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Not really. Nick Cave just told the anti-Israel lot to get f**ked. Didn't do him any great harm.CrazyIslander wrote:It was a lose-lose situation.
Nick Cave says he will 'make a stand' against artists boycotting Israel
Nick Cave, the dark poet of rock, is taking a "principled stand" against activists working to ostracise the Jewish state and credited the boycotters on Sunday with his decision to act against those trying to "bully" and "silence" musicians and go ahead with his shows here.
The Australian artist whose music can be both melancholic and uplifting simultaneously is well loved in Israel and both shows were almost sold out.
At a press conference, Cave spoke about the logistical challenges of playing Israel then said musicians also endure pressure from an international movement known as BDS that seeks to ostracize Israel by lobbying corporations, artists and academic institutions to sever ties with the Jewish state.
He said record producer Brian Eno had asked him three years ago to sign a boycott list. "On a very intuitive level I did not want to sign that list, there was something that stunk to me about that list," Cave said.
"And then it kind of occurred to me that I'm not signing the list but I'm also not playing Israel and that just felt to me cowardly really."
Cave said "it suddenly became very important to make a stand against those people that are trying to shut down musicians, to bully musicians to censor musicians and to silence musicians."
He said after much thought and consideration he decided to play Israel on his tour this year.
"So at the end of the day there are two reasons why I am here. One is that I love Israel and I love Israeli people and two is to make a principled stand against anyone who wants to censor and silence musicians," Cave said.
"So really you could say in a way that the BDS made me play Israel," he said.
The boycott movement, also called the BDS movement, advocates boycotts, divestment and sanctions against Israel in what its supporters say is a nonviolent way to promote the Palestinian cause.
It has urged businesses, artists and universities to sever ties with Israel and includes thousands of volunteers around the world.
Israel says the campaign goes beyond fighting its occupation of territory Palestinians claim for a state and often masks a more far-reaching aim to delegitimise or destroy the Jewish state.
Some BDS critics accuse the movement of anti-Semitism because it singles out Israel for boycott while overlooking the Palestinian part in the conflict and ignoring other disputes around the world.
For fans Nick Cave is rock royalty with decades of influential albums.
BDS has enlisted the support of Pink Floyd frontman Roger Waters and has persuaded some performers like Elvis Costello and Lauren Hill against playing.
A long list of artists including Metallica, Madonna, Elton John, Rihanna, Ozzy Osbourne and others ignore the pressure and continue to perform in Israel.
Yup.guy smiley wrote:I'm a massive fan of Nick Cave, but this
strikes me as an example of the emotive rhetoric regularly used to support the Israeli cause. Who is shutting down, censoring or silencing? All of those artists who have played in Israel are still free to perform elsewhere. None of them have suffered career threatening reactions.Cave said "it suddenly became very important to make a stand against those people that are trying to shut down musicians, to bully musicians to censor musicians and to silence musicians."
He's talking through a hole in his head.
JB1981 wrote:This is serious, we all remember the 2016 war with Israel.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/artic ... d=11773841
It was our greatest victory since the World Cup.
I wish we could just fence off the entire middle east, including those clowns in Israel.Haven't heard that one. Is it on Spotify?guy smiley wrote: He's talking through a hole in his head.
Yeah Radiohead told them to fudge off too. Thom York's position was that musicians should be able to make their own moral judgements about things rather than having to accept the morality of the mob. That seems like the adult view. The mob requires people to accept their moral judgement or be evil.Man In Black wrote:Good for Nick Cave.
I didn't know they had to.Santa wrote: Thom York's position was that musicians should be able to make their own moral judgements about things rather than having to accept the morality of the mob.
Exactly. Tell them to get f**ked and just play the Israel gig. After all Lordes Israeli fan base haven't anything wrong. Why should they be punished?Santa wrote:Yeah Radiohead told them to fudge off too. Thom York's position was that musicians should be able to make their own moral judgements about things rather than having to accept the morality of the mob. That seems like the adult view. The mob requires people to accept their moral judgement or be evil.Man In Black wrote:Good for Nick Cave.
The bloke has a point about Israel and Russia too. Why is Israel worse then Russia?
They aren't, Russia doesn't seem to be a target for these social media bullies though. Does playing in the US mean your support T rump and the yanks foreign policy?Santa wrote:Yeah Radiohead told them to fudge off too. Thom York's position was that musicians should be able to make their own moral judgements about things rather than having to accept the morality of the mob. That seems like the adult view. The mob requires people to accept their moral judgement or be evil.Man In Black wrote:Good for Nick Cave.
The bloke has a point about Israel and Russia too. Why is Israel worse then Russia?
I think the reasoning is the same as that for flour bombs at Eden Park. YMMV.booji boy wrote:Exactly. Tell them to get f**ked and just play the Israel gig. After all Lordes Israeli fan base haven't anything wrong. Why should they be punished?
I thought that sort of situation was why The Dixie Chicks went to Europe.harvey wilson wrote:They aren't, Russia doesn't seem to be a target for these social media bullies though. Does playing in the US mean your support T rump and the yanks foreign policy?
Santa wrote:
The bloke has a point about Israel and Russia too. Why is Israel worse then Russia?
You mistake my point. I agree with you. Which is why I pointing out how selective and inconsistent these these campaigns are and how dubious the real motivations are.guy smiley wrote:eldanielfire wrote:Santa wrote:
The bloke has a point about Israel and Russia too. Why is Israel worse then Russia?
As the Labour party have shown, you get away from the public anti-Israel publicity and away from the public that some of the people on the ground are clearly motivated by outright anti-semitism, which in some lefty leaning groups seems to be an acceptable form of bigotry.
Don't be silly. Israel and Russia can't be equated like this. Public sentiment regarding Russia is strong but western governments aren't indulging in actions regarding the country that stir up public sentiment in the same way they are with Israel.
It's a ridiculous and stupid argument to try and excuse the actions of one country by saying another is just as bad.
What a load of rubbish. What actions are governments indulging in in relation to Israel other than voting against them at the UN? Lorde is applying selective morality here based on internet outrage.guy smiley wrote:eldanielfire wrote:Santa wrote:
The bloke has a point about Israel and Russia too. Why is Israel worse then Russia?
As the Labour party have shown, you get away from the public anti-Israel publicity and away from the public that some of the people on the ground are clearly motivated by outright anti-semitism, which in some lefty leaning groups seems to be an acceptable form of bigotry.
Don't be silly. Israel and Russia can't be equated like this. Public sentiment regarding Russia is strong but western governments aren't indulging in actions regarding the country that stir up public sentiment in the same way they are with Israel.
It's a ridiculous and stupid argument to try and excuse the actions of one country by saying another is just as bad.
Ima just puttin’ this out thereguy smiley wrote:I'm a massive fan of Nick Cave, but this
ClCave said "it suddenly became very important to make a stand against those people that are trying to shut down musicians, to bully musicians to censor musicians and to silence musicians."
strikes me as an example of the emotive rhetoric regularly used to support the Israeli cause. Who is shutting down, censoring or silencing? All of those artists who have played in Israel are still free to perform elsewhere. None of them have suffered career threatening reactions.
He's talking through a hole in his head.
It's ridiculous to excuse the actions of one, because another is as bad, or worse, but it's perhaps legitimate to ask why so many people seem to want to take a much larger stand over one than the other (be it the BDS or not performing shows). Personally I don't think much of it is anti-semitism for most participants, but I do think it is driven onwards by anti-semitic groups. Much like I suspect most flat earthers aren't rabid christians, but I do think it's driven on by such groups.guy smiley wrote:eldanielfire wrote:Santa wrote:
The bloke has a point about Israel and Russia too. Why is Israel worse then Russia?
As the Labour party have shown, you get away from the public anti-Israel publicity and away from the public that some of the people on the ground are clearly motivated by outright anti-semitism, which in some lefty leaning groups seems to be an acceptable form of bigotry.
Don't be silly. Israel and Russia can't be equated like this. Public sentiment regarding Russia is strong but western governments aren't indulging in actions regarding the country that stir up public sentiment in the same way they are with Israel.
It's a ridiculous and stupid argument to try and excuse the actions of one country by saying another is just as bad.
For your first paragraph, the US just did a fairly big action by recognising Jerusalem as the Israeli capital.Santa wrote:What a load of rubbish. What actions are governments indulging in in relation to Israel other than voting against them at the UN? Lorde is applying selective morality here based on internet outrage.guy smiley wrote:eldanielfire wrote:Santa wrote:
The bloke has a point about Israel and Russia too. Why is Israel worse then Russia?
As the Labour party have shown, you get away from the public anti-Israel publicity and away from the public that some of the people on the ground are clearly motivated by outright anti-semitism, which in some lefty leaning groups seems to be an acceptable form of bigotry.
Don't be silly. Israel and Russia can't be equated like this. Public sentiment regarding Russia is strong but western governments aren't indulging in actions regarding the country that stir up public sentiment in the same way they are with Israel.
It's a ridiculous and stupid argument to try and excuse the actions of one country by saying another is just as bad.
Nobody is excusing Israel's actions because of what Russia is doing. Not one person. The point, the blindingly obvious point, is that Israel and Russia are doing dodgy things (and Russia arguably worse in the grand scheme of things) but Lorde only sees fit to boycott one. And that is because all of the outrage is directed at one.
I think it a very long bow to stribg to conflate criticism of Israels treatment of the Palestinian people, and a boycott because of it, with any sort o antisemitism. In fact, doing so weakens orher legitimate arguments. And I thin that is exactly what this group have done here and they need to be called out for it.Raggs wrote:It's ridiculous to excuse the actions of one, because another is as bad, or worse, but it's perhaps legitimate to ask why so many people seem to want to take a much larger stand over one than the other (be it the BDS or not performing shows). Personally I don't think much of it is anti-semitism for most participants, but I do think it is driven onwards by anti-semitic groups. Much like I suspect most flat earthers aren't rabid christians, but I do think it's driven on by such groups.guy smiley wrote:eldanielfire wrote:Santa wrote:
The bloke has a point about Israel and Russia too. Why is Israel worse then Russia?
As the Labour party have shown, you get away from the public anti-Israel publicity and away from the public that some of the people on the ground are clearly motivated by outright anti-semitism, which in some lefty leaning groups seems to be an acceptable form of bigotry.
Don't be silly. Israel and Russia can't be equated like this. Public sentiment regarding Russia is strong but western governments aren't indulging in actions regarding the country that stir up public sentiment in the same way they are with Israel.
It's a ridiculous and stupid argument to try and excuse the actions of one country by saying another is just as bad.
Guy Smiley said "Western governments". Most of them voted against the US move.Farva wrote:For your first paragraph, the US just did a fairly big action by recognising Jerusalem as the Israeli capital.Santa wrote:What a load of rubbish. What actions are governments indulging in in relation to Israel other than voting against them at the UN? Lorde is applying selective morality here based on internet outrage.guy smiley wrote:eldanielfire wrote:Santa wrote:
The bloke has a point about Israel and Russia too. Why is Israel worse then Russia?
As the Labour party have shown, you get away from the public anti-Israel publicity and away from the public that some of the people on the ground are clearly motivated by outright anti-semitism, which in some lefty leaning groups seems to be an acceptable form of bigotry.
Don't be silly. Israel and Russia can't be equated like this. Public sentiment regarding Russia is strong but western governments aren't indulging in actions regarding the country that stir up public sentiment in the same way they are with Israel.
It's a ridiculous and stupid argument to try and excuse the actions of one country by saying another is just as bad.
Nobody is excusing Israel's actions because of what Russia is doing. Not one person. The point, the blindingly obvious point, is that Israel and Russia are doing dodgy things (and Russia arguably worse in the grand scheme of things) but Lorde only sees fit to boycott one. And that is because all of the outrage is directed at one.
Second paragraph, we dont really know Lordes motivs. She has elected to support the Palestinian cause and cancel an event. She may not feel as strongly on the Russian issue. Who are we to decide what is a bigger issue for her?
His mouth? How odd.guy smiley wrote:I'm a massive fan of Nick Cave, but this
strikes me as an example of the emotive rhetoric regularly used to support the Israeli cause. Who is shutting down, censoring or silencing? All of those artists who have played in Israel are still free to perform elsewhere. None of them have suffered career threatening reactions.Cave said "it suddenly became very important to make a stand against those people that are trying to shut down musicians, to bully musicians to censor musicians and to silence musicians."
He's talking through a hole in his head.
What hemisphere is the US in? The decision to recognise Jerusalem was a massive one politically. Tere is ongoing fallout from that.Santa wrote:Guy Smiley said "Western governments". Most of them voted against the US move.Farva wrote:For your first paragraph, the US just did a fairly big action by recognising Jerusalem as the Israeli capital.Santa wrote:What a load of rubbish. What actions are governments indulging in in relation to Israel other than voting against them at the UN? Lorde is applying selective morality here based on internet outrage.guy smiley wrote:eldanielfire wrote:
As the Labour party have shown, you get away from the public anti-Israel publicity and away from the public that some of the people on the ground are clearly motivated by outright anti-semitism, which in some lefty leaning groups seems to be an acceptable form of bigotry.
Don't be silly. Israel and Russia can't be equated like this. Public sentiment regarding Russia is strong but western governments aren't indulging in actions regarding the country that stir up public sentiment in the same way they are with Israel.
It's a ridiculous and stupid argument to try and excuse the actions of one country by saying another is just as bad.
Nobody is excusing Israel's actions because of what Russia is doing. Not one person. The point, the blindingly obvious point, is that Israel and Russia are doing dodgy things (and Russia arguably worse in the grand scheme of things) but Lorde only sees fit to boycott one. And that is because all of the outrage is directed at one.
Second paragraph, we dont really know Lordes motivs. She has elected to support the Palestinian cause and cancel an event. She may not feel as strongly on the Russian issue. Who are we to decide what is a bigger issue for her?
And yeah, maybe she'll be convinced to change her mind after an internet pile on about the evils of Russia and the creation of a group specifically to boycott Russia. I won't hold my breath though. You go right ahead.
Well done for apparently not reading my post. I agree that for most people it has nothing to do with anti-semitism, but why is the Israeli cause so much more publicized than seemingly any other?Farva wrote:I think it a very long bow to stribg to conflate criticism of Israels treatment of the Palestinian people, and a boycott because of it, with any sort o antisemitism. In fact, doing so weakens orher legitimate arguments. And I thin that is exactly what this group have done here and they need to be called out for it.Raggs wrote:It's ridiculous to excuse the actions of one, because another is as bad, or worse, but it's perhaps legitimate to ask why so many people seem to want to take a much larger stand over one than the other (be it the BDS or not performing shows). Personally I don't think much of it is anti-semitism for most participants, but I do think it is driven onwards by anti-semitic groups. Much like I suspect most flat earthers aren't rabid christians, but I do think it's driven on by such groups.
Is it security council resolutions? I know it holds the record from the United Nations Human Rights Council, it's pretty hilarious when you look at it, but does tend to make sense when you see the normal council makeup, it's about as sensible as, I don't know, putting Saudi Arabia on the UN panel for womens rights...guy smiley wrote:Israel holds a 'record' of sorts as the subject of more UN Security Council resolutions than the rest of the world combined. I suggest that anti semitism is a very large and distasteful re herring used continually to excuse one of the world's poorest behaving nations. I'm not excusing the wrongs of other countries here. I'm suggesting that, when we discuss Israel and it's regional politics, the actions of other nations are irrelevant unless they are directly involved.Raggs wrote: It's seemingly true pretty much everywhere, that Israel is always the bigger news story,
No other nation is working so hard to persecute Palestine. No other nation attracts such heavy duty support from the US.
There's your triggers for strong public sentiment. Crying about Russia doesn't negate any of it.
Yep, I suspect both sides drive it more and more into the spotlight.Farva wrote:And that was expanding on your point. Its not just the antisemites its also the Zionist lobby that cause the issues.
https://youtu.be/I_OA_TU_XD0Raggs wrote:Yep, I suspect both sides drive it more and more into the spotlight.Farva wrote:And that was expanding on your point. Its not just the antisemites its also the Zionist lobby that cause the issues.