Planet Rugby Forum

First class tonight.

Any other practitioners? Not sure what to expect as one of my huge athletic weaknesses is my flexibility (although I do work on it, it's still shit - and I am 40 years old as of a couple of days ago).

I think BJJ and Western Boxing (which I also do) is a pretty handy combination. I figure that if I keep going for a few years and add a Mauy-Thai style low-kick to the that repertoire and I'd be pretty handy in a scrap (certainly don't claim to be at the moment). In fact, I don't think there's much else I could do. Apart from the bullshit fake martial arts, they're the only three things on offer here. They do a bit of submission wrestling at the BJJ center, but the focus is definitely on ju jitsu. Pretty sure there's also a few Judo schools around, but working full time and do weights training, BJJ and boxing is going to more than fill the schedule.

I figure that if I keep going for a few years and add a Mauy-Thai style low-kick to the that repertoire and I'd be pretty handy in a scrap (certainly don't claim to be at the moment). In fact, I don't think there's much else I could do.

Don't bother going to a martial arts class if you're wanting to be better at scraping, they're all sports and actual fighting is an entirely different thing, the adrenaline and fear can take away everything you've ever done in a martial arts class.

crash 669 wrote:

I figure that if I keep going for a few years and add a Mauy-Thai style low-kick to the that repertoire and I'd be pretty handy in a scrap (certainly don't claim to be at the moment). In fact, I don't think there's much else I could do.

Don't bother going to a martial arts class if you're wanting to be better at scraping, they're all sports and actual fighting is an entirely different thing, the adrenaline and fear can take away everything you've ever done in a martial arts class.

I'm not really in a position to say, since I've never been in a fight, but I know the jiujitsu classes I did at uni (not brazilian), specifically ran certain exercises to help drill things into you. The fear isn't quite the same, but being stood in front of a panel of black belts, with 100 other students around, whilst being "attacked" every few seconds with a variety of attacks, all of which are being genuinely aimed to hit you (safest way), certainly had my adrenaline and fear going, and the exhaustion soon sets in, by which point you do have to force yourself to keep reacting in the correct way.

any form of Martial art that has some pressure point / ground work, is useful in a real fight. Pure striking Martial arts can get quickly found out once someone manages to tie them up, and also in those its 'bigger is better'

I have done in my distant past a few years & belts at Kung Fu, Judo and Hapkido, and they all have their usefulness (like you I was and still am extremely inflexible). The internet is full of weirdos saying 'method X is a load of rubbish' when in truth they will all give you some sort of skills.

Mog The Almighty wrote:First class tonight.

Any other practitioners? Not sure what to expect as one of my huge athletic weaknesses is my flexibility (although I do work on it, it's still shit - and I am 40 years old as of a couple of days ago).

I think BJJ and Western Boxing (which I also do) is a pretty handy combination. I figure that if I keep going for a few years and add a Mauy-Thai style low-kick to the that repertoire and I'd be pretty handy in a scrap (certainly don't claim to be at the moment). In fact, I don't think there's much else I could do. Apart from the bullshit fake martial arts, they're the only three things on offer here. They do a bit of submission wrestling at the BJJ center, but the focus is definitely on ju jitsu. Pretty sure there's also a few Judo schools around, but working full time and do weights training, BJJ and boxing is going to more than fill the schedule.

Why re-invent the wheel? Krav Maga seems to be the ideal option

Raggs wrote:

crash 669 wrote:

I figure that if I keep going for a few years and add a Mauy-Thai style low-kick to the that repertoire and I'd be pretty handy in a scrap (certainly don't claim to be at the moment). In fact, I don't think there's much else I could do.

Don't bother going to a martial arts class if you're wanting to be better at scraping, they're all sports and actual fighting is an entirely different thing, the adrenaline and fear can take away everything you've ever done in a martial arts class.

I'm not really in a position to say, since I've never been in a fight, but I know the jiujitsu classes I did at uni (not brazilian), specifically ran certain exercises to help drill things into you. The fear isn't quite the same, but being stood in front of a panel of black belts, with 100 other students around, whilst being "attacked" every few seconds with a variety of attacks, all of which are being genuinely aimed to hit you (safest way), certainly had my adrenaline and fear going, and the exhaustion soon sets in, by which point you do have to force yourself to keep reacting in the correct way.

Well let me rephrase - it doesn't hurt to have a decent martial arts background if you're attacked, but in an actual combat situation it's 99% what your fight or flight situation tells you to do. Unless you're doing quite high level martial arts training and really competing, you're not getting anything approaching a comparable level of stress.

Not that one shouldn't do martial arts for fitness and fun, I started Tae Kwon Do when I was 10 and got my black belt when I was 18, and I've been boxing since I was 22, so I obviously fly the flag for combat sports. I just don't think one should go in with the attitude that they'll make you better at fighting.

crash 669 wrote:

I figure that if I keep going for a few years and add a Mauy-Thai style low-kick to the that repertoire and I'd be pretty handy in a scrap (certainly don't claim to be at the moment). In fact, I don't think there's much else I could do.

Don't bother going to a martial arts class if you're wanting to be better at scraping, they're all sports and actual fighting is an entirely different thing, the adrenaline and fear can take away everything you've ever done in a martial arts class.

That's just not true of any proper martial art like boxing and BJJ.

Anything you do actual real contact sparring in is going to be of huge benefit, not only technically, but it also numbs the fear.

A well trained guy in some proper effective combat sport will murder an untrained pub fighter.

How about doing your best to avoid getting into scraps in the first place?

I guess the same could be said for activities on this here forum...

Listening to experts tells me that BJJ is much more practical in an actual fight than most martial arts. Of course, learning how to throw a punch and sparring will help you immensely too.

Most of the Asian martial arts are garbage in a real fight.

P.S. I felt more confident and less "freeze" in threatening situations just from playing rugby, let alone actual fight training and sparring.

Anything where you're doing something physicality threatening, even in sport or gym, is going to have an effect. I'm not saying it will eliminate fear or that you'll be just as effective as you are in class, just that it will help. And that's just the psychological side. That's before you even count in the effectiveness of the training techniques you're learning.

Put it this way ... if push comes to shove, you're going to be a fudge-load better off (more than the 1% you implied) for having years of combat sports sparring under your belt.

pjm1 wrote:How about doing your best to avoid getting into scraps in the first place?

I guess the same could be said for activities on this here forum...

Well yeah, that goes without saying. I don't plan to go around getting into scraps. Although I've never planned it before and it's happened. If you're confronted by some guy who walks up and grabs your girlfriend on the boobs (this happened to me), you're going to have to do something. Walk away and tell her not to worry about it is an option I guess. Kind of a pussy option though.

Mog The Almighty wrote:

crash 669 wrote:

I figure that if I keep going for a few years and add a Mauy-Thai style low-kick to the that repertoire and I'd be pretty handy in a scrap (certainly don't claim to be at the moment). In fact, I don't think there's much else I could do.

Don't bother going to a martial arts class if you're wanting to be better at scraping, they're all sports and actual fighting is an entirely different thing, the adrenaline and fear can take away everything you've ever done in a martial arts class.

That's just not true of any proper martial art like boxing and BJJ.

Anything you do actual real contact sparring in is going to be of huge benefit, not only technically, but it also numbs the fear.

A well trained guy in some proper effective combat sport will murder an untrained pub fighter.

That's the important point, the level of training required to overcome the fear factor is higher than you get from doing a class or two a week. In boxing for instance, sparring isn't comparable to a fight in the real world. A bout is far more of an accurate combat analogue but then you get into the scenario issue - in a pub brawl blokes won't be standing in front of you bobbing an weaving throwing conventional punches, and quite often having a little training can be worse than having none because it gives a totally unjustified sense of confidence that you can handle a situation you should walk away from.

By far the most valuable skill martial arts can teach you is how not to get into a fight.

Mog The Almighty wrote:

pjm1 wrote:How about doing your best to avoid getting into scraps in the first place?

I guess the same could be said for activities on this here forum...

Well yeah, that goes without saying. I don't plan to go around getting into scraps. Although I've never planned it before and it's happened. If you're confronted by some guy who walks up and grabs your girlfriend on the boobs (this happened to me), you're going to have to do something. Walk away and tell her not to worry about it is an option I guess. Kind of a pussy option though.

I've yet to meet a balanced woman who'd rather her man gets into a fight than have one who turns the other cheek and takes her back home for some "make you feel better" time.

crash 669 wrote:

Mog The Almighty wrote:

crash 669 wrote:

I figure that if I keep going for a few years and add a Mauy-Thai style low-kick to the that repertoire and I'd be pretty handy in a scrap (certainly don't claim to be at the moment). In fact, I don't think there's much else I could do.

Don't bother going to a martial arts class if you're wanting to be better at scraping, they're all sports and actual fighting is an entirely different thing, the adrenaline and fear can take away everything you've ever done in a martial arts class.

That's just not true of any proper martial art like boxing and BJJ.

Anything you do actual real contact sparring in is going to be of huge benefit, not only technically, but it also numbs the fear.

A well trained guy in some proper effective combat sport will murder an untrained pub fighter.

That's the important point, the level of training required to overcome the fear factor is higher than you get from doing a class or two a week. In boxing for instance, sparring isn't comparable to a fight in the real world. A bout is far more of an accurate combat analogue but then you get into the scenario issue - in a pub brawl blokes won't be standing in front of you bobbing an weaving throwing conventional punches, and quite often having a little training can be worse than having none because it gives a totally unjustified sense of confidence that you can handle a situation you should walk away from.

By far the most valuable skill martial arts can teach you is how not to get into a fight.

this

any respectable class will teach you street defence type stuff, and running away / not getting hit from behind is usually preferable.
unfortunately there will always be dickheads who attend classes just to try and better hurt people, and again most respectable classes will try and educate these nutters or weed them out (I have seen a teacher just say please leave my class, here are you fees back and don't come back)

Andalu wrote:Listening to experts tells me that BJJ is much more practical in an actual fight than most martial arts. Of course, learning how to throw a punch and sparring will help you immensely too.

Most of the Asian martial arts are garbage in a real fight.

I always wondered why BJJ is thought to be so useful. It's almost entirely groundwork to my knowledge? Ending up on the floor would be the last thing I'd fancy in a fight (for the same reason that I'd be avoiding kicking, too easy to be on an uneven/slippery surface and losing balance).

What type of almost 40 year old man is going around weighing up the possibility of getting into fights?

Just admit that you're having a mid life crisis.

crash 669 wrote:

Mog The Almighty wrote:

crash 669 wrote:

I figure that if I keep going for a few years and add a Mauy-Thai style low-kick to the that repertoire and I'd be pretty handy in a scrap (certainly don't claim to be at the moment). In fact, I don't think there's much else I could do.

Don't bother going to a martial arts class if you're wanting to be better at scraping, they're all sports and actual fighting is an entirely different thing, the adrenaline and fear can take away everything you've ever done in a martial arts class.

That's just not true of any proper martial art like boxing and BJJ.

Anything you do actual real contact sparring in is going to be of huge benefit, not only technically, but it also numbs the fear.

A well trained guy in some proper effective combat sport will murder an untrained pub fighter.

That's the important point, the level of training required to overcome the fear factor is higher than you get from doing a class or two a week. In boxing for instance, sparring isn't comparable to a fight in the real world. A bout is far more of an accurate combat analogue but then you get into the scenario issue - in a pub brawl blokes won't be standing in front of you bobbing an weaving throwing conventional punches, and quite often having a little training can be worse than having none because it gives a totally unjustified sense of confidence that you can handle a situation you should walk away from.

By far the most valuable skill martial arts can teach you is how not to get into a fight.

I only agree with the last bit, although to be honest, they don't teach that in my boxing gym and I'd be surprised if they teach it in the BJJ class. I did a bit of it training to be a bouncer in University though (I never got into a proper fight working as a bouncer for over a year).

Like I said, I have felt less fearful in threatening situations thanks simply to rugby. One year of solid boxing and BJJ training is realistically going to put anyone who does it properly on another level to an untrained fighter. I'm not sure how many drunken brawls you've seen, or even fights in rugby or whatever, but most of the time it's almost comical. Eyes closed, chin up, throwing wild haymakers that miss by feet. That really is the status quo in my experience (not fighting, witnesssing).

You're hugely over-estimating the abilities of a drunken thug and hugely underestimating the abilities of anyone with some proper training under their belt. Even six months worth. I would expect a decent BJJ blue-belt could take a drunken thug to the ground and have them choked out and immobilized fairly routinely if they were put in a situation where it was that or getting beaten up.

Of course, there's always the chance that you'll draw a psycho with ten years worth of serious street fighting experience under their belt. But even in that case, I can tell you right now I'd much prefer to have even a modest level of combat sports training under my belt than not. I'm not saying it will turn anyone into a magical fighting superhero who never gets beat. I'm just saying it's handy.

Man In Black wrote:

Raggs wrote:

Andalu wrote:Listening to experts tells me that BJJ is much more practical in an actual fight than most martial arts. Of course, learning how to throw a punch and sparring will help you immensely too.

Most of the Asian martial arts are garbage in a real fight.

I always wondered why BJJ is thought to be so useful. It's almost entirely groundwork to my knowledge? Ending up on the floor would be the last thing I'd fancy in a fight (for the same reason that I'd be avoiding kicking, too easy to be on an uneven/slippery surface and losing balance).

You do judo throws and then break their shoulder with a tasty little kimura.

So do judo, or normal jiu jitsu? The latter focusing on being attacked and dealing with it rapidly.

pjm1 wrote:

Mog The Almighty wrote:

pjm1 wrote:How about doing your best to avoid getting into scraps in the first place?

I guess the same could be said for activities on this here forum...

Well yeah, that goes without saying. I don't plan to go around getting into scraps. Although I've never planned it before and it's happened. If you're confronted by some guy who walks up and grabs your girlfriend on the boobs (this happened to me), you're going to have to do something. Walk away and tell her not to worry about it is an option I guess. Kind of a pussy option though.

I've yet to meet a balanced woman who'd rather her man gets into a fight than have one who turns the other cheek and takes her back home for some "make you feel better" time.

This is a fair point. In that situation I actually got snotted. Two king hits from two different guys, from behind. I did break the guys nose. It was about 7 on one. Luckily my rugby team were in the pub across the road and came to the rescue (not swining, just difused it and sent them on their way). Yeah I know, cool story bro. In retrospect it probably would have been better to move on, but I just snapped a bit.

crash 669 wrote:Don't bother going to a martial arts class if you're wanting to be better at scraping, they're all sports and actual fighting is an entirely different thing, the adrenaline and fear can take away everything you've ever done in a martial arts class.

Absolutely. Trying to actually simulate that fear response in training seems to be the key to it at the sharp end.

As an aside I used to help teach a women's self defence class [my late father liked to use me as the assailant] and despite all the fancy moves it came down to really just one thing which was to seek an avenue of escape and NOT to go toe to toe. I'm glad I don't teach this stuff now though given every time there's some fighting to be done on tv you get a slip of a girl reverse punching a 300 pound gorilla through a brick wall. I'm not Jeff.

Andalu wrote:Listening to experts tells me that BJJ is much more practical in an actual fight than most martial arts. Of course, learning how to throw a punch and sparring will help you immensely too.

Most of the Asian martial arts are garbage in a real fight.

I practiced Judo for 10 years (with Sensei Yoriyuki Yamamoto 9th Dan), having been in a couple of real street confrontations I can tell that thanks to Judo I escaped injury free as well as my attackers.

pjm1 wrote:How about doing your best to avoid getting into scraps in the first place?

I guess the same could be said for activities on this here forum...

If you don't remove my girlfriend's photo as your avatar, I'll use my training in the American martial art called "Smith & Wesson".

Raggs wrote:

Andalu wrote:Listening to experts tells me that BJJ is much more practical in an actual fight than most martial arts. Of course, learning how to throw a punch and sparring will help you immensely too.

Most of the Asian martial arts are garbage in a real fight.

I always wondered why BJJ is thought to be so useful. It's almost entirely groundwork to my knowledge? Ending up on the floor would be the last thing I'd fancy in a fight (for the same reason that I'd be avoiding kicking, too easy to be on an uneven/slippery surface and losing balance).

It's super useful. There's a reason that virtually every top MMA fighter these days has extensive grappling experience, even if they're a striker.

Being on your feet is dangerous for many reasons. BJJ teaches to take it to the ground, get past their legs, get into a dominant position (basically a palce where you can hit them and they can't hit you) and then finish it with either a choke/submission or strikes from the ground. It might not look as cool as a Bruce Lee fight, but if I'm ever seriously physically threatened, it's a skill I'd love to have.

The one huge caveat to this whole discussion is when it's not one-on-one. If you're out-numbered, you're pretty much f**ked and if you're only option is to fight, then your only hope is to take as many out as quickly as you can with strikes. But you're sitll probably completely f**ked unless you drop the first guy and the rest have second thoughts.

Bullettyme wrote:What type of almost 40 year old man is going around weighing up the possibility of getting into fights?

Just admit that you're having a mid life crisis.

I'm not looking to get into fights. I'd be happy (and think it's most likely) to live out the rest of my life without ever having to defend myself in a "real" fight.

Doing boxing and BJJ is about fitness, challange and acheiving something, as well as confidence in any physical situations that might be unavoidable.

In an MMA fight I can absolutely see the value of BJJ. In a pub brawl or street mugging, even in the unlikely event of it being 1 on 1 with no mates, I'm still not fancying ending up on the floor. It obviously doesn't hurt to be more skilled in such circumstances, since it could occur, but if I was picking a martial art to learn for self defence (rather than MMA), BJJ would be very low on the list.

Man In Black wrote:You do judo throws and then break their shoulder with a tasty little kimura.

My old man was almost sued for this very thing. He was assaulted by a very big and very pissed off lorry driver who couldn't make his delivery earlier than he wanted - so he decided to throw a cheeky punch at the old man's head as he turned to walk away from the argument. Unluckily for the driver he was dealing with a third dan Judoka who proceeded to slip the punch, take the arm and dislocate the guys shoulder as he planted him face down in the mud. Luckily there were enough witnesses to avoid too much legal drama.

Gospel wrote:

crash 669 wrote:Don't bother going to a martial arts class if you're wanting to be better at scraping, they're all sports and actual fighting is an entirely different thing, the adrenaline and fear can take away everything you've ever done in a martial arts class.

Absolutely. Trying to actually simulate that fear response in training seems to be the key to it at the sharp end.

As an aside I used to help teach a women's self defence class [my late father liked to use me as the assailant] and despite all the fancy moves it came down to really just one thing which was to seek an avenue of escape and NOT to go toe to toe. I'm glad I don't teach this stuff now though given every time there's some fighting to be done on tv you get a slip of a girl reverse punching a 300 pound gorilla through a brick wall. I'm not Jeff.

Obviously I disagree with crash's analysis, although I respect his experience. But I totally agree with the woman's self defence thing. My girlfriend did it for a while and said it was totally useless. They learned some moves that they could only actually do if their training partner actively let them do it. I think a lot of it is based on those old Asian "fake" martial arts. Best advice would probably be to run, and if cornered, scream as loud as possible and go for the nuts if it gets physical.

troglodiet wrote:

pjm1 wrote:How about doing your best to avoid getting into scraps in the first place?

I guess the same could be said for activities on this here forum...

If you don't remove my girlfriend's photo as your avatar, I'll use my training in the American martial art called "Smith & Wesson".

Let me tell you in pure Afrikaans - " Ag jou Colt, man!"

Fight avoidance is the number one skill.
Number two is not being with a woman who will get you killed in order to “defend her honour”

If you do get into a fight with a stranger on the street, chances are he has picked the venue, the “supporters” and the (lack of) referee. It’s basically an away match, a partisan crowd and you haven’t brought any “equipment” that the opposition have.

Best to get out of there.

If you’ve no choice, best to strike hard and then run.
BJJ will obviously help if it goes to ground but it won’t stop you getting kicked/stamped to the head by several others.

Experience with sparring in a contact sport like boxing/Muai Thai will obviously be of help. Not great against knives though.
Again, 400m running will be of use.

Bullettyme wrote:What type of almost 40 year old man is going around weighing up the possibility of getting into fights?

Just admit that you're having a mid life crisis.

He's just prepping for when the Mooslims over-run Sweden.

Mog The Almighty wrote:

Gospel wrote:

crash 669 wrote:Don't bother going to a martial arts class if you're wanting to be better at scraping, they're all sports and actual fighting is an entirely different thing, the adrenaline and fear can take away everything you've ever done in a martial arts class.

Absolutely. Trying to actually simulate that fear response in training seems to be the key to it at the sharp end.

As an aside I used to help teach a women's self defence class [my late father liked to use me as the assailant] and despite all the fancy moves it came down to really just one thing which was to seek an avenue of escape and NOT to go toe to toe. I'm glad I don't teach this stuff now though given every time there's some fighting to be done on tv you get a slip of a girl reverse punching a 300 pound gorilla through a brick wall. I'm not Jeff.

Obviously I disagree with crash's analysis, although I respect his experience. But I totally agree with the woman's self defence thing. My girlfriend did it for a while and said it was totally useless. They learned some moves that they could only actually do if their training partner actively let them do it. I think a lot of it is based on those old Asian "fake" martial arts. Best advice would probably be to run, and if cornered, scream as loud as possible and go for the nuts if it gets physical.

My Dad's class which although wasn't officially sanctioned by the police they were happy with his approach [as several used to attend his main Judo School] was mainly focussed on helping women to react to a threat and not to freeze. So it was about bolstering physical confidence in order to help them to get the fudge out of dodge. This was twenty years ago mind, things might have changed since.

Raggs wrote:In an MMA fight I can absolutely see the value of BJJ. In a pub brawl or street mugging, even in the unlikely event of it being 1 on 1 with no mates, I'm still not fancying ending up on the floor. It obviously doesn't hurt to be more skilled in such circumstances, since it could occur, but if I was picking a martial art to learn for self defence (rather than MMA), BJJ would be very low on the list.

Fair enough.

I'm not trying to be condescending, but this is pretty well known and widely acknowledged stuff. I suggest you download or find copies of the first ever UFC competitions. There were almost no rules - so it basically was a street fight. I think they had rules against biting and eye-gouging and that was pretty much it. The entire point of it in the early days was to see which martial art was most effective in a real fight situation. There were full-on nut-punches allowed, no gloves and no weight-classes. It was very obvious very quickly that all the wrestlers dominated and the entire competition was won by the end by an average-sized BJJ expert.

So no offence, but obviously you just don't know much about fighting. BJJ or some form of proper wrestling should be the first thing on your list. Taking a fight to the ground instantly makes it many factors safer, and if you know what you're doing there, you're going to dominate someone who has no clue.

I do think all women should learn the triangle choke.
Then again..

Gospel wrote:

Mog The Almighty wrote:

Gospel wrote:

crash 669 wrote:Don't bother going to a martial arts class if you're wanting to be better at scraping, they're all sports and actual fighting is an entirely different thing, the adrenaline and fear can take away everything you've ever done in a martial arts class.

Absolutely. Trying to actually simulate that fear response in training seems to be the key to it at the sharp end.

As an aside I used to help teach a women's self defence class [my late father liked to use me as the assailant] and despite all the fancy moves it came down to really just one thing which was to seek an avenue of escape and NOT to go toe to toe. I'm glad I don't teach this stuff now though given every time there's some fighting to be done on tv you get a slip of a girl reverse punching a 300 pound gorilla through a brick wall. I'm not Jeff.

Obviously I disagree with crash's analysis, although I respect his experience. But I totally agree with the woman's self defence thing. My girlfriend did it for a while and said it was totally useless. They learned some moves that they could only actually do if their training partner actively let them do it. I think a lot of it is based on those old Asian "fake" martial arts. Best advice would probably be to run, and if cornered, scream as loud as possible and go for the nuts if it gets physical.

My Dad's class which although wasn't officially sanctioned by the police they were happy with his approach [as several used to attend his main Judo School] was mainly focussed on helping women to react to a threat and not to freeze. So it was about bolstering physical confidence in order to help them to get the fudge out of dodge. This was twenty years ago mind, things might have changed since.

Sounds reasonable to me. As an aside, when I alude to "fake" asain martial arts, I'm obviously not referring to ju-jitsu or Judo. Even if the later is predominatly a combat sport. Its effectiveness in a real scrap is pretty much fact.

Mog The Almighty wrote: I only agree with the last bit, although to be honest, they don't teach that in my boxing gym and I'd be surprised if they teach it in the BJJ class. I did a bit of it training to be a bouncer in University though (I never got into a proper fight working as a bouncer for over a year).

Like I said, I have felt less fearful in threatening situations thanks simply to rugby. One year of solid boxing and BJJ training is realistically going to put anyone who does it properly on another level to an untrained fighter. I'm not sure how many drunken brawls you've seen, or even fights in rugby or whatever, but most of the time it's almost comical. Eyes closed, chin up, throwing wild haymakers that miss by feet. That really is the status quo in my experience (not fighting, witnesssing).

You're hugely over-estimating the abilities of a drunken thug and hugely underestimating the abilities of anyone with some proper training under their belt. Even six months worth. I would expect a decent BJJ blue-belt could take a drunken thug to the ground and have them choked out and immobilized fairly routinely if they were put in a situation where it was that or getting beaten up.

Of course, there's always the chance that you'll draw a psycho with ten years worth of serious street fighting experience under their belt. But even in that case, I can tell you right now I'd much prefer to have even a modest level of combat sports training under my belt than not. I'm not saying it will turn anyone into a magical fighting superhero who never gets beat. I'm just saying it's handy.

On this you're going to have to refer to my earlier point - it doesn't hurt to have martial arts experience, but thinking it's the same as fighting is mistaken.

As I say I have an extensive competitive martial arts background and the best lesson I've ever learnt is to talk your way out and walk away. The one or two times boxing has been remotely useful in real fighting in my life has been for keeping distance, having the assailant in front of me and out of range as I get out of there. The pro boxers I train with all avoid scraps because you have virtually no control over the situation as it unfolds, 15 years of martial arts training didn't stop me getting glassed, shit goes sideways faster than you'd imagine and even BJJ which is very practical, isn't the same on concrete,crowds,wearing normal clothes etc.

The crucial thing to remember is whatever you're training, you're training with someone playing by the same rules - even in MMA which is about as close to a combat analogue as you get (well maybe Krav Maga) has rules, no one's pulling a knife or eye gouging, their mate doesn't run up from behind and clock you with a bottle.

Martial arts are great, they're not the same thing as fighting and it's a mistake to think it is.

I’d have thought the single biggest artificial rule that MMA imposes is the guarantee that the fight will be one on one. Which is what makes it sensible to go to ground.

Mog The Almighty wrote:

Raggs wrote:In an MMA fight I can absolutely see the value of BJJ. In a pub brawl or street mugging, even in the unlikely event of it being 1 on 1 with no mates, I'm still not fancying ending up on the floor. It obviously doesn't hurt to be more skilled in such circumstances, since it could occur, but if I was picking a martial art to learn for self defence (rather than MMA), BJJ would be very low on the list.

Fair enough.

I'm not trying to be condescending, but this is pretty well known and widely acknowledged stuff. I suggest you download or find copies of the first ever UFC competitions. There were almost no rules - so it basically was a street fight. I think they had rules against biting and eye-gouging and that was pretty much it. The entire point of it in the early days was to see which martial art was most effective in a real fight situation. There were full-on nut-punches allowed, no gloves and no weight-classes. It was very obvious very quickly that all the wrestlers dominated and the entire competition was won by the end by an average-sized BJJ expert.

So no offence, but obviously you just don't know much about fighting. BJJ or some form of proper wrestling should be the first thing on your list. Taking a fight to the ground instantly makes it many factors safer, and if you know what you're doing there, you're going to dominate someone who has no clue.

I've seen the early UFC fights, and they're still in a controlled environment on a specially designed surface. No cobbles, bar tables, slippery surfaces, stools etc and guaranteed 1 on 1s, with no risk of mates turning up (and how many people act the billy big bollocks with no mates around), no loose clothing worries about getting your hands or fingers entangled in, no restrictions from wearing tight jeans. Any sporting contest, even the early UFC fights, are still a million miles away from the environment a street fight would be in.

As I've said though, never been in a fight, so perhaps you're right.

Mahoney wrote:I’d have thought the single biggest artificial rule that MMA imposes is the guarantee that the fight will be one on one. Which is what makes it sensible to go to ground.

100% just as in Tae Kwon Do you can do high kicks because no one's going to take you to ground, in MMA you can go to ground because no one's breaking a pool cue over your back or kicking you in the head at the same time.

crash 669 wrote:The crucial thing to remember is whatever you're training, you're training with someone playing by the same rules - even in MMA which is about as close to a combat analogue as you get (well maybe Krav Maga) has rules, no one's pulling a knife or eye gouging, their mate doesn't run up from behind and clock you with a bottle.

Only plastic, but bottle training started at yellow belt for me, as did wooden coshes and plastic knives, unfortunately due to injuries, I never reached brown belt, where the real fun stuff started (live blades, bar stools, baseball bats, rumours of a step ladder for one black belt grading). Multiple simultaneous aggressors was around green belt.

Knives were always given a big disclaimer though, and that was if they want your wallet, give it to them. In larger demonstrations they'd often arm a white belt with a marker pen, and tell them to try and stab the black belt, almost inevitably there'd be a lot of pen on the gi. The final unofficial advice was basically along the lines of "If they're trying to kill you, try to get stabbed somewhere that isn't fatal, and go for the groin/eyes".

None of that stops someone smacking you from behind of course, though some exercises had attacks from all angles (the imaginatively named "circle"), which helped you learn to be aware, but again, that's with the assumption you already know bad shit is happening.

Mog The Almighty wrote:... the first ever UFC competitions. There were almost no rules - so it basically was a street fight....

Just... no.

Man In Black wrote:

crash 669 wrote:

Mahoney wrote:I’d have thought the single biggest artificial rule that MMA imposes is the guarantee that the fight will be one on one. Which is what makes it sensible to go to ground.

100% just as in Tae Kwon Do you can do high kicks because no one's going to take you to ground, in MMA you can go to ground because no one's breaking a pool cue over your back or kicking you in the head at the same time.

I actually think wrestling or judo would be the two best to know in a 'pub brawl' type scenario.

Judo is a sport, not self defence, though it will help (especially at higher levels). Jiujitsu is where judo came from, and is a bit more focused on the self defence aspect. Originally designed for disarmed samurai, so very little kicking due to that being tricky on a battleground and not easy in armour anyway.