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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 9:58 pm 
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pigsy wrote:
Thanks for this thread Satan. In fact, in this month's Psychologist magazine by Craig Harper, the coddling campus, discussing what is appropriate freedom of speech and how tribal political groups don't listen to each other. He quotes 'a righteous mind' in it. I only have a paper copy so can't post a link.

There is also a great documentary on netflix by one of Clinton's staffers about how its not about lef v right but about the disenfranchised v the insiders. I can't remember the name of it and don't have time to discuss now so will talk about this another time.


Maybe, finally the liberal elite are seeing their blind spot

And, not being facetious, what about the conservative elite? The thing about the liberal elite is despite having being raised on a version of their way is the right way do have the saving grace of being taught to at least attempt to consider the other person's viewpoint. And given rational reasons for their failings a new generation can reinvent themselves. I'm not so sure the conservative elite can or are willing to do so. They're going to be banging on the drums of their idiology till the world has moved far beyond them, which it is rapidly doing.


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:48 pm 
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I also have a half-baked theory about some of the basic psychology at play here.

Let's take this view from Carney et. al. which I linked to earlier:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 668.x/full

Quote:
In general, liberals are more open-minded, creative, curious, and novelty seeking, whereas conservatives are more orderly, conventional, and better organized.


Let's overlay the idea that liberals are more concerned with equality, justice and oppression than stability.

To begin my crap theory I assume then that conservatives value structure and stability more than liberals. In cultural terms structure could be seen as the cultural facts that constitute the culture itself. These are usually thought of as the religious beliefs, moral values, kinship assumptions, ideas of appropriate reciprocity (or economics) and things like that. But they also include the set of categories that describe a group's material and social worlds. What do I mean by that? Let's start with an easy one: gender categories. The West has recently tended to have two genders - male and female. In other places there have been additional gender categories: fa'fafine (Samoa), waria (Indonesia), muxe (Southern Mexico) etc. These kinds of categorical difference are the very basis of cultural difference.

However, the problem with any kind of structure, comprised of whatever number of categories, is that it will always fail to adequately reflect the complete underlying facts of the universe. At a highly level it is due to the insufficiency of human language, technology and intellect to apprehend the total universe. We must uncover it bit by bit and even then only according to our limited ability to conceptualise and describe.

The specific bases for the failure of our categories vary. In some instances there will be rare exceptions to the usual state of affairs (e.g. intersexual states). In other cases an assumed category might be brought into question when another group is encountered that does not have that category - witchcraft or traditional medicine might be examples of this. In other instances the category reflects a shallow understanding of the actual facts and might have to change as more facts are uncovered - race for example could fall within this description; it had a certain cache and validity at a certain point which then came into question as more was revealed about the underlying biology*. And in other cases a category reflects the predilections of the group and may be brought into question through encounter with a different group that has different concerns - value categories are one example; gold was valuable to some groups but not others and therefore was categorically different for different groups.

OK so we know that different groups have different sets of categories that describe their material and social worlds. And these categories provide the structure that allow those groups to understand and operate sensibly within those worlds. In short they provide certainty. When those categories come under threat or question then the structure becomes less certain and the social and material worlds become less certain.

Bringing this back to conservatives and liberals, conservatives value the sense of order and certainty that stable categories bring. Liberals, who value justice, recognise that many categories (particularly social ones) may be oppressive by dint of not always being true, only being locally true or being reflective of moral predilections that they do not value. They feel obliged to undermine those kinds of categories which in turn creates uncertainty and possibly instability.

The instinct to categories and then reify those categories in order to engender a sense of structure and order is entirely human and valuable, as is the instinct to undermine categories that are found to be insufficient. The problem for those who value structure is that they must ignore inconvenient facts in order to maintain order. There is a cost to maintaining order. The problem for those who value justice is that undermining ostensibly oppressive categories may have significant negative effects for wider society. There is a cost to progress.

Something I thought up in the shower.

* I'm not convinced that this one is resolved yet.


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:30 pm 
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Flockwitt wrote:
pigsy wrote:
Thanks for this thread Satan. In fact, in this month's Psychologist magazine by Craig Harper, the coddling campus, discussing what is appropriate freedom of speech and how tribal political groups don't listen to each other. He quotes 'a righteous mind' in it. I only have a paper copy so can't post a link.

There is also a great documentary on netflix by one of Clinton's staffers about how its not about lef v right but about the disenfranchised v the insiders. I can't remember the name of it and don't have time to discuss now so will talk about this another time.


Maybe, finally the liberal elite are seeing their blind spot

And, not being facetious, what about the conservative elite? The thing about the liberal elite is despite having being raised on a version of their way is the right way do have the saving grace of being taught to at least attempt to consider the other person's viewpoint. And given rational reasons for their failings a new generation can reinvent themselves. I'm not so sure the conservative elite can or are willing to do so. They're going to be banging on the drums of their idiology till the world has moved far beyond them, which it is rapidly doing.

Kind of.

I do feel, I suppose despite being left leaning politically the penny has dropped for the right minded. I think over the last 30 years, the prevailing wind has been that the liberals listen or did listen, wanted to discuss matters with the other side and the reconciliation between the 2 as far as I can tell is that they would come over to understanding left leaning views/principles etc. That much is fairly obvious. What's happened now is both, a more extreme left controlling the main stay of left wing politics and the right deciding they've drawn their line and have sussed somewhat how the left works as such. I think it's led to battle lines being drawn and neither wants to give an inch.

The more extreme left however does have the added advantage that it does seem to be able to currently scare business to do it's bidding. This is both a problem and business' fault. My issue isn't that business should be more open minded and some of this does work, the actual issue is, the extreme left (I'll keep it to the left because the right has a perception issue) could change it's fundamental view of the world at any time and business would be made to look foolish and is purely following them like a dog following it's tail.

Business/Education needs to either become political neutral or to draw very specific guidelines about what politics could be allowed in a broader sense. You might see extreme views drop as a result but I don't really know how you go about doing this.


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:32 am 
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Satan: I fell you are making a lot of assumptions here. I feel that we are at a cultural and political turning point here. I know something deep is potentially happening and I know I only have the vaguest idea of what it is that is occurring.

The documentary I was referring to was by Robert Reich (one of Clinton's cabinet who resigned fairly early out of frustration).

He basically sought out republicans and found common ground with them. The movement he thinks that is happening is those who feel left out of the political system and marginalised by the big business lobbying system are angry and are voting against anyone who is an insider regardless of what party they are.

I strongly suspect Corbyn has seen this documentary as he references outsiders in his speech claiming to stake for the centre ground, which in one way is laughable.

Trump fits the bill as he is not a politician and views himself as an outsider and so has the right rhetoric. The problem is that there is no way Trump is going to alter the fundamental way in which politics is funded, which is the underlying problem.

Brexit is a little harder to explain and I think is more complex in its origins.

Wendigo: It has been shocking and stark how illiberal 'liberals' have been since Brexit and Trump's election. On the one hand I understand it, but you want to just shout at them 'just listen to yourselves'.


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:44 am 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yo3gOoOSdhY

Dr Peterson breaks down left/right.


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:42 am 
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So, I don't know where to post this, and I doubt anyone here could understand, but New Years is the worst night of the year where I live, in many ways. Fireworks are legal here (Berlin) for sale for about two days, and it's quite chaotic. I've had two bangers thrown at me today, deliberately, and that's no fun. Having yoour ears ringing for 5 mins, isn't great, after all. Last year, my wife had a firework pistol pointed at her at close range and the trigger pulled. She didn't know it was only fireworks at the time.

So I braved the streets, went to a party, and came home to find one of the buildings opposite me on fire. Apparently the windows had been smashed and a firework thrown in. The whole place has burnt out. A musical instrument store, a cool survivor of the internetisation of everything. The police outside are still holding off a gang of aggressive Arabic men across the street, for what reason I do not know. I just went down and gave the cops what I have to eat - a few mandarins - which they took but probably won't eat.

I don't know what it is about me personally, or whether this is what everyone here is experiencing, but things are very, very bad . At least, localised to me, since I appear to be surrounded by some form of minor warzone. I mean, I witness things every week which would have been unthinkable a couple of years ago. I no longer know if I am very unlucky, or if others are desperately ignoring their surroundings because they are cowardly conformists. Given the quietness of the streets tonight, I suspect that they perfectly understand what's going on, but keep quiet. Whatever, you may think I'm lying (I'm not), but things are really not ok, at least in the 20 square metre bubble in which I move.

I have just put a downpayment on a farm on an island (thanks crypto), and I personally will be ok, at least in 4-6 months, but fudge guys, wake the fudge up! There is a solution to this. A reasonable solution. There has to be. Anyway, good luck working it out. I still think there's a way out. There must be. But for fudge's sake, it's time to have some balls, boys. Every single one of us has an obligation to influence the small parts of the world we can,in order to stop utter chaos from breaking out in our midst.

Happy New Year! I think 2018 will be great for me personally, but I'm so shattered about our collective future. Despite eating guavas from my own guava tree, it will be no fun watching the tragecy from a distance.


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:40 am 
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pigsy wrote:
Satan: I fell you are making a lot of assumptions here. I feel that we are at a cultural and political turning point here. I know something deep is potentially happening and I know I only have the vaguest idea of what it is that is occurring.

The documentary I was referring to was by Robert Reich (one of Clinton's cabinet who resigned fairly early out of frustration).

He basically sought out republicans and found common ground with them. The movement he thinks that is happening is those who feel left out of the political system and marginalised by the big business lobbying system are angry and are voting against anyone who is an insider regardless of what party they are.

I strongly suspect Corbyn has seen this documentary as he references outsiders in his speech claiming to stake for the centre ground, which in one way is laughable.

Trump fits the bill as he is not a politician and views himself as an outsider and so has the right rhetoric. The problem is that there is no way Trump is going to alter the fundamental way in which politics is funded, which is the underlying problem.

Brexit is a little harder to explain and I think is more complex in its origins.

Wendigo: It has been shocking and stark how illiberal 'liberals' have been since Brexit and Trump's election. On the one hand I understand it, but you want to just shout at them 'just listen to yourselves'.


Pigsy if you're referring to my huge screed, agreed huge assumptions. If you're referring to my other shorter post I don't think were too far apart.


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:45 am 
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pontifex wrote:
So, I don't know where to post this, and I doubt anyone here could understand, but New Years is the worst night of the year where I live, in many ways. Fireworks are legal here (Berlin) for sale for about two days, and it's quite chaotic. I've had two bangers thrown at me today, deliberately, and that's no fun. Having yoour ears ringing for 5 mins, isn't great, after all. Last year, my wife had a firework pistol pointed at her at close range and the trigger pulled. She didn't know it was only fireworks at the time.

So I braved the streets, went to a party, and came home to find one of the buildings opposite me on fire. Apparently the windows had been smashed and a firework thrown in. The whole place has burnt out. A musical instrument store, a cool survivor of the internetisation of everything. The police outside are still holding off a gang of aggressive Arabic men across the street, for what reason I do not know. I just went down and gave the cops what I have to eat - a few mandarins - which they took but probably won't eat.

I don't know what it is about me personally, or whether this is what everyone here is experiencing, but things are very, very bad . At least, localised to me, since I appear to be surrounded by some form of minor warzone. I mean, I witness things every week which would have been unthinkable a couple of years ago. I no longer know if I am very unlucky, or if others are desperately ignoring their surroundings because they are cowardly conformists. Given the quietness of the streets tonight, I suspect that they perfectly understand what's going on, but keep quiet. Whatever, you may think I'm lying (I'm not), but things are really not ok, at least in the 20 square metre bubble in which I move.

I have just put a downpayment on a farm on an island (thanks crypto), and I personally will be ok, at least in 4-6 months, but fudge guys, wake the fudge up! There is a solution to this. A reasonable solution. There has to be. Anyway, good luck working it out. I still think there's a way out. There must be. But for fudge's sake, it's time to have some balls, boys. Every single one of us has an obligation to influence the small parts of the world we can,in order to stop utter chaos from breaking out in our midst.

Happy New Year! I think 2018 will be great for me personally, but I'm so shattered about our collective future. Despite eating guavas from my own guava tree, it will be no fun watching the tragecy from a distance.


I am very fearful for my daughters. Genuinely fearful. I don't think the current trajectory bodes well for them and I don't think a nativist response as envisaged by the alt-right bodes well for them either. Unfortunately the alt-right seems to be the only 'group' to be looking at this stuff systematically.

As far as a reasonable reaponse goes well there's the rub. I can think of some effective responses that will not be seen as reasonable. I can't think of any reasonable responses that will be effective. I hope someone can.

Where's the island?


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:18 pm 
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Santa wrote:
pontifex wrote:
So, I don't know where to post this, and I doubt anyone here could understand, but New Years is the worst night of the year where I live, in many ways. Fireworks are legal here (Berlin) for sale for about two days, and it's quite chaotic. I've had two bangers thrown at me today, deliberately, and that's no fun. Having yoour ears ringing for 5 mins, isn't great, after all. Last year, my wife had a firework pistol pointed at her at close range and the trigger pulled. She didn't know it was only fireworks at the time.

So I braved the streets, went to a party, and came home to find one of the buildings opposite me on fire. Apparently the windows had been smashed and a firework thrown in. The whole place has burnt out. A musical instrument store, a cool survivor of the internetisation of everything. The police outside are still holding off a gang of aggressive Arabic men across the street, for what reason I do not know. I just went down and gave the cops what I have to eat - a few mandarins - which they took but probably won't eat.

I don't know what it is about me personally, or whether this is what everyone here is experiencing, but things are very, very bad . At least, localised to me, since I appear to be surrounded by some form of minor warzone. I mean, I witness things every week which would have been unthinkable a couple of years ago. I no longer know if I am very unlucky, or if others are desperately ignoring their surroundings because they are cowardly conformists. Given the quietness of the streets tonight, I suspect that they perfectly understand what's going on, but keep quiet. Whatever, you may think I'm lying (I'm not), but things are really not ok, at least in the 20 square metre bubble in which I move.

I have just put a downpayment on a farm on an island (thanks crypto), and I personally will be ok, at least in 4-6 months, but fudge guys, wake the fudge up! There is a solution to this. A reasonable solution. There has to be. Anyway, good luck working it out. I still think there's a way out. There must be. But for fudge's sake, it's time to have some balls, boys. Every single one of us has an obligation to influence the small parts of the world we can,in order to stop utter chaos from breaking out in our midst.

Happy New Year! I think 2018 will be great for me personally, but I'm so shattered about our collective future. Despite eating guavas from my own guava tree, it will be no fun watching the tragecy from a distance.


I am very fearful for my daughters. Genuinely fearful. I don't think the current trajectory bodes well for them and I don't think a nativist response as envisaged by the alt-right bodes well for them either. Unfortunately the alt-right seems to be the only 'group' to be looking at this stuff systematically.

As far as a reasonable reaponse goes well there's the rub. I can think of some effective responses that will not be seen as reasonable. I can't think of any reasonable responses that will be effective. I hope someone can.

Where's the island?


That's a sobering read Pontifex. What part of town are you living in?
Do you think Merkel will survive or go back to the polls, and if it's the polls, do you think the right will make further gains or suffer from a higher voter turnout?


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:27 pm 
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So, I live in a heavily migrant-populated area, near what the newer migrants have come to call Arab street. I am very cynical (no shit, hey!) about the Germans' ability to free themselves of the psychological burden of their past in order to come up with a reasonable solution. Unfortunately, since Germans are an increasingly dominant force in Europe, that inability will cost us all - well, not me, I'm outta here (sorry Satan, not telling where). I don't follow German politics much, largely because it's terribly boring, largely because Germany is a de facto one party state. It truly is - the two big parties have ruled in a coalition for the past several years, probably will for the next 4, and barely disagree on anything in policy terms. The Schultz/Merkel debate was almost embarrassing to watch for that reason, watching two people desperate to appear as if they disagreed. It was embarrassing for the German people more than anything else. So what will happen if Merkel has to go to the polls again? Many things could happen. The centre left vote could move further left, as people increasingly realise the SPD doesn't actually stand for anything, the far left vote could move to the centre to stave off the AFD, but I'm also certain that simultaneously the centre right and the centre left will be losing votes to AFD. FWIW, I think it is reasonable to conclude that AFD have some pretty extreme elements who have hijacked the party (established as a fairly moderate single-issue economic protest party against perceptions of Germany propping up and/or hindering the economies of the PIIGS), and that AFD gaining strength is far less desirable than a centrist party with someone who is actually a centrist at the helm. I reckon if the polls have to be redone, Merkel will probably resign, as she is in fact deeply unpopular across society, or at the very least there is a general feeling that she has overstayed her welcome. But Germans are not ready to break their conditioning and vote in a party they have been told are Nazis (which probably DOES have former elements of the NPD involved). That said, AFD are the opposition, not the SPD. Well, that and an extreme left which actually believes in communism, like hammer and sickle shit (oh, I guess that's Labour too these days), but nobody was clutching their pearls when Die Linke (formed from the remnants of the East German Communist Party) got almost as many votes as AFD. fudge, I don't know, now you've made me think about it (I had stopped caring), it looks like a complete mess, since the extreme left is actually very, very organized and very, very militant here (see G20 in Hamburg for recent examples of their work). Any attempt to deal with any of the problems will probably have to be extremely heavy-handed, seeing as deportations of single individuals are already met with riots. In short, Germany is completely screwed.

I'll give you another personal anecdote on the Germans. A few weeks ago, I was at Zoo station, passing through on a train (Charlottenburg - the fanciest area in the central parts of Berlin and the 'centre' of West Berlin). A man on the platform, probably South Asian - Bangladeshi if I had to guess - was screaming in broken German at the top of his lungs about bombing a Christmas Market (Merkel's Christmas market, to be exact), but doing so with a weird smile on his face (which he was completely off, for what it's worth). I'm not sure why, but the driver of the train decided to wait several minutes with the doors open, at the station. After a minute of more ranting without anyone really doing much, the man started to come at the door to my carriage and throw in a suitcase, which he called a bomb. People started running away from the carriage, others sat there doing f**king nothing, and I and one other guy came from across the carriage to at least throw the suitcase out and block the dude from doing it again. My point in this is that I was just flabbergasted at what a bunch of cowards literally everyone, except me and one other guy, was. As the train drove off, everyone sat in embarrassed silence and didn't make eye contact as I made a few nasty comments in English about them. Anyway, that to me is deeply frightening, since at least a hundred other people, probably several hundreds, witnessed what they witnessed, but also bore witness to their own cowardice. There will come a time when those feelings are released. If I am one of 4 million Berliners and don't get out as much as I used to, there's no way the general population is not experiencing similar things about as often as I do. We know what happens when Germans collectively exercise their frustrations, and once the extreme reactionaries establish a hold, the Germans will in turn go along with them, because they are the most conforming people on earth. That said, cowardice doesn't seem in short supply in the rest of the west at this stage.


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:08 pm 
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Thanks Pontifex.

Coming back to Haidt a key concept that he identifies is parochial altruism which roughly altruism directed preferentially toward the in group. It is a concept that exists across the world as a normal and even desirable behaviour except in the West where it is seen by liberals as unjust, offensive and discriminatory. In fact the opposite - let's call it outward altruism - is held as the ideal. It is the kind of thinking that underpins the whole open borders/no borders discourse.

The problem is that the outward altruism is self-destructive particularly if the out-group to whom the altruism is shown also practices parochial altruism. You would have group A and group B working for the benefit of group B and to the detriment of group A. Someone mentioned the word baizuo the other day - Seneca has used it in the past. Well that is baizuo.


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:09 pm 
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Santa wrote:
Thanks Pontifex.

Coming back to Haidt...

Yeah, sorry for the sidetracks.


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:30 pm 
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pontifex wrote:
Santa wrote:
Thanks Pontifex.

Coming back to Haidt...

Yeah, sorry for the sidetracks.


Not at all. Your posts are excellent.


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:18 am 
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Good thread.

Also, very interesting to read Pontifex's posts. Sounds like a tough time over there. :thumbdown:


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:27 am 
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Quote:
I'll give you another personal anecdote on the Germans. A few weeks ago, I was at Zoo station, passing through on a train (Charlottenburg - the fanciest area in the central parts of Berlin and the 'centre' of West Berlin). A man on the platform, probably South Asian - Bangladeshi if I had to guess - was screaming in broken German at the top of his lungs about bombing a Christmas Market (Merkel's Christmas market, to be exact), but doing so with a weird smile on his face (which he was completely off, for what it's worth). I'm not sure why, but the driver of the train decided to wait several minutes with the doors open, at the station. After a minute of more ranting without anyone really doing much, the man started to come at the door to my carriage and throw in a suitcase, which he called a bomb. People started running away from the carriage, others sat there doing f**king nothing, and I and one other guy came from across the carriage to at least throw the suitcase out and block the dude from doing it again. My point in this is that I was just flabbergasted at what a bunch of cowards literally everyone, except me and one other guy, was. As the train drove off, everyone sat in embarrassed silence and didn't make eye contact as I made a few nasty comments in English about them. Anyway, that to me is deeply frightening, since at least a hundred other people, probably several hundreds, witnessed what they witnessed, but also bore witness to their own cowardice. There will come a time when those feelings are released. If I am one of 4 million Berliners and don't get out as much as I used to, there's no way the general population is not experiencing similar things about as often as I do. We know what happens when Germans collectively exercise their frustrations, and once the extreme reactionaries establish a hold, the Germans will in turn go along with them, because they are the most conforming people on earth. That said, cowardice doesn't seem in short supply in the rest of the west at this stage.


Seek professional help.


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:31 am 
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Duff Paddy wrote:
Quote:
I'll give you another personal anecdote on the Germans. A few weeks ago, I was at Zoo station, passing through on a train (Charlottenburg - the fanciest area in the central parts of Berlin and the 'centre' of West Berlin). A man on the platform, probably South Asian - Bangladeshi if I had to guess - was screaming in broken German at the top of his lungs about bombing a Christmas Market (Merkel's Christmas market, to be exact), but doing so with a weird smile on his face (which he was completely off, for what it's worth). I'm not sure why, but the driver of the train decided to wait several minutes with the doors open, at the station. After a minute of more ranting without anyone really doing much, the man started to come at the door to my carriage and throw in a suitcase, which he called a bomb. People started running away from the carriage, others sat there doing f**king nothing, and I and one other guy came from across the carriage to at least throw the suitcase out and block the dude from doing it again. My point in this is that I was just flabbergasted at what a bunch of cowards literally everyone, except me and one other guy, was. As the train drove off, everyone sat in embarrassed silence and didn't make eye contact as I made a few nasty comments in English about them. Anyway, that to me is deeply frightening, since at least a hundred other people, probably several hundreds, witnessed what they witnessed, but also bore witness to their own cowardice. There will come a time when those feelings are released. If I am one of 4 million Berliners and don't get out as much as I used to, there's no way the general population is not experiencing similar things about as often as I do. We know what happens when Germans collectively exercise their frustrations, and once the extreme reactionaries establish a hold, the Germans will in turn go along with them, because they are the most conforming people on earth. That said, cowardice doesn't seem in short supply in the rest of the west at this stage.


Seek professional help.


I don't live where ponti does so for now, I don;t have a problem with taking his posts as truth. For now. Not sure why you'd post what you did?


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:41 am 
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Duff Paddy wrote:
Quote:
I'll give you another personal anecdote on the Germans. A few weeks ago, I was at Zoo station, passing through on a train (Charlottenburg - the fanciest area in the central parts of Berlin and the 'centre' of West Berlin). A man on the platform, probably South Asian - Bangladeshi if I had to guess - was screaming in broken German at the top of his lungs about bombing a Christmas Market (Merkel's Christmas market, to be exact), but doing so with a weird smile on his face (which he was completely off, for what it's worth). I'm not sure why, but the driver of the train decided to wait several minutes with the doors open, at the station. After a minute of more ranting without anyone really doing much, the man started to come at the door to my carriage and throw in a suitcase, which he called a bomb. People started running away from the carriage, others sat there doing f**king nothing, and I and one other guy came from across the carriage to at least throw the suitcase out and block the dude from doing it again. My point in this is that I was just flabbergasted at what a bunch of cowards literally everyone, except me and one other guy, was. As the train drove off, everyone sat in embarrassed silence and didn't make eye contact as I made a few nasty comments in English about them. Anyway, that to me is deeply frightening, since at least a hundred other people, probably several hundreds, witnessed what they witnessed, but also bore witness to their own cowardice. There will come a time when those feelings are released. If I am one of 4 million Berliners and don't get out as much as I used to, there's no way the general population is not experiencing similar things about as often as I do. We know what happens when Germans collectively exercise their frustrations, and once the extreme reactionaries establish a hold, the Germans will in turn go along with them, because they are the most conforming people on earth. That said, cowardice doesn't seem in short supply in the rest of the west at this stage.


Seek professional help.

Honestly, I'm getting out of here so that I don't have to. Hanging onto your mental health in such an environment isn't easy. I know that many will think what I relay is made up, I was accused of that a year ago when I relayed the f**ked up shit I experienced last year. I know it's not made up, though knowing that I'm not lying is no particular comfort. But I can only laugh at how few people are aware of how bad things are getting for people in their day-to-day lives in Germany, how deep and disconcerting the collective denial is, and scoff from thousands of kilometres away. The whole thing is like a giant exercise in gaslighting. That said, my wife does tell me that she only has bad shit happen when she's with me. I'd say it's just my bad luck except I don't believe in luck.


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:52 am 
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pontifex wrote:
Duff Paddy wrote:
Quote:
I'll give you another personal anecdote on the Germans. A few weeks ago, I was at Zoo station, passing through on a train (Charlottenburg - the fanciest area in the central parts of Berlin and the 'centre' of West Berlin). A man on the platform, probably South Asian - Bangladeshi if I had to guess - was screaming in broken German at the top of his lungs about bombing a Christmas Market (Merkel's Christmas market, to be exact), but doing so with a weird smile on his face (which he was completely off, for what it's worth). I'm not sure why, but the driver of the train decided to wait several minutes with the doors open, at the station. After a minute of more ranting without anyone really doing much, the man started to come at the door to my carriage and throw in a suitcase, which he called a bomb. People started running away from the carriage, others sat there doing f**king nothing, and I and one other guy came from across the carriage to at least throw the suitcase out and block the dude from doing it again. My point in this is that I was just flabbergasted at what a bunch of cowards literally everyone, except me and one other guy, was. As the train drove off, everyone sat in embarrassed silence and didn't make eye contact as I made a few nasty comments in English about them. Anyway, that to me is deeply frightening, since at least a hundred other people, probably several hundreds, witnessed what they witnessed, but also bore witness to their own cowardice. There will come a time when those feelings are released. If I am one of 4 million Berliners and don't get out as much as I used to, there's no way the general population is not experiencing similar things about as often as I do. We know what happens when Germans collectively exercise their frustrations, and once the extreme reactionaries establish a hold, the Germans will in turn go along with them, because they are the most conforming people on earth. That said, cowardice doesn't seem in short supply in the rest of the west at this stage.


Seek professional help.

Honestly, I'm getting out of here so that I don't have to. Hanging onto your mental health in such an environment isn't easy. I know that many will think what I relay is made up, I was accused of that a year ago when I relayed the f**ked up shit I experienced last year. I know it's not made up, though knowing that I'm not lying is no particular comfort. But I can only laugh at how few people are aware of how bad things are getting for people in their day-to-day lives in Germany, how deep and disconcerting the collective denial is, and scoff from thousands of kilometres away. The whole thing is like a giant exercise in gaslighting. That said, my wife does tell me that she only has bad shit happen when she's with me. I'd say it's just my bad luck except I don't believe in luck.


Personality? Hair? You're a goth. That's it isn't it. You're a f.ucking goth. I'd try to kill you if you were a goth.


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:52 am 
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Flockwitt wrote:
pigsy wrote:
Thanks for this thread Satan. In fact, in this month's Psychologist magazine by Craig Harper, the coddling campus, discussing what is appropriate freedom of speech and how tribal political groups don't listen to each other. He quotes 'a righteous mind' in it. I only have a paper copy so can't post a link.

There is also a great documentary on netflix by one of Clinton's staffers about how its not about lef v right but about the disenfranchised v the insiders. I can't remember the name of it and don't have time to discuss now so will talk about this another time.


Maybe, finally the liberal elite are seeing their blind spot

And, not being facetious, what about the conservative elite? The thing about the liberal elite is despite having being raised on a version of their way is the right way do have the saving grace of being taught to at least attempt to consider the other person's viewpoint. And given rational reasons for their failings a new generation can reinvent themselves. I'm not so sure the conservative elite can or are willing to do so. They're going to be banging on the drums of their idiology till the world has moved far beyond them, which it is rapidly doing.

If you read Haidt's book (or the NYT review posted here), he posits empirical evidence for precisely the opposite - 'conservatives', whatever they now are, are actually more likely to attempt to understand the viewpoint of those they disagree with than those who are currently trying to pass themselves off as liberals. I've seen a handful of studies suggesting that, and the post I responded to above is yet another example of someone completely unwilling to accept the possibility that a reality thousands of km away from where they live is not how they imagine it to be, or how it is reported to be in the media bubble they live in.


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:53 am 
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Santa wrote:
pontifex wrote:
Duff Paddy wrote:
Quote:
I'll give you another personal anecdote on the Germans. A few weeks ago, I was at Zoo station, passing through on a train (Charlottenburg - the fanciest area in the central parts of Berlin and the 'centre' of West Berlin). A man on the platform, probably South Asian - Bangladeshi if I had to guess - was screaming in broken German at the top of his lungs about bombing a Christmas Market (Merkel's Christmas market, to be exact), but doing so with a weird smile on his face (which he was completely off, for what it's worth). I'm not sure why, but the driver of the train decided to wait several minutes with the doors open, at the station. After a minute of more ranting without anyone really doing much, the man started to come at the door to my carriage and throw in a suitcase, which he called a bomb. People started running away from the carriage, others sat there doing f**king nothing, and I and one other guy came from across the carriage to at least throw the suitcase out and block the dude from doing it again. My point in this is that I was just flabbergasted at what a bunch of cowards literally everyone, except me and one other guy, was. As the train drove off, everyone sat in embarrassed silence and didn't make eye contact as I made a few nasty comments in English about them. Anyway, that to me is deeply frightening, since at least a hundred other people, probably several hundreds, witnessed what they witnessed, but also bore witness to their own cowardice. There will come a time when those feelings are released. If I am one of 4 million Berliners and don't get out as much as I used to, there's no way the general population is not experiencing similar things about as often as I do. We know what happens when Germans collectively exercise their frustrations, and once the extreme reactionaries establish a hold, the Germans will in turn go along with them, because they are the most conforming people on earth. That said, cowardice doesn't seem in short supply in the rest of the west at this stage.


Seek professional help.

Honestly, I'm getting out of here so that I don't have to. Hanging onto your mental health in such an environment isn't easy. I know that many will think what I relay is made up, I was accused of that a year ago when I relayed the f**ked up shit I experienced last year. I know it's not made up, though knowing that I'm not lying is no particular comfort. But I can only laugh at how few people are aware of how bad things are getting for people in their day-to-day lives in Germany, how deep and disconcerting the collective denial is, and scoff from thousands of kilometres away. The whole thing is like a giant exercise in gaslighting. That said, my wife does tell me that she only has bad shit happen when she's with me. I'd say it's just my bad luck except I don't believe in luck.


Personality? Hair? You're a goth. That's it isn't it. You're a f.ucking goth. I'd try to kill you if you were a goth.

Don't get it. Is that a reference to wherever the term gaslighting comes from? I just know its use, not its source.


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:01 am 
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pontifex wrote:
Santa wrote:
pontifex wrote:
Duff Paddy wrote:
Quote:
I'll give you another personal anecdote on the Germans. A few weeks ago, I was at Zoo station, passing through on a train (Charlottenburg - the fanciest area in the central parts of Berlin and the 'centre' of West Berlin). A man on the platform, probably South Asian - Bangladeshi if I had to guess - was screaming in broken German at the top of his lungs about bombing a Christmas Market (Merkel's Christmas market, to be exact), but doing so with a weird smile on his face (which he was completely off, for what it's worth). I'm not sure why, but the driver of the train decided to wait several minutes with the doors open, at the station. After a minute of more ranting without anyone really doing much, the man started to come at the door to my carriage and throw in a suitcase, which he called a bomb. People started running away from the carriage, others sat there doing f**king nothing, and I and one other guy came from across the carriage to at least throw the suitcase out and block the dude from doing it again. My point in this is that I was just flabbergasted at what a bunch of cowards literally everyone, except me and one other guy, was. As the train drove off, everyone sat in embarrassed silence and didn't make eye contact as I made a few nasty comments in English about them. Anyway, that to me is deeply frightening, since at least a hundred other people, probably several hundreds, witnessed what they witnessed, but also bore witness to their own cowardice. There will come a time when those feelings are released. If I am one of 4 million Berliners and don't get out as much as I used to, there's no way the general population is not experiencing similar things about as often as I do. We know what happens when Germans collectively exercise their frustrations, and once the extreme reactionaries establish a hold, the Germans will in turn go along with them, because they are the most conforming people on earth. That said, cowardice doesn't seem in short supply in the rest of the west at this stage.


Seek professional help.

Honestly, I'm getting out of here so that I don't have to. Hanging onto your mental health in such an environment isn't easy. I know that many will think what I relay is made up, I was accused of that a year ago when I relayed the f**ked up shit I experienced last year. I know it's not made up, though knowing that I'm not lying is no particular comfort. But I can only laugh at how few people are aware of how bad things are getting for people in their day-to-day lives in Germany, how deep and disconcerting the collective denial is, and scoff from thousands of kilometres away. The whole thing is like a giant exercise in gaslighting. That said, my wife does tell me that she only has bad shit happen when she's with me. I'd say it's just my bad luck except I don't believe in luck.


Personality? Hair? You're a goth. That's it isn't it. You're a f.ucking goth. I'd try to kill you if you were a goth.

Don't get it. Is that a reference to wherever the term gaslighting comes from? I just know its use, not its source.


Just a poor joke. Just looked up gaslighting. It's taken from the title of a play. I've seen it used more and more frequently over the past couple of years.


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:01 am 
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Just looked it again up too, since I thought you may have made a reference to the movie. It actually fits exactly what the media in Germany are by and large doing to the entire German population. And, for that matter, what Duff Paddy was doing to me a couple of posts above.


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:08 pm 
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BTW, if you want to watch a refreshingly honest, insightful film about our times, you could do worse than last years Cannes winner, The Square http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4995790/ . It is a satire of the breakdown of society in Sweden due to generalised cowardice. His previous film, Force Majeuere, is also excellent. He's basically the Enfant Terrible to replace Lars von Trier after he became persona non grata.


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:18 pm 
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Jordan Peterson is priceless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA96Kf30TQU

See arond 5:08


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:46 pm 
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flaggETERNAL wrote:
Duff Paddy wrote:
Quote:
I'll give you another personal anecdote on the Germans. A few weeks ago, I was at Zoo station, passing through on a train (Charlottenburg - the fanciest area in the central parts of Berlin and the 'centre' of West Berlin). A man on the platform, probably South Asian - Bangladeshi if I had to guess - was screaming in broken German at the top of his lungs about bombing a Christmas Market (Merkel's Christmas market, to be exact), but doing so with a weird smile on his face (which he was completely off, for what it's worth). I'm not sure why, but the driver of the train decided to wait several minutes with the doors open, at the station. After a minute of more ranting without anyone really doing much, the man started to come at the door to my carriage and throw in a suitcase, which he called a bomb. People started running away from the carriage, others sat there doing f**king nothing, and I and one other guy came from across the carriage to at least throw the suitcase out and block the dude from doing it again. My point in this is that I was just flabbergasted at what a bunch of cowards literally everyone, except me and one other guy, was. As the train drove off, everyone sat in embarrassed silence and didn't make eye contact as I made a few nasty comments in English about them. Anyway, that to me is deeply frightening, since at least a hundred other people, probably several hundreds, witnessed what they witnessed, but also bore witness to their own cowardice. There will come a time when those feelings are released. If I am one of 4 million Berliners and don't get out as much as I used to, there's no way the general population is not experiencing similar things about as often as I do. We know what happens when Germans collectively exercise their frustrations, and once the extreme reactionaries establish a hold, the Germans will in turn go along with them, because they are the most conforming people on earth. That said, cowardice doesn't seem in short supply in the rest of the west at this stage.


Seek professional help.


I don't live where ponti does so for now, I don;t have a problem with taking his posts as truth. For now. Not sure why you'd post what you did?


I'm sure his post was entirely true - it's an anecdote about some odd guy, off his face, yelling on a train platform. There's no reason to doubt that it happened. I've seen plenty of shouty lunatics on public transport.

What's odd is the 'end-of-civilisation' type of conclusion drawn from a small encounter with a mentalist. He's drawing conclusions about the state of mind of a nation - apparently a nation of cowards, unable to do what needs to be done (whatever that may be) - based on the fact that a number of people ignored the shouty looney on the platform.


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:49 pm 
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4071 wrote:
flaggETERNAL wrote:
Duff Paddy wrote:
Quote:
I'll give you another personal anecdote on the Germans. A few weeks ago, I was at Zoo station, passing through on a train (Charlottenburg - the fanciest area in the central parts of Berlin and the 'centre' of West Berlin). A man on the platform, probably South Asian - Bangladeshi if I had to guess - was screaming in broken German at the top of his lungs about bombing a Christmas Market (Merkel's Christmas market, to be exact), but doing so with a weird smile on his face (which he was completely off, for what it's worth). I'm not sure why, but the driver of the train decided to wait several minutes with the doors open, at the station. After a minute of more ranting without anyone really doing much, the man started to come at the door to my carriage and throw in a suitcase, which he called a bomb. People started running away from the carriage, others sat there doing f**king nothing, and I and one other guy came from across the carriage to at least throw the suitcase out and block the dude from doing it again. My point in this is that I was just flabbergasted at what a bunch of cowards literally everyone, except me and one other guy, was. As the train drove off, everyone sat in embarrassed silence and didn't make eye contact as I made a few nasty comments in English about them. Anyway, that to me is deeply frightening, since at least a hundred other people, probably several hundreds, witnessed what they witnessed, but also bore witness to their own cowardice. There will come a time when those feelings are released. If I am one of 4 million Berliners and don't get out as much as I used to, there's no way the general population is not experiencing similar things about as often as I do. We know what happens when Germans collectively exercise their frustrations, and once the extreme reactionaries establish a hold, the Germans will in turn go along with them, because they are the most conforming people on earth. That said, cowardice doesn't seem in short supply in the rest of the west at this stage.


Seek professional help.


I don't live where ponti does so for now, I don;t have a problem with taking his posts as truth. For now. Not sure why you'd post what you did?


I'm sure his post was entirely true - it's an anecdote about some odd guy, off his face, yelling on a train platform. There's no reason to doubt that it happened. I've seen plenty of shouty lunatics on public transport.

What's odd is the 'end-of-civilisation' type of conclusion drawn from a small encounter with a mentalist. He's drawing conclusions about the state of mind of a nation - apparently a nation of cowards, unable to do what needs to be done (whatever that may be) - based on the fact that a number of people ignored the shouty looney on the platform.


I imagine he'll calm down a bit when he reads about the Bystander Effect. Or not.


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:49 pm 
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4071 wrote:
flaggETERNAL wrote:
Duff Paddy wrote:
Quote:
I'll give you another personal anecdote on the Germans. A few weeks ago, I was at Zoo station, passing through on a train (Charlottenburg - the fanciest area in the central parts of Berlin and the 'centre' of West Berlin). A man on the platform, probably South Asian - Bangladeshi if I had to guess - was screaming in broken German at the top of his lungs about bombing a Christmas Market (Merkel's Christmas market, to be exact), but doing so with a weird smile on his face (which he was completely off, for what it's worth). I'm not sure why, but the driver of the train decided to wait several minutes with the doors open, at the station. After a minute of more ranting without anyone really doing much, the man started to come at the door to my carriage and throw in a suitcase, which he called a bomb. People started running away from the carriage, others sat there doing f**king nothing, and I and one other guy came from across the carriage to at least throw the suitcase out and block the dude from doing it again. My point in this is that I was just flabbergasted at what a bunch of cowards literally everyone, except me and one other guy, was. As the train drove off, everyone sat in embarrassed silence and didn't make eye contact as I made a few nasty comments in English about them. Anyway, that to me is deeply frightening, since at least a hundred other people, probably several hundreds, witnessed what they witnessed, but also bore witness to their own cowardice. There will come a time when those feelings are released. If I am one of 4 million Berliners and don't get out as much as I used to, there's no way the general population is not experiencing similar things about as often as I do. We know what happens when Germans collectively exercise their frustrations, and once the extreme reactionaries establish a hold, the Germans will in turn go along with them, because they are the most conforming people on earth. That said, cowardice doesn't seem in short supply in the rest of the west at this stage.


Seek professional help.


I don't live where ponti does so for now, I don;t have a problem with taking his posts as truth. For now. Not sure why you'd post what you did?


I'm sure his post was entirely true - it's an anecdote about some odd guy, off his face, yelling on a train platform. There's no reason to doubt that it happened. I've seen plenty of shouty lunatics on public transport.

What's odd is the 'end-of-civilisation' type of conclusion drawn from a small encounter with a mentalist. He's drawing conclusions about the state of mind of a nation - apparently a nation of cowards, unable to do what needs to be done (whatever that may be) - based on the fact that a number of people ignored the shouty looney on the platform.


Added to a few other things he's observed/experienced through a reasonable period of time. And even after allowing for the fact that his own peculiar bad luck just might add, adversely, to his own experiences.

At least attempt to be reasonable instead of gaslighting the man.


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:50 pm 
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4071 wrote:
flaggETERNAL wrote:
Duff Paddy wrote:
Quote:
I'll give you another personal anecdote on the Germans. A few weeks ago, I was at Zoo station, passing through on a train (Charlottenburg - the fanciest area in the central parts of Berlin and the 'centre' of West Berlin). A man on the platform, probably South Asian - Bangladeshi if I had to guess - was screaming in broken German at the top of his lungs about bombing a Christmas Market (Merkel's Christmas market, to be exact), but doing so with a weird smile on his face (which he was completely off, for what it's worth). I'm not sure why, but the driver of the train decided to wait several minutes with the doors open, at the station. After a minute of more ranting without anyone really doing much, the man started to come at the door to my carriage and throw in a suitcase, which he called a bomb. People started running away from the carriage, others sat there doing f**king nothing, and I and one other guy came from across the carriage to at least throw the suitcase out and block the dude from doing it again. My point in this is that I was just flabbergasted at what a bunch of cowards literally everyone, except me and one other guy, was. As the train drove off, everyone sat in embarrassed silence and didn't make eye contact as I made a few nasty comments in English about them. Anyway, that to me is deeply frightening, since at least a hundred other people, probably several hundreds, witnessed what they witnessed, but also bore witness to their own cowardice. There will come a time when those feelings are released. If I am one of 4 million Berliners and don't get out as much as I used to, there's no way the general population is not experiencing similar things about as often as I do. We know what happens when Germans collectively exercise their frustrations, and once the extreme reactionaries establish a hold, the Germans will in turn go along with them, because they are the most conforming people on earth. That said, cowardice doesn't seem in short supply in the rest of the west at this stage.


Seek professional help.


I don't live where ponti does so for now, I don;t have a problem with taking his posts as truth. For now. Not sure why you'd post what you did?


I'm sure his post was entirely true - it's an anecdote about some odd guy, off his face, yelling on a train platform. There's no reason to doubt that it happened. I've seen plenty of shouty lunatics on public transport.

What's odd is the 'end-of-civilisation' type of conclusion drawn from a small encounter with a mentalist. He's drawing conclusions about the state of mind of a nation - apparently a nation of cowards, unable to do what needs to be done (whatever that may be) - based on the fact that a number of people ignored the shouty looney on the platform.


Pontifex has posted a number of related stories over the last few months. He is connecting them based on his experience and understanding of the situation in Germany to illustrate the situation in Germany. He is not a lone voice.


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:51 pm 
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Chuckles1188 wrote:
I imagine he'll calm down a bit when he reads about the Bystander Effect. Or not.


Your sewage pit of an imagination should not be allowed near anything.


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:51 pm 
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I go to Germany all the time.

My experience has been very different to Ponti’s. No such issues.

Hope it works out for you, bro. :thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:06 pm 
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4071 wrote:
flaggETERNAL wrote:
Duff Paddy wrote:
Quote:
I'll give you another personal anecdote on the Germans. A few weeks ago, I was at Zoo station, passing through on a train (Charlottenburg - the fanciest area in the central parts of Berlin and the 'centre' of West Berlin). A man on the platform, probably South Asian - Bangladeshi if I had to guess - was screaming in broken German at the top of his lungs about bombing a Christmas Market (Merkel's Christmas market, to be exact), but doing so with a weird smile on his face (which he was completely off, for what it's worth). I'm not sure why, but the driver of the train decided to wait several minutes with the doors open, at the station. After a minute of more ranting without anyone really doing much, the man started to come at the door to my carriage and throw in a suitcase, which he called a bomb. People started running away from the carriage, others sat there doing f**king nothing, and I and one other guy came from across the carriage to at least throw the suitcase out and block the dude from doing it again. My point in this is that I was just flabbergasted at what a bunch of cowards literally everyone, except me and one other guy, was. As the train drove off, everyone sat in embarrassed silence and didn't make eye contact as I made a few nasty comments in English about them. Anyway, that to me is deeply frightening, since at least a hundred other people, probably several hundreds, witnessed what they witnessed, but also bore witness to their own cowardice. There will come a time when those feelings are released. If I am one of 4 million Berliners and don't get out as much as I used to, there's no way the general population is not experiencing similar things about as often as I do. We know what happens when Germans collectively exercise their frustrations, and once the extreme reactionaries establish a hold, the Germans will in turn go along with them, because they are the most conforming people on earth. That said, cowardice doesn't seem in short supply in the rest of the west at this stage.


Seek professional help.


I don't live where ponti does so for now, I don;t have a problem with taking his posts as truth. For now. Not sure why you'd post what you did?


I'm sure his post was entirely true - it's an anecdote about some odd guy, off his face, yelling on a train platform. There's no reason to doubt that it happened. I've seen plenty of shouty lunatics on public transport.

What's odd is the 'end-of-civilisation' type of conclusion drawn from a small encounter with a mentalist. He's drawing conclusions about the state of mind of a nation - apparently a nation of cowards, unable to do what needs to be done (whatever that may be) - based on the fact that a number of people ignored the shouty looney on the platform.

If you'd paid attention, you'd know that the pattern I'm referring to goes far beyond a single isolated event. I've been punched/kicked by under 8s on two occasions, spat at on the street, watched my wife pinned up against a wall as a group of teens wielded wooden planks with nails and knives at a security guard, I see symbols of violent Palestinian nationalism every single day around the necks of young men and women in the street, I live literally 100m from this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm4XaqWIq3U and witnessed young men shouting the Islamic war cry as they fired fireworks at people last year. This year I came home to find the same guys from the same shisha cafe (one of 4 which has popped up within 20m of my house in 2 years, alongside the mobile shooting station to facilitate the junkies attracted by the Arab clans selling Heroin at the nearest station) had burned down a building opposite me (I later worked out why the police were holding off a group of angry young men - they were holding their friend 50m away). In short, what has happened to my neighbourhood, and increasingly more of Berlin, is what happened to Molenbeek, as described here: https://www.politico.eu/article/molenbe ... ification/

You can claim that what I'm witnessing almost every single day, ranging from the half a dozen young men and women I see with knife pendants around their necks, or Hezbollah/Ak-47 tattoos, to sexual harrassment every single day, to having dudes swerve to hit me as I cross the road, to being spat on, to seeing young children go unchided after they point finger-guns at shopkeepers, to actual violent melees, is not a sign of a general breakdown of society, and that people going about their lives while pretending it's not happening is simply keeping calm and carrying on. You can paint me as dramatic, or attempt to gaslight me about my own experiences because you are too cowardly to admit that you may be wrong. I view it as a form of cowardice which will mean the window of opportunity to solve these issues reasonably will pass us by. And those people, including those here, will have to live with their cowardice for the rest of their lives, once they realise that they couldn't wish what people were reporting away by pretending that a pattern had not emerged.


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:10 pm 
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Santa wrote:
4071 wrote:
flaggETERNAL wrote:
Duff Paddy wrote:
Quote:
I'll give you another personal anecdote on the Germans. A few weeks ago, I was at Zoo station, passing through on a train (Charlottenburg - the fanciest area in the central parts of Berlin and the 'centre' of West Berlin). A man on the platform, probably South Asian - Bangladeshi if I had to guess - was screaming in broken German at the top of his lungs about bombing a Christmas Market (Merkel's Christmas market, to be exact), but doing so with a weird smile on his face (which he was completely off, for what it's worth). I'm not sure why, but the driver of the train decided to wait several minutes with the doors open, at the station. After a minute of more ranting without anyone really doing much, the man started to come at the door to my carriage and throw in a suitcase, which he called a bomb. People started running away from the carriage, others sat there doing f**king nothing, and I and one other guy came from across the carriage to at least throw the suitcase out and block the dude from doing it again. My point in this is that I was just flabbergasted at what a bunch of cowards literally everyone, except me and one other guy, was. As the train drove off, everyone sat in embarrassed silence and didn't make eye contact as I made a few nasty comments in English about them. Anyway, that to me is deeply frightening, since at least a hundred other people, probably several hundreds, witnessed what they witnessed, but also bore witness to their own cowardice. There will come a time when those feelings are released. If I am one of 4 million Berliners and don't get out as much as I used to, there's no way the general population is not experiencing similar things about as often as I do. We know what happens when Germans collectively exercise their frustrations, and once the extreme reactionaries establish a hold, the Germans will in turn go along with them, because they are the most conforming people on earth. That said, cowardice doesn't seem in short supply in the rest of the west at this stage.


Seek professional help.


I don't live where ponti does so for now, I don;t have a problem with taking his posts as truth. For now. Not sure why you'd post what you did?


I'm sure his post was entirely true - it's an anecdote about some odd guy, off his face, yelling on a train platform. There's no reason to doubt that it happened. I've seen plenty of shouty lunatics on public transport.

What's odd is the 'end-of-civilisation' type of conclusion drawn from a small encounter with a mentalist. He's drawing conclusions about the state of mind of a nation - apparently a nation of cowards, unable to do what needs to be done (whatever that may be) - based on the fact that a number of people ignored the shouty looney on the platform.


Pontifex has posted a number of related stories over the last few months. He is connecting them based on his experience and understanding of the situation in Germany to illustrate the situation in Germany. He is not a lone voice.


DELETED - I just saw Pont's previous post, and whilst the last two anecdotes have been tame, he does appear to have had quite a number of shitty experiences. Which would colour anyone's opinions.

And which I am sorry to hear about.


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:16 pm 
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4071 wrote:

DELETED - I just saw Pont's previous post, and whilst the last two anecdotes have been tame, he does appear to have had quite a number of shitty experiences. Which would colour anyone's opinions.

And which I am sorry to hear about.


Yes they might just colour his opinion. But Pontifex might also be right. Are you open to that possibility at least?


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:17 pm 
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4071 wrote:
Santa wrote:
4071 wrote:
flaggETERNAL wrote:
Quote:
I'll give you another personal anecdote on the Germans. A few weeks ago, I was at Zoo station, passing through on a train (Charlottenburg - the fanciest area in the central parts of Berlin and the 'centre' of West Berlin). A man on the platform, probably South Asian - Bangladeshi if I had to guess - was screaming in broken German at the top of his lungs about bombing a Christmas Market (Merkel's Christmas market, to be exact), but doing so with a weird smile on his face (which he was completely off, for what it's worth). I'm not sure why, but the driver of the train decided to wait several minutes with the doors open, at the station. After a minute of more ranting without anyone really doing much, the man started to come at the door to my carriage and throw in a suitcase, which he called a bomb. People started running away from the carriage, others sat there doing f**king nothing, and I and one other guy came from across the carriage to at least throw the suitcase out and block the dude from doing it again. My point in this is that I was just flabbergasted at what a bunch of cowards literally everyone, except me and one other guy, was. As the train drove off, everyone sat in embarrassed silence and didn't make eye contact as I made a few nasty comments in English about them. Anyway, that to me is deeply frightening, since at least a hundred other people, probably several hundreds, witnessed what they witnessed, but also bore witness to their own cowardice. There will come a time when those feelings are released. If I am one of 4 million Berliners and don't get out as much as I used to, there's no way the general population is not experiencing similar things about as often as I do. We know what happens when Germans collectively exercise their frustrations, and once the extreme reactionaries establish a hold, the Germans will in turn go along with them, because they are the most conforming people on earth. That said, cowardice doesn't seem in short supply in the rest of the west at this stage.




I don't live where ponti does so for now, I don;t have a problem with taking his posts as truth. For now. Not sure why you'd post what you did?


I'm sure his post was entirely true - it's an anecdote about some odd guy, off his face, yelling on a train platform. There's no reason to doubt that it happened. I've seen plenty of shouty lunatics on public transport.

What's odd is the 'end-of-civilisation' type of conclusion drawn from a small encounter with a mentalist. He's drawing conclusions about the state of mind of a nation - apparently a nation of cowards, unable to do what needs to be done (whatever that may be) - based on the fact that a number of people ignored the shouty looney on the platform.


Pontifex has posted a number of related stories over the last few months. He is connecting them based on his experience and understanding of the situation in Germany to illustrate the situation in Germany. He is not a lone voice.


The previous anecdote was similar, though. Fireworks on New Year in Germany? Same here in the Netherlands. Because for years both countries have had a tradition of letting off f**king tons of fireworks. In the streets. And drinking. Which is an appalling combination, but hardly end-of-civilization stuff.

It's as if he's interpreting these 'incidents' through a prism of expectation.



I could tell an anecdote of the streets near me being blocked off by a huge gang of North African men, waving flags, shouting, letting off bangers and stopping any cars that were driving through the area. These streets were cordoned of by armed police and the gangs were facing off with them. I was trapped in the middle of this, and unable to take my normal route home.

This happened. And I was there - stuck between the police and the crowd - and unable to leave.

But I don't think of it as end of civilization stuff. Instead, I asked one of the guys on the fringes what was going on and apparently Morocco had just qualified for the World Cup. Despite the noise, the bangers, the blocking off the streets and the insults chucked at police, they were generally happy and celebrating. Annoying, unnecessary and possibly intimidating. But no more end-of-civilization than the same thing happening in England when the football team wins a big game.


I don't know how Pontifex would have interpreted the same situation, though.

How would you, on the other hand, interpret seeing dozens of people per day with knife pendants hanging very ostentatiously from their necks? How would you interpret seeing young children point gun fingers at shopkeepers while telling them to cover their hair, and then watching their mother do absolutely nothing to chide them? How would you 'interpret' watching your wife pinned against a wall between armed gangsters and security guards at a supposedly safe train station? How would you interpret the dozens of other events I witness? In short, how and why do you insist it is not possible that there is a pattern emerging (when it's patently obvious, of course, that there is, not just in my experience, but across Europe at large), and some reasonable steps must be taken to actually start to deal with what is happening, rather than ignoring it?


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:19 pm 
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Everyone, but everyone, should watch the Square. It is the best film to describe the times we're in I've seen, and frankly I'm surprised it got made (and won Cannes).


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:21 pm 
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Location: Chickenrunning...
pontifex wrote:
Everyone, but everyone, should watch the Square. It is the best film to describe the times we're in I've seen, and frankly I'm surprised it got made (and won Cannes).


Does it have any spaceships in it?


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:22 pm 
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Sandstorm wrote:
pontifex wrote:
Everyone, but everyone, should watch the Square. It is the best film to describe the times we're in I've seen, and frankly I'm surprised it got made (and won Cannes).


Does it have any spaceships in it?

No. And it makes you realise just how shit Hollywood is, and how far Hollywood vacuity has come to dominate our culture.


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:23 pm 
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But for now, start with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm4XaqWIq3U . Fireworks in Neukoelln 2016-17. A handful of days after the Berlin Christmas Market attack.


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:27 pm 
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pontifex wrote:
4071 wrote:
Santa wrote:
4071 wrote:
flaggETERNAL wrote:

I don't live where ponti does so for now, I don;t have a problem with taking his posts as truth. For now. Not sure why you'd post what you did?


I'm sure his post was entirely true - it's an anecdote about some odd guy, off his face, yelling on a train platform. There's no reason to doubt that it happened. I've seen plenty of shouty lunatics on public transport.

What's odd is the 'end-of-civilisation' type of conclusion drawn from a small encounter with a mentalist. He's drawing conclusions about the state of mind of a nation - apparently a nation of cowards, unable to do what needs to be done (whatever that may be) - based on the fact that a number of people ignored the shouty looney on the platform.


Pontifex has posted a number of related stories over the last few months. He is connecting them based on his experience and understanding of the situation in Germany to illustrate the situation in Germany. He is not a lone voice.


The previous anecdote was similar, though. Fireworks on New Year in Germany? Same here in the Netherlands. Because for years both countries have had a tradition of letting off f**king tons of fireworks. In the streets. And drinking. Which is an appalling combination, but hardly end-of-civilization stuff.

It's as if he's interpreting these 'incidents' through a prism of expectation.



I could tell an anecdote of the streets near me being blocked off by a huge gang of North African men, waving flags, shouting, letting off bangers and stopping any cars that were driving through the area. These streets were cordoned of by armed police and the gangs were facing off with them. I was trapped in the middle of this, and unable to take my normal route home.

This happened. And I was there - stuck between the police and the crowd - and unable to leave.

But I don't think of it as end of civilization stuff. Instead, I asked one of the guys on the fringes what was going on and apparently Morocco had just qualified for the World Cup. Despite the noise, the bangers, the blocking off the streets and the insults chucked at police, they were generally happy and celebrating. Annoying, unnecessary and possibly intimidating. But no more end-of-civilization than the same thing happening in England when the football team wins a big game.


I don't know how Pontifex would have interpreted the same situation, though.

How would you, on the other hand, interpret seeing dozens of people per day with knife pendants hanging very ostentatiously from their necks? How would you interpret seeing young children point gun fingers at shopkeepers while telling them to cover their hair, and then watching their mother do absolutely nothing to chide them? How would you 'interpret' watching your wife pinned against a wall between armed gangsters and security guards at a supposedly safe train station? How would you interpret the dozens of other events I witness? In short, how and why do you insist it is not possible that there is a pattern emerging (when it's patently obvious, of course, that there is, not just in my experience, but across Europe at large), and some reasonable steps must be taken to actually start to deal with what is happening, rather than ignoring it?


I would struggle to give a shit about knife pendants, as I think of them as jewellery. Arsehole kids raised by trash parents are something I've also encountered for decades.

But certainly there is more to your experiences than these things, and perhaps you are right to feel concerned.


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 Post subject: Re: The Age of Outrage
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:28 pm 
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shanky wrote:
I go to Germany all the time.

My experience has been very different to Ponti’s. No such issues.

Hope it works out for you, bro. :thumbup:


Yes, the tourist centre of Berlin is generally well-policed, and you may be able to avoid these kinds of problems if you don't actually live here. But don't try, behind a thin layer of 'compassionate' condescension, to pretend your experience, as a tourist, in any way invalidates mine as someone who lives at the coalface of the migration crisis.


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