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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:51 am 
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bessantj wrote:
True Blue wrote:
DS:9 has some of the best ever trek episodes. In the Pale Moonlight and The Visitor. That was trek.

Duet was great.

'Duet' is a great example of basically two actors in a room with high quality dialogue and terrific direction. Shows how sci-fi can be really riveting without space battles and a shit ton of CGI.

'Tacking Into the Wind' is yet another classic, although a bit more "conventional" sci-fi.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:01 am 
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Saint wrote:
Of course {and I'm a big DS9 fan), the reality is it was following in the footsteps of Babylon 5, both in format and themes


Didn't DS9 start a year before Babylon 5? Or do you mean later DS9 seasons? Babylon 5 was great though.

tabascoboy wrote:
bessantj wrote:
True Blue wrote:
DS:9 has some of the best ever trek episodes. In the Pale Moonlight and The Visitor. That was trek.

Duet was great.

'Duet' is a great example of basically two actors in a room with high quality dialogue and terrific direction. Shows how sci-fi can be really riveting without space battles and a shit ton of CGI.

'Tacking Into the Wind' is yet another classic, although a bit more "conventional" sci-fi.


Great example of a good way to do a 'bottle show'


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:11 am 
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bessantj wrote:
Saint wrote:
Of course {and I'm a big DS9 fan), the reality is it was following in the footsteps of Babylon 5, both in format and themes
Didn't DS9 start a year before Babylon 5? Or do you mean later DS9 seasons? Babylon 5 was great though.




Allegedly, JMS gave Paramount his series bible for B5 when he pitched the show to them, but it was rejected as they considered him an unknown quantity. Then, Paramount decided to greenlight Deep Space Nine....


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:16 am 
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tabascoboy wrote:
bessantj wrote:
Saint wrote:
Of course {and I'm a big DS9 fan), the reality is it was following in the footsteps of Babylon 5, both in format and themes
Didn't DS9 start a year before Babylon 5? Or do you mean later DS9 seasons? Babylon 5 was great though.

Allegedly, JMS gave Paramount his series bible for B5 when he pitched the show to them, but it was rejected as they considered him an unknown quantity. Then, Paramount decided to greenlight Deep Space Nine....

I did not know that, but if you're going to rip off something you may as well rip off something as good as Babylon 5. In fact Babylon 5 was so good I'd describe it as 'very good'.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:59 am 
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bessantj wrote:
tabascoboy wrote:
bessantj wrote:
Saint wrote:
Of course {and I'm a big DS9 fan), the reality is it was following in the footsteps of Babylon 5, both in format and themes
Didn't DS9 start a year before Babylon 5? Or do you mean later DS9 seasons? Babylon 5 was great though.

Allegedly, JMS gave Paramount his series bible for B5 when he pitched the show to them, but it was rejected as they considered him an unknown quantity. Then, Paramount decided to greenlight Deep Space Nine....

I did not know that, but if you're going to rip off something you may as well rip off something as good as Babylon 5. In fact Babylon 5 was so good I'd describe it as 'very good'.


What is known for sure:

JMS had a full script for the pilot and the complete Bible for the B5 story which he pitched to Paramount.

Paramount sat on it for 9 months before ultimately rejecting it

Paramount then greenlit DS9, but not before insisting that the producers relocate the setting from predominantly Bajor to predominantly the space station

Even then, DS9 didn't really get into story arc territory until they realised just how much that was driving everything inside B5.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:28 am 
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Hair rule

Riker has no beard - generally cack
Sisko has hair and no beard - generally cack
Janeway has long hair - generally cack

It doesn't apply to Enterprise as that was just generally a bit meh. Until the Xindi arc

So all of them started fairly slowly. Discovery did the same, but I think picked up a bit quicker than the rest. And since they're insisting on it being the prime timeline, I'm quite enjoying the fact that you know its going to have to end really badly given we've never heard of the psychedelia drive before


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:48 am 
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bessantj wrote:
I did not know that, but if you're going to rip off something you may as well rip off something as good as Babylon 5. In fact Babylon 5 was so good I'd describe it as 'very good'.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:22 pm 
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True Blue wrote:
Garak was great. His tit/tat with Odo was good to watch also.

Surprised to see both actors are now well into their 70s.


In one of those strange coincidences, just seen on IMDB that it's his birthday today. He was the killer in Dirty Harry and the father in Hellraiser.

So happy birthday to him.

Spoiler: show
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:30 pm 
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Jeff the Bear wrote:
message #2527204 wrote:
bessantj wrote:
message #2527204 wrote:
The sci fi is a lot lacking. It's a bit too soap-in-space.
More deep space nine than voyager. and who managed to watch DS9?


As it's often considered the best trek series lots of people seem to have watched it (though these people are of course wrong everyone knows the best series is the Animated Series).

I finished watching Discovery last night, it was a really up and down season quality wise. Interested to see a second season though.


It was soap with pointy ears. Very little sci fi. people like soap drama. I'm not knocking it if that's your thing - millions watch Corry apparently.


I'm wondering how DS9 is more saopy than any of the other 'modern' Trek series? In fact DS9 is deemed to be the best (by those that believe that) because it was a darker, harder take on the Trek universe. It wasn't all sweetness and light. It was the first (and until Discovery, only) Trek series to attempt to deal in the 'grey' areas of life.




I wouldn't say that. TNG often did as well. It also had it's dark moments, like when Pickard is tortured (based off real victims wasn't it). But TNG wasn't a light show, it was the Trek show that spanned the widest spectrum of tones.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:50 pm 
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Jeff the Bear wrote:
message #2527204 wrote:
bessantj wrote:
message #2527204 wrote:
The sci fi is a lot lacking. It's a bit too soap-in-space.
More deep space nine than voyager. and who managed to watch DS9?


As it's often considered the best trek series lots of people seem to have watched it (though these people are of course wrong everyone knows the best series is the Animated Series).

I finished watching Discovery last night, it was a really up and down season quality wise. Interested to see a second season though.


It was soap with pointy ears. Very little sci fi. people like soap drama. I'm not knocking it if that's your thing - millions watch Corry apparently.


I'm wondering how DS9 is more saopy than any of the other 'modern' Trek series? In fact DS9 is deemed to be the best (by those that believe that) because it was a darker, harder take on the Trek universe. It wasn't all sweetness and light. It was the first (and until Discovery, only) Trek series to attempt to deal in the 'grey' areas of life.

The only "soapy" bits were really the monumentally tedious O' Brien family scenes, my heart sank whenever it was clear this was a storyline ( such as when they wrote Nana Visitor's real life pregnancy into the show ).

Wasn't that keen on the inter character romances but all in all the show kept a fairly dark tone with moral shades of grey becoming more and more important as the main (later) arc progressed. 'In the Pale Moonlight' is fantastic and as good as any non genre TV drama.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:14 pm 
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eldanielfire wrote:
Jeff the Bear wrote:
message #2527204 wrote:
bessantj wrote:
message #2527204 wrote:
The sci fi is a lot lacking. It's a bit too soap-in-space.
More deep space nine than voyager. and who managed to watch DS9?


As it's often considered the best trek series lots of people seem to have watched it (though these people are of course wrong everyone knows the best series is the Animated Series).

I finished watching Discovery last night, it was a really up and down season quality wise. Interested to see a second season though.


It was soap with pointy ears. Very little sci fi. people like soap drama. I'm not knocking it if that's your thing - millions watch Corry apparently.


I'm wondering how DS9 is more saopy than any of the other 'modern' Trek series? In fact DS9 is deemed to be the best (by those that believe that) because it was a darker, harder take on the Trek universe. It wasn't all sweetness and light. It was the first (and until Discovery, only) Trek series to attempt to deal in the 'grey' areas of life.




I wouldn't say that. TNG often did as well. It also had it's dark moments, like when Pickard is tortured (based off real victims wasn't it). But TNG wasn't a light show, it was the Trek show that spanned the widest spectrum of tones.



The biggest problem with TNG was the end of episode reset, but that was common to most TV of that era.

Aliens take over Starfleet HQ and are only stopped at the last second? Never heard of again.
Riker involved in hiding evidence of secret weapons development? Shake of the hand at the end and it's forgotten

etc etc

They did make a start on developing the politics of the Klingon Empire, which DS9 really ran with, but other than that, nothing


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:01 pm 
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crash 669 wrote:
True Blue wrote:
Garak was great. His tit/tat with Odo was good to watch also.

Surprised to see both actors are now well into their 70s.


In one of those strange coincidences, just seen on IMDB that it's his birthday today. He was the killer in Dirty Harry and the father in Hellraiser.

So happy birthday to him.

Spoiler: show
Image


And Odo was the original Father Mulcahy from MASH (the film). It's interesting to hear him with a really soft voice in that and I assumed 'Odo' was a complete put-on, but saw him in an Enterprise ep and his voice was kinda gruff in that too.

Image


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:07 pm 
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Now that is some top trivia Nieg! Strong work.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:10 pm 
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Saint wrote:

The biggest problem with TNG was the end of episode reset, but that was common to most TV of that era.

Aliens take over Starfleet HQ and are only stopped at the last second? Never heard of again.
Riker involved in hiding evidence of secret weapons development? Shake of the hand at the end and it's forgotten

etc etc

They did make a start on developing the politics of the Klingon Empire, which DS9 really ran with, but other than that, nothing


I don't see that as a problem. It gets tired some when there are so many forced season-long plot arcs, it's usually quickly resolved pointless cliffhangers and melodrama rather then significant story progression. There are great examples e.g. Game of Thrones or there are silly or poor examples like many of Doctor Who's. It's not as if TNG didn't have continunity, character evolution or move on. After all a main character died, the Borg was the build-up of several "hints" over 3 seasons before their eventual epic clash in Federation space and there were many after effects. What stand-alone stories TNG style is some epic exploration of particular ideas that don't have to be forced into a arc which they may or may not fit into.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:17 pm 
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eldanielfire wrote:
Saint wrote:

The biggest problem with TNG was the end of episode reset, but that was common to most TV of that era.

Aliens take over Starfleet HQ and are only stopped at the last second? Never heard of again.
Riker involved in hiding evidence of secret weapons development? Shake of the hand at the end and it's forgotten

etc etc

They did make a start on developing the politics of the Klingon Empire, which DS9 really ran with, but other than that, nothing


I don't see that as a problem. It gets tired some when there are so many forced season-long plot arcs, it's usually quickly resolved pointless cliffhangers and melodrama rather then significant story progression. There are great examples e.g. Game of Thrones or there are silly or poor examples like many of Doctor Who's. It's not as if TNG didn't have continunity, character evolution or move on. After all a main character died, the Borg was the build-up of several "hints" over 3 seasons before their eventual epic clash in Federation space and there were many after effects. What stand-alone stories TNG style is some epic exploration of particular ideas that don't have to be forced into a arc which they may or may not fit into.


I agree that some standalone can be a good thing - but things like RIker being directly involved in a cover-up regarding illegal arms development probably ought to have had some career ending reprecussions.

And the episdoe where aliends actually did almost completely take over Starfleet was supposed to have had a follow up - that never materialised. either. And, to be honest, you don;t hear anything about the impact of Locutis on Picard except when the Borg are around, and he recovered from his torture at the hands of the Cardassians remarkably quickly as well.

These are just some of the most obvious examples, but like I said TNG was not alone at during this period of TV. It;s just that if/when you re-watch a whole season today, it;s a bot jarring to finish one episode and find out the following week that Bobby's just come back to life in the shower


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:19 pm 
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Nieghorn wrote:
crash 669 wrote:
True Blue wrote:
Garak was great. His tit/tat with Odo was good to watch also.

Surprised to see both actors are now well into their 70s.


In one of those strange coincidences, just seen on IMDB that it's his birthday today. He was the killer in Dirty Harry and the father in Hellraiser.

So happy birthday to him.

Spoiler: show
Image


And Odo was the original Father Mulcahy from MASH (the film). It's interesting to hear him with a really soft voice in that and I assumed 'Odo' was a complete put-on, but saw him in an Enterprise ep and his voice was kinda gruff in that too.

Image


Was also in the Warehouse with the same voice. Sounds like he had an episode of extreme smoking


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:22 pm 
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I got annoyed by the Tarens being completely unable to find Michael as she wandered around their ship.

Earlier that day...

Emperor: "Computer! Give me a full schematic of the enemy ship!"
Computer: (1/2 sec later) "Here you go Emperor"

Emperor: (as a laser beam is heading at her head) "Computer! Emergency transportation!"
Computer: (1/64 sec later) "Done"

Emperor: "Michael is hiding in the ship. Captain, take your guards and find her"

WTF??? :?



And on that point on Sci-Fi in general....why does every show have a huge craft that is protected by a force field that everyone on the rebel side knows can be disabled by a single person sneaking in, but

1) no-one on board the enemy ship seems to know about these controls
2) the controls for this function are found in a open, deserted corridor in an unlocked panel
3) there is no-one protecting said unlocked panel, even in the height of battle when the enemy is clearly desperately trying to bring down that shield to take out the ship???

Grrrrrr..... :x


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:34 pm 
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Saint wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
Saint wrote:

The biggest problem with TNG was the end of episode reset, but that was common to most TV of that era.

Aliens take over Starfleet HQ and are only stopped at the last second? Never heard of again.
Riker involved in hiding evidence of secret weapons development? Shake of the hand at the end and it's forgotten

etc etc

They did make a start on developing the politics of the Klingon Empire, which DS9 really ran with, but other than that, nothing


I don't see that as a problem. It gets tired some when there are so many forced season-long plot arcs, it's usually quickly resolved pointless cliffhangers and melodrama rather then significant story progression. There are great examples e.g. Game of Thrones or there are silly or poor examples like many of Doctor Who's. It's not as if TNG didn't have continunity, character evolution or move on. After all a main character died, the Borg was the build-up of several "hints" over 3 seasons before their eventual epic clash in Federation space and there were many after effects. What stand-alone stories TNG style is some epic exploration of particular ideas that don't have to be forced into a arc which they may or may not fit into.


I agree that some standalone can be a good thing - but things like RIker being directly involved in a cover-up regarding illegal arms development probably ought to have had some career ending reprecussions.


And the main character of STDs actions and behaviours? Stand alone doesn't produce more inconsistencies then season long arcs if the writers want a character there. Often season long arcs/ongoing stories get serious events unrealistically covered up as well. Look at something like 24 ad claim season long arcs don't have characters unrealistically getting away with things.

Quote:

And the episdoe where aliends actually did almost completely take over Starfleet was supposed to have had a follow up - that never materialised. either. And, to be honest, you don;t hear anything about the impact of Locutis on Picard except when the Borg are around, and he recovered from his torture at the hands of the Cardassians remarkably quickly as well.

These are just some of the most obvious examples, but like I said TNG was not alone at during this period of TV. It;s just that if/when you re-watch a whole season today, it;s a bot jarring to finish one episode and find out the following week that Bobby's just come back to life in the shower



But none of these are due to the individual episode format. In season long arcs it's amazing just how resourceful central character get. Or that epic cliffhanger is gone, resolved and forgotten rather quickly. I don't find it as jarring in the single episode format simply because I always assume plenty of time could have passed between episodes anyway.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:55 pm 
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eldanielfire wrote:
Saint wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
Saint wrote:

The biggest problem with TNG was the end of episode reset, but that was common to most TV of that era.

Aliens take over Starfleet HQ and are only stopped at the last second? Never heard of again.
Riker involved in hiding evidence of secret weapons development? Shake of the hand at the end and it's forgotten

etc etc

They did make a start on developing the politics of the Klingon Empire, which DS9 really ran with, but other than that, nothing


I don't see that as a problem. It gets tired some when there are so many forced season-long plot arcs, it's usually quickly resolved pointless cliffhangers and melodrama rather then significant story progression. There are great examples e.g. Game of Thrones or there are silly or poor examples like many of Doctor Who's. It's not as if TNG didn't have continunity, character evolution or move on. After all a main character died, the Borg was the build-up of several "hints" over 3 seasons before their eventual epic clash in Federation space and there were many after effects. What stand-alone stories TNG style is some epic exploration of particular ideas that don't have to be forced into a arc which they may or may not fit into.


I agree that some standalone can be a good thing - but things like RIker being directly involved in a cover-up regarding illegal arms development probably ought to have had some career ending reprecussions.


And the main character of STDs actions and behaviours? Stand alone doesn't produce more inconsistencies then season long arcs if the writers want a character there. Often season long arcs/ongoing stories get serious events unrealistically covered up as well. Look at something like 24 ad claim season long arcs don't have characters unrealistically getting away with things.

Quote:

And the episdoe where aliends actually did almost completely take over Starfleet was supposed to have had a follow up - that never materialised. either. And, to be honest, you don;t hear anything about the impact of Locutis on Picard except when the Borg are around, and he recovered from his torture at the hands of the Cardassians remarkably quickly as well.

These are just some of the most obvious examples, but like I said TNG was not alone at during this period of TV. It;s just that if/when you re-watch a whole season today, it;s a bot jarring to finish one episode and find out the following week that Bobby's just come back to life in the shower



But none of these are due to the individual episode format. In season long arcs it's amazing just how resourceful central character get. Or that epic cliffhanger is gone, resolved and forgotten rather quickly. I don't find it as jarring in the single episode format simply because I always assume plenty of time could have passed between episodes anyway.


I agree that overlong story arcs can have some dumb things going on as well - which is often down to the writer starting his overlong story arc without having a clear idea of where they're going (same is true of the old fashioned cliffhanger, where one writer had the responsibility of getting them to the cliff - cue music - and writer 2 comes alon and has to pick up the pieces). the trouble with TNG though is that they were often trying to go for some of the longer term effects, but unless is it was specifically going to form part of something you ended up with a great piece of episodic drama that genuinely just reset.

That was the TNG formula, and for some episodes it's perfectly fine. But when they make major changes to a character, or his history, or the organisation, or whatever during an episode, and then it's all forgotten, it jars a bit.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:50 pm 
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I don't know what 'quality control' was like on those shows - how strict the show-runner was, if they had one - but that's a risk with long-running shows that have open script policies and a whole bunch of different writers.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:54 pm 
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Saint wrote:

I agree that overlong story arcs can have some dumb things going on as well - which is often down to the writer starting his overlong story arc without having a clear idea of where they're going (same is true of the old fashioned cliffhanger, where one writer had the responsibility of getting them to the cliff - cue music - and writer 2 comes alon and has to pick up the pieces). the trouble with TNG though is that they were often trying to go for some of the longer term effects, but unless is it was specifically going to form part of something you ended up with a great piece of episodic drama that genuinely just reset.

That was the TNG formula, and for some episodes it's perfectly fine. But when they make major changes to a character, or his history, or the organisation, or whatever during an episode, and then it's all forgotten, it jars a bit.


And thta's my point. It's an issue with the show runner or writers, not the format.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:10 pm 
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Sandstorm wrote:
I got annoyed by the Tarens being completely unable to find Michael as she wandered around their ship.

Earlier that day...

Emperor: "Computer! Give me a full schematic of the enemy ship!"
Computer: (1/2 sec later) "Here you go Emperor"

Emperor: (as a laser beam is heading at her head) "Computer! Emergency transportation!"
Computer: (1/64 sec later) "Done"

Emperor: "Michael is hiding in the ship. Captain, take your guards and find her"

WTF??? :?



And on that point on Sci-Fi in general....why does every show have a huge craft that is protected by a force field that everyone on the rebel side knows can be disabled by a single person sneaking in, but

1) no-one on board the enemy ship seems to know about these controls
2) the controls for this function are found in a open, deserted corridor in an unlocked panel
3) there is no-one protecting said unlocked panel, even in the height of battle when the enemy is clearly desperately trying to bring down that shield to take out the ship???

Grrrrrr..... :x

Image


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:07 pm 
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I enjoyed the first season but the mirror universe stuff was pretty silly and pointless. The season was supposed to be about war with the Klingons but we barely saw any of it. Nothing particularly sticks out. Even the finale hardly showed them.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:32 pm 
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Re TNG and the "end of episode reset", late in the show's run there's a two-parter where Picard went off on his archaeology hobby, and for awhile the crew of the Enterprise believe he is dead. Riker goes after him and Picard is working for the villain of the story. At the end of part 2, Picard sarcastically comments to Data that he's dead so he's going to take a nap, and Riker is an enemy of the Federation and needs to be imprisoned. Data doesn't realize it's sarcasm and proceeds to actually do it.

They blew through 10 episodes' worth of story in 88 minutes.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:51 pm 
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matta25 wrote:
I enjoyed the first season but the mirror universe stuff was pretty silly and pointless. The season was supposed to be about war with the Klingons but we barely saw any of it. Nothing particularly sticks out. Even the finale hardly showed them.


Very few SF shows have had either the idea, or the guts, to show a proper war campaign properly. A large part of the problem is that on the whole SF tends to show "clean" versions of the future, and war is rarely clean.

Part of the reason that "The Siege of AR-558" stood out for DS9 is that it actually did show the dirty side of war in what is, historically the very clean world of Star Trek. "In Th Pale Moonlight" did the same for the moral dimension. But for all of that the rest of the Dominion war in DS9, was still pretty clean.

A 12 month war with the Klingons isn't going to be all that clean, and the writers and producers involved probably were scared of losing their audience. Witness the panty wetting that a single scene with the Enterprise at the end of the season has created


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:58 pm 
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eldanielfire wrote:
Saint wrote:

I agree that overlong story arcs can have some dumb things going on as well - which is often down to the writer starting his overlong story arc without having a clear idea of where they're going (same is true of the old fashioned cliffhanger, where one writer had the responsibility of getting them to the cliff - cue music - and writer 2 comes alon and has to pick up the pieces). the trouble with TNG though is that they were often trying to go for some of the longer term effects, but unless is it was specifically going to form part of something you ended up with a great piece of episodic drama that genuinely just reset.

That was the TNG formula, and for some episodes it's perfectly fine. But when they make major changes to a character, or his history, or the organisation, or whatever during an episode, and then it's all forgotten, it jars a bit.


And thta's my point. It's an issue with the show runner or writers, not the format.


The runner and writers know the format they're delivering. They present an episode that should have consequences the hit reset

Or they present a story arc without a clear idea of the arc and then have to write increasingly preposterous ways to get out of the holes they've created.

One of the things that separated B5 from that was that the Bible was written before they started to tell the story. Even the JMS will readily admit he got stuff wrong, although some things were forced on him, either by actors quitting, or the studio threatening not to renew - hence the very rapid finish to the Earth civil war, and then a Duff final season as they suddenly had a season to fill but had run out of story to tell


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:37 pm 
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Good to see B5 get a mention, (mostly) outstanding sci-fi. I'm currently enjoying it all over again as it's being re-run on Freeview every night. Pisses all over DS9. There, I said it.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:49 pm 
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Saint wrote:

One of the things that separated B5 from that was that the Bible was written before they started to tell the story. Even the JMS will readily admit he got stuff wrong, although some things were forced on him, either by actors quitting, or the studio threatening not to renew - hence the very rapid finish to the Earth civil war, and then a Duff final season as they suddenly had a season to fill but had run out of story to tell

The problem with the last season was "The Telepath Wars" which I think was always going to be in the story but floundered because Byron and his groupies were such ponces ( Bester was always quite fun though ). JMS also had to tie up the story arcs for Lyta and Lenier which wasn't great either. The story relating to Centauri Prime/Londo and the aftermath of the Shadow War was excellent though, with it showing that the conflict didn't reach a neat and clean end for all.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:05 pm 
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Sandstorm wrote:
I got annoyed by the Tarens being completely unable to find Michael as she wandered around their ship.

Earlier that day...

Emperor: "Computer! Give me a full schematic of the enemy ship!"
Computer: (1/2 sec later) "Here you go Emperor"

Emperor: (as a laser beam is heading at her head) "Computer! Emergency transportation!"
Computer: (1/64 sec later) "Done"

Emperor: "Michael is hiding in the ship. Captain, take your guards and find her"

WTF??? :?



And on that point on Sci-Fi in general....why does every show have a huge craft that is protected by a force field that everyone on the rebel side knows can be disabled by a single person sneaking in, but

1) no-one on board the enemy ship seems to know about these controls
2) the controls for this function are found in a open, deserted corridor in an unlocked panel
3) there is no-one protecting said unlocked panel, even in the height of battle when the enemy is clearly desperately trying to bring down that shield to take out the ship???

Grrrrrr..... :x



Those Taraens were pretty shit. The Terrans, named after the latin name for Earth, are quite cool though.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:09 pm 
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tabascoboy wrote:
Saint wrote:

One of the things that separated B5 from that was that the Bible was written before they started to tell the story. Even the JMS will readily admit he got stuff wrong, although some things were forced on him, either by actors quitting, or the studio threatening not to renew - hence the very rapid finish to the Earth civil war, and then a Duff final season as they suddenly had a season to fill but had run out of story to tell

The problem with the last season was "The Telepath Wars" which I think was always going to be in the story but floundered because Byron and his groupies were such ponces ( Bester was always quite fun though ). JMS also had to tie up the story arcs for Lyta and Lenier which wasn't great either. The story relating to Centauri Prime/Londo and the aftermath of the Shadow War was excellent though, with it showing that the conflict didn't reach a neat and clean end for all.

So. E of it was going to be there, but definitely wasn't supposed to be front and centre. The main focus of the final season was supposed to be dealing with Earth, but that got compressed into tbe season before when thet thought the show was going to be cancelled.

It shows what happens when the writer loses control of the story arc


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:10 pm 
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Oxbow wrote:
Good to see B5 get a mention, (mostly) outstanding sci-fi. I'm currently enjoying it all over again as it's being re-run on Freeview every night. Pisses all over DS9. There, I said it.



Box set, ripped to NAS, and available on. Ple whenever i feel like it


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:17 pm 
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Saint wrote:
Oxbow wrote:
Good to see B5 get a mention, (mostly) outstanding sci-fi. I'm currently enjoying it all over again as it's being re-run on Freeview every night. Pisses all over DS9. There, I said it.



Box set, ripped to NAS, and available on. Ple whenever i feel like it


I've got all five seasons on VHS up in the attic, just haven't got anything to watch them on...


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:30 am 
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Saint wrote:
matta25 wrote:
I enjoyed the first season but the mirror universe stuff was pretty silly and pointless. The season was supposed to be about war with the Klingons but we barely saw any of it. Nothing particularly sticks out. Even the finale hardly showed them.


Very few SF shows have had either the idea, or the guts, to show a proper war campaign properly. A large part of the problem is that on the whole SF tends to show "clean" versions of the future, and war is rarely clean.

Part of the reason that "The Siege of AR-558" stood out for DS9 is that it actually did show the dirty side of war in what is, historically the very clean world of Star Trek. "In Th Pale Moonlight" did the same for the moral dimension. But for all of that the rest of the Dominion war in DS9, was still pretty clean.

A 12 month war with the Klingons isn't going to be all that clean, and the writers and producers involved probably were scared of losing their audience. Witness the panty wetting that a single scene with the Enterprise at the end of the season has created



I don't think they have any issue showing grim war stuff. They had mirror Gergiou slice her aides' heads with a ninja star thing. Or Lorca crush a man's head, throats slit multiple times etc.

Plus I don't need to see realism like those two DS9 episodes. Just seeing anything would have been a start. The Xindi season of Enterprise was much more focused and compelling. Nothing really stood out from the whole season apart from that (admittedly awesome) mission to destroy the Klingon ship.

Are the fanboys really whining about the Enterprise in that last shot? It was always going to show up at some point.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:41 am 
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fwiw BSG inc 2 feature length first eps are currently on Amazon prime video. Good quality too, better than my a'hem versions. Currently on season 2.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:24 am 
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DS9 was basically Game of Thrones in space. With all the various factions vying for power, morally grey characters, god's and demons, political intrigue, prophecies, big amazing cast, epic battles, multi season arcs and an apocalyptic enemy from a mysterious realm.

Varys is basically Garak.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:36 am 
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BlueThunder wrote:
DS9 was basically Game of Thrones in space. With all the various factions vying for power, morally grey characters, god's and demons, political intrigue, prophecies, big amazing cast, epic battles, multi season arcs and an apocalyptic enemy from a mysterious realm.

Varys is basically Garak.

But Garak was just a simple tailor...


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:55 am 
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slight Side trek here (see what I did there ?) but my fave Trek thing, was how they got over the continuity concerning Klingons:

originally they were swarthy, vaguely Japanese in look
Then they became sort of Space Keith Richards
Then they ended up as Worf, with Cornish pasty heads.

it was explained in the Next Generation or DS9 episode about the Tribbles, where they go back to original episode. One asks Worf 'who are those funny looking geezers ?"
Worf - "They - are Klingons"
eh ? what happeneded ?
Worf - "It is a long story" - and then the scene just cuts away to something different, and it is never mentioned again ! :lol:


tbh Worf was pretty much the only reason I ever watched star trek, he was ace.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:12 am 
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Rather he also said - ‘something we do not like to talk about ‘, ‘private’.

( or very similar)


Serious Trekkie mode


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:13 am 
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eugenius wrote:
Rather he also said - ‘something we do not like to talk about ‘, ‘private’.

( or very similar)


Serious Trekkie mode


google says it was 'we do not discuss this with outsiders'

I remembered it wrong, but do recall me laughing


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:20 am 
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backrow wrote:
slight Side trek here (see what I did there ?) but my fave Trek thing, was how they got over the continuity concerning Klingons:

originally they were swarthy, vaguely Japanese in look
Then they became sort of Space Keith Richards
Then they ended up as Worf, with Cornish pasty heads.

it was explained in the Next Generation or DS9 episode about the Tribbles, where they go back to original episode. One asks Worf 'who are those funny looking geezers ?"
Worf - "They - are Klingons"
eh ? what happeneded ?
Worf - "It is a long story" - and then the scene just cuts away to something different, and it is never mentioned again ! :lol:


tbh Worf was pretty much the only reason I ever watched star trek, he was ace.



It was sortofa covered in Enterprise, http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/incon ... eheads.htm


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