Planet Rugby Forum

Boobs not Moobs wrote:

A police officer who was on duty at a Florida high school and did nothing to stop gunman Nikolas Cruz when he started his massacre has been suspended.

Deputy Scot Peterson, who was armed with a handgun, didn't follow police procedure and immediately confront Cruz when he started his rampage killing 17 people with an AR-15 assault rifle, according to the Broward County Sheriff's department.

Instead he took cover at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School for upwards of four minutes and 'never went in ', according to Sheriff Scott Israel who said Peterson's actions left him 'Sick to my stomach. There are no words.'

Israel added that the school resources officer should have have 'gone in, addressed the killer and killed the killer.'

Aside from the obvious point, how insane is it to have armed police at a school in a country like the US.

Armed policeman was needed. Edit : As can be seen by developments. And was there. But did not do his job, again.

Wilson's Toffee wrote:

Torquemada 1420 wrote:

Wilson's Toffee wrote:People have to stick up for each other in times of high stress. Normally they do. Being trained and equipped to handle a situation would help them a lot.
Teachers could, of course, probably, want more pay .. something like "danger pay" - which they would deserve.

You are full on delusional.

A close friend of mine's career involved being armed. It was what he did, every day of his life. He was trained. Properly.

In 2005 when armed police shot De Menenez in London, I posted that it looked like a f**k up. Partly because my friend had highlighted specific elements to me of the incident but the main point he made was that even though those officers were professional enforcement AND had gun training, they had no experience under real pressure. They panicked.

In his entire career of dealing with the real bad guys, my friend tells me he has never had to kill anyone because years of experience allowed him that luxury. FWIW, he is entirely against the idea of armed police in the UK on any sort of scale.

And you reckon a 1 day training course at your local duck shoot is going to be of any significance?

I said trained. Like in decently trained, by professional people.
That means trained. And refreshing all the time.
Not a little "certificate" officiating the skills, issued by some alphabet body, but real skills.

As for "delusional" - did you ever have to carry a firearm, in earnest ? Like in, in line of duty ? Or in circumstances dictating the utter need of it ?

I have just highlighted that even "trained" police are probably not up to the job and you counter with the argument that a school teacher can be sufficiently equipped to tackle a role the police are incapable of. Well done for deductive reasoning.

Ummm. No. You aren't really keeping up here, are you? I'm on the side of the argument that says guns are bad.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: I have just highlighted that even "trained" police are probably not up to the job and you counter with the argument that a school teacher can be sufficiently equipped to tackle a role the police are incapable of. Well done for deductive reasoning.

Ummm. No. You aren't really keeping up here, are you? I'm on the side of the argument that says guns are bad.

Maybe YOU are not quite keeping up. I come from a country and an era when most men here were at least militarily trained and most acquired at least some experience. Many were officers in the military, some even fighting men (not desk soldiers), others were reservist policemen 9in a police force who constantly had run-ins with terrorists) so the capability of teachers to be trained for such an eventuality has been proved over and over. Do not think they are all softies or incapable just because they prefer to teach.

As for the UK policemen that did not come up to standards - training and conditioning, mostly, I would hazard. After selection, of course. The bored's UK policemen and soldiery would be capable to answer that.
You need a nice little local war in the UK to re-adjust your civilian thinking.

If not arming the teachers what about arming the buildings? Not some sort of robotic sentry gun but something like making it harder to enter the school and class room with reinforced doors that can't be kicked down or locks shot open or bulletproof windows or maybe better escape routes that can only be initiated from the inside. I have no experience of this kind of thing so I may be completely barking up the wrong tree but perhaps there are ways to combat guns without more guns.

Wilson's Toffee wrote:

Torquemada 1420 wrote: I have just highlighted that even "trained" police are probably not up to the job and you counter with the argument that a school teacher can be sufficiently equipped to tackle a role the police are incapable of. Well done for deductive reasoning.

Ummm. No. You aren't really keeping up here, are you? I'm on the side of the argument that says guns are bad.

Maybe YOU are not quite keeping up. I come from a country and an era when most men here were at least militarily trained and most acquired at least some experience.

I'll stop you there then. How does this apply to teachers in the USA? Maybe any teachers need to be sent to an active war zone first?

Torquemada 1420 wrote:

Wilson's Toffee wrote:

Torquemada 1420 wrote: I have just highlighted that even "trained" police are probably not up to the job and you counter with the argument that a school teacher can be sufficiently equipped to tackle a role the police are incapable of. Well done for deductive reasoning.

Ummm. No. You aren't really keeping up here, are you? I'm on the side of the argument that says guns are bad.

Maybe YOU are not quite keeping up. I come from a country and an era when most men here were at least militarily trained and most acquired at least some experience.

I'll stop you there then. How does this apply to teachers in the USA? Maybe any teachers need to be sent to an active war zone first?

You've just nailed Trump's master plan to recruit ex-military men as teachers

How does it feel to be agreeing with Trump?

Torquemada 1420 wrote:

Wilson's Toffee wrote:

Torquemada 1420 wrote: I have just highlighted that even "trained" police are probably not up to the job and you counter with the argument that a school teacher can be sufficiently equipped to tackle a role the police are incapable of. Well done for deductive reasoning.

Ummm. No. You aren't really keeping up here, are you? I'm on the side of the argument that says guns are bad.

Maybe YOU are not quite keeping up. I come from a country and an era when most men here were at least militarily trained and most acquired at least some experience.

I'll stop you there then. How does this apply to teachers in the USA? Maybe any teachers need to be sent to an active war zone first?

Teachers who WERE and had experience of active war zones might be employed, why not ? As said, the USA armed forces vets might have some very interesting characters available .. with some decent qualifications. I am quite sure some ex-policemen would also be willing to spend a second career teaching ... under the right circumstances.

I can see the local antifa chapters piss their pants when the US Army deploys a series of lecturers...

bessantj wrote:If not arming the teachers what about arming the buildings? Not some sort of robotic sentry gun but something like making it harder to enter the school and class room with reinforced doors that can't be kicked down or locks shot open or bulletproof windows or maybe better escape routes that can only be initiated from the inside. I have no experience of this kind of thing so I may be completely barking up the wrong tree but perhaps there are ways to combat guns without more guns.

You are definitely onto something here, with modern camera tech it must be easy to identify anyone through facial recognition software that is not meant to be at the school. Any face that pops up not on the approved list the robot sentry takes them out before they have a chance to do anything.

This could of course then be extended through the extensive CCTV network and you could have the robot armed sentries spread throughout the city and country, go somewhere unapproved, bang. Might take a couple of days of teething problems but people will soon get with the program and only go where they have prior approval.

Lorthern Nights wrote:

bessantj wrote:If not arming the teachers what about arming the buildings? Not some sort of robotic sentry gun but something like making it harder to enter the school and class room with reinforced doors that can't be kicked down or locks shot open or bulletproof windows or maybe better escape routes that can only be initiated from the inside. I have no experience of this kind of thing so I may be completely barking up the wrong tree but perhaps there are ways to combat guns without more guns.

You are definitely onto something here, with modern camera tech it must be easy to identify anyone through facial recognition software that is not meant to be at the school. Any face that pops up not on the approved list the robot sentry takes them out before they have a chance to do anything.

This could of course then be extended through the extensive CCTV network and you could have the robot armed sentries spread throughout the city and country, go somewhere unapproved, bang. Might take a couple of days of teething problems but people will soon get with the program and only go where they have prior approval.

Well that sounds terrifying

Lorthern Nights wrote:

bessantj wrote:If not arming the teachers what about arming the buildings? Not some sort of robotic sentry gun but something like making it harder to enter the school and class room with reinforced doors that can't be kicked down or locks shot open or bulletproof windows or maybe better escape routes that can only be initiated from the inside. I have no experience of this kind of thing so I may be completely barking up the wrong tree but perhaps there are ways to combat guns without more guns.

You are definitely onto something here, with modern camera tech it must be easy to identify anyone through facial recognition software that is not meant to be at the school. Any face that pops up not on the approved list the robot sentry takes them out before they have a chance to do anything.

This could of course then be extended through the extensive CCTV network and you could have the robot armed sentries spread throughout the city and country, go somewhere unapproved, bang. Might take a couple of days of teething problems but people will soon get with the program and only go where they have prior approval.

I suppose "arming the buildings" isn't the best phrase but you know what I mean.

Most soldiers are thick and not remotely qualified to be teachers. They would need a degree in specialist subjects for starters. Plus intensive weapons training a la special forces.

And most of the millions of teachers would not have anything to do with carrying and using a weapon.

The idea is ridiculous.....but hardly surprising coming from Trump and the NRA.

What is the problem with proper vetting as they do in many other countries, and getting rid of military style weapons for civilians.

obelixtim wrote:Most soldiers are thick and not remotely qualified to be teachers. They would need a degree in specialist subjects for starters. Plus intensive weapons training a la special forces.

And most of the millions of teachers would not have anything to do with carrying and using a weapon.

The idea is ridiculous.....but hardly surprising coming from Trump and the NRA.

What is the problem with proper vetting as they do in many other countries, and getting rid of military style weapons for civilians.

Who will do the vetting ? The same FBI that ignored the Cruz reports ? Or the police that also played down his problems, or hid when he became a sudden HUGE problem ?

FYI - a single shot rifle kills just as efficiently as a semi-automatic or a fully automatic weapon. Sometimes more. In skilled hands they are in some circumstances even more lethal.
Banning AR15s will not solve the problem, taking care of mentally ill Americans just might be a decent start. And addressing their problems...

(For those raving and slavering now - read my views on issue of firearms to mental cases, mental evaluation, arms registry, etc. etc. A few pages ago.)

EDIT : How many teachers, acting as a "reaction force", would be needed at any one school ? Two ? Five ?
Not many, I guarantee.

obelixtim wrote:Most soldiers are thick and not remotely qualified to be teachers. They would need a degree in specialist subjects for starters. Plus intensive weapons training a la special forces.

And most of the millions of teachers would not have anything to do with carrying and using a weapon.

The idea is ridiculous.....but hardly surprising coming from Trump and the NRA.

What is the problem with proper vetting as they do in many other countries, and getting rid of military style weapons for civilians.

Well, apparently this would be an intolerable violation of the right of everybody to carry any weapon they damned well like.

Wilson's Toffee wrote:
I can see the local antifa chapters piss their pants when the US Army deploys a series of lecturers...

Actually I’d pay to see that.

Sandstorm wrote:

Wilson's Toffee wrote:
I can see the local antifa chapters piss their pants when the US Army deploys a series of lecturers...

Actually I’d pay to see that.

Sandy - aren't you a teacher ? In civvy life ?

Wilson's Toffee wrote:

Sandstorm wrote:

Wilson's Toffee wrote:
I can see the local antifa chapters piss their pants when the US Army deploys a series of lecturers...

Actually I’d pay to see that.

Sandy - aren't you a teacher ? In civvy life ?

No, my brother is. Yank13 is a teacher

Actually WHERE THE FUDGE is Yank13 on this thread??? He’s a gun-nut teacher who lives in Florida!!!

Tell us buddy - you want to wear a Glock to school assembly on Monday?

Sandstorm wrote:

Wilson's Toffee wrote:

Sandstorm wrote:

Wilson's Toffee wrote:
I can see the local antifa chapters piss their pants when the US Army deploys a series of lecturers...

Actually I’d pay to see that.

Sandy - aren't you a teacher ? In civvy life ?

No, my brother is. Yank13 is a teacher

So is Obelixtm right - soldiers are too dumb to be teachers ?

Sandstorm wrote:Actually WHERE THE FUDGE is Yank13 on this thread??? He’s a gun-nut teacher who lives in Florida!!!

Tell us buddy - you want to wear a Glock to school assembly on Monday?

Reloading his BAR clips, for fast action.

Wilson's Toffee wrote:

Sandstorm wrote:

Wilson's Toffee wrote:

Sandstorm wrote:

Wilson's Toffee wrote:
I can see the local antifa chapters piss their pants when the US Army deploys a series of lecturers...

Actually I’d pay to see that.

Sandy - aren't you a teacher ? In civvy life ?

No, my brother is. Yank13 is a teacher

So is Obelixtm right - soldiers are too dumb to be teachers ?

There was a drive on here to get ex squaddies into teaching a few years ago. If nothing else the fat wee obnoxious cvnts would become fit as fvck and disciplined.

"You think Harold MacMillan is the answer.....? Because of your stupidity the whole class, at the speed of a thousand gazelles*, will run up that hill and each bring me a snowball. LAST 10 GO AGAIN!"



*I've never been sure why 1000 would be faster than 1 unless they're competitive gazelles.

OptimisticJock wrote: There was a drive on here to get ex squaddies into teaching a few years ago. If nothing else the fat wee obnoxious cvnts would become fit as fvck and disciplined.

"You think Harold MacMillan is the answer.....? Because of your stupidity the whole class, at the speed of a thousand gazelles*, will run up that hill and each bring me a snowball. LAST 10 GO AGAIN!"



*I've never been sure why 1000 would be faster than 1 unless they're competitive gazelles.

Wilson's Toffee wrote:

obelixtim wrote:Most soldiers are thick and not remotely qualified to be teachers. They would need a degree in specialist subjects for starters. Plus intensive weapons training a la special forces.

And most of the millions of teachers would not have anything to do with carrying and using a weapon.

The idea is ridiculous.....but hardly surprising coming from Trump and the NRA.

What is the problem with proper vetting as they do in many other countries, and getting rid of military style weapons for civilians.

Who will do the vetting ? The same FBI that ignored the Cruz reports ? Or the police that also played down his problems, or hid when he became a sudden HUGE problem ?

FYI - a single shot rifle kills just as efficiently as a semi-automatic or a fully automatic weapon. Sometimes more. In skilled hands they are in some circumstances even more lethal.
Banning AR15s will not solve the problem, taking care of mentally ill Americans just might be a decent start. And addressing their problems...

(For those raving and slavering now - read my views on issue of firearms to mental cases, mental evaluation, arms registry, etc. etc. A few pages ago.)

EDIT : How many teachers, acting as a "reaction force", would be needed at any one school ? Two ? Five ?
Not many, I guarantee.

In countries with effective gun control policies, the police are the vetting agency. Anyone with mental issues would have no chance of obtaining a licence, and a very slim chance of obtaining a weapon, even on the black market. The model is there, the Septics just have to develop the will to implement it.

When NZ changed its gun licencing laws, I didn't bother renewing my licence, because the hassle and cost became too much. I gave my guns to a mate who did have a licence and secure storage. I can still go hunting with him, so it is not a problem.

And yes, with a bolt action rifle, and controlled firing, I could take out a lot of people in a short time in a crowded place, but a high powered military style semi automatic (or fully automatic, if modified) has no place in civilian hands. I would be hampered by the limitations we have on magazine capacity for a start.

Read the report from the physician who has experience of dealing with gunshot wounds and why the damage from this AR 15 was unlike damage from other bullet wounds he's treated.

Until they ban these weapons and have effective vetting, massacres will continue. There are too many people with mental issues, with unfettered access to guns. Its why you need references from people in NZ in order to apply for a gun licence. The police will also check your storage facilities.

It can be fixed quite easily, but until the NRA is put in a box marked "terrorist organisation" it won't be.

And they have the cheek to go on about muslim terrorists!

"Run to that tree and bring me a leaf!!"

Squaddie comes back panting, with leaf.

"Wrong leaf, dummy! Go again!"

Sandstorm wrote:"Run to that tree and bring me a leaf!!"

Squaddie comes back panting, with leaf.

"Wrong leaf, dummy! Go again!"

Sandstorm wrote:"Run to that tree and bring me a leaf!!"

Squaddie comes back panting, with leaf.

"Wrong leaf, dummy! Go again!"

I "my days" the correct term was "Pielvel !" (foreskin), not "Dummy!"

Just reminiscing.

obelixtim wrote:
In countries with effective gun control policies, the police are the vetting agency. Anyone with mental issues would have no chance of obtaining a licence, and a very slim chance of obtaining a weapon, even on the black market. The model is there, the Septics just have to develop the will to implement it.

When NZ changed its gun licencing laws, I didn't bother renewing my licence, because the hassle and cost became too much. I gave my guns to a mate who did have a licence and secure storage. I can still go hunting with him, so it is not a problem.

And yes, with a bolt action rifle, and controlled firing, I could take out a lot of people in a short time in a crowded place, but a high powered military style semi automatic (or fully automatic, if modified) has no place in civilian hands. I would be hampered by the limitations we have on magazine capacity for a start.

Read the report from the physician who has experience of dealing with gunshot wounds and why the damage from this AR 15 was unlike damage from other bullet wounds he's treated.

Until they ban these weapons and have effective vetting, massacres will continue. There are too many people with mental issues, with unfettered access to guns. Its why you need references from people in NZ in order to apply for a gun licence. The police will also check your storage facilities.

It can be fixed quite easily, but until the NRA is put in a box marked "terrorist organisation" it won't be.

And they have the cheek to go on about muslim terrorists!

I agree about the systems and the vetting and even the availability of semi-autos and autos. Systems are available, and can be implemented if the political (and administrative ) will were there.
I disagree mildly on caliber, weapons fokken HURT !.. All of them. I've seen many a violet protester run around protesting vehemently, with a hole or two from 5.56 NATO origin in his skin ..
But that aside, I agree IN PRINCIPLE with several aspects of gun control and vetting and even licensing. I would be even more strict, in ensuring that the applicant belongs to a well regulated militia, with legal implications for them and himself in the case of transgressions ... USE the constitution, do not oppose it ...

But then the relevant authorities and bodies have to step up, be counted and take responsibility. Like the police and FBI did not, in the Cruz case.

I cannot get on the case of the NRA, at this stage, it seems too much of a witch hunt. It might change, but this is premature imho.

EDIT : But ALWAYS, there must be restraint, in not overreacting, by State ...

The jaws of power are always open to devour, and her arm is always stretched out, if possible, to destroy the freedom of thinking, speaking, and writing.

John Adams.

Kiwias wrote:You've just nailed Trump's master plan to recruit ex-military men as teachers

Looks like Trump is going to need a lot more wars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Fort_Hood_shooting

Army Reserve Captain John Gaffaney tried to stop Hasan by charging him, but was mortally wounded before reaching him.[22] Civilian physician assistant Michael Cahill also tried to charge Hasan with a chair, but was shot and killed.[23] Army Reserve Specialist Logan Burnett tried to stop Hasan by throwing a folding table at him, but he was shot in the left hip, fell down, and crawled to a nearby cubicle.[24]

Was someone, I think Smee, talking about an offensive action while there was a shooter?

Also not that it was a military because the idea guns would deter someone from going on a killing spree is foolproof.

Or even the Dallas gunman who took out 5 cops!!

This was an interesting vid: Proof that Concealed Carry permit holders live in a dream world. The title ins a bit inflammatory but it was still quite interesting to see how people got on.

Seems a teacher was demoing a gun at school today and actually shot himself in the foot!

Sandstorm wrote:Seems a teacher was demoing a gun at school today and actually shot himself in the foot!

Give the man a Purple Heart...

Maybe lessons in firearm safety should be compulsory for all.

Wilson's Toffee wrote:
Maybe lessons in firearm safety should be compulsory for all.

Or.....we could live somewhere where it will never be required.

Given that attempting a mass shooting at a school is not the action of a rational individual, I hardly think arming teachers is going to be much of a deterrent.

Sandstorm wrote:

Wilson's Toffee wrote:
Maybe lessons in firearm safety should be compulsory for all.

Or.....we could live somewhere where it will never be required.

Japan

Look at this mess of a comment



I know it's STDH but still.

Sort of. Times changed.

Wilson's Toffee wrote:

Sandstorm wrote:

Wilson's Toffee wrote:

Sandstorm wrote:

Wilson's Toffee wrote:
I can see the local antifa chapters piss their pants when the US Army deploys a series of lecturers...

Actually I’d pay to see that.

Sandy - aren't you a teacher ? In civvy life ?

No, my brother is. Yank13 is a teacher

So is Obelixtm right - soldiers are too dumb to be teachers ?

Not in America where dumb is a national pastime.

Charming

Sandstorm wrote:Seems a teacher was demoing a gun at school today and actually shot himself in the foot!

The most common injury to US "highly trained" enforcement professionals.

One of these days you will get SEAL trained pedagogues ...