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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:35 pm 
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Blackrock Bullet wrote:
I don’t think this should have made court.

The initial prosecution statement I felt was weak, away from the moral indignation about a bunch of men behaving like lads, it was quite poor.


There has to be more to the prosecution you would think albeit the stories need more clarification.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:38 pm 
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Anyway, it's all academic.

There's no way a jury comprised of roughly half Protestants is going to send a couple of beefy proddy rugby players down. No chance.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:40 pm 
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BlackMac wrote:
Blackrock Bullet wrote:
I don’t think this should have made court.

The initial prosecution statement I felt was weak, away from the moral indignation about a bunch of men behaving like lads, it was quite poor.


I would say the opposite. Not a strong case, but there is rarely a "smoking gun" in these situations. The early disclosure and evidence of a victims distress are often enough to take to trial to test the credibility of both sides under cross examination. The content of the Whatsapp messages would also be seen as a good reflection of the defendants attitutde towards the incident. The fact that the players versions appear very much at odds is also very strange.

She appears ot have been very consistent in her version of events where they appear all over the shop. Never a good place to be.


What is inconsistent in their stories?

People are confusing Blaine McIlroy saying Olding wasn’t there when he went in and this other woman.

The thrusting proves nothing. It doesn’t mean penetration. It doesn’t even mean he wasn’t fingering/fisting her.

Her story is consistent if you think it’s credible to forget whole parts and to go against your own descriptions of your attitudes to others.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:42 pm 
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Blackrock Bullet wrote:
I don’t think this should have made court.

The initial prosecution statement I felt was weak, away from the moral indignation about a bunch of men behaving like lads, it was quite poor.

My understanding is that the defence were suprised it has gone to court.

That is not to say that the prosecution doesn't have some evidence that we do not yet know about as the PPS had to give the okay.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:43 pm 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
Flametop wrote:
I think this testimony is going to be the key one, I’m guessing in favour of the defendants.

http://www.thejournal.ie/jackson-olding ... 6-Feb2018/


I would say the exact opposite surely?

Jackson has denied riding her and the witness saw him.

They’re toast.

this bit? "When asked about the conversation she had with her friend that morning, the woman said her friend told her she had walked into a bedroom and saw people having sex."

The defence will be talking to the other women I assume and going into more details about what exactly she witnessed, and what that description of "people having sex" meant.

If you walked into a room and fleetingly saw three naked people engaged in oral sex, you could easily describe that scene as "people having sex" the next day when talking to your gal pal.

Then again, she might have already gone into further details and described full penetration and we just haven't got that in the reports.

I am loath to make full judgements on the scraps of information we get in the press.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:46 pm 
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JoeMangled wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
Flametop wrote:
I think this testimony is going to be the key one, I’m guessing in favour of the defendants.

http://www.thejournal.ie/jackson-olding ... 6-Feb2018/


I would say the exact opposite surely?

Jackson has denied riding her and the witness saw him.

They’re toast.

this bit? "When asked about the conversation she had with her friend that morning, the woman said her friend told her she had walked into a bedroom and saw people having sex."

The defence will be talking to the other women I assume and going into more details about what exactly she witnessed, and what that description of "people having sex" meant.

If you walked into a room and fleetingly saw three naked people engaged in oral sex, you could easily describe that scene as "people having sex" the next day when talking to your gal pal.

Then again, she might have already gone into further details and described full penetration and we just haven't got that in the reports.

I am loath to make full judgements on the scraps of information we get in the press.


Time will tell- but so far they’re allover the place. Although as BB says, Jackson may have been doing naked thrusting- pretending to penetrate a naked woman.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:53 pm 
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Blackrock Bullet wrote:
BlackMac wrote:
Blackrock Bullet wrote:
I don’t think this should have made court.

The initial prosecution statement I felt was weak, away from the moral indignation about a bunch of men behaving like lads, it was quite poor.


I would say the opposite. Not a strong case, but there is rarely a "smoking gun" in these situations. The early disclosure and evidence of a victims distress are often enough to take to trial to test the credibility of both sides under cross examination. The content of the Whatsapp messages would also be seen as a good reflection of the defendants attitutde towards the incident. The fact that the players versions appear very much at odds is also very strange.

She appears ot have been very consistent in her version of events where they appear all over the shop. Never a good place to be.


What is inconsistent in their stories?

People are confusing Blaine McIlroy saying Olding wasn’t there when he went in and this other woman.

The thrusting proves nothing. It doesn’t mean penetration. It doesn’t even mean he wasn’t fingering/fisting her.

Her story is consistent if you think it’s credible to forget whole parts and to go against your own descriptions of your attitudes to others.


The thrusting proves nothing...theres reasonable doubt and then there's raw idiocy.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:55 pm 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
JoeMangled wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
Flametop wrote:
I think this testimony is going to be the key one, I’m guessing in favour of the defendants.

http://www.thejournal.ie/jackson-olding ... 6-Feb2018/


I would say the exact opposite surely?

Jackson has denied riding her and the witness saw him.

They’re toast.

this bit? "When asked about the conversation she had with her friend that morning, the woman said her friend told her she had walked into a bedroom and saw people having sex."

The defence will be talking to the other women I assume and going into more details about what exactly she witnessed, and what that description of "people having sex" meant.

If you walked into a room and fleetingly saw three naked people engaged in oral sex, you could easily describe that scene as "people having sex" the next day when talking to your gal pal.

Then again, she might have already gone into further details and described full penetration and we just haven't got that in the reports.

I am loath to make full judgements on the scraps of information we get in the press.


Time will tell- but so far they’re allover the place. Although as BB says, Jackson may have been doing naked thrusting- pretending to penetrate a naked woman.


In her statement was she explicit when she said thrusting. I may be being silly here but he could have been thrusting his arm into her. I've seen nothing other than this apparent contradiction though. You would think (in this day and age) there is a definitive way to prove if he rid her or not. But the thing is that so far she has referred to her own recollection as hazy or incomplete on numerous occasions.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:57 pm 
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DiscoHips D'Arcy wrote:
In her statement was she explicit when she said thrusting. I may be being silly here but he could have been thrusting his arm into her. I've seen nothing other than this apparent contradiction though. You would think (in this day and age) there is a definitive way to prove if he rid her or not. But the thing is that so far she has referred to her own recollection as hazy or incomplete on numerous occasions.


Ah, okay. I am only seeing that now.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:15 pm 
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Quote:
Frank Greaney
‏Verified account @FrankGreaney
23m23 minutes ago

Witness tells Paddy Jackson's barrister she didn't see anyone's hands on the complainant's head. She said Stuart Olding's hands were on his own thighs and she saw Jackson's right hand on the woman's hip but didn't see where his left hand was.
1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
Frank Greaney
‏Verified account @FrankGreaney
23m23 minutes ago

She said she "100% saw sex from the movement". When asked if the woman looked frozen with fear, she said "no". Mr. Kelly finished his cross-examination by asking her if she saw any signs the woman wasn't consenting to what was going on and she again replied by saying "no"


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:15 pm 
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Teenage_hooker wrote:
Blackrock Bullet wrote:
BlackMac wrote:
Blackrock Bullet wrote:
I don’t think this should have made court.

The initial prosecution statement I felt was weak, away from the moral indignation about a bunch of men behaving like lads, it was quite poor.


I would say the opposite. Not a strong case, but there is rarely a "smoking gun" in these situations. The early disclosure and evidence of a victims distress are often enough to take to trial to test the credibility of both sides under cross examination. The content of the Whatsapp messages would also be seen as a good reflection of the defendants attitutde towards the incident. The fact that the players versions appear very much at odds is also very strange.

She appears ot have been very consistent in her version of events where they appear all over the shop. Never a good place to be.


What is inconsistent in their stories?

People are confusing Blaine McIlroy saying Olding wasn’t there when he went in and this other woman.

The thrusting proves nothing. It doesn’t mean penetration. It doesn’t even mean he wasn’t fingering/fisting her.

Her story is consistent if you think it’s credible to forget whole parts and to go against your own descriptions of your attitudes to others.


The thrusting proves nothing...theres reasonable doubt and then there's raw idiocy.

We know you've already decided they're guilty.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:19 pm 
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Teenage_hooker wrote:
Blackrock Bullet wrote:
BlackMac wrote:
Blackrock Bullet wrote:
I don’t think this should have made court.

The initial prosecution statement I felt was weak, away from the moral indignation about a bunch of men behaving like lads, it was quite poor.


I would say the opposite. Not a strong case, but there is rarely a "smoking gun" in these situations. The early disclosure and evidence of a victims distress are often enough to take to trial to test the credibility of both sides under cross examination. The content of the Whatsapp messages would also be seen as a good reflection of the defendants attitutde towards the incident. The fact that the players versions appear very much at odds is also very strange.

She appears ot have been very consistent in her version of events where they appear all over the shop. Never a good place to be.


What is inconsistent in their stories?

People are confusing Blaine McIlroy saying Olding wasn’t there when he went in and this other woman.

The thrusting proves nothing. It doesn’t mean penetration. It doesn’t even mean he wasn’t fingering/fisting her.

Her story is consistent if you think it’s credible to forget whole parts and to go against your own descriptions of your attitudes to others.


The thrusting proves nothing...theres reasonable doubt and then there's raw idiocy.


It doesn’t actually...but this woman is confident it was sex and wasn’t fisting so there we are.

What Jackson says is of interest here. We haven’t heard him on the stand.

I do have a theory as to why he would lie about the vaginal sex now. I don’t think it does her case much good.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:29 pm 
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I’m a bit surprised that the prosecution didn’t go with the too drunk to give proper consent case given the cctv that showed her stumbling and her hazy memory. Given how feisty she was in the witness box it’s hard to imagine that she would have been so frozen with fear at the time of the alleged rape. An awful lot of vagueness and inconsistencies in her story tbh.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:55 pm 
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All of he stories are over shop here.


What a steaming pile of dung. They all will need counciling after this


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:55 pm 
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earl the beaver wrote:
Blackrock Bullet wrote:
I don’t think this should have made court.

The initial prosecution statement I felt was weak, away from the moral indignation about a bunch of men behaving like lads, it was quite poor.

My understanding is that the defence were suprised it has gone to court.

That is not to say that the prosecution doesn't have some evidence that we do not yet know about as the PPS had to give the okay.


There are a lot of rumours flying around as to why it made it to court. It did seem odd that they dragged the guy in for perverting the course of justice - hardly seems fair that he’s up there alongside the far more serious allegations when he was essentially not involved. Makes you wonder about the prosecution approach from the outset. In terms of the allegations against the two lads it seems like there isn’t enough there for a conviction - so they’re almost certainly going to get off. Their lives will have been ruined regardless. Doesn’t seem right.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:56 pm 
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earl the beaver wrote:
Blackrock Bullet wrote:
I don’t think this should have made court.

The initial prosecution statement I felt was weak, away from the moral indignation about a bunch of men behaving like lads, it was quite poor.

My understanding is that the defence were suprised it has gone to court.

That is not to say that the prosecution doesn't have some evidence that we do not yet know about as the PPS had to give the okay.


It was always going to go to court once she started into the "going up against Ulster Rugby" angle. The Police and the PPS were always going to push it through.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:58 pm 
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JoeMangled wrote:
"When asked about the conversation she had with her friend that morning, the woman said her friend told her she had walked into a bedroom and saw people having sex."



I call bullshit! No young person today would walk in, see that and not film & tweet it to everyone in the world immediately. :thumbdown:


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:05 pm 
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Blackrock Bullet wrote:
Teenage_hooker wrote:
Blackrock Bullet wrote:
BlackMac wrote:
Blackrock Bullet wrote:
I don’t think this should have made court.

The initial prosecution statement I felt was weak, away from the moral indignation about a bunch of men behaving like lads, it was quite poor.


I would say the opposite. Not a strong case, but there is rarely a "smoking gun" in these situations. The early disclosure and evidence of a victims distress are often enough to take to trial to test the credibility of both sides under cross examination. The content of the Whatsapp messages would also be seen as a good reflection of the defendants attitutde towards the incident. The fact that the players versions appear very much at odds is also very strange.

She appears ot have been very consistent in her version of events where they appear all over the shop. Never a good place to be.


What is inconsistent in their stories?

People are confusing Blaine McIlroy saying Olding wasn’t there when he went in and this other woman.

The thrusting proves nothing. It doesn’t mean penetration. It doesn’t even mean he wasn’t fingering/fisting her.

Her story is consistent if you think it’s credible to forget whole parts and to go against your own descriptions of your attitudes to others.


The thrusting proves nothing...theres reasonable doubt and then there's raw idiocy.


It doesn’t actually...but this woman is confident it was sex and wasn’t fisting so there we are.

What Jackson says is of interest here. We haven’t heard him on the stand.

I do have a theory as to why he would lie about the vaginal sex now. I don’t think it does her case much good.


Theres more than one possible place he could have been thrusting at, and I don't think anyone is in a big rush to get into more detail about it.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:13 pm 
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Duff Paddy wrote:
Their lives will have been ruined regardless. Doesn’t seem right.

Ultimately if they're found guilty that doesn't matter as they're lives should be ruined by going to jail.

If acquitted/found not guilty it is incredibly unfair that these guys who have careers in the public eye will effectively have to give up on pursuing their career in Ireland and more than likely lose out on any chance of international rugby.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:56 pm 
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I just don’t buy the ‘Bill Clinton’ type defence that Jackson didnt ride her- and I don’t think fisting is really a one night stand type of thing. Would anybody be packing enough lube incase?!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:59 pm 
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earl the beaver wrote:
Duff Paddy wrote:
Their lives will have been ruined regardless. Doesn’t seem right.

Ultimately if they're found guilty that doesn't matter as they're lives should be ruined by going to jail.

If acquitted/found not guilty it is incredibly unfair that these guys who have careers in the public eye will effectively have to give up on pursuing their career in Ireland and more than likely lose out on any chance of international rugby.


And will they still be referred to as lads?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:06 pm 
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Regardless of whether they have committed a crime in a legal sense, it could be argued possibly with some success that they have brought ill repute on Irish Rugby.
They have certainly made some bad decisions at the very least.
While they are youngish and we all make mistakes, you have to own your mistakes and take the consequences.

Rugby is a game with honour and pride and is supposed to be played by gentlemen.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:41 pm 
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What is the angle for Jackson to deny he had sex if he did?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:44 pm 
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CM11 wrote:
What is the angle for Jackson to deny he had sex if he did?

None, I'd have thought, which is interesting in its own right.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:46 pm 
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camroc1 wrote:
CM11 wrote:
What is the angle for Jackson to deny he had sex if he did?

None, I'd have thought, which is interesting in its own right.


All very confusing.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:48 pm 
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currently looking pretty good for olding at the least. She admitted he said nothing but by a look she knew he was there to rape her. Said hands were on her head. Apparently not according to the witness. He had a second charge dropped before the trial started.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:52 pm 
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Great day for the defence, almost impossible to see a conviction after today’s evidence.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:59 pm 
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Conspicuous wrote:
Great day for the defence, almost impossible to see a conviction after today’s evidence.

The defence barristers have tic-tac-toed admirably, but the prosecution get to re-examine tomorrow.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:59 pm 
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DiscoHips D'Arcy wrote:
Blackrock Bullet wrote:
I don’t think this should have made court.

The initial prosecution statement I felt was weak, away from the moral indignation about a bunch of men behaving like lads, it was quite poor.


There has to be more to the prosecution you would think albeit the stories need more clarification.

People thought there must have been a good reason ched Evans was prosecuted. There clearly wasn't and he was still found guilty. The big difference here is this woman says she was raped


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:03 pm 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
I just don’t buy the ‘Bill Clinton’ type defence that Jackson didnt ride her- and I don’t think fisting is really a one night stand type of thing. Would anybody be packing enough lube incase?!

Unless he stuck his cock in her without a condom and is trying to cover for that.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:04 pm 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
I just don’t buy the ‘Bill Clinton’ type defence that Jackson didnt ride her- and I don’t think fisting is really a one night stand type of thing. Would anybody be packing enough lube incase?!

What you do if you are a sportsman who pulls a lot of girls when out with his mates could well be quite different from most


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:08 pm 
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paddyor wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
I just don’t buy the ‘Bill Clinton’ type defence that Jackson didnt ride her- and I don’t think fisting is really a one night stand type of thing. Would anybody be packing enough lube incase?!

Unless he stuck his cock in her without a condom and is trying to cover for that.


Why though? Not a crime to do that consensualy.

The only reasons to lie about it that I can think of doesn't stack up well for any of them.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:09 pm 
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The two lads should just come out as gay lovers, case closed.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:12 pm 
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YOYO wrote:
The two lads should just come out as gay lovers, case closed.


If they go to prison that may well happen.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:20 pm 
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Anonymous. wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
I just don’t buy the ‘Bill Clinton’ type defence that Jackson didnt ride her- and I don’t think fisting is really a one night stand type of thing. Would anybody be packing enough lube incase?!

What you do if you are a sportsman who pulls a lot of girls when out with his mates could well be quite different from most


Fists are for fighting, not making love.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:21 pm 
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fatcat wrote:
YOYO wrote:
The two lads should just come out as gay lovers, case closed.


If they go to prison that may well happen.

They will be shared around


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:31 pm 
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CM11 wrote:
paddyor wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
I just don’t buy the ‘Bill Clinton’ type defence that Jackson didnt ride her- and I don’t think fisting is really a one night stand type of thing. Would anybody be packing enough lube incase?!

Unless he stuck his cock in her without a condom and is trying to cover for that.


Why though? Not a crime to do that consensualy.

The only reasons to lie about it that I can think of doesn't stack up well for any of them.

Well it could potentially be if she thought he had one on and he didn't. It's never been tried in court in the UK though I don't believe, but it can be considered a violation of conditional consent, certainly I personally would even if it isn't in the law.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:37 pm 
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Mick Mannock wrote:
fatcat wrote:
YOYO wrote:
The two lads should just come out as gay lovers, case closed.


If they go to prison that may well happen.

They will be shared around


That’s where their rucking skills will come in handy.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:37 pm 
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CM11 wrote:
paddyor wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
I just don’t buy the ‘Bill Clinton’ type defence that Jackson didnt ride her- and I don’t think fisting is really a one night stand type of thing. Would anybody be packing enough lube incase?!

Unless he stuck his cock in her without a condom and is trying to cover for that.


Why though? Not a crime to do that consensualy.

The only reasons to lie about it that I can think of doesn't stack up well for any of them.

Going to the "trouble" of putting on a condom seems less rapey than just wanging it out and stick it in.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:44 pm 
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paddyor wrote:
CM11 wrote:
paddyor wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
I just don’t buy the ‘Bill Clinton’ type defence that Jackson didnt ride her- and I don’t think fisting is really a one night stand type of thing. Would anybody be packing enough lube incase?!

Unless he stuck his cock in her without a condom and is trying to cover for that.


Why though? Not a crime to do that consensualy.

The only reasons to lie about it that I can think of doesn't stack up well for any of them.

Going to the "trouble" of putting on a condom seems less rapey than just wanging it out and stick it in.


One of the key parts of the story from the men is that they didn't have sex because they couldn't find a condom. IIRC.


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