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 Post subject: Re: Julian Assange
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:50 am 
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Wilson's Toffee wrote:
ovalball wrote:
Wilson's Toffee wrote:
I remember the British Government shielding, aiding and even protecting several ANC irregular "fighters" (most bomb planters) in teh UK for many decades, because of the "just" struggle against and "unjust" SA government. Morality.

Does the UK perceive the USA to be just, moral, in their dealings as exposed by Assange ? Do they not have the same obligation to protect Assange against the unwelcome attentions of an unjust government ?


Very different circumstances - for starters, one is a democracy, the other was a regime based on apartheid - with whom we wouldn't have an extradition agreement. In each case we would follow our judicial process. If the extradition case is 'unjust' the UK court will not extradite - as was shown in the recent Hacker case.



You had an extradition agreement with your former colony. And please do not tell me UK courts will not support an "unjust" case.


FFS - you're comparing a country with whom we have normal relations with, to one with whom had sanctions against. Of course we would have treated requests from them differently.

The UK Judiciary is independent of Government - it will decide cases according to the law and has, on many previous occasions, shown it doesn't like 'big brother' types.

Even if it wasn't, are you suggesting that we just suspend our legal system for Assange ?


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 Post subject: Re: Julian Assange
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:52 am 
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Generally - there is little point arguing with conspiracy theorists.


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 Post subject: Re: Julian Assange
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:57 am 
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tc27 wrote:
Generally - there is little point arguing with conspiracy theorists.


Very true. But I just can't understand what they think the UK legal system should do - the guy has committed a reasonably serious crime in the UK and could be subject an extradition request from the US - there seems to be a suggestion that we just abandon our legal process and give him safe passage out of the country - and I just don't think that is possible in the UK.


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 Post subject: Re: Julian Assange
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:05 am 
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So all he's going to face is a charge of skipping bail? Are you interested in buy a bridge by any chance?

If you read the Guardian article quoted earlier you would know that the Crown Prosecution Service had tried to interfere with the case by coercing the Swedes not to drop the charges and telling them not interview him in the UK. Why should Assange feel safe if this is the level of corruption he's facing.


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 Post subject: Re: Julian Assange
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:08 am 
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CrazyIslander wrote:
So all he's going to face is a charge of skipping bail? Are you interested in buy a bridge by any chance?

If you read the Guardian article quoted earlier you would know that the Crown Prosecution Service had tried to interfere with the case by coercing the Swedes not to drop the charges and telling them not interview him in the UK. Why should Assange feel safe if this is the level of corruption he's facing.


On the other hand, why should he be allowed to rape people?


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 Post subject: Re: Julian Assange
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:10 am 
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CrazyIslander wrote:
So all he's going to face is a charge of skipping bail? Are you interested in buy a bridge by any chance?

If you read the Guardian article quoted earlier you would know that the Crown Prosecution Service had tried to interfere with the case by coercing the Swedes not to drop the charges and telling them not interview him in the UK. Why should Assange feel safe if this is the level of corruption he's facing.


Nope - atm he only faces that charge - but no one can guarantee that other charges will not be brought. The Swedes could re-instate their extradition request - the US may put in such a request. What is absolutely clear is that the UK can't give him a free pass - he will be subject to our legal process, just like everyone else.


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 Post subject: Re: Julian Assange
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:15 am 
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ovalball wrote:
Wilson's Toffee wrote:
ovalball wrote:
Wilson's Toffee wrote:
I remember the British Government shielding, aiding and even protecting several ANC irregular "fighters" (most bomb planters) in teh UK for many decades, because of the "just" struggle against and "unjust" SA government. Morality.

Does the UK perceive the USA to be just, moral, in their dealings as exposed by Assange ? Do they not have the same obligation to protect Assange against the unwelcome attentions of an unjust government ?


Very different circumstances - for starters, one is a democracy, the other was a regime based on apartheid - with whom we wouldn't have an extradition agreement. In each case we would follow our judicial process. If the extradition case is 'unjust' the UK court will not extradite - as was shown in the recent Hacker case.



You had an extradition agreement with your former colony. And please do not tell me UK courts will not support an "unjust" case.


FFS - you're comparing a country with whom we have normal relations with, to one with whom had sanctions against. Of course we would have treated requests from them differently.

The UK Judiciary is independent of Government - it will decide cases according to the law and has, on many previous occasions, shown it doesn't like 'big brother' types.

Even if it wasn't, are you suggesting that we just suspend our legal system for Assange ?



:lol:

The UK has ever liked Big Brothers - in my opinion. When it suited them ...

The USA has sanctions against Russia, today. I think even the UK has.
Does that make Vlad Putin persona non grata in the UK ? Or a valued trade partner ?


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 Post subject: Re: Julian Assange
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:16 am 
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I'd also point out that there are loads of occasions where our Judiciary have acted against the wishes of our own Government, especially in case of human rights where people (some very undesirable/illegal immigrants) could not be deported because the courts found that they might be ill treated on return to their own country - many of these case have left ministers furious - but the Judiciary are independent, so they make their own decisions.


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 Post subject: Re: Julian Assange
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:16 am 
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Jay Cee Gee wrote:
Fair enough Kiap - question though....

Why do you think the Swedish authorities originally sought to charge him with rape and other offences?

Originally, they didn't. The police filed an investigation and the Stockholm prosecutor, after the women were interviewed, dropped the rape charge the next day as without evidence.

The woman never alleged she was raped.

But then the case becomes a tangled web involving the legal system, politicians, media and international pressure ...

Here is some documentation on the AGREED STATEMENTS OF FACTS in the case from the UK Supreme Court:


1. The women [AA and SW] went to the police wanting to make Assange get a medical test for STDs.

    Image
    Spoiler: show
    Image
    Over their protests, the police treat their visit as a reporting of crime, and open an investigation. SMS text messages from the younger woman [SW] supposedly raped [lesser rape], recorded from her phone at the police station show:

    • She did “not want to accuse him of anything”
    • “It was the police who made up the charges”, and
    • She told her friend she “felt railroaded by police”.

2. The prosecutor then cancelled the arrest warrant, assessing the evidence did not support a rape offence.


3. Assange cooperates with the investigation, and is interviewed by police.


4. The politician Claes Borgstrom, who was running under a Social Democrat ticket for Justice Minister position becomes the legal representative for the two women. The older of the two women [AA] is also a politician and staffer for the Social Democrats.

  • Borgstrom does dozens of media interviews about the case in the run up to the elections.
  • He presses the case which is resurrected under another prosecutor (the 3rd), reopening the investigation into the "lesser rape" of the younger woman [SW].
  • Borgstrom was later fired by the younger woman [SW] because, she claims, he pays more attention to the media than to his client. She also later publicly stated “I have not been raped”.

After his arrest warrant had been dropped, Assange waits a further two weeks in Sweden, after requesting to be re-interviewed. The request is deferred by the prosecuter and Assange obtains written permission from the prosecution to leave the country. After another two weeks he leaves the country.

Jay Cee Gee wrote:
I don't doubt there's been pressure placed on Sweden and I don't doubt that Assange strongly suspected he'd be extradited. But I also suspect the allegations against him are true, so the martyr stuff is kind of on the nose.


Well, they didn't include a rape allegation from the alleged "rape victim". Quite the contrary.


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 Post subject: Re: Julian Assange
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:20 am 
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Posters are also confusing the CPS up with the Judiciary - two very different bodies in the legal process. The Judiciary have been extremely critical of the CPS in recent times and often hold them to account for actions that Judges find unacceptable.


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 Post subject: Re: Julian Assange
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:23 am 
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kiap wrote:
Jay Cee Gee wrote:
Fair enough Kiap - question though....

Why do you think the Swedish authorities originally sought to charge him with rape and other offences?

Originally, they didn't. The police filed an investigation and the Stockholm prosecutor, after the women were interviewed, dropped the rape charge the next day as without evidence.

The woman never alleged she was raped.

But then the case becomes a tangled web involving the legal system, politicians, media and international pressure ...

Here is some documentation on the AGREED STATEMENTS OF FACTS in the case from the UK Supreme Court:


1. The women [AA and SW] went to the police wanting to make Assange get a medical test for STDs.

    Image
    Spoiler: show
    Image
    Over their protests, the police treat their visit as a reporting of crime, and open an investigation. SMS text messages from the younger woman [SW] supposedly raped [lesser rape], recorded from her phone at the police station show:

    • She did “not want to accuse him of anything”
    • “It was the police who made up the charges”, and
    • She told her friend she “felt railroaded by police”.

2. The prosecutor then cancelled the arrest warrant, assessing the evidence did not support a rape offence.


3. Assange cooperates with the investigation, and is interviewed by police.


4. The politician Claes Borgstrom, who was running under a Social Democrat ticket for Justice Minister position becomes the legal representative for the two women. The older of the two women [AA] is also a politician and staffer for the Social Democrats.

  • Borgstrom does dozens of media interviews about the case in the run up to the elections.
  • He presses the case which is resurrected under another prosecutor (the 3rd), reopening the investigation into the "lesser rape" of the younger woman [SW].
  • Borgstrom was later fired by the younger woman [SW] because, she claims, he pays more attention to the media than to his client. She also later publicly stated “I have not been raped”.

After his arrest warrant had been dropped, Assange waits a further two weeks in Sweden, after requesting to be re-interviewed. The request is deferred by the prosecuter and Assange obtains written permission from the prosecution to leave the country. After another two weeks he leaves the country.

Jay Cee Gee wrote:
I don't doubt there's been pressure placed on Sweden and I don't doubt that Assange strongly suspected he'd be extradited. But I also suspect the allegations against him are true, so the martyr stuff is kind of on the nose.


Well, they didn't include a rape allegation from the alleged "rape victim". Quite the contrary.


We can't be held responsible for what Sweden do - they have a far different system to us.

But, he came to the UK, hence he became subject to our legal system - no one asked him to come here.


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 Post subject: Re: Julian Assange
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:33 am 
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ovalball wrote:
We can't be held responsible for what Sweden do - they have a far different system to us.

But, he came to the UK, hence he became subject to our legal system - no one asked him to come here.

That's great 'n' all, dude. :)

But nothing to do with my post.


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 Post subject: Re: Julian Assange
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:38 am 
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kiap wrote:
ovalball wrote:
We can't be held responsible for what Sweden do - they have a far different system to us.

But, he came to the UK, hence he became subject to our legal system - no one asked him to come here.

That's great 'n' all, dude. :)

But nothing to do with my post.


I can't help it if you make irrelevant posts :P


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 Post subject: Re: Julian Assange
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:47 am 
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ovalball wrote:
kiap wrote:
ovalball wrote:
We can't be held responsible for what Sweden do - they have a far different system to us.

But, he came to the UK, hence he became subject to our legal system - no one asked him to come here.

That's great 'n' all, dude. :)

But nothing to do with my post.


I can't help it if you make irrelevant posts :P


What are you saying?

You gotta know I bush-lawyered the f**k outta this case with that post.

Slam-dunk!

Out of the park!

What do you call that score over the rugby goal line again? Oh, yeah, a Touchdown !!


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 Post subject: Re: Julian Assange
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:52 am 
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kiap wrote:
ovalball wrote:
kiap wrote:
ovalball wrote:
We can't be held responsible for what Sweden do - they have a far different system to us.

But, he came to the UK, hence he became subject to our legal system - no one asked him to come here.

That's great 'n' all, dude. :)

But nothing to do with my post.


I can't help it if you make irrelevant posts :P


What are you saying?

You gotta know I bush-lawyered the f**k outta this case with that post.

Slam-dunk!

Out of the park!

What do you call that score over the rugby goal line again? Oh, yeah, a Touchdown !!


Typical of Americans to call something a Touchdown when they don't, actually, have to touch it down at all in their sport.

You've convinced me - we shouldn't extradite anyone to a nation like that.


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 Post subject: Re: Julian Assange
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:52 am 
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:lol: :thumbup: :nod:


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 Post subject: Re: Julian Assange
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:27 pm 
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Ah, Assange can walk out the door whenever he likes, Sweden has never extradited anyone to the US, the UK government can't even send extremist Islamic hate-preachers away without the courts permission based on law and his supporters believe from the start that there is a secret conspiracy because Assange invented it based off no evidence and jacking any move he doesn't like into the conspiracy story.

Despite the fact he is a f**king liar "I'll turn myself in if Chelsea Manning is let go, oh wait I WON'T!" Asange is to be believe by his fanatical followers all the way still. Heck he even has a favourable US president he helped into power (directly or indirectly) who clearly backs his helpers no matter how absurd the situation and Assange still won't leave the building. Elvis he is not!


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 Post subject: Re: Julian Assange
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:28 pm 
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kiap wrote:
What are you saying?

You gotta know I bush-lawyered the f**k outta this case with that post.

Slam-dunk!

Out of the park!

What do you call that score over the rugby goal line again? Oh, yeah, a Touchdown !!


You did kinda slam the shit out of the whole thing there...

but conspiracy theorists dude. You can't reason with them.


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 Post subject: Re: Julian Assange
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:34 pm 
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Anyway, I suspect he's going to be holed up in that Embassy building for a while yet.

I wonder if he's checked to see when their lease runs out - if they have to move, he's fecked.


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 Post subject: Re: Julian Assange
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:39 pm 
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He can always dig a tunnel ...


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 Post subject: Re: Julian Assange
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:56 pm 
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Assange certainly gets people's backs up.


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 Post subject: Re: Julian Assange
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:36 pm 
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Plato'sCave wrote:
Assange certainly gets people's backs up.


He certainly doesn’t cut a sympathetic figure.


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 Post subject: Re: Julian Assange
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:15 pm 
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ovalball wrote:
Plato'sCave wrote:
Assange certainly gets people's backs up.


He certainly doesn’t cut a sympathetic figure.


Agreed.


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 Post subject: Re: Julian Assange
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:19 pm 
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Plato'sCave wrote:
Assange certainly gets people's backs up.



Does he? Certainly Clinton supporters in 2016. But what didn't get their backs up? And of course his fairly fanatical supporters. Most people mock him really as silly at his claims he is detained and there are secret agreements to get him locked up in the USA are ridiculous. Nobody is preventing him walking out the door.


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 Post subject: Re: Julian Assange
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:22 pm 
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Perhaps, now that he is a citizen of Equador, he’ll make a stand against their shocking civil rights violations, suppression of the free press, etc..................


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 Post subject: Re: Julian Assange
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:29 pm 
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It is not necessary for a victim to make an accusation in order for the police to lodge charges. Murder cases would be difficult in that kind of world.


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 Post subject: Re: Julian Assange
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:30 pm 
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eldanielfire wrote:
Plato'sCave wrote:
Assange certainly gets people's backs up.



Does he? Certainly Clinton supporters in 2016. But what didn't get their backs up? And of course his fairly fanatical supporters. Most people mock him really as silly at his claims he is detained and there are secret agreements to get him locked up in the USA are ridiculous. Nobody is preventing him walking out the door.


He doesn’t interest me at all any more, nor do those he antagonises, I was merely pointing out that when someone mentions his name it seems to provoke a elevation in emotion. Just something I’ve noticed.


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 Post subject: Re: Julian Assange
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:39 pm 
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Santa wrote:
It is not necessary for a victim to make an accusation in order for the police to lodge charges. Murder cases would be difficult in that kind of world.



And if the victim keeps on asserting that he was not murdered, does not want the accused to stand trial for murder ?


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 Post subject: Re: Julian Assange
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:00 pm 
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Wilson's Toffee wrote:
Santa wrote:
It is not necessary for a victim to make an accusation in order for the police to lodge charges. Murder cases would be difficult in that kind of world.



And if the victim keeps on asserting that he was not murdered, does not want the accused to stand trial for murder ?

I guess that's a daily occurrence in south African courts 😉


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 Post subject: Re: Julian Assange
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:02 pm 
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happyhooker wrote:
Wilson's Toffee wrote:
Santa wrote:
It is not necessary for a victim to make an accusation in order for the police to lodge charges. Murder cases would be difficult in that kind of world.



And if the victim keeps on asserting that he was not murdered, does not want the accused to stand trial for murder ?

I guess that's a daily occurrence in south African courts 😉



Watch our President, he will return for another 8 years ...


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