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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:07 am 
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Fat Old Git wrote:
Bindi wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:
shanky wrote:
Fair enough.

I’m no Israel apologist but consider how any of us would feel if almost every one of your neighbours refused to recognise your country, a few of them were openly hostile, and at least one had a national doctrine calling for your destruction.

Would you sit back and take that?


Tbf, when you create your country in the middle of someone else's without their permission that is not a terribly surprising outcome.


Imagine if anyone else did that...cough...Australia....cough...NZ....cough....Canada....cough....USA.....etc.etc.


Yep. And they had similar results to start with before coming up with slightly different solutions than we're currently seeing in Israel in what are supposed to be slightly.more enlightened times.


So massive depopulation then?


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:08 am 
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Small Pox blankets for the indigenous?


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:13 am 
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So we've gone from it's ok for Israel to do bad things because others also do bad things to it ok because of colonial actions taken largely in the 18th and 19th century.

I look forward to the introduction of other 18th and 19th century solutions to solve 21st century issues. :thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:31 am 
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Fat Old Git wrote:
So we've gone from it's ok for Israel to do bad things because others also do bad things to it ok because of colonial actions taken largely in the 18th and 19th century.

I look forward to the introduction of other 18th and 19th century solutions to solve 21st century issues. :thumbup:


Let me introduce you to Australia's boat people solution.

Can't believe Lorde has ever availed herself to these fine shores. Maybe she realises that many of the population don't support such horrific government measures, and accordingly, a whole country shouldn't be condemned.


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:31 am 
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Fat Old Git wrote:
So we've gone from it's ok for Israel to do bad things because others also do bad things to it ok because of colonial actions taken largely in the 18th and 19th century.

I look forward to the introduction of other 18th and 19th century solutions to solve 21st century issues. :thumbup:

Shit loads of Countries do this with Capitalism and slavishly following Adam Smith and the Austrian Economists :(


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:45 am 
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Bindi wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:
So we've gone from it's ok for Israel to do bad things because others also do bad things to it ok because of colonial actions taken largely in the 18th and 19th century.

I look forward to the introduction of other 18th and 19th century solutions to solve 21st century issues. :thumbup:


Let me introduce you to Australia's boat people solution.

Can't believe Lorde has ever availed herself to these fine shores. Maybe she realises that many of the population don't support such horrific government measures, and accordingly, a whole country shouldn't be condemned.


Let the whatboutery commence! How dare Lorde hold an opinion on something before all world problems are resolved.


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:54 am 
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Turbogoat wrote:
Bindi wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:
So we've gone from it's ok for Israel to do bad things because others also do bad things to it ok because of colonial actions taken largely in the 18th and 19th century.

I look forward to the introduction of other 18th and 19th century solutions to solve 21st century issues. :thumbup:


Let me introduce you to Australia's boat people solution.

Can't believe Lorde has ever availed herself to these fine shores. Maybe she realises that many of the population don't support such horrific government measures, and accordingly, a whole country shouldn't be condemned.


Let the whatboutery commence! How dare Lorde hold an opinion on something before all world problems are resolved.


Criticizing (some) of the actions of the State of Israel will see you labelled as anti Semite very quickly.


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:56 am 
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La soule wrote:
Turbogoat wrote:
Bindi wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:
So we've gone from it's ok for Israel to do bad things because others also do bad things to it ok because of colonial actions taken largely in the 18th and 19th century.

I look forward to the introduction of other 18th and 19th century solutions to solve 21st century issues. :thumbup:


Let me introduce you to Australia's boat people solution.

Can't believe Lorde has ever availed herself to these fine shores. Maybe she realises that many of the population don't support such horrific government measures, and accordingly, a whole country shouldn't be condemned.


Let the whatboutery commence! How dare Lorde hold an opinion on something before all world problems are resolved.


Criticizing (some) of the actions of the State of Israel will see you labelled as anti Semite very quickly.


It's ok, I criticized Russia quite a bit for their actions in Russia, which the article in the OP demanded also be done, so I'm safe. In fact, I really have a lot of catching up to do.


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:59 am 
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Bindi wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:
So we've gone from it's ok for Israel to do bad things because others also do bad things to it ok because of colonial actions taken largely in the 18th and 19th century.

I look forward to the introduction of other 18th and 19th century solutions to solve 21st century issues. :thumbup:


Let me introduce you to Australia's boat people solution.

Can't believe Lorde has ever availed herself to these fine shores. Maybe she realises that many of the population don't support such horrific government measures, and accordingly, a whole country shouldn't be condemned.


She's not condemning or punishing the whole country. She's using the opportunity to highlight Israels actions against the Palestinians. It's part of how these things work.


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:04 pm 
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Turbogoat wrote:
Bindi wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:
So we've gone from it's ok for Israel to do bad things because others also do bad things to it ok because of colonial actions taken largely in the 18th and 19th century.

I look forward to the introduction of other 18th and 19th century solutions to solve 21st century issues. :thumbup:


Let me introduce you to Australia's boat people solution.

Can't believe Lorde has ever availed herself to these fine shores. Maybe she realises that many of the population don't support such horrific government measures, and accordingly, a whole country shouldn't be condemned.


Let the whatboutery commence! How dare Lorde hold an opinion on something before all world problems are resolved.


That's not whatboutery. I think the Netanyahu govt are mostly plum. Deserve to be utterly condemned. Refusing to play for your young fans (who in Israel like everywhere else are likely less conservative and less likely to suport Bibi) is just a bizarre way to do it.


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:09 pm 
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Whatabout Australia's treatment of the boat people - yep not whaboutery at all. Gotcha :thumbup:

The purpose of refusing to perform in Israel has been covered already.


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:23 pm 
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Turbogoat wrote:
Whatabout Australia's treatment of the boat people - yep not whaboutery at all. Gotcha :thumbup:

The purpose of refusing to perform in Israel has been covered already.


Is it Whataboutry if it's a direct response?

Bindi wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:
I look forward to the introduction of other 18th and 19th century solutions to solve 21st century issues.


Let me introduce you to Australia's boat people solution.


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:26 pm 
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SASP wrote:
Turbogoat wrote:
Whatabout Australia's treatment of the boat people - yep not whaboutery at all. Gotcha :thumbup:

The purpose of refusing to perform in Israel has been covered already.


Is it Whataboutry if it's a direct response?

Bindi wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:
I look forward to the introduction of other 18th and 19th century solutions to solve 21st century issues.


Let me introduce you to Australia's boat people solution.


Rhetorical whataboutery? FOG wasn't exactly asking for a list of other 21st century issues.


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:31 pm 
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Fat Old Git wrote:
Bindi wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:
shanky wrote:
Fair enough.

I’m no Israel apologist but consider how any of us would feel if almost every one of your neighbours refused to recognise your country, a few of them were openly hostile, and at least one had a national doctrine calling for your destruction.

Would you sit back and take that?


Tbf, when you create your country in the middle of someone else's without their permission that is not a terribly surprising outcome.


Imagine if anyone else did that...cough...Australia....cough...NZ....cough....Canada....cough....USA.....etc.etc.


Yep. And they had similar results to start with before coming up with slightly different solutions than we're currently seeing in Israel in what are supposed to be slightly.more enlightened times.


FoG given that colonialism is off the table can you please quickly run through the slightly different solutions that allowed the mentioned countries (the US etc.) to address the problem of setting up a country in another peoples' country.


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:32 pm 
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Turbogoat wrote:
SASP wrote:
Turbogoat wrote:
Whatabout Australia's treatment of the boat people - yep not whaboutery at all. Gotcha :thumbup:

The purpose of refusing to perform in Israel has been covered already.


Is it Whataboutry if it's a direct response?

Bindi wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:
I look forward to the introduction of other 18th and 19th century solutions to solve 21st century issues.


Let me introduce you to Australia's boat people solution.


Rhetorical whataboutery? FOG wasn't exactly asking for a list of other 21st century issues.


FOG basically asked for some whataboutery and got it.


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:33 pm 
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Turbogoat wrote:
SASP wrote:
Turbogoat wrote:
Whatabout Australia's treatment of the boat people - yep not whaboutery at all. Gotcha :thumbup:

The purpose of refusing to perform in Israel has been covered already.


Is it Whataboutry if it's a direct response?

Bindi wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:
I look forward to the introduction of other 18th and 19th century solutions to solve 21st century issues.


Let me introduce you to Australia's boat people solution.


Rhetorical whataboutery? FOG wasn't exactly asking for a list of other 21st century issues.


He was asking for solutions and got a 20th century example. His suggestion that this is 21st Century issue is incorrect as the conflict has been going on far longer than the 21st century.


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:35 pm 
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Fine, whatever floats your boatpeople.


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:38 pm 
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SASP wrote:

He was asking for solutions and got a 20th century example. His suggestion that this is 21st Century issue is incorrect as the conflict has been going on far longer than the 21st century.


Yes and no.... the creation of Israel is a 20th century act, regardless of arguments about who was there whenever a thousand or more years back. Carving off a slice of Palestine and giving it to the Jewish people was always going to cause grief. We all know this. What's the difference between that and colonial acts of invasion 200 years previously? Weapons technology for a start. Hasn't that proven to be a winner for...

oh, Israel. No wonder the Palestinians are pissed.

Shall we talk about 1967 borders now?


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:41 pm 
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guy smiley wrote:
SASP wrote:

He was asking for solutions and got a 20th century example. His suggestion that this is 21st Century issue is incorrect as the conflict has been going on far longer than the 21st century.


Yes and no.... the creation of Israel is a 20th century act, regardless of arguments about who was there whenever a thousand or more years back. Carving off a slice of Palestine and giving it to the Jewish people was always going to cause grief. We all know this. What's the difference between that and colonial acts of invasion 200 years previously? Weapons technology for a start. Hasn't that proven to be a winner for...

oh, Israel. No wonder the Palestinians are pissed.

Shall we talk about 1967 borders now?


The whole of the middle east was carved up, and in a classic whataboutery, there's a fair number of the other countries that were established in a similar time, that went for the full on genocide route, well within the 20th century.

The Ottomans had a fair old go at some genocides themselves, whilst occupying the area.

67 borders being the ones that were established before multiple countries surrounding Israel decided to try and re-establish the borders so they wouldn't include Israel at all?


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:53 pm 
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Yeah. Them. Those borders.


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:54 pm 
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guy smiley wrote:
Yeah. Them. Those borders.


What about them?


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:56 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:56 pm 
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Raggs wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
SASP wrote:

He was asking for solutions and got a 20th century example. His suggestion that this is 21st Century issue is incorrect as the conflict has been going on far longer than the 21st century.


Yes and no.... the creation of Israel is a 20th century act, regardless of arguments about who was there whenever a thousand or more years back. Carving off a slice of Palestine and giving it to the Jewish people was always going to cause grief. We all know this. What's the difference between that and colonial acts of invasion 200 years previously? Weapons technology for a start. Hasn't that proven to be a winner for...

oh, Israel. No wonder the Palestinians are pissed.

Shall we talk about 1967 borders now?


The whole of the middle east was carved up, and in a classic whataboutery, there's a fair number of the other countries that were established in a similar time, that went for the full on genocide route, well within the 20th century.

The Ottomans had a fair old go at some genocides themselves, whilst occupying the area.

67 borders being the ones that were established before multiple countries surrounding Israel decided to try and re-establish the borders so they wouldn't include Israel at all?


Agreed. No one seems to know what exactly Europe was supposed to do with all the jews who were left homeless / stateless after the second world war either. People who were given up to the Germans and in many cases forced onto trains by their neighbours were supposed to just go home?

Edit : not that it really matters now, Israel exists and will continue to despite the loony left


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:26 pm 
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In 1948, Palestine was intended to be carved up along ethno-religious grounds.

Before that, it wasn’t a single country belonging to any one homogenous group (unlike, arguably the pacific nations).

That style of map-drawing was a feature of the era. The same practice gave us India-Pakistan, possibly the most bloody and tragic experience of partition in modern memory.

Is it Pakistan’s fault that they were awarded a homeland? Is it India’s? Is it Britain’s?



Is this the wrong thread for these analogies?


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:29 pm 
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shanky wrote:
In 1948, Palestine was intended to be carved up along ethno-religious grounds.

Before that, it wasn’t a single country belonging to any one homogenous group (unlike, arguably the pacific nations).

That style of map-drawing was a feature of the era. The same practice gave us India-Pakistan, possibly the most bloody and tragic experience of partition in modern memory.

Is it Pakistan’s fault that they were awarded a homeland? Is it India’s? Is it Britain’s?



Is this the wrong thread for these analogies?


No, sums up the mess that is Africa/middle East pretty well.


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:57 pm 
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I doubt that any border anywhere was established at any time without a lot of blood and good deal of what we call injustice.

It is in the nature of forming countries and nations that internal difference is stamped on until it either pulls the aggregate apart again or ebbs away, though that can take centuries.

Israel's misfortune in that regard is one of recency more than objective moral worsetude.


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:42 am 
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Given it’s well demonstrated that Israel is treated differently by wealthy westerners in regards to their wrongdoing than many other more culpable nations, the question of why is interesting.

I don’t buy the anti-semetism argument; I doubt Lorde and and most of the others in that movement dislike Jews enough to target them in particular. I actually think it’s a different form of racism; rich mostly white Western countries, of which Israel is one, are held to a higher standard because they “should be more enlightened” and “should know better”. When actual genocide happens in somewhere like Burma or Rwanda, there’s a bit of handwringing, and it quickly gets forgotten in the West. It’s almost like there’s a collective “that’s what they do over there”. Quite sad IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:47 am 
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This....this is a thread about Lorde?
Image

Are Lorde threads the new haka threads?


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:54 am 
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Santa wrote:

FoG given that colonialism is off the table can you please quickly run through the slightly different solutions that allowed the mentioned countries (the US etc.) to address the problem of setting up a country in another peoples' country.

Providing the franchise is one solution.


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:56 am 
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sewa wrote:
Agreed. No one seems to know what exactly Europe was supposed to do with all the jews who were left homeless / stateless after the second world war either. People who were given up to the Germans and in many cases forced onto trains by their neighbours were supposed to just go home?

Edit : not that it really matters now, Israel exists and will continue to despite the loony left

If Truman was really concerned he could have used them to turn Arizona into a garden paradise.


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:16 am 
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Bindi wrote:
Given it’s well demonstrated that Israel is treated differently by wealthy westerners in regards to their wrongdoing than many other more culpable nations, the question of why is interesting.

I don’t buy the anti-semetism argument; I doubt Lorde and and most of the others in that movement dislike Jews enough to target them in particular. I actually think it’s a different form of racism; rich mostly white Western countries, of which Israel is one, are held to a higher standard because they “should be more enlightened” and “should know better”. When actual genocide happens in somewhere like Burma or Rwanda, there’s a bit of handwringing, and it quickly gets forgotten in the West. It’s almost like there’s a collective “that’s what they do over there”. Quite sad IMO.


Because as a Democracy they have a slight possibility of being susceptible to public opinion, particularly their own domestic public who may get sick of their favourite popstars refusing to play in their country because of their politics.
There was fuckall point in boycotting Iraq because Saddam gassed the Kurds, he wouldn't have given a shit what a teeny popstar would have thought of him, and even less what her Iraqi fanbase may have thought of him.
Israel, as a modern, functioning democracy however may have a slight, tiny, one in a million chance of actually listening to their voters if enough of them get sick of being a pariah state.


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:06 am 
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Turbogoat wrote:
Bindi wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:
So we've gone from it's ok for Israel to do bad things because others also do bad things to it ok because of colonial actions taken largely in the 18th and 19th century.

I look forward to the introduction of other 18th and 19th century solutions to solve 21st century issues. :thumbup:


Let me introduce you to Australia's boat people solution.

Can't believe Lorde has ever availed herself to these fine shores. Maybe she realises that many of the population don't support such horrific government measures, and accordingly, a whole country shouldn't be condemned.


Let the whatboutery commence! How dare Lorde hold an opinion on something before all world problems are resolved.



On the whataboutery, I don't think it applied to Lorde, she's a young girl who has (despite her hype) been coddled in the music system groomed to be a star. It's only natural that a young person who, like us all, wants to see a better world will criticise Israel because Israel criticism is quite abundant. What's a young person likely to learn from their environments? It's unfair to do whataboutery directly to her because she's juts saying what a young person is likely to be exposed to. She means well but probably is just following the crowd without realising it.

On the wider "Why do so many political groups, particularly on the left, single out Israel?" question then whataboutry is fair game IMO. Especially (certainly in british politics) criticism of Israel from politically active figures or groups end up being from bodies who have within them more then a wiff of antisemitism or seem to happen to embrace people who have made clear antisemitic statements. the fact this seem to be given a pass or ignored by people who would otherwise publicaly slam anyone else who singled out a ethic or religious group as racist or hate crimes or why their anger isn't or is rarely directed at the wider body of human rights abuses is a valid question here.


Last edited by eldanielfire on Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:21 am 
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Yeah it's a sad truth that many people/countries/groups will quite cheerfully put the boot into Israel for less altruistic motives than any real sympathy for the Palestinians. Hell the other countries in the region don't really have any finer feelings for the Pals other than the fact that they're making Arabs look bad. This obviously doesn't excuse Israel persecuting Palestinians however.

Luckily, most people here are doing it for much more pure motives (I hope), and don't hold back criticizing other nations that also persecute a sizable portion of their country. People here have been pissed off at the indiscriminate bombing of Syrians, the slaughter of Iraqis, the persecution of Rohingyas, the mocking of the Brummies.... and can therefore also criticize Israel with a clear conscience.


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:25 am 
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Turbogoat wrote:
Yeah it's a sad truth that many people/countries/groups will quite cheerfully put the boot into Israel for less altruistic motives than any real sympathy for the Palestinians. Hell the other countries in the region don't really have any finer feelings for the Pals other than the fact that they're making Arabs look bad. This obviously doesn't excuse Israel persecuting Palestinians however.

Luckily, most people here are doing it for much more pure motives (I hope), and don't hold back criticizing other nations that also persecute a sizable portion of their country. People here have been pissed off at the indiscriminate bombing of Syrians, the slaughter of Iraqis, the persecution of Rohingyas, the mocking of the Brummies.... and can therefore also criticize Israel with a clear conscience.


Pics or it didn't happen.


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:57 am 
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I was in Birmingham yesterday and tbh I saw no persecution at all.
In fact I was very impressed with the infra structure especially New Street train station.
Apart from the disgusting accents it wasn't too bad.


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:21 am 
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c69 wrote:
Exactly how much aid does Israel get from America?
Why exactly does America have to bankroll such a modern state?


About USD3.2 billion per year or nearly USD 130 billion since the foundation of the state.


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:20 pm 
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The Sun God wrote:
c69 wrote:
Exactly how much aid does Israel get from America?
Why exactly does America have to bankroll such a modern state?


About USD3.2 billion per year or nearly USD 130 billion since the foundation of the state.


Feck me thats a lot of cash funneled away from the american taxpayer.


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:27 pm 
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Heymans wrote:
The Sun God wrote:
c69 wrote:
Exactly how much aid does Israel get from America?
Why exactly does America have to bankroll such a modern state?


About USD3.2 billion per year or nearly USD 130 billion since the foundation of the state.


Feck me thats a lot of cash funneled away from the american taxpayer.

That's a lot of bullets, bombs, tanks and white phosphorous tbh.


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:28 pm 
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Turbogoat wrote:
Yeah it's a sad truth that many people/countries/groups will quite cheerfully put the boot into Israel for less altruistic motives than any real sympathy for the Palestinians. Hell the other countries in the region don't really have any finer feelings for the Pals other than the fact that they're making Arabs look bad. This obviously doesn't excuse Israel persecuting Palestinians however.

Luckily, most people here are doing it for much more pure motives (I hope), and don't hold back criticizing other nations that also persecute a sizable portion of their country. People here have been pissed off at the indiscriminate bombing of Syrians, the slaughter of Iraqis, the persecution of Rohingyas, the mocking of the Brummies.... and can therefore also criticize Israel with a clear conscience.


Indeed, no one seems aware that the other Arab countries have left them in refugee camps for 50 years. 1.5 million people, entire generations most of whom grew up in Lebanon, Jordan etc and have never stepped foot in Palestine left in legal limbo by their mates who are so concerned about them


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 Post subject: Re: Lorde is a bigot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:48 pm 
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c69 wrote:
Heymans wrote:
The Sun God wrote:
c69 wrote:
Exactly how much aid does Israel get from America?
Why exactly does America have to bankroll such a modern state?


About USD3.2 billion per year or nearly USD 130 billion since the foundation of the state.


Feck me thats a lot of cash funneled away from the american taxpayer.

That's a lot of bullets, bombs, tanks and white phosphorous tbh.



Which they are required to substantively buy from the USA in order to qualify for the aid. Hence, a subsidy for the defence industry

Same for Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Syria etc etc


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