Planet Rugby Forum

Perfectly ok to argue that Lorde made the wrong decision but equally so about Radiohead, surely?

The fact is that there are Israeli citizens who support the boycott. I haven't read the whole thread but there is solid precedent for such boycotts dating back to those undertaken in the days of Israel's then ally, the RSA, where the likes of Desmond Tutu support the present boycott, as they did the cultural boycott of RSA back in the days of apartheid.

It should be noted that in 2011, Israel even passed an "Anti Boycott Law" opening up those within Israel expressing support (nb not violent support!) for boycott, to civil action by those adversely affected. I would call that pretty offensive (yes, whatabouterists, I know there's worse elsewhere) and tending to stregthen the grounds for calling for boycott. Interestingly, earlier last year, Israel also introduced a law that bars entry to foreigners who have in the past expressed support for Israel. Lorde would therefore be susceptible to being refused admission to Israel even if she had changed her mind as she was being urged.

Yep, I proudly identify as western liberal. Accordingly imo Radiohead as well as Lorde are to my mind entitled to express their opinions and to perform or not perform in Israel (or even Russia) as they decide. The 20 year old Lorde's opinion seems to me so much healthier than the Knesset's laws trying to obstruct the free expression of opinion and non-violent boycott.

The very fact that these laws were passed also indicates to me that those here arguing that boycotts are a waste of time do not have their views shared by the Knesset.

for a kiwi bird, she isn't bad tbf, bigot or not

semi Croatian Poach however

backrow wrote:for a kiwi bird, she isn't bad tbf, bigot or not

semi Croatian Poach however

How did I know your reply would be dumb before I clicked...

Bowens wrote:

backrow wrote:for a kiwi bird, she isn't bad tbf, bigot or not

semi Croatian Poach however

How did I know your reply would be dumb before I clicked...

look, you can defend your bigot mutts all you like, I was actually sort of complimenting her gracious visage

shereblue wrote:Perfectly ok to argue that Lorde made the wrong decision but equally so about Radiohead, surely?

The fact is that there are Israeli citizens who support the boycott. I haven't read the whole thread but there is solid precedent for such boycotts dating back to those undertaken in the days of Israel's then ally, the RSA, where the likes of Desmond Tutu support the present boycott, as they did the cultural boycott of RSA back in the days of apartheid.

It should be noted that in 2011, Israel even passed an "Anti Boycott Law" opening up those within Israel expressing support (nb not violent support!) for boycott, to civil action by those adversely affected. I would call that pretty offensive (yes, whatabouterists, I know there's worse elsewhere) and tending to stregthen the grounds for calling for boycott. Interestingly, earlier last year, Israel also introduced a law that bars entry to foreigners who have in the past expressed support for Israel. Lorde would therefore be susceptible to being refused admission to Israel even if she had changed her mind as she was being urged.

Yep, I proudly identify as western liberal. Accordingly imo Radiohead as well as Lorde are to my mind entitled to express their opinions and to perform or not perform in Israel (or even Russia) as they decide. The 20 year old Lorde's opinion seems to me so much healthier than the Knesset's laws trying to obstruct the free expression of opinion and non-violent boycott.

The very fact that these laws were passed also indicates to me that those here arguing that boycotts are a waste of time do not have their views shared by the Knesset.

I assume you are aware of the background of that legislation? At the time Israel had massive protests against the cost of living, occupy wall street type nonsense with hippies pitching tents, drinking beer and shagging in the middle of the cities boulevards. A great time to be alive

No, I wasn't aware.

Many artists of varying types value freedom of expression very highly. I happen to place similar high value on freedom of expression. I may disagree with what you say but I would defend to the death your right to say it (attrib. Voltaire).

The fact that liberal, hippie types were antisocial is not going to make State intolerance of peaceful, internal and external, dissent any more attractive to them. Quite the reverse.

Afaik, artists of liberal sensibility, are not in the main anti semitic let alone bent on the destruction of Israel.

Consistent with valuing freedom of expression, I would clearly oppose refusing platforms to Israeli performances here which is similarly illiberal.

shereblue wrote: I may disagree with what you say but I would defend to the death your right to say it (attrib. Voltaire).

Evelyn Beatrice Hall, apparently.

Unfortunately, the quote isn’t real — or at least, it’s not really Voltaire. It comes from a 1906 biography by Evelyn Beatrice Hall, in which it was intended to represent a summary of his thinking on free speech issues. “I did not mean to imply,” she wrote later, “that Voltaire used these words verbatim.”
https://studentactivism.net/2015/01/08/ ... at-either/

Bindi wrote:

Fat Old Git wrote:So we've gone from it's ok for Israel to do bad things because others also do bad things to it ok because of colonial actions taken largely in the 18th and 19th century.

I look forward to the introduction of other 18th and 19th century solutions to solve 21st century issues.

Let me introduce you to Australia's boat people solution.

Can't believe Lorde has ever availed herself to these fine shores. Maybe she realises that many of the population don't support such horrific government measures, and accordingly, a whole country shouldn't be condemned.

You keep make posts as if they are some kind of rebuttal but that actually support my point.

I point out that it's not surprising that someone who creates their country in someone else's ends up surrounded by enemies and you introduce to me to colonial countries where the initially colony ended up surrounded by enemies.

I make what should have been a fairly obvious point that just because something was the norm in the 18th and 19th century, that shouldn't excuse that sort of behavior now, and you point out an example of that sort of behavior that has drawn condemnation both within and without of the country that is doing it. I.e, a solution that hasn't been excused just because it may have been acceptable in the past.

Re Lorde having played in OZ, I doubt very much that anyone would have used her concert as a sign of support for Australia's boat people solution. Nor were there people from within Oz calling for her to boycott it because of it. That probably has more to do with it than any realization that many of the population don't support such horrific government measures, and accordingly, a whole country shouldn't be condemned.

Bindi wrote:Given it’s well demonstrated that Israel is treated differently by wealthy westerners in regards to their wrongdoing than many other more culpable nations, the question of why is interesting.

I don’t buy the anti-semetism argument; I doubt Lorde and and most of the others in that movement dislike Jews enough to target them in particular. I actually think it’s a different form of racism; rich mostly white Western countries, of which Israel is one, are held to a higher standard because they “should be more enlightened” and “should know better”. When actual genocide happens in somewhere like Burma or Rwanda, there’s a bit of handwringing, and it quickly gets forgotten in the West. It’s almost like there’s a collective “that’s what they do over there”. Quite sad IMO.

They are indeed treated differently. Almost no one from the rich mostly white western countries is defending the actions of those in Myanmar or Rwanda. Bad is bad regardless of who's doing it. And Myanmar and Rwanda certainly aren't getting financial and material support for their actions from the west. Although you could argue that the repressive government in Saudi has benefited greatly from trade with the west, including the sale of arms and military equipment, and therefore has received a fair amount of financial and material aid that has indirectly supported the repression of their general population. But it's not quite the same as the "Please take care when bombing civilian areas, oh and is next Thursday OK for your next delivery of cluster bombs?" approach we have often seen with Israel.

However, as TG has pointed out, what might be an effective response to a functioning democracy behaving badly is likely to be quite different to what might be effective against other types of governments.

About as effective as Lorde.

Quite possibly. I'm sure if she had payed there instead peace would have broken out Wyld Stallyn style by the end of the first set.

How did Luke praying deprive thousands of young voters of seeing a concert by their idol because of their politicians being nasty people?

backrow wrote:

Bowens wrote:

backrow wrote:for a kiwi bird, she isn't bad tbf, bigot or not

semi Croatian Poach however

How did I know your reply would be dumb before I clicked...

look, you can defend your bigot mutts all you like, I was actually sort of complimenting her gracious visage

Ah yes, Bowens, the proud Kiwi.

Ghost-Of-Nepia wrote:

backrow wrote:

Bowens wrote:

backrow wrote:for a kiwi bird, she isn't bad tbf, bigot or not

semi Croatian Poach however

How did I know your reply would be dumb before I clicked...

look, you can defend your bigot mutts all you like, I was actually sort of complimenting her gracious visage

Ah yes, Bowens, the proud Kiwi.

Not a keen edge is yeeb

I have no idea who bowens is, presumed he was a kiwi from his whiny bitch post

how is that whining ?

think you lot have been looking at the orcs too much, half Croatian or otherwise

Thousands of artists, writers and musicians refuse to support Lorde.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/m ... l-decision

Santa wrote:Thousands of artists, writers and musicians refuse to support Lorde.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/m ... l-decision

I said I.. I... I... I.... aint gonna play Sun City!

Seneca of the Night wrote:

Santa wrote:Thousands of artists, writers and musicians refuse to support Lorde.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/m ... l-decision

There's something about that list that makes me think that there is an absence of the real movers and shakers in the entertainment industry on it.

I had probably heard of 10 of them.

Santa wrote:

Seneca of the Night wrote:

Santa wrote:Thousands of artists, writers and musicians refuse to support Lorde.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/m ... l-decision

There's something about that list that makes me think that there is an absence of the real movers and shakers in the entertainment industry on it.

I had probably heard of 10 of them.

Are we expected to be surprised at your insularity?

Seneca of the Night wrote:

Santa wrote:

Seneca of the Night wrote:

Santa wrote:Thousands of artists, writers and musicians refuse to support Lorde.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/m ... l-decision

There's something about that list that makes me think that there is an absence of the real movers and shakers in the entertainment industry on it.

I had probably heard of 10 of them.

It was more me zeroing in on the surnames.

I did note that. On a couple of levels. Surprising absence of Ghanaians.

Seneca of the Night wrote:

Santa wrote:

Seneca of the Night wrote:

Santa wrote:Thousands of artists, writers and musicians refuse to support Lorde.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/m ... l-decision

There's something about that list that makes me think that there is an absence of the real movers and shakers in the entertainment industry on it.

I had probably heard of 10 of them.

It was more me zeroing in on the surnames.

You and Santa, poring over a list looking for a way to make it easier for you to dismiss it is all too easy to believe. It's getting a little repetitive though, when you fall back on your own ignorance as your shield though.

Seneca of the Night wrote:

Turbogoat wrote:

Santa wrote:

Seneca of the Night wrote:

Santa wrote:Thousands of artists, writers and musicians refuse to support Lorde.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/m ... l-decision

There's something about that list that makes me think that there is an absence of the real movers and shakers in the entertainment industry on it.

I had probably heard of 10 of them.

Are we expected to be surprised at your insularity?

Hark at desert boy breaking the bank at the casino in Monte Carlo every weekend with the Aga Khan.

Doesn't strike me as the kind of bloke who could work an Aga.

Man In Black wrote:It is not a list of heavy-hitters Turbogoat. About the biggest name is Brian Eno, maybe Mark Ruffalo. Lorde is a bigger name than all of them right now I would say.

I didn't even bother to check tbh, just amused that Seneca and Santa are that eager to dismiss it that they go to the trouble of hunting through it.

Seneca of the Night wrote:

Man In Black wrote:It is not a list of heavy-hitters Turbogoat. About the biggest name is Brian Eno, maybe Mark Ruffalo. Lorde is a bigger name than all of them right now I would say.

You can see it's done a strange circuit through the literary and theatre worlds of Guardian land in London, via a few IRA sympathisers sympatico with the Palestinian cause and been pinged anonymously to a few irrelevant PC bores in LA like Ruffalo.

But the email appears not to have passed go at the likes of creative agencies helmed by, say, Ari Emmanuel. Funny that.

Looks like an anti-semitic anti-anti-semitic email.

Skimming through a list at the bottom of an article that is about the list at the bottom of the article. What strange behaviour.

And you lot haven't heard of those artistes?

Palestines. badum tish

c69 wrote:

Seneca of the Night wrote:

c69 wrote:Just laughing at the resident reactionary expat kiwi jerk circle getting their panties in a bunch

It's been a tough year for you fellas now that the cold hard truth brigade have turned up to kick you in to shape.

Which fellas would that be?

They seem to like lists. Expect one to be published shortly.

c69 wrote:Just laughing at the resident reactionary expat kiwi jerk circle getting their panties in a bunch

And yet another example of the ABs getting inside someone's head, settle down Bro it's all a nightmare ... admittedly ongoing for you.

After three or four listens quite like the new Lorde album

c69 wrote:Just laughing at the resident reactionary expat kiwi jerk circle getting their panties in a bunch

Seneca is european. Not a kiwi. These expats are mostly not nzers and dont represent nz. Pretty funny all the expats seem to have bigot tendencies exxept for alis choice who is an exception to the rule.
Not new zealanders.

backrow wrote:how is that whining ?

think you lot have been looking at the orcs too much, half Croatian or otherwise

Dont you come from england or europe?
Our ladies are much prettier. Especially ones of maori, asian hertitage. The ones that come from countries like england tend to be overweight. Just like white women in general.

acenas of the day wrote:

backrow wrote:how is that whining ?

think you lot have been looking at the orcs too much, half Croatian or otherwise

Dont you come from england or europe?
Our ladies are much prettier. Especially ones of maori, asian hertitage. The ones that come from countries like england tend to be overweight. Just like white women in general.

You really are the one for throwing around racist comments aren't you?

acenas of the day wrote:

backrow wrote:how is that whining ?

think you lot have been looking at the orcs too much, half Croatian or otherwise

Dont you come from england or europe?
Our ladies are much prettier. Especially ones of maori, asian hertitage. The ones that come from countries like england tend to be overweight. Just like white women in general.

Maybe the honkies in NZ tbf

I wish, at least superficially, that NZ had been colonised by the Scandinavians or Eastern Europeans instead of the hideously ugly British

naki wrote:I wish, at least superficially, that NZ had been colonised by the Scandinavians or Eastern Europeans instead of the hideously ugly British

That theory is a wee bit ruined by Dannevirke and Woodville.

The UK has it's share of stunners, well the ones I see on the beaches in Oz anyway - but they seem to go crazy with the makeup and bee stung lips (and of course have no beach etiquette).

acenas of the day wrote:

c69 wrote:Just laughing at the resident reactionary expat kiwi jerk circle getting their panties in a bunch

Seneca is european. Not a kiwi. These expats are mostly not nzers and dont represent nz. Pretty funny all the expats seem to have bigot tendencies exxept for alis choice who is an exception to the rule.
Not new zealanders.

Pretty much agree with this except the "Seneca is European" part.

naki wrote:I wish, at least superficially, that NZ had been colonised by the Scandinavians or Eastern Europeans instead of the hideously ugly British

the good Genes got off at Botany Bay tbf

backrow wrote:

naki wrote:I wish, at least superficially, that NZ had been colonised by the Scandinavians or Eastern Europeans instead of the hideously ugly British

the good Genes got off at Botany Bay tbf

Ah, those famous beauties; indigent criminals and the Irish

guy smiley wrote:

naki wrote:

backrow wrote:

naki wrote:I wish, at least superficially, that NZ had been colonised by the Scandinavians or Eastern Europeans instead of the hideously ugly British

the good Genes got off at Botany Bay tbf

Ah, those famous beauties; indigent criminals and the Irish

The bad genes stayed at home, of course.

The great Genes went to America. Gene Kelly, Gene Krupa, Gene Vincent...

naki wrote:

backrow wrote:

naki wrote:I wish, at least superficially, that NZ had been colonised by the Scandinavians or Eastern Europeans instead of the hideously ugly British

the good Genes got off at Botany Bay tbf

Ah, those famous beauties; indigent criminals and the Irish

lolz at a kiwi mocking the Irish re looks and Genes.
irish chicks can be amazingly hot, all pale skin, green eyes, and good airbags