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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:19 am 
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http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/ar ... d=11992204

Quote:
"Guys have to get those decisions right," said Gatland. "It looked like a try to me and everyone else I have spoken to has said it looked like a clear try. It was such a big decision in the game. You fly a guy over from New Zealand and he has one big call to make. I think he has made a terrible mistake. You could see on the replay that Anscombe got there first. He put his hand on the ball and grounded it. I just struggled with the wording (heard on the Ref Link). He said England got there first and there was no downward pressure from Wales. Gareth got there first (ahead of Anthony Watson)."


No try BTW, Anscombr got first contact but he bounced it, knock on ingoal back to the penalty, correct decision.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:27 am 
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Promoted to 14th


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:39 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:41 am 
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blackblackblack wrote:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11992204

Quote:
"Guys have to get those decisions right," said Gatland. "It looked like a try to me and everyone else I have spoken to has said it looked like a clear try. It was such a big decision in the game. You fly a guy over from New Zealand and he has one big call to make. I think he has made a terrible mistake. You could see on the replay that Anscombe got there first. He put his hand on the ball and grounded it. I just struggled with the wording (heard on the Ref Link). He said England got there first and there was no downward pressure from Wales. Gareth got there first (ahead of Anthony Watson)."


No try BTW, Anscombr got first contact but he bounced it, knock on ingoal back to the penalty, correct decision.

Nah, it was a try.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:42 am 
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"He bounced it".

Which law says this?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:44 am 
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What's the Mike Brown incident he felt should have been a yellow?


How will he react if someone decided to cite their #4 for launching into the head of an England player just before the all-in-for-nothing scuffle?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:52 am 
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Nieghorn wrote:
What's the Mike Brown incident he felt should have been a yellow?


How will he react if someone decided to cite their #4 for launching into the head of an England player just before the all-in-for-nothing scuffle?


Right at the end, we had broken into the midfield at about the England 22, and before we could take advantage of a splintered defence, Brown lent over the ruck and deliberately slapped the ball out of the scrummies hand. I too thought that it looked like a yellow given where it was on the field and the conditions under which it was given.

Anscombe subsequently converted the penalty.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:58 am 
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Thai guy wrote:
"He bounced it".

Which law says this?

Who is citing laws, I'm saying I thought he bounced it, knocked it forward rather than grounding it.

Great post Kieth.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:14 am 
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blackblackblack wrote:
Thai guy wrote:
"He bounced it".

Which law says this?

Who is citing laws, I'm saying I thought he bounced it, knocked it forward rather than grounding it.

Great post Kieth.


Watch that clip in your linked article, at the 25sec mark... you can 'rock' the footage backwards and forwards at the contact point. It's f**king hard to say conclusively that Anscombe grounded the ball as we probably identify the action.

The footage is limited though, slightly grainy and from the side only. He seems to have fingertips touching the ball when it hits the deck although that is not clear... he could also easily have knocked the ball away from his fingertips. In fact, the more I watch the action, the more I think that is what has happened.

SO after much careful deliberation, I agree.

Keith made a good post.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:18 am 
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I thought it was a try.

You win some you lose some though. Maybe that was karma for the third Lions test.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:24 am 
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Same thing happened for Ben Smith's try, right under the posts IIRC. Adjudged to have not grounded the ball.

Isn't downward pressure stated in the laws as not required in scoring? Therefore technically, if the ball has contact with the ground and is touched , it should be a try.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:32 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
blackblackblack wrote:
Thai guy wrote:
"He bounced it".

Which law says this?

Who is citing laws, I'm saying I thought he bounced it, knocked it forward rather than grounding it.

Great post Kieth.


Watch that clip in your linked article, at the 25sec mark... you can 'rock' the footage backwards and forwards at the contact point. It's f**king hard to say conclusively that Anscombe grounded the ball as we probably identify the action.

The footage is limited though, slightly grainy and from the side only. He seems to have fingertips touching the ball when it hits the deck although that is not clear... he could also easily have knocked the ball away from his fingertips. In fact, the more I watch the action, the more I think that is what has happened.

SO after much careful deliberation, I agree.

Keith made a good post.

Yes, yes he did. Now it simply remains ro identify which one it was.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:34 am 
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Ahhh crap, Chris Rattue agrees with me, now I feel dirty.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/ar ... d=11992288


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:36 am 
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I thought it was a try - switched the game on at halftime and the first thing I saw was a replay of the incident but due to my subscription service there was no commentary when I saw the referee signal no try assumed that there must have been something preceding the grounding that ruled it out. That said these things balance out over time and Gatland got more than his fair share of luck during the Lions series.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:38 am 
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blackblackblack wrote:
Ahhh crap, Chris Rattue agrees with me, now I feel dirty.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/ar ... d=11992288


Shit, must have been a try then.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:41 am 
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JB1981 wrote:
I thought it was a try.

You win some you lose some though. Maybe that was karma for the third Lions test.


I'm still looking for an even up of karma for the second test where the Lions guy umped in the air to catch a bad pass just as he was being tackled. Cost us the game (last action penalty)


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:42 am 
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SilverGrin wrote:
Same thing happened for Ben Smith's try, right under the posts IIRC. Adjudged to have not grounded the ball.

Isn't downward pressure stated in the laws as not required in scoring? Therefore technically, if the ball has contact with the ground and is touched , it should be a try.


Only when the player is holding the ball otherwise he/she must press down on it, although there is nothing about how much pressure needs to be applied

Law 21 (2018)
Quote:
The ball can be grounded in in-goal:

By holding it and touching the ground with it; or

By pressing down on it with a hand or hands, arm or arms, or the front of the player’s body from waist to neck.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:02 am 
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Enzedder wrote:
JB1981 wrote:
I thought it was a try.

You win some you lose some though. Maybe that was karma for the third Lions test.


I'm still looking for an even up of karma for the second test where the Lions guy umped in the air to catch a bad pass just as he was being tackled. Cost us the game (last action penalty)

In the words of Mainland Cheese, good things take time.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:11 am 
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P.S. Nailed on try:

Spoiler: show
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:15 am 
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Show us the 25fps for the 2s prior to that and I'll maybe accept that it was. In the vision in the Herald piece it looks like a knock on to me prior to his grounding.

Is that still taken from front on vision or is it a photographers image.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:20 am 
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SilverGrin wrote:
Same thing happened for Ben Smith's try, right under the posts IIRC. Adjudged to have not grounded the ball.

Isn't downward pressure stated in the laws as not required in scoring? Therefore technically, if the ball has contact with the ground and is touched , it should be a try.


It's not stated, but logically you can't press down without it.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:35 am 
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blackblackblack wrote:
Thai guy wrote:
"He bounced it".

Which law says this?

Who is citing laws, I'm saying I thought he bounced it, knocked it forward rather than grounding it.

Great post Kieth.
Weird you'd use 'bounced it' in an argument when the official language is 'downward pressure', and now apparently 'control'.

Given WR change their minds without telling anyone I thought you might have the inside running on 'bounced it' being a new directive.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:13 am 
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Thai guy wrote:
blackblackblack wrote:
Thai guy wrote:
"He bounced it".

Which law says this?

Who is citing laws, I'm saying I thought he bounced it, knocked it forward rather than grounding it.

Great post Kieth.
Weird you'd use 'bounced it' in an argument when the official language is 'downward pressure', and now apparently 'control'.

Given WR change their minds without telling anyone I thought you might have the inside running on 'bounced it' being a new directive.

Isn't saying someone "bounced it" the same as saying you didn't think they had downward pressure or control? It seems a pretty good description and certainly one that has been used in looking at a lot of similar groundings.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:15 am 
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Jeff the Bear wrote:
P.S. Nailed on try:

Spoiler: show
Image

Yes. I can't see how those fingers can be there without pressing down.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:18 am 
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Try all day long. Robbed.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:34 am 
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JB1981 wrote:
Thai guy wrote:
blackblackblack wrote:
Thai guy wrote:
"He bounced it".

Which law says this?

Who is citing laws, I'm saying I thought he bounced it, knocked it forward rather than grounding it.

Great post Kieth.
Weird you'd use 'bounced it' in an argument when the official language is 'downward pressure', and now apparently 'control'.

Given WR change their minds without telling anyone I thought you might have the inside running on 'bounced it' being a new directive.

Isn't saying someone "bounced it" the same as saying you didn't think they had downward pressure or control? It seems a pretty good description and certainly one that has been used in looking at a lot of similar groundings.
The ball's always going to bounce when there is legitimate downward pressure on the ball in contact with the ground. To say "he bounced it" doesn't mean a try wasn't scored. I reckon 'bounced it' according to BBB means there was air between the ball and the ground at the time of the touch when clearly there wasn't in this case.

Anyway, justice for Dai. BBB should lock his own thread in shame.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:42 am 
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Give Wales the try, and the conversion as an apology.

England win 12-10, everyones happy.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:21 am 
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That's a try.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:33 am 
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Of course it's a try

I was "surprised" by how quick the bootlicker took on his video review of the incident


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:20 am 
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Looks like it ought to have been a try - but damn those are some salty tears from Gatland. After his gloating after last week's game, I can't say I'm not quietly loving this reaction now


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:28 am 
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dargotronV.1 wrote:
but damn those are some salty tears from Gatland. After his gloating after last week's game


Far be it for me to encourage a gloat of any sort...

but there were a few posters in here last week who seemed to be doing something of that nature.



:nod:


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:30 am 
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I don't think anyone other than the tmo would argue that it's not a try. Difficult to see otherwise.

However, in 99.324% of cases like this, the ref would ask for a review of whether the Welsh players were offside from the kick before asking the tmo to consider the grounding.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:34 am 
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message #2527204 wrote:
I don't think anyone other than the tmo would argue that it's not a try. Difficult to see otherwise.

However, in 99.324% of cases like this, the ref would ask for a review of whether the Welsh players were offside from the kick before asking the tmo to consider the grounding.


They weren't offside.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:34 am 
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Jeff the Bear wrote:
P.S. Nailed on try:

Spoiler: show
Image


Yes it was


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:38 am 
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Raggs wrote:
message #2527204 wrote:
I don't think anyone other than the tmo would argue that it's not a try. Difficult to see otherwise.

However, in 99.324% of cases like this, the ref would ask for a review of whether the Welsh players were offside from the kick before asking the tmo to consider the grounding.


They weren't offside.

I'll take your word for it so don't really care. The point being, it should have been reviewed. It's always reviewed.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:39 am 
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So add 7 pts but take away 3 for the pen

Still a MORAL victory with added asterisk


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:45 am 
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Must be galling to think that you had the ref on-side only to fall foul of the tmo. But it wouldn't have been enough anyway even if the touchdown was wrongly awarded despite offside. :)


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:52 am 
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Whether it was a try is irrelevant (I think it was). It's the public doubting of officials that's wrong. Unless we want Wendyball behaviour it need cracking down on.

Gatlands wrong.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:04 am 
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bimboman wrote:
Whether it was a try is irrelevant (I think it was). It's the public doubting of officials that's wrong. Unless we want Wendyball behaviour it need cracking down on.

Gatlands wrong.


That's true. But there again, public doubting of anyone and everyone if now out there inthe world of openness.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:09 am 
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bimboman wrote:
Whether it was a try is irrelevant (I think it was). It's the public doubting of officials that's wrong. Unless we want Wendyball behaviour it need cracking down on.

Gatlands wrong.


It wasn't a try because the tmo said it wasn't and England won 12-6

I think Gatland is entitled to say he thought it was a try, and it's a fair point to want to know how the tmo came to his decision.

Given what the TMO was asked to review, I'd find it difficult to say he got the decision right. Eddie Jones said much the same thing in his interview.


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