Planet Rugby Forum

shanky wrote:Fair enough.

I’m no Israel apologist but consider how any of us would feel if almost every one of your neighbours refused to recognise your country, a few of them were openly hostile, and at least one had a national doctrine calling for your destruction.

Would you sit back and take that?

We tend to just laugh at Grievous when he gets carried away like that.

Turbogoat wrote:

shanky wrote:Fair enough.

I’m no Israel apologist but consider how any of us would feel if almost every one of your neighbours refused to recognise your country, a few of them were openly hostile, and at least one had a national doctrine calling for your destruction.

Would you sit back and take that?

We tend to just laugh at Grievous when he gets carried away like that.

Very good.

Flametop wrote:

The Native wrote:

Flametop wrote:I must admit I’d never heard of this person before.
I’m assuming all her shows are now all sold out?

If so, we’ll played.

What? Excuse me? She only has the #1 rated album by NME. FFS...

What’s NME?

It’s a chat room on the dark web.

In a tangentle post just to say i keep seeing this thread title and think it says 'Lester Piggott'.

Must by dyslexic.

KG

The irony is that Israel is the only country in the ME that she would be able to perform a concert in.

Still, her music is awful.

acenas of the day wrote:

englishchief wrote:

Uncle Fester wrote:Boycotts helped defeat Apartheid 1.0 and can do the same with it's offspring.

The difference being black south africans didn't stab or shoot white soldiers every week. It's hard to be sympathetic for the palestinians. Also jews are the majority in Israel, it's not minority rule.

Soldiers in general are terrorists. They deserve to be stabbed as they mainly only kill

So because I was conscripted when I lived in a different country, I deserve to be killed?

englishchief wrote:

acenas of the day wrote:

englishchief wrote:

Uncle Fester wrote:Boycotts helped defeat Apartheid 1.0 and can do the same with it's offspring.

The difference being black south africans didn't stab or shoot white soldiers every week. It's hard to be sympathetic for the palestinians. Also jews are the majority in Israel, it's not minority rule.

Soldiers in general are terrorists. They deserve to be stabbed as they mainly only kill

So because I was conscripted when I lived in a different country, I deserve to be killed?

Maybe not killed per se, but I’d be pretty OK with someone chopping your fingers off so you couldn’t type on a keyboard any more.

guy smiley wrote:
acenas vs The Boss...

apocryphal, man.

Collision Point face/off!

CrazyIslander wrote:The underlying issue was that Israel waa created by people who simply invaded Palestine and took over.

Lets assume you are correct (I don't but for the sake of argument). Your solution to this issue now is what?

shanky wrote:Fair enough.

I’m no Israel apologist but consider how any of us would feel if almost every one of your neighbours refused to recognise your country, a few of them were openly hostile, and at least one had a national doctrine calling for your destruction.

Would you sit back and take that?

A bit like that girl at work who is always getting dumped badly. Maybe it's not them. Maybe it's her?

Uncle Fester wrote:

shanky wrote:Fair enough.

I’m no Israel apologist but consider how any of us would feel if almost every one of your neighbours refused to recognise your country, a few of them were openly hostile, and at least one had a national doctrine calling for your destruction.

Would you sit back and take that?

A bit like that girl at work who is always getting dumped badly. Maybe it's not them. Maybe it's her?

You do know who those neighbour's are? Iran, Saudi, Egypt etc. Wonderful peaceful democratic countries, definitely don't hate the gays or women

sewa wrote:

Uncle Fester wrote:

shanky wrote:Fair enough.

I’m no Israel apologist but consider how any of us would feel if almost every one of your neighbours refused to recognise your country, a few of them were openly hostile, and at least one had a national doctrine calling for your destruction.

Would you sit back and take that?

A bit like that girl at work who is always getting dumped badly. Maybe it's not them. Maybe it's her?

You do know who those neighbour's are? Iran, Saudi, Egypt etc. Wonderful peaceful democratic countries, definitely don't hate the gays or women

Do those countries and their allies all get a vote on who the next UN Resolution is to target?
If they did it would seem unfair.

Stu Wilsons gloves wrote:The irony is that Israel is the only country in the ME that she would be able to perform a concert in.

Pretty sure she has played Dubai at some point.

SASP wrote:

sewa wrote:

Uncle Fester wrote:

shanky wrote:Fair enough.

I’m no Israel apologist but consider how any of us would feel if almost every one of your neighbours refused to recognise your country, a few of them were openly hostile, and at least one had a national doctrine calling for your destruction.

Would you sit back and take that?

A bit like that girl at work who is always getting dumped badly. Maybe it's not them. Maybe it's her?

You do know who those neighbour's are? Iran, Saudi, Egypt etc. Wonderful peaceful democratic countries, definitely don't hate the gays or women

Do those countries and their allies all get a vote on who the next UN Resolution is to target?
If they did it would seem unfair.

For now in the UNHRC Egypt is a member, other particular highlights could be Qatar, Rwanda, Cuba, Kyrgyzstan, Burundi, Congo.

You can see the historical members on their wiki page.

SASP wrote:

sewa wrote:

Uncle Fester wrote:

shanky wrote:Fair enough.

I’m no Israel apologist but consider how any of us would feel if almost every one of your neighbours refused to recognise your country, a few of them were openly hostile, and at least one had a national doctrine calling for your destruction.

Would you sit back and take that?

A bit like that girl at work who is always getting dumped badly. Maybe it's not them. Maybe it's her?

You do know who those neighbour's are? Iran, Saudi, Egypt etc. Wonderful peaceful democratic countries, definitely don't hate the gays or women

Do those countries and their allies all get a vote on who the next UN Resolution is to target?
If they did it would seem unfair.

Another resolution from the same UN who have Saudi on the human rights council. It reminds me of Father Ted. Is there anything to be said for another mass?

Whilst it's fairly evident Israel acts in barbaric ways to the Palestinians and continues with illegal settlements it's pretty hypocritical of Lorde considering she's happy enough to visit Russia. I think her music is pretty bad, but fair play to her for taking a stand.

sewa wrote:

Uncle Fester wrote:

shanky wrote:Fair enough.

I’m no Israel apologist but consider how any of us would feel if almost every one of your neighbours refused to recognise your country, a few of them were openly hostile, and at least one had a national doctrine calling for your destruction.

Would you sit back and take that?

A bit like that girl at work who is always getting dumped badly. Maybe it's not them. Maybe it's her?

You do know who those neighbour's are? Iran, Saudi, Egypt etc. Wonderful peaceful democratic countries, definitely don't hate the gays or women

Also Lebanon and Jordan.
Israel levelled Lebanon in 2006 as collective punishment for the actions of Hezbollah. How does that help anybody?

Uncle Fester wrote:

sewa wrote:
You do know who those neighbour's are? Iran, Saudi, Egypt etc. Wonderful peaceful democratic countries, definitely don't hate the gays or women

Also Lebanon and Jordan.
Israel levelled Lebanon in 2006 as collective punishment for the actions of Hezbollah. How does that help anybody?

The attacks from Hezbollah were greatly diminished as the Lebanese population realized you can't let nutters in your midst indiscriminately attack another country using you as a human shield indefinitely.

Apparently there's a move to paint Shmuley Boteach as a bit of a Nazi lover in order to undermine the ad, which is pretty revolting. He might he a penoid - my wife knows a little about him from his time at Oxford and reckons he's a piece of work - but he ain't no Nazi lover from what I can see. There are probably plenty of good ways to critique his actions without going the full JCR.

sewa wrote:

Uncle Fester wrote:

sewa wrote:
You do know who those neighbour's are? Iran, Saudi, Egypt etc. Wonderful peaceful democratic countries, definitely don't hate the gays or women

Also Lebanon and Jordan.
Israel levelled Lebanon in 2006 as collective punishment for the actions of Hezbollah. How does that help anybody?

The attacks from Hezbollah were greatly diminished as the Lebanese population realized you can't let nutters in your midst indiscriminately attack another country using you as a human shield indefinitely.

Which is why they are in government there I suppose.

Man In Black wrote:

Bullettyme wrote:Whilst it's fairly evident Israel acts in barbaric ways to the Palestinians and continues with illegal settlements it's pretty hypocritical of Lorde considering she's happy enough to visit Russia. I think her music is pretty bad, but fair play to her for taking a stand.

It was scheduled in Tel Aviv, the most liberal city in the most liberal country in the ME, and those attending the concerts were unlikely to be rabid right-wing settlers and Orthodox religious nuts. She might have been better off performing and making some sort of appeal to the large liberal population in Israel that's supportive of the Palestinian cause. As it is she's ended up looking like a hypocrite who has succumbed to internet pressure.

Maybe. Maybe not. It's also attracted a shit tonne of media attention to Israel and their treatment of Palestinians however. If she genuinely felt she was making a stand, fair play to her.

Man In Black wrote:

Bullettyme wrote:Whilst it's fairly evident Israel acts in barbaric ways to the Palestinians and continues with illegal settlements it's pretty hypocritical of Lorde considering she's happy enough to visit Russia. I think her music is pretty bad, but fair play to her for taking a stand.

It was scheduled in Tel Aviv, the most liberal city in the most liberal country in the ME, and those attending the concerts were unlikely to be rabid right-wing settlers and Orthodox religious nuts. She might have been better off performing and making some sort of appeal to the large liberal population in Israel that's supportive of the Palestinian cause. As it is she's ended up looking like a hypocrite who has succumbed to internet pressure.

I'm sure being able to point out perceived inconsistency in a 20yr old popstars world view must be particularly satisfying.

On the other hand, it does indicate that as a democratic country, Israel is susceptible to public opinion and that if a pack of voting age people are suddenly denied the privilege of seeing Lorde in concert, they might to put pressure on their own political leadership to stop oppressing a group of people. No other country in the region can boast of that. Russia can't claim that. Democracy rules.

Bullettyme wrote:

sewa wrote:

Uncle Fester wrote:

sewa wrote:
You do know who those neighbour's are? Iran, Saudi, Egypt etc. Wonderful peaceful democratic countries, definitely don't hate the gays or women

Also Lebanon and Jordan.
Israel levelled Lebanon in 2006 as collective punishment for the actions of Hezbollah. How does that help anybody?

The attacks from Hezbollah were greatly diminished as the Lebanese population realized you can't let nutters in your midst indiscriminately attack another country using you as a human shield indefinitely.

Which is why they are in government there I suppose.

As I said the attacks have greatly diminished if not stopped completely, who is winning their (more than likely rigged) elections is neither here nor there. Their Iranian puppet masters have their own domestic issues to deal with right now too so its a win-win for Israel.

Uncle Fester wrote:Israel levelled Lebanon in 2006 as collective punishment for the actions of Hezbollah. How does that help anybody?

All they are doing with continued aggression toward Lebanon is turning former supporters against them. Especially Maronites.

Turbogoat wrote:

Man In Black wrote:

Bullettyme wrote:Whilst it's fairly evident Israel acts in barbaric ways to the Palestinians and continues with illegal settlements it's pretty hypocritical of Lorde considering she's happy enough to visit Russia. I think her music is pretty bad, but fair play to her for taking a stand.

It was scheduled in Tel Aviv, the most liberal city in the most liberal country in the ME, and those attending the concerts were unlikely to be rabid right-wing settlers and Orthodox religious nuts. She might have been better off performing and making some sort of appeal to the large liberal population in Israel that's supportive of the Palestinian cause. As it is she's ended up looking like a hypocrite who has succumbed to internet pressure.

I'm sure being able to point out perceived inconsistency in a 20yr old popstars world view must be particularly satisfying.

On the other hand, it does indicate that as a democratic country, Israel is susceptible to public opinion and that if a pack of voting age people are suddenly denied the privilege of seeing Lorde in concert, they might to put pressure on their own political leadership to stop oppressing a group of people. No other country in the region can boast of that. Russia can't claim that. Democracy rules.

Christ, imagine if Lorde is the one who brings peace to the Middle East. You Kiwis will be insufferable.

Man In Black wrote:

Turbogoat wrote:

Man In Black wrote:

Bullettyme wrote:Whilst it's fairly evident Israel acts in barbaric ways to the Palestinians and continues with illegal settlements it's pretty hypocritical of Lorde considering she's happy enough to visit Russia. I think her music is pretty bad, but fair play to her for taking a stand.

It was scheduled in Tel Aviv, the most liberal city in the most liberal country in the ME, and those attending the concerts were unlikely to be rabid right-wing settlers and Orthodox religious nuts. She might have been better off performing and making some sort of appeal to the large liberal population in Israel that's supportive of the Palestinian cause. As it is she's ended up looking like a hypocrite who has succumbed to internet pressure.

I'm sure being able to point out perceived inconsistency in a 20yr old popstars world view must be particularly satisfying.

On the other hand, it does indicate that as a democratic country, Israel is susceptible to public opinion and that if a pack of voting age people are suddenly denied the privilege of seeing Lorde in concert, they might to put pressure on their own political leadership to stop oppressing a group of people. No other country in the region can boast of that. Russia can't claim that. Democracy rules.

So Lorde denying the liberal population the chance to see her live, may shock them into an uprising against their government's attitude towards the Palestinian minority? She's fiddling with Israel's domestic politics all the way from her vantage point in Devonport.

That's some 4D chess right there. Nicely played Ella.

That's actually the point of these boycotts etc... to make the local population less accepting of what their gubmint does in their name. This is why there's not much point in doing it in countries that are dictatorships, or are otherwise undemocratic.

Sandstorm wrote:

Turbogoat wrote:

Man In Black wrote:

Bullettyme wrote:Whilst it's fairly evident Israel acts in barbaric ways to the Palestinians and continues with illegal settlements it's pretty hypocritical of Lorde considering she's happy enough to visit Russia. I think her music is pretty bad, but fair play to her for taking a stand.

It was scheduled in Tel Aviv, the most liberal city in the most liberal country in the ME, and those attending the concerts were unlikely to be rabid right-wing settlers and Orthodox religious nuts. She might have been better off performing and making some sort of appeal to the large liberal population in Israel that's supportive of the Palestinian cause. As it is she's ended up looking like a hypocrite who has succumbed to internet pressure.

I'm sure being able to point out perceived inconsistency in a 20yr old popstars world view must be particularly satisfying.

On the other hand, it does indicate that as a democratic country, Israel is susceptible to public opinion and that if a pack of voting age people are suddenly denied the privilege of seeing Lorde in concert, they might to put pressure on their own political leadership to stop oppressing a group of people. No other country in the region can boast of that. Russia can't claim that. Democracy rules.

Christ, imagine if Lorde is the one who brings peace to the Middle East. You Kiwis will be insufferable.

Worship the Lorde, have no other Lordes before her, and do not take the name of the Lorde (your God) in vain?

sewa wrote:

CrazyIslander wrote:The underlying issue was that Israel waa created by people who simply invaded Palestine and took over.

Lets assume you are correct (I don't but for the sake of argument). Your solution to this issue now is what?

Chop it straight in 1/2 ala Solomon?

Man In Black wrote:

Turbogoat wrote:

Man In Black wrote:

Bullettyme wrote:Whilst it's fairly evident Israel acts in barbaric ways to the Palestinians and continues with illegal settlements it's pretty hypocritical of Lorde considering she's happy enough to visit Russia. I think her music is pretty bad, but fair play to her for taking a stand.

It was scheduled in Tel Aviv, the most liberal city in the most liberal country in the ME, and those attending the concerts were unlikely to be rabid right-wing settlers and Orthodox religious nuts. She might have been better off performing and making some sort of appeal to the large liberal population in Israel that's supportive of the Palestinian cause. As it is she's ended up looking like a hypocrite who has succumbed to internet pressure.

I'm sure being able to point out perceived inconsistency in a 20yr old popstars world view must be particularly satisfying.

On the other hand, it does indicate that as a democratic country, Israel is susceptible to public opinion and that if a pack of voting age people are suddenly denied the privilege of seeing Lorde in concert, they might to put pressure on their own political leadership to stop oppressing a group of people. No other country in the region can boast of that. Russia can't claim that. Democracy rules.

So Lorde denying the liberal population the chance to see her live, may shock them into an uprising against their government's attitude towards the Palestinian minority? She's fiddling with Israel's domestic politics all the way from her vantage point in Devonport.

That's some 4D chess right there. Nicely played Ella.

I don't think you know how boycotts work.

How do boycotts work? Not very well it seems.

http://freakonomics.com/podcast/do-boyc ... o-podcast/

sorCrer wrote:

sewa wrote:

CrazyIslander wrote:The underlying issue was that Israel waa created by people who simply invaded Palestine and took over.

Lets assume you are correct (I don't but for the sake of argument). Your solution to this issue now is what?

Chop it straight in 1/2 ala Solomon?

They (and you know who they is) won't accept any sort of partition that might look fair.

They want townships for Palestinians and to keep up the pretence that those are nominally independent.

They absolutely don't want everybody in the one state because that would mean they lose their majority in a few years time.

sewa wrote:

Uncle Fester wrote:

sewa wrote:
You do know who those neighbour's are? Iran, Saudi, Egypt etc. Wonderful peaceful democratic countries, definitely don't hate the gays or women

Also Lebanon and Jordan.
Israel levelled Lebanon in 2006 as collective punishment for the actions of Hezbollah. How does that help anybody?

The attacks from Hezbollah were greatly diminished as the Lebanese population realized you can't let nutters in your midst indiscriminately attack another country using you as a human shield indefinitely.

Short term thinking. A stronger Lebanon would be better able to police Hezbollah. Their weakened state is what allowed Hezbollah get so entrenched in the first place.

Uncle Fester wrote:

sorCrer wrote:

sewa wrote:

CrazyIslander wrote:The underlying issue was that Israel waa created by people who simply invaded Palestine and took over.

Lets assume you are correct (I don't but for the sake of argument). Your solution to this issue now is what?

Chop it straight in 1/2 ala Solomon?

They (and you know who they is) won't accept any sort of partition that might look fair.

They want townships for Palestinians and to keep up the pretence that those are nominally independent.

They absolutely don't want everybody in the one state because that would mean they lose their majority in a few years time.

Build the wall! And get Mexico to pay for it.

Turbogoat wrote:

Man In Black wrote:

Turbogoat wrote:

Man In Black wrote:

Bullettyme wrote:Whilst it's fairly evident Israel acts in barbaric ways to the Palestinians and continues with illegal settlements it's pretty hypocritical of Lorde considering she's happy enough to visit Russia. I think her music is pretty bad, but fair play to her for taking a stand.

It was scheduled in Tel Aviv, the most liberal city in the most liberal country in the ME, and those attending the concerts were unlikely to be rabid right-wing settlers and Orthodox religious nuts. She might have been better off performing and making some sort of appeal to the large liberal population in Israel that's supportive of the Palestinian cause. As it is she's ended up looking like a hypocrite who has succumbed to internet pressure.

I'm sure being able to point out perceived inconsistency in a 20yr old popstars world view must be particularly satisfying.

On the other hand, it does indicate that as a democratic country, Israel is susceptible to public opinion and that if a pack of voting age people are suddenly denied the privilege of seeing Lorde in concert, they might to put pressure on their own political leadership to stop oppressing a group of people. No other country in the region can boast of that. Russia can't claim that. Democracy rules.

So Lorde denying the liberal population the chance to see her live, may shock them into an uprising against their government's attitude towards the Palestinian minority? She's fiddling with Israel's domestic politics all the way from her vantage point in Devonport.

That's some 4D chess right there. Nicely played Ella.

That's actually the point of these boycotts etc... to make the local population less accepting of what their gubmint does in their name. This is why there's not much point in doing it in countries that are dictatorships, or are otherwise undemocratic.

Damn, need to get on the blower and inform Lorde no point in boycotting Trump's Merica then

Uncle Fester wrote:

sewa wrote:

Uncle Fester wrote:

sewa wrote:
You do know who those neighbour's are? Iran, Saudi, Egypt etc. Wonderful peaceful democratic countries, definitely don't hate the gays or women

Also Lebanon and Jordan.
Israel levelled Lebanon in 2006 as collective punishment for the actions of Hezbollah. How does that help anybody?

The attacks from Hezbollah were greatly diminished as the Lebanese population realized you can't let nutters in your midst indiscriminately attack another country using you as a human shield indefinitely.

Short term thinking. A stronger Lebanon would be better able to police Hezbollah. Their weakened state is what allowed Hezbollah get so entrenched in the first place.

The ethnic/religious makeup of Lebanon combined with all the countries trying to maintain influence there make a united and strong Lebanon unlikely.

Uncle Fester wrote:

sorCrer wrote:

sewa wrote:

CrazyIslander wrote:The underlying issue was that Israel waa created by people who simply invaded Palestine and took over.

Lets assume you are correct (I don't but for the sake of argument). Your solution to this issue now is what?

Chop it straight in 1/2 ala Solomon?

They (and you know who they is) won't accept any sort of partition that might look fair.

They want townships for Palestinians and to keep up the pretence that those are nominally independent.

They absolutely don't want everybody in the one state because that would mean they lose their majority in a few years time.

If, by ‘they’, you mean the citizens of Israel, then the facts are that the majority want a 2-state solution

dinsdale wrote:The ethnic/religious makeup of Lebanon combined with all the countries trying to maintain influence there make a united and strong Lebanon unlikely.

The national identity is growing stronger over time. Lebanese in the diaspora are far less divided along religious lines than they were a decade or two ago.

Saudi moves re: Hariri seemed to unify the country too. Calls for him to return came from across party and religious lines.

Bullettyme wrote:Saudi moves re: Hariri seemed to unify the country too. Calls for him to return came from across party and religious lines.

Bowens wrote:

Bullettyme wrote:Saudi moves re: Hariri seemed to unify the country too. Calls for him to return came from across party and religious lines.

Plus the French Pissed in the saudi's corn flakes