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 Post subject: Quick kick-off
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:52 am 
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There is a video floating around of a quick kick off after a penalty try now that the conversion doesn’t have to be taken. The players sprint off and kick off with no opposition as soon as the PT is given. A loop hole they need to fix or is it covered somewhere, as far as I can see the law book doesn’t cover it.

Apologies if done already.


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 Post subject: Re: Quick kick-off
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:25 am 
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Toro wrote:
There is a video floating around of a quick kick off after a penalty try now that the conversion doesn’t have to be taken. The players sprint off and kick off with no opposition as soon as the PT is given. A loop hole they need to fix or is it covered somewhere, as far as I can see the law book doesn’t cover it.

Apologies if done already.


Law book covers for it in effect. After a penalty try, there is a yellow card that needs awarding, therefore play must be stopped after the try, in order to issue the card. That many refs somehow feel that a penalty try alone is a reward (which seems daft to me), is the only reason it becomes a reality.

EDIT - i believe it was against Bath, and was in fact called back to issue the yellow.


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 Post subject: Re: Quick kick-off
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:34 am 
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Here it is. Does seem to have been disallowed as Raggs says

https://twitter.com/weeksie1979/status/ ... 3328796673

Loophole now closed (if the caption is to be believed)


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 Post subject: Re: Quick kick-off
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:45 am 
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A PT from a scrum often doesn't require a yellow card.

There was quick kick-off from a penalty by Steyn, and he didn't use the same ball either (not that that's written anywhere but it does make it easier)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUPF6jaaeKU

The conversion takes away the possibility normally but it was an interesting twist to see given the PT is now an automatic 7 points, even if it was called back as you say.
https://www.facebook.com/refereesrubgy/ ... 023622614/


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 Post subject: Re: Quick kick-off
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:48 am 
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Margin_Walker wrote:
Here it is. Does seem to have been disallowed as Raggs says

https://twitter.com/weeksie1979/status/ ... 3328796673

Loophole now closed (if the caption is to be believed)


Cheers. Yeah he doesn't seem to say how it's been closed.

I like in the comments one guy tries the ol' "we've been doing that forever in Sevens", then gets told the kick-off is the other way.


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 Post subject: Re: Quick kick-off
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:30 am 
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Toro wrote:
A PT from a scrum often doesn't require a yellow card.

There was quick kick-off from a penalty by Steyn, and he didn't use the same ball either (not that that's written anywhere but it does make it easier)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUPF6jaaeKU

The conversion takes away the possibility normally but it was an interesting twist to see given the PT is now an automatic 7 points, even if it was called back as you say.
https://www.facebook.com/refereesrubgy/ ... 023622614/

Bobo's foot seems to be over the line at the time of kick - does that count as being in front of the kicker?


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 Post subject: Re: Quick kick-off
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:35 am 
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Toro wrote:
A PT from a scrum often doesn't require a yellow card.

There was quick kick-off from a penalty by Steyn, and he didn't use the same ball either (not that that's written anywhere but it does make it easier)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUPF6jaaeKU

The conversion takes away the possibility normally but it was an interesting twist to see given the PT is now an automatic 7 points, even if it was called back as you say.
https://www.facebook.com/refereesrubgy/ ... 023622614/


Why doesn't a PT from a scrum need a yellow? The team cheated trying to stop a likely trying, simply awarding the try isn't punishing discipline, it's restoring equilibrium, the yellow is to stop teams trying to pull that crap in the first place. I'd agree that they often aren't given, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be.


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 Post subject: Re: Quick kick-off
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:50 am 
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You only have to go as far as the first law in the section to see why this particular one should be called back.

Quote:
13.1 Where and how the kick-off is taken

(a) A team kicks off with a drop kick which must be taken at or behind the centre of the half way line.

(b)If the ball is kicked off by the wrong type of kick, or from the incorrect place, the opposing team has two choices:

To have the ball kicked off again, or
To have a scrum at the centre of the half way line and they throw in the ball.




That was a grubber, not a drop kick. It's pedantic of me, but as an obsessive rule-follower, it also irks me when I see cheeky 22m restarts allowed in pro games when they've clearly grubbered as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Quick kick-off
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:58 am 
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Raggs wrote:
Toro wrote:
A PT from a scrum often doesn't require a yellow card.

There was quick kick-off from a penalty by Steyn, and he didn't use the same ball either (not that that's written anywhere but it does make it easier)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUPF6jaaeKU

The conversion takes away the possibility normally but it was an interesting twist to see given the PT is now an automatic 7 points, even if it was called back as you say.
https://www.facebook.com/refereesrubgy/ ... 023622614/


Why doesn't a PT from a scrum need a yellow? The team cheated trying to stop a likely trying, simply awarding the try isn't punishing discipline, it's restoring equilibrium, the yellow is to stop teams trying to pull that crap in the first place. I'd agree that they often aren't given, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be.



Can't a scrum collapse through the sheer force of the team going forward? Is that cheating?

The standing up / popping out penalty is a related one that annoys me (when it happens to the team I'm supporting). I've been in quite a few front row battles in my day, and a hooker most often does it because his opposition are putting a painful squeeze on his head (i.e. not driving straight).


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 Post subject: Re: Quick kick-off
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:18 pm 
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Nieghorn wrote:
Raggs wrote:
Toro wrote:
A PT from a scrum often doesn't require a yellow card.

There was quick kick-off from a penalty by Steyn, and he didn't use the same ball either (not that that's written anywhere but it does make it easier)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUPF6jaaeKU

The conversion takes away the possibility normally but it was an interesting twist to see given the PT is now an automatic 7 points, even if it was called back as you say.
https://www.facebook.com/refereesrubgy/ ... 023622614/


Why doesn't a PT from a scrum need a yellow? The team cheated trying to stop a likely trying, simply awarding the try isn't punishing discipline, it's restoring equilibrium, the yellow is to stop teams trying to pull that crap in the first place. I'd agree that they often aren't given, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be.



Can't a scrum collapse through the sheer force of the team going forward? Is that cheating?

The standing up / popping out penalty is a related one that annoys me (when it happens to the team I'm supporting). I've been in quite a few front row battles in my day, and a hooker most often does it because his opposition are putting a painful squeeze on his head (i.e. not driving straight).


If they've been going backwards, and some poor bugger slips, fair enough. But far too often for my liking, the ref sees someone cheating, and seems to consider the pen try sufficient.


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 Post subject: Re: Quick kick-off
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:28 pm 
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Raggs wrote:
Toro wrote:
A PT from a scrum often doesn't require a yellow card.

There was quick kick-off from a penalty by Steyn, and he didn't use the same ball either (not that that's written anywhere but it does make it easier)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUPF6jaaeKU

The conversion takes away the possibility normally but it was an interesting twist to see given the PT is now an automatic 7 points, even if it was called back as you say.
https://www.facebook.com/refereesrubgy/ ... 023622614/


Why doesn't a PT from a scrum need a yellow? The team cheated trying to stop a likely trying, simply awarding the try isn't punishing discipline, it's restoring equilibrium, the yellow is to stop teams trying to pull that crap in the first place. I'd agree that they often aren't given, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be.


You implied that the fact that a yellow card would stop the possibility of this loophole as something automatic with a penalty try. In scrums it has to be usually obviously because of one player infringing for a yellow to be given, not always the case with a scrum being pushed backwards.


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 Post subject: Re: Quick kick-off
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:57 pm 
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For me, it's a deliberate pull-down of the arm or twist of the shoulder to collapse inward. I can't think that I've seen someone actually just let their legs go.

Having been on both ends of it as a player, I'm also keenly aware of the whip around that used to result in a turnover / penalty.

A female friend who refs at a high level and who used to prop won immediate respect in her early days reffing men when she was able to call out 'fatties' on their 'dark arts', them displaying a cheeky grin as they got back 10, and meeting her with a beer afterwards.


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