He apparently compared himself to Jerry Lee Lewis, who’s own career survived (albeit barely) a scandal following his marriage to his 13-year-old cousin Myra in 1957. “He’s a genius, I’m a genius,” Kelly is reported to have said. “We should be allowed to do whatever we want.”
A sketch of R Kelly as he listens to the verdict on Monday 27 September
A sketch of R Kelly as he listens to the verdict on Monday 27 September CREDIT: AP
So should they? This is a question that the #MeToo movement has forced the music industry and music lovers alike to address. To throw just a few potential historic scandals into the spotlight, Elvis Presley dated future wife Priscilla when she was 14 and lived with her when she turned 17; teenage groupie Lori Maddox alleged that David Bowie took her virginity at 14; Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin was alleged by Maddox (again) to have begun an affair with her when she was only 15; Iggy Pop boasted of sleeping with Maddox’s friend Sable Starr “when she was 13” on a 1996 album Naughty Little Doggy; and in 1975 Steven Tyler of Aerosmith persuaded the mother of his 16-year-old girlfriend Julia Holcomb to sign over guardianship of her daughter so that they could travel interstate without fear of arrest. In Aerosmith’s 1997 autobiography, Tyler is quoted as saying “(She) lost her childhood. I lost my mind.”
Those are all well known rock and roll stories, but who doubts that they represent just the tip of a particular cultural iceberg? As Roger Taylor of Queen said about his seventies rock stardom in a recent Telegraph interview: “It was part of the job to have an outrageously decadent good time. And we certainly had our share. I don’t think we were the worst or the most extreme, but yeah, we were close. Boy you wouldn’t get away with any of that stuff now. More’s the pity.” Of course, Taylor wasn’t referring to the abuse of underage girls, but the implications are still troubling.
Issues of what kind of behaviour a contemporary pop star can or should get away with may be tested again if multiple allegations against shock rocker Marilyn Manson ever reach court. At least 15 women (including his actor ex-girlfriend Evan Rachel Wood) have made accusations of abuse or assault. A California Court dismissed a rape allegation against him last week saying it did not reach evidential threshold, but it has since been refiled.
Gary Glitter in court in Vietnam in 2006
Gary Glitter in court in Vietnam in 2006 CREDIT: Julian Abram Wainwright
And perhaps the law courts really are the only place now to test the limits of acceptable behaviour, when the febrile atmosphere of social media can make debate dangerously heated in public forums, and reputations can be destroyed by allegation and counter-allegation. Should we shine a light back on the actions of the past and judge stars by the moral standards of today? Or will public opinion prefer to draw a veil, move on and perhaps more rigorously police the (mis)behaviour of today’s artists (as we saw in the case of rock star Ryan Adams, who was effectively “cancelled” for his predatory sexual behaviour towards young women in 2019, although the FBI decided there was no criminal case to answer?)
In the fall out from the R Kelly conviction, questions will surely be asked about how his fame protected him, and in what ways the industry and our whole pop culture was complicit. And what are we all going to do to stop this happening over and over again? The days of sex, drugs and rock and roll decadence being a badge of swaggering pride in the music business are surely coming to an end.
I've never understood this sort of thinking. Do people like music because they think whoever made it is a real swell fella?eldanielfire wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:20 pm How are fans going to feel about watching that with their young ones now? Like Michael Jackson’s music, Kelly’s songs have been shifted into an ambiguous space, tainted by association. Some fans will continue to listen to Kelly for what his music represents in their personal memories, but I expect that he will become persona non grata on radio stations and in sync deals.
It's weird, but emotionally it makes sense we don't like to touch stuff nasty, vile people have tainted. Child peado's have the most extreme reaction, and for good reason.fonzeee wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:55 pmI've never understood this sort of thinking. Do people like music because they think whoever made it is a real swell fella?eldanielfire wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:20 pm How are fans going to feel about watching that with their young ones now? Like Michael Jackson’s music, Kelly’s songs have been shifted into an ambiguous space, tainted by association. Some fans will continue to listen to Kelly for what his music represents in their personal memories, but I expect that he will become persona non grata on radio stations and in sync deals.
Ted Nugent has been accused of some very unsavory things, but when the riff for Cat Scratch Fever comes on, I'm banging my head, period.
You can't understand why people may not enjoy engaging with artwork that was produced by a convicted paedophile? FFs, what's wrong with you?fonzeee wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:55 pmI've never understood this sort of thinking. Do people like music because they think whoever made it is a real swell fella?eldanielfire wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:20 pm How are fans going to feel about watching that with their young ones now? Like Michael Jackson’s music, Kelly’s songs have been shifted into an ambiguous space, tainted by association. Some fans will continue to listen to Kelly for what his music represents in their personal memories, but I expect that he will become persona non grata on radio stations and in sync deals.
Ted Nugent has been accused of some very unsavory things, but when the riff for Cat Scratch Fever comes on, I'm banging my head, period.
He's a Republican.Ali's Choice wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:04 pmYou can't understand why people may not enjoy engaging with artwork that was produced by a convicted paedophile? FFs, what's wrong with you?fonzeee wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:55 pmI've never understood this sort of thinking. Do people like music because they think whoever made it is a real swell fella?eldanielfire wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:20 pm How are fans going to feel about watching that with their young ones now? Like Michael Jackson’s music, Kelly’s songs have been shifted into an ambiguous space, tainted by association. Some fans will continue to listen to Kelly for what his music represents in their personal memories, but I expect that he will become persona non grata on radio stations and in sync deals.
Ted Nugent has been accused of some very unsavory things, but when the riff for Cat Scratch Fever comes on, I'm banging my head, period.
Does it sound different now? It is literally the exact same thing you liked before.Ali's Choice wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:04 pmYou can't understand why people may not enjoy engaging with artwork that was produced by a convicted paedophile? FFs, what's wrong with you?fonzeee wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:55 pmI've never understood this sort of thinking. Do people like music because they think whoever made it is a real swell fella?eldanielfire wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:20 pm How are fans going to feel about watching that with their young ones now? Like Michael Jackson’s music, Kelly’s songs have been shifted into an ambiguous space, tainted by association. Some fans will continue to listen to Kelly for what his music represents in their personal memories, but I expect that he will become persona non grata on radio stations and in sync deals.
Ted Nugent has been accused of some very unsavory things, but when the riff for Cat Scratch Fever comes on, I'm banging my head, period.
Wrong, but good try.jdogscoop wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:13 pmHe's a Republican.Ali's Choice wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:04 pmYou can't understand why people may not enjoy engaging with artwork that was produced by a convicted paedophile? FFs, what's wrong with you?fonzeee wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:55 pmI've never understood this sort of thinking. Do people like music because they think whoever made it is a real swell fella?eldanielfire wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:20 pm How are fans going to feel about watching that with their young ones now? Like Michael Jackson’s music, Kelly’s songs have been shifted into an ambiguous space, tainted by association. Some fans will continue to listen to Kelly for what his music represents in their personal memories, but I expect that he will become persona non grata on radio stations and in sync deals.
Ted Nugent has been accused of some very unsavory things, but when the riff for Cat Scratch Fever comes on, I'm banging my head, period.
fonzeee wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:16 pmWrong, but good try.jdogscoop wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:13 pmHe's a Republican.Ali's Choice wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:04 pmYou can't understand why people may not enjoy engaging with artwork that was produced by a convicted paedophile? FFs, what's wrong with you?fonzeee wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:55 pmI've never understood this sort of thinking. Do people like music because they think whoever made it is a real swell fella?eldanielfire wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:20 pm How are fans going to feel about watching that with their young ones now? Like Michael Jackson’s music, Kelly’s songs have been shifted into an ambiguous space, tainted by association. Some fans will continue to listen to Kelly for what his music represents in their personal memories, but I expect that he will become persona non grata on radio stations and in sync deals.
Ted Nugent has been accused of some very unsavory things, but when the riff for Cat Scratch Fever comes on, I'm banging my head, period.
When I believed in democracy, I voted Democrat.
Experience of music of the sort I'm referring to requires direct engagement with the work itself, necessarily rendering everything beyond it moot. Since everything you do has been about playing to the crowd since day 1, I do not expect you to get this.Ali's Choice wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:18 pmFair to say you're the Joe Manchin of Democrat posters?
fonzeee wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:43 pmExperience of music of the sort I'm referring to requires direct engagement with the work itself, necessarily rendering everything beyond it moot. Since everything you do has been about playing to the crowd since day 1, I do not expect you to get this.Ali's Choice wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:18 pmFair to say you're the Joe Manchin of Democrat posters?
Music is a sensual experience -- it is too valuable and unique to be anything less. If you are actually incapable of understanding this, I really just pity you, no matter how annoying you might be.
Yes, I understand that emotionally crippled people like you who find kissing people hello "rape-y" (seriously one of the saddest posts in recorded history) want to avoid the opprobrium of other emotionally crippled weirdos that think listening to music is about making an imaginary moral statement in favor of guy who made it. I'm talking about people who listen to music to listen to music.Ali's Choice wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:48 pmfonzeee wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:43 pmExperience of music of the sort I'm referring to requires direct engagement with the work itself, necessarily rendering everything beyond it moot. Since everything you do has been about playing to the crowd since day 1, I do not expect you to get this.Ali's Choice wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:18 pmFair to say you're the Joe Manchin of Democrat posters?
Music is a sensual experience -- it is too valuable and unique to be anything less. If you are actually incapable of understanding this, I really just pity you, no matter how annoying you might be.
Weird post. I'm happy for you to have "sensual experiences" with whatever music you like. I was commenting on your self-confessed inability to understand why people may not want to engage with artwork produced by convicted paedophiles and sexual predators.
