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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:14 am 
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DonBillydeParis wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
Laurent wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMkgznth17U

daniel :lol:

such a thick irish accent


I'm trying to place which region of France that accent is from?


Brennan family lives in Toulouse northern suburbs... Obviously there's something in their culture that directed them towards a certain type of business.

Image

My sister in law lives a few hundred meters away from Brennan's.


That looks every bit as awful as several thousand other 'pubs' in France.


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:16 am 
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Just realized what's at stake in the final for next year.

Given that Australia will beat Argentina and Ireland will likely beat Georgia, the groups next year look like this:

GROUP A
France
Argentina
Wales/Italy
JWT winners

GROUP B
England
Australia
Italy/Wales
Ireland

GROUP C
New Zealand
South Africa
Scotland
Georgia


Given that Ireland are rarely this poor at U20 level and likely to be significantly stronger next year, Group B (for the losers of the final) is looking very tough.


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:16 am 
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We tend to seat in Cafés so that's a fair comment for once.


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:18 am 
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4071 wrote:
Just realized what's at stake in the final for next year.

Given that Australia will beat Argentina and Ireland will likely beat Georgia, the groups next year look like this:

GROUP A
France
Argentina
Wales/Italy
JWT winners

GROUP B
England
Australia
Italy/Wales
Ireland

GROUP C
New Zealand
South Africa
Scotland
Georgia


Given that Ireland are rarely this poor at U20 level and likely to be significantly stronger next year, Group B (for the losers of the final) is looking very tough.

Bar the weirdness that you don't play most of your games against sides in your group so may be better having them with you?


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:31 am 
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Torquemada 1420 wrote:
4071 wrote:
Just realized what's at stake in the final for next year.

Given that Australia will beat Argentina and Ireland will likely beat Georgia, the groups next year look like this:

GROUP A
France
Argentina
Wales/Italy
JWT winners

GROUP B
England
Australia
Italy/Wales
Ireland

GROUP C
New Zealand
South Africa
Scotland
Georgia


Given that Ireland are rarely this poor at U20 level and likely to be significantly stronger next year, Group B (for the losers of the final) is looking very tough.

Bar the weirdness that you don't play most of your games against sides in your group so may be better having them with you?


?

Unless there's a change of format next year, you play against the three teams in your group to see which play-offs you qualify for.

Is it different next year?


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:35 am 
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Kid A wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:

The argument you put forward is baloney, not the stats.


eldanielfire wrote:
your stats are baloney



Riiiight.



Nice removal of context there. I'm talking about how you framed them, not the numbers. Hence why the other part of the post was bolded, not the figures.


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:44 am 
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Wow, big turn up from the Baby French

Hope they win the final, the title has between two nations for too long now


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:44 am 
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4071 wrote:
Just realized what's at stake in the final for next year.

Given that Australia will beat Argentina and Ireland will likely beat Georgia, the groups next year look like this:

GROUP A
France
Argentina
Wales/Italy
JWT winners

GROUP B
England
Australia
Italy/Wales
Ireland

GROUP C
New Zealand
South Africa
Scotland
Georgia


Given that Ireland are rarely this poor at U20 level and likely to be significantly stronger next year, Group B (for the losers of the final) is looking very tough.

Ireland is playing Japan, not Georgia.


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:47 am 
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eldanielfire wrote:
Kid A wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:

The argument you put forward is baloney, not the stats.


eldanielfire wrote:
your stats are baloney



Riiiight.



Nice removal of context there. I'm talking about how you framed them, not the numbers. Hence why the other part of the post was bolded, not the figures.


The figures don't lie. They fly in the face of those who say youngsters don't get a chance and there are too many foreign imports in French domestic rugby.


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:02 pm 
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Kid A wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
Kid A wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:

The argument you put forward is baloney, not the stats.


eldanielfire wrote:
your stats are baloney



Riiiight.



Nice removal of context there. I'm talking about how you framed them, not the numbers. Hence why the other part of the post was bolded, not the figures.


The figures don't lie. They fly in the face of those who say youngsters don't get a chance and there are too many foreign imports in French domestic rugby.


1) No one has claimed the figures lie.

2) The case is your sue of the figures is a lie. You claim that they prove foreign imports are not the problem with the French national side, and yet you use the fact the U20's who play club rugby as proof of this. But the U20's have not progresses to senior test rugby yet nor proven themselves as world class in the senior game.

The fact is you have conflated the U20 statistics with a few things.

1) That a single squad of 30 means that all talented French youth are getting opportunities and

2) these U20 player splaying well one year means that foreign imports aren't related to the decline of French national side, 30 youth players playing in a league of hundreds is no indication of the entire state of the youth in France.

3) despite the fact these players are not playing for the French national side their success has no baring as they have yet to prove they can play for the senior side.

4) The kiwis playing fewer club game sand minutes is relevant. Not quite, the kiwis have the same size U20 squad, but fewer elite sides to play for. Therefore the U20 kiwis will always have fewer opportunities anyway regardless of the state of either national side.

As I said you conflated a good U20 side with a different problem


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:06 pm 
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Congrats to England and France making the final. Good luck to both teams, sorry for my negative postings last night. :blush:

Enjoy the final.


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:11 pm 
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eldanielfire wrote:

1) No one has claimed the figures lie.


Apart from you when you said, and I quote "Your stats are baloney"

Quote:
2) The case is your sue of the figures is a lie. You claim that they prove foreign imports are not the problem with the French national side, and yet you use the fact the U20's who play club rugby as proof of this. But the U20's have not progresses to senior test rugby yet nor proven themselves as world class in the senior game.


The point is that people say the French side is suferring because there are few players playing in the Top14 and P2 because it's awash with foreigners. This clealry proves that they are getting the chance. If they aren't picked for the national side or aren't good enough, that's a whole other conversation.

Quote:
The fact is you have conflated the U20 statistics with a few things.

1) That a single squad of 30 means that all talented French youth are getting opportunities and

2) these U20 player splaying well one year means that foreign imports aren't related to the decline of French national side, 30 youth players playing in a league of hundreds is no indication of the entire state of the youth in France.

3) despite the fact these players are not playing for the French national side their success has no baring as they have yet to prove they can play for the senior side.

4) The kiwis playing fewer club game sand minutes is relevant. Not quite, the kiwis have the same size U20 squad, but fewer elite sides to play for. Therefore the U20 kiwis will always have fewer opportunities anyway regardless of the state of either national side.

As I said you conflated a good U20 side with a different problem


Nope. You even bolded the bit of my text where I specifically relate the issues to the lack of young French players playing.

The French national side is shite for a number of reasons. The stats I posted, show that people blaming lack of french youth opportunities at their clubs as being one of the reasons is misplaced.


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:23 pm 
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Kid A wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:

1) No one has claimed the figures lie.


Apart from you when you said, and I quote "Your stats are baloney"


Which didn't even refer to the posting of figures as I highlighted. You going to continue to cling to this because of the utter bollocks and irrelevant nature of your whole point?


Quote:

Quote:
2) The case is your sue of the figures is a lie. You claim that they prove foreign imports are not the problem with the French national side, and yet you use the fact the U20's who play club rugby as proof of this. But the U20's have not progresses to senior test rugby yet nor proven themselves as world class in the senior game.


The point is that people say the French side is suferring because there are few players playing in the Top14 and P2 because it's awash with foreigners. This clealry proves that they are getting the chance. If they aren't picked for the national side or aren't good enough, that's a whole other conversation.


You do realise that 30 players neither representative of the whole league and that it isn't a lot?



Quote:
Quote:
The fact is you have conflated the U20 statistics with a few things.

1) That a single squad of 30 means that all talented French youth are getting opportunities and

2) these U20 player splaying well one year means that foreign imports aren't related to the decline of French national side, 30 youth players playing in a league of hundreds is no indication of the entire state of the youth in France.

3) despite the fact these players are not playing for the French national side their success has no baring as they have yet to prove they can play for the senior side.

4) The kiwis playing fewer club game sand minutes is relevant. Not quite, the kiwis have the same size U20 squad, but fewer elite sides to play for. Therefore the U20 kiwis will always have fewer opportunities anyway regardless of the state of either national side.

As I said you conflated a good U20 side with a different problem


Nope. You even bolded the bit of my text where I specifically relate the issues to the lack of young French players playing.

The French national side is shite for a number of reasons. The stats I posted, show that people blaming lack of french youth opportunities at their clubs as being one of the reasons is misplaced.
[/quote]

But you have shown no stats that show French youth have fewer or more opportunities at their clubs. You have only shown 30 players in a league of hundreds do play club rugby, that has nothing to do with the national side's performance nor does it suggest other talented player have been given a chance when people complain "not enough" players are. It is irrelevant.


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:27 pm 
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eldanielfire wrote:

But you have shown no stats that show French youth have fewer or more opportunities at their clubs. You have only shown 30 players in a league of hundreds do play club rugby, that has nothing to do with the national side's performance nor does it suggest other talented player have been given a chance when people complain "not enough" players are. It is irrelevant.


These are the best French young players. I'm hardly likely to dig out a stat on some 18 year old who's not touted as being a top pro in years to come.

You clearly have no wish to see the value of the stat posted, because your agenda is colouring your vision.


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:31 pm 
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Kid A wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:

But you have shown no stats that show French youth have fewer or more opportunities at their clubs. You have only shown 30 players in a league of hundreds do play club rugby, that has nothing to do with the national side's performance nor does it suggest other talented player have been given a chance when people complain "not enough" players are. It is irrelevant.


These are the best French young players. I'm hardly likely to dig out a stat on some 18 year old who's not touted as being a top pro in years to come.

You clearly have no wish to see the value of the stat posted, because your agenda is colouring your vision.


What agenda? :lol:

the fact is the stats are irrelevant except to say these bunch of french youth do play club rugby. That has no bearing on the opportunities French youth are being given overall and certainly has no bearing on the quality or lack of the national teams performances or that New Zealand has fewer teams and there for their top 30 youth will have fewer club appearances anyway.

That's why the stat does not prove what you claim it does, you conflate am isolated state, that doesn't even conform the broader trends with another issue.


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:49 pm 
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eldanielfire wrote:

the fact is the stats are irrelevant except to say these bunch of french youth do play club rugby. That has no bearing on the opportunities French youth are being given overall and certainly has no bearing on the quality or lack of the national teams performances or that New Zealand has fewer teams and there for their top 30 youth will have fewer club appearances anyway.

That's why the stat does not prove what you claim it does, you conflate am isolated state, that doesn't even conform the broader trends with another issue.


Not really. Because the French national teams can only select a squad of their best players. They can't play everybody. Their player pool is huge. So it makes sense to focus on the top players as they will be the ones that have the biggest part to play in deeming success for the national teams.

These academy players are the very players that are looking to kick on. They're the very players that should be monitored to see if they are getting the chances they deserve.....not some 2nd rate lock at Carcassone (no disrespect to Carcasonne).... And the stats show they are getting chances.


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:01 pm 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
DonBillydeParis wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
Laurent wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMkgznth17U

daniel :lol:

such a thick irish accent


I'm trying to place which region of France that accent is from?


Brennan family lives in Toulouse northern suburbs... Obviously there's something in their culture that directed them towards a certain type of business.

Image

My sister in law lives a few hundred meters away from Brennan's.


That looks every bit as awful as several thousand other 'pubs' in France.


That's just another Irish Pub in France and there are many.


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:24 pm 
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Andalu wrote:
Ireland is playing Japan, not Georgia.

And are likely to lose anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:54 pm 
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4071 wrote:
Just realized what's at stake in the final for next year.

Given that Australia will beat Argentina and Ireland will likely beat Georgia, the groups next year look like this:

GROUP A
France
Argentina
Wales/Italy
JWT winners

GROUP B
England
Australia
Italy/Wales
Ireland

GROUP C
New Zealand
South Africa
Scotland
Georgia


Given that Ireland are rarely this poor at U20 level and likely to be significantly stronger next year, Group B (for the losers of the final) is looking very tough.


Am I right in thinking Scotland are hosting it next year?


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:12 pm 
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4071 wrote:
?

Unless there's a change of format next year, you play against the three teams in your group to see which play-offs you qualify for.

Is it different next year?

Ignore me. My mind was well and truly elsewhere. I was thinking how unfair the draw had been but that is precisely down to the thing you were highlighting. :blush:


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:43 pm 
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Kid A wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:

the fact is the stats are irrelevant except to say these bunch of french youth do play club rugby. That has no bearing on the opportunities French youth are being given overall and certainly has no bearing on the quality or lack of the national teams performances or that New Zealand has fewer teams and there for their top 30 youth will have fewer club appearances anyway.

That's why the stat does not prove what you claim it does, you conflate am isolated state, that doesn't even conform the broader trends with another issue.


Not really. Because the French national teams can only select a squad of their best players. They can't play everybody. Their player pool is huge. So it makes sense to focus on the top players as they will be the ones that have the biggest part to play in deeming success for the national teams.

These academy players are the very players that are looking to kick on. They're the very players that should be monitored to see if they are getting the chances they deserve.....not some 2nd rate lock at Carcassone (no disrespect to Carcasonne).... And the stats show they are getting chances.


EXACTLY! And your statistics show absolutely nothing about the player pool and if french talent is breaking through in the wider league. It could be happening, it might not be. It only shows that the selected few are playing games for some clubs. Nothing else.

Oh and BTW the French Federation and the owners of French clubs themselves agree that the imported players were affecting the national side, which is why they agreed to minimum French numbers in the squads.

http://www.rugbyworld.com/news/top-14-f ... yers-70163

So drone on all your want, but the French club owners agree they needed more French qualified players in their squads and it will benefit the national team eventually.


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:49 pm 
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eldanielfire wrote:
The French club owners agree they needed more French qualified players in their squads and it will benefit the national team eventually.

They don't. It's been enforced by pressure from the FFR and LNR. What the owners want is immediate success and spending time developing young players does not fit with that aim.


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:52 pm 
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Slater582 wrote:
Am I right in thinking Scotland are hosting it next year?

Yes.

edit:

Apparently this has now been changed to Argentina.


Last edited by Yer Man on Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:52 pm 
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It is trendy positively. Still a long way to go for some clubs though.

They still need to change the format of the comp. That's the main killer.


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:04 pm 
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Torquemada 1420 wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
The French club owners agree they needed more French qualified players in their squads and it will benefit the national team eventually.

They don't. It's been enforced by pressure from the FFR and LNR. What the owners want is immediate success and spending time developing young players does not fit with that aim.


Several french owners have verbally stated they believe the new rules will help the national side. I guess even they don't entirley like their impulses of acting basically like the space race of a league in they can only outdo each other with money and imports.


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:06 pm 
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La soule wrote:
It is trendy positively. Still a long way to go for some clubs though.

They still need to change the format of the comp. That's the main killer.


The format works as a way for all sides to get plenty of game time. So that works. In other areas there consistently seems to be a gap between 11th and anyone else so say a bigger tournament might not enhance things more despite the luck of the draw element for the 4th spot from the group stages.


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:37 pm 
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eldanielfire wrote:
La soule wrote:
It is trendy positively. Still a long way to go for some clubs though.

They still need to change the format of the comp. That's the main killer.


The format works as a way for all sides to get plenty of game time. So that works. In other areas there consistently seems to be a gap between 11th and anyone else so say a bigger tournament might not enhance things more despite the luck of the draw element for the 4th spot from the group stages.


The only reason for the format is Television rights. Nothing else related to rugby or the well being of the players I am afraid.


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:26 pm 
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La soule wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
La soule wrote:
It is trendy positively. Still a long way to go for some clubs though.

They still need to change the format of the comp. That's the main killer.


The format works as a way for all sides to get plenty of game time. So that works. In other areas there consistently seems to be a gap between 11th and anyone else so say a bigger tournament might not enhance things more despite the luck of the draw element for the 4th spot from the group stages.


The only reason for the format is Television rights. Nothing else related to rugby or the well being of the players I am afraid.


Ah you mean the frequency of games? I thought it was due to the tournament structure?


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:57 pm 
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eldanielfire wrote:
Ah you mean the frequency of games? I thought it was due to the tournament structure?

Why would that be the case when those factors are largely independent?

The bottom line is the financial bottom line.


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:02 am 
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UncleFB wrote:
Bobcock wrote:
Nieghorn wrote:
Noticed that Japan has a few Polynesian names in the squad. (Nicholas Hohua, Asipeli Moala, Sioeli Vakalahi, Halatoa Vailea, Siosala Fifita)

They scholarship kids or maybe sons of pros who settled?


Nicholas is definitely a scholarship player, from Auckland, going to University up in Hokkaido, but has not been well treated at this tournament.

They are all Kiwis as opposed to Islanders at birth

The others I believe scholarships, but cannot say 100%

Is he Maori, as opposed to Islander?


From meeting his parents I would say so. Very nice people.

What I meant was that any that are Islanders are Kiwis by birth as opposed to having been recruited from the islands themselves.


Last edited by Bobcock on Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:06 am 
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eldanielfire wrote:
Torquemada 1420 wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
The French club owners agree they needed more French qualified players in their squads and it will benefit the national team eventually.

They don't. It's been enforced by pressure from the FFR and LNR. What the owners want is immediate success and spending time developing young players does not fit with that aim.


Several french owners have verbally stated they believe the new rules will help the national side. I guess even they don't entirley like their impulses of acting basically like the space race of a league in they can only outdo each other with money and imports.

That is not the same thing as agreeing they needed more French qualified players.


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:32 am 
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Couple of shots from my trip.....

No accreditation so not pitchside, been decorating a room under time pressure since my return so have a lot to look through at a later date.


South Africa v Ireland

Image

New Zealand v Japan

Image

Image

Japan Training Session - Perpignan

Image


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:34 am 
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Great shots Bobcock, I'll be up there on Sunday.


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:42 am 
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Toro wrote:
Great shots Bobcock, I'll be up there on Sunday.


Supporting Japan I hope...... Sadly I think their big chance to be there next year is gone..... Shame as Our interest is young enough to be there next year wherever that is......

Maybe the tier two tournament.... wonder where that is,they won in Uruguay last year, I know it's Singapore this year.....


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:44 am 
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Just seen, next year tournament will be in Argentina.... don't know about Tier 2....


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:23 am 
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Anonymous. wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
Torquemada 1420 wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
The French club owners agree they needed more French qualified players in their squads and it will benefit the national team eventually.

They don't. It's been enforced by pressure from the FFR and LNR. What the owners want is immediate success and spending time developing young players does not fit with that aim.


Several french owners have verbally stated they believe the new rules will help the national side. I guess even they don't entirley like their impulses of acting basically like the space race of a league in they can only outdo each other with money and imports.

That is not the same thing as agreeing they needed more French qualified players.


To benefit the national team, yes they agreed it needed more French players in the clubs squads.


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:39 am 
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eldanielfire wrote:
La soule wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
La soule wrote:
It is trendy positively. Still a long way to go for some clubs though.

They still need to change the format of the comp. That's the main killer.


The format works as a way for all sides to get plenty of game time. So that works. In other areas there consistently seems to be a gap between 11th and anyone else so say a bigger tournament might not enhance things more despite the luck of the draw element for the 4th spot from the group stages.


The only reason for the format is Television rights. Nothing else related to rugby or the well being of the players I am afraid.


Ah you mean the frequency of games? I thought it was due to the tournament structure?


I think one of you is talking about JWC and the other is talking about T14.


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:05 am 
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4071 wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
La soule wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
La soule wrote:
It is trendy positively. Still a long way to go for some clubs though.

They still need to change the format of the comp. That's the main killer.


The format works as a way for all sides to get plenty of game time. So that works. In other areas there consistently seems to be a gap between 11th and anyone else so say a bigger tournament might not enhance things more despite the luck of the draw element for the 4th spot from the group stages.


The only reason for the format is Television rights. Nothing else related to rugby or the well being of the players I am afraid.


Ah you mean the frequency of games? I thought it was due to the tournament structure?


I think one of you is talking about JWC and the other is talking about T14.


AH! Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:38 am 
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Bobcock wrote:
Toro wrote:
Great shots Bobcock, I'll be up there on Sunday.


Supporting Japan I hope...... Sadly I think their big chance to be there next year is gone..... Shame as Our interest is young enough to be there next year wherever that is......

Maybe the tier two tournament.... wonder where that is,they won in Uruguay last year, I know it's Singapore this year.....


Got any linkies or deets plesse Bobcock?
Can’t seem to find anything and not aware of it being in sinkers this year.


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 Post subject: Re: JRWC 2018 - France
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:00 pm 
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Bobcock wrote:
Just seen, next year tournament will be in Argentina.... don't know about Tier 2....


Rosario and Santa Fe, same cities as in 2010. Some 400 km NW from Buenos Aires, and about 60/70 km from each other.


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