Planet Rugby Forum

Nolanator wrote:

Zakar wrote:Top 14 clubs are notorious for having a Laissez-faire attitude to fitness. It's endemic. Some "anglo" players hire their own PTs to keep their fitness up, as the clubs do fudge all fitness work. Some will aparently have a spread of wine and cheese on the sideline during team runs though, do that's nice

When Grenoble were promoted to the Top14 a few years ago, Bernard Jackman was involved int he coaching staff and said that they initially had some great results simply by focusing on the S& aspect of the squad. They didn't have the same numbers of marque players as more established Top14 clubs, but their conditioning won them lots of games.

Regarding attitude problems, there also seems to be a weird approach to away games. Players/clubs just don't seem to give a shit if they lose away from home to teams way below them in the league.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: I'm agreeing with you.
But it won't fix the structural problems:
- unsustainable economic model for nearly every club with the consequent boom and bust for everyone bar Clermont
- too many foreigner journeymen sapping resource, blocking the route for Fre players (esp young ones) and on short contracts to they aren't there long enough to embed or pass on anything useful
- too many games = injuries, tedious rugby etc
- focus on bosh rather than skills from an increasingly earlier age
- corruption throughout

Do I need to continue?

eldanielfire wrote:

Dork Lard wrote:
With a strong bench, could you not take that team and make it well drilled for the first time ever in this current era, and make them seriously competitive ? The cardio had not been a problem during the past 6 years, we never saw France break down physically and it wasn't fatigue but cluelessness that lost them all those games, and if the fitness isn't elite either the guys if anything when they do get tired, get tired because they're playing aimless one-off Rugby where other teams are focused and channel their efforts through the collective.
The players are coming in, every month there's a brand new face, and the U20 are full of interesting young talent, and at club level the French are doing well every year.

That's an out of date perception. Fitness isn't just about not being huffing towards the end of the match. Constantly playing rugby will ensure that. A really good fitness level means during the intense, high workrate sections of the match your brain isn't just focused on getting to the next ruck or waiting for a break in play, but that you are still able to think with clarity, absorb information on the game in front of you, process it and make the right decisions. Basically cluelessness at test level can be largely down to fitness.

Being "well drilled" might resolve some of it, having a series of responses to certain situations helps it, but it doesn't resolve it and doesn't help with dealing with unique situations, broken play, being in a unusual position, adapting to tactics and changes the opposition make as well as surprises. That by far has been a huge part of Eddie Jones success with Japan and England as well as having them well drilled among other things. England today aren't playing the bets ever Rugby I've seen from them, they are however playing some of the cleverest and hardest to beat rugby. They seem to be able to out adapt opponents even when their attack is not firing.

Dork Lard wrote:

eldanielfire wrote:

Dork Lard wrote:
With a strong bench, could you not take that team and make it well drilled for the first time ever in this current era, and make them seriously competitive ? The cardio had not been a problem during the past 6 years, we never saw France break down physically and it wasn't fatigue but cluelessness that lost them all those games, and if the fitness isn't elite either the guys if anything when they do get tired, get tired because they're playing aimless one-off Rugby where other teams are focused and channel their efforts through the collective.
The players are coming in, every month there's a brand new face, and the U20 are full of interesting young talent, and at club level the French are doing well every year.

That's an out of date perception. Fitness isn't just about not being huffing towards the end of the match. Constantly playing rugby will ensure that. A really good fitness level means during the intense, high workrate sections of the match your brain isn't just focused on getting to the next ruck or waiting for a break in play, but that you are still able to think with clarity, absorb information on the game in front of you, process it and make the right decisions. Basically cluelessness at test level can be largely down to fitness.

Being "well drilled" might resolve some of it, having a series of responses to certain situations helps it, but it doesn't resolve it and doesn't help with dealing with unique situations, broken play, being in a unusual position, adapting to tactics and changes the opposition make as well as surprises. That by far has been a huge part of Eddie Jones success with Japan and England as well as having them well drilled among other things. England today aren't playing the bets ever Rugby I've seen from them, they are however playing some of the cleverest and hardest to beat rugby. They seem to be able to out adapt opponents even when their attack is not firing.

I know what you're saying man, but I assure you it really hasn't been a 'chief concern' let's say for France over 6 years. Cardio's not the best, but doesn't constitute an actual problem either. Again it's so much more linked to every player for himself playing heroball, one off individual initiative, than actual cardio issues. If you look at how they defended vs Scotland just that last game they looked more individual than collective, and when you're disorganized as a team you've got to make up for that by being virtually twice as active on both ends (def & off.).

I made a post about this in detail recently, so will just reiterate this part: France trained for 3 months straight before the '15 WC purely on physio and it SURELY wasn't fitness that explained not being competitive vs Ireland and NZ. I mean if you watch the xv de France over 6 yrs, cardio's not been the problem, or through your scope France have not looked clearly worse later in games than in the early stages.
Basically: Fitness isn't the best, but it's certainly far from being a chief problem; it's not like watching Italy as they break down physically, and murtherfore (what ?) the French clubs have at least made the Euro final every year, if not won it. Fr clubs have often run English or Celtic clubs right off the park, each season.

he fitness that Jones requires is entirely different to the fitness regime of the England squad in 2015. The fitness of England in 2015 was abysmal. After their World Cup training camp in Denver, they didn’t look sharp, fit or conditioned. They looked slow, lumbering and incredibly lethargic.

Their Chief Instructor was an ex Royal Marine. And as fit as the Royal Marines are, their training is geared much along the lines that my military training is. Carrying heavy loads over long distances at high speed. This was also combined with heavy weights and traditional strength training to hone their obvious size advantage.

Whilst this is a way to get very fit, which I can attest to. It doesn’t get you rugby fit.

They seemed to train for endurance, rather than intensity. The hours spent doing traditional lifting and gaining mass backfired. It slowed them down. When the games went to a higher tempo in the World Cup, we saw how they struggled, how they unraveled.

This wasn’t just mental fragility, it was confusion about how they wanted to play. As they grew more and more exhausted their decision making went downhill, and they panicked.

The All Blacks know that no team is fitter than them, this adds to their mental fortitude. They know they can go toe to toe with teams, keep in the hunt for 60 minutes, and then outstrip them in the last 20. If the game is already won in the first 60, even better.

The way they do this is by taking the game to another gear. This, in turn, demands a higher intensity form of fitness. A very highly focused cardiovascular and anaerobic fitness emphasis. This is something that Jones has remedied quickly.
Eddie Jones

To state how badly England were conditioned post-2015 you only had to listen to Jones in an interview given in 2017.

When asked how he rated England after the World Cup when he first got hold of them, he stated; “Very poor mate, very poor, I couldn’t believe it, you expect teams like England to be better than Japan and that wasn’t the case. They’d go 20 minutes and have to stop they were so exhausted”. This was in reaction to his training regimen. A regimen that is focused on highly intense, short sharp sessions with 20-second water breaks.

In the early days, they used to be up at 6am every morning for a long run to boost their aerobic capacity. Then they would run their intensive and anaerobic training with their game run-throughs.

Torquemada 1420 wrote:

Dork Lard wrote:

Torquemada 1420 wrote:

Rugby2023 wrote:

Torquemada 1420 wrote:Many of you will correctly point out that this demise is thoroughly deserved but rugby really needs a healthy and competitive France. Trouble is if it isn't already too late, it will take a generation to make any real changes assuming anyone in charge has the vision or the will.

England have gone from roughly 60% winning ratio under Lancaster, to a 96% winning ratio under Jones.

Improvement can be that immediate and drastic if they can find someone to take it by the balls and immediately set about raising standards.

I don't think that it's an equivalence. The core/roots of English rugby were fine. Lancaster was just out of his depth. It's all in French but to give you and idea of how deep seated the problems and corruption are

http://www.lemonde.fr/rugby/article/201 ... 16937.html?

https://www.20minutes.fr/sport/2213631- ... aporte-ffr

Getting a decent intl coach would improve results (they could not get worse) but it would be papering over the chasms.

But Torque, supposing the following XV fully healthy is the best possible currently for France:
Baille-Guirado-Slimani
Vahaamahina-Iturria
Gourdon-Picamoles-Ollivon(soon Macalou)
Dupont-Lopez
Fofana-Penaud
Nakaitaci-Dulin-Thomas

With a strong bench, could you not take that team and make it well drilled for the first time ever in this current era, and make them seriously competitive ? The cardio had not been a problem during the past 6 years, we never saw France break down physically and it wasn't fatigue but cluelessness that lost them all those games, and if the fitness isn't elite either the guys if anything when they do get tired, get tired because they're playing aimless one-off Rugby where other teams are focused and channel their efforts through the collective.
The players are coming in, every month there's a brand new face, and the U20 are full of interesting young talent, and at club level the French are doing well every year.

I'm agreeing with you.
But it won't fix the structural problems:
- unsustainable economic model for nearly every club with the consequent boom and bust for everyone bar Clermont
- too many foreigner journeymen sapping resource, blocking the route for Fre players (esp young ones) and on short contracts to they aren't there long enough to embed or pass on anything useful
- too many games = injuries, tedious rugby etc
- focus on bosh rather than skills from an increasingly earlier age
- corruption throughout

Do I need to continue?

croyals wrote:

Nolanator wrote:

Zakar wrote:Top 14 clubs are notorious for having a Laissez-faire attitude to fitness. It's endemic. Some "anglo" players hire their own PTs to keep their fitness up, as the clubs do fudge all fitness work. Some will aparently have a spread of wine and cheese on the sideline during team runs though, do that's nice

When Grenoble were promoted to the Top14 a few years ago, Bernard Jackman was involved int he coaching staff and said that they initially had some great results simply by focusing on the S& aspect of the squad. They didn't have the same numbers of marque players as more established Top14 clubs, but their conditioning won them lots of games.

Regarding attitude problems, there also seems to be a weird approach to away games. Players/clubs just don't seem to give a shit if they lose away from home to teams way below them in the league.

Have to say I thought the away game attitude has changed a bit - even the fans travel a bit now.

Zakar wrote:

croyals wrote:France remind me of England circa 2005. It will take a national coach with a big personality and somebody in admin to take on the clubs and they'll be fine. As I keep saying, they're generally losing games by one or two scores, a properly fit team would be winning most of these.

Exactly. They are losing games because they can't handle 80 mins at intl pace. It's not because there are too many foreigners in their leagues. There are double the French players in the Top 14 than there are Aussies in the Soup, and that's not counting ProD2. Player depth isn't the issue.

eldanielfire wrote:

Dork Lard wrote:
With a strong bench, could you not take that team and make it well drilled for the first time ever in this current era, and make them seriously competitive ? The cardio had not been a problem during the past 6 years, we never saw France break down physically and it wasn't fatigue but cluelessness that lost them all those games, and if the fitness isn't elite either the guys if anything when they do get tired, get tired because they're playing aimless one-off Rugby where other teams are focused and channel their efforts through the collective.
The players are coming in, every month there's a brand new face, and the U20 are full of interesting young talent, and at club level the French are doing well every year.

That's an out of date perception. Fitness isn't just about not being huffing towards the end of the match. Constantly playing rugby will ensure that. A really good fitness level means during the intense, high workrate sections of the match your brain isn't just focused on getting to the next ruck or waiting for a break in play, but that you are still able to think with clarity, absorb information on the game in front of you, process it and make the right decisions. Basically cluelessness at test level can be largely down to fitness.

Being "well drilled" might resolve some of it, having a series of responses to certain situations helps it, but it doesn't resolve it and doesn't help with dealing with unique situations, broken play, being in a unusual position, adapting to tactics and changes the opposition make as well as surprises. That by far has been a huge part of Eddie Jones success with Japan and England as well as having them well drilled among other things. England today aren't playing the bets ever Rugby I've seen from them, they are however playing some of the cleverest and hardest to beat rugby. They seem to be able to out adapt opponents even when their attack is not firing.

eldanielfire wrote:
May i also say that fitness training itself can be weirdly draining in individuals. I believe Joe Schmitt when it comes to fitness and S&C actually has individual plans for each player because they respond differently to it. Just increasing fitness regimes doesn't always work to make you fitter for the game. Some can leave you fit in the wrong way, some are so intensive your body is just drained and others work for some and not others.

Zakar wrote:Having worked and flatted with people from all parts of the Mediterranean, I'm not suprised that work ethic/fitness is a concern.

Dork Lard wrote:

Zakar wrote:Having worked and flatted with people from all parts of the Mediterranean, I'm not suprised that work ethic/fitness is a concern.

Well, what are you trying to say Zakar ?

Dork Lard wrote:

Zakar wrote:Having worked and flatted with people from all parts of the Mediterranean, I'm not suprised that work ethic/fitness is a concern.

Well, what are you trying to say Zakar ?

Torquemada 1420 wrote:

Dork Lard wrote:

Zakar wrote:Having worked and flatted with people from all parts of the Mediterranean, I'm not suprised that work ethic/fitness is a concern.

Well, what are you trying to say Zakar ?

You are lazy ***ks

Zakar wrote:

Dork Lard wrote:

Zakar wrote:Having worked and flatted with people from all parts of the Mediterranean, I'm not suprised that work ethic/fitness is a concern.

Well, what are you trying to say Zakar ?

Just that, from my small sample size, I have found people from the Mediterranean to have a poor work ethic on average. Of course , I've not done extensive research on the subject, and am happy to note that my opinion very well could be based on people not representative of the region as a whole.

I will note, Apropros of nothing, that Mediterranean countries have had recent economic struggles, compared to their northern European neighbours.

Zakar wrote:

Dork Lard wrote:

Zakar wrote:Having worked and flatted with people from all parts of the Mediterranean, I'm not suprised that work ethic/fitness is a concern.

Well, what are you trying to say Zakar ?

Just that, from my small sample size, I have found people from the Mediterranean to have a poor work ethic on average. Of course , I've not done extensive research on the subject, and am happy to note that my opinion very well could be based on people not representative of the region as a whole.

I will note, Apropros of nothing, that Mediterranean countries have had recent economic struggles, compared to their northern European neighbours.

Dork Lard wrote:

Zakar wrote:

Dork Lard wrote:

Zakar wrote:Having worked and flatted with people from all parts of the Mediterranean, I'm not suprised that work ethic/fitness is a concern.

Well, what are you trying to say Zakar ?

Just that, from my small sample size, I have found people from the Mediterranean to have a poor work ethic on average. Of course , I've not done extensive research on the subject, and am happy to note that my opinion very well could be based on people not representative of the region as a whole.

I will note, Apropros of nothing, that Mediterranean countries have had recent economic struggles, compared to their northern European neighbours.

Well then in that case I would like to thank you for your fair well articulated response and the effort that was put into it.

Could I ask you since we're on the topic and it's closer to you if you'd make those same comments as an Oceanian about Fijians since they're also doing poorly economically compared to their neighbors the Australians ? Would you say the problem is "a poor work ethic" ?

Dork Lard wrote:
Could I ask you since we're on the topic and it's closer to you if you'd make those same comments as an Oceanian about Fijians since they're also doing poorly economically compared to their neighbors the Australians ? Would you say the problem is "a poor work ethic" ?

piquant wrote:

handyman wrote:

nardol wrote:Stop buying the worlds entire playing base and create your own.
No sympathy.

Quite correct.

There must be over 300 French players in the Top14, maybe 350 odd, and probably similar again in D2. How many are we expecting them to supply? Also it's not like they're importing slaves, most players heading to France are surely very happy with their contracts.

Torquemada 1420 wrote:

Dork Lard wrote:
Could I ask you since we're on the topic and it's closer to you if you'd make those same comments as an Oceanian about Fijians since they're also doing poorly economically compared to their neighbors the Australians ? Would you say the problem is "a poor work ethic" ?

Depends how you want to define work ethic but yeah, I'll go with that. Same for Afro-Carribeans. "Work ethic" is a loaded, Western economy/cultural term. Afro-Carribeans are more laid back culturally than, say Anglo-Saxons. So, inevitably, when you try and shoe-horn them into Anglo culture, some parts don't perfectly overlap.

FWIW, using terms like "lazy" are just, well, lazy. If you want to get (your definition of) the best out of them in your environment, you have to recognise the cultural differences and adapt. No point whining that you can't get the square peg into the round hole.

And that lead us to France and why France is the misfit in the rugby playing nations. Rugby is an Anglo game and the French are not very good at playing at being Anglos. Laporte came closest to achieving that with any consistency.

Zakar wrote:

Dork Lard wrote:

Zakar wrote:

Dork Lard wrote:

Zakar wrote:Having worked and flatted with people from all parts of the Mediterranean, I'm not suprised that work ethic/fitness is a concern.

Well, what are you trying to say Zakar ?

Just that, from my small sample size, I have found people from the Mediterranean to have a poor work ethic on average. Of course , I've not done extensive research on the subject, and am happy to note that my opinion very well could be based on people not representative of the region as a whole.

I will note, Apropros of nothing, that Mediterranean countries have had recent economic struggles, compared to their northern European neighbours.

Well then in that case I would like to thank you for your fair well articulated response and the effort that was put into it.

Could I ask you since we're on the topic and it's closer to you if you'd make those same comments as an Oceanian about Fijians since they're also doing poorly economically compared to their neighbors the Australians ? Would you say the problem is "a poor work ethic" ?

My post is clear that I've not linked the two statements.