Planet Rugby Forum

15. Leigh Halfpenny – Justified his selection with good covering, great tackling, and pin point kicking. Never really got to rate his attack as he never got the ball, but we can safely assume it would have been pants. 6/10

14. Liam Williams – Such were our possession and territory issues, that the wingers were never going to see much of the ball (until the end at least, by which time Williams was subbed). Hit is tackles well enough. 5/10

13. Scott Williams – Slower than a tortoise on Valium these days. When he almost got rounded by Sexton (who’s not particularly slow, but not lighting quick) you’ve got to really expect that his days are numbered. Did well to free his hands, but we were constantly being done in the channel outside of 13. We really miss Jiffy Jnr. 3/10

12. Hadleigh Parkes – Had a tough time, but didn’t have a lot to work with. When the game opened up he looked a lot better, and made some good tackles along the way. 5/10

11. Steff Evans – When the game finally came to life for the Welsh, he looked in his element. Wasn’t defensively exposed either, so a decent day at the office. 5/10

10. Dan Biggar – Unlike some, I’ve got no problem with Biggar having the odd whinge. They are usually over with in about 2 seconds, and it’s just a spill over of a extremely competitive nature. However, having a whinge half way through catching an up and under, thereby spilling the ball, which directly leads to a try early in the second half is unforgivable. Did some good up and under work, but that right there was the game. 3/10

9. Gareth Davies – Much better than the England game. Made the odd mistake though. 4/10

8. Ross Moriarty – Coughed up possession a couple of times, and was largely anonymous, especially given that he is tasked with making the big hits that stop the momentum that ultimately cost us the game. 4/10

7. Josh Navidi – Put in a shift, but the game highlights where he really is in the rankings of Wales 7. I’m sure (because it’s happened in the last few games against Ireland), that Warburton would have contained the Irish one out runners better. Navidi made his tackles, but not before giving up vital inches…and that’s all Gatland/Schmidt-ball really requires to make it work. 6/10

6. Aaron Shingler – Gets marked down for some poor tackling technique to let Healy in. Was generally industrious, but couldn’t really affect the gainline battle positively. 5/10

5. Alun Wyn Jones – Got through a mountain of work, and tried to instigate a number of ‘slow down’ tackles. The Irish however have been doing their homework, and sent numbers into the tackle early to make sure that it got to floor and recycled quickly. 6/10

4. Cory Hill – Another player who highlighted what we were missing. Jake Ball would have made a difference with the physicality at the gainline. Hill, like others, made his tackles, but not before given up ground first. 4/10

3. Samson Lee – Couldn’t get any traction in the scrum, but did at least make some tackles. Not his best, but not his worst performance either. 4/10

2. Ken Owens – Fairly anonymous and a poor performance by his standards. When you are putting in significantly less tackles than Samson Lee in a game of nothing but tackles, then you know you’ve had a bad day at the office. 3/10

1. Rob Evans – I’m still waiting for Rob Evans to take a game like this by the scruff of the neck and move to the next level. It doesn’t seem to come, and that’s probably because it never will. The lad is big, and has a great engine, and really should be putting himself about more. 0 metres for all his carries and another that was out tackled by Lee. Poor. 3/10


Team Average = 4.4/10


Tactics Talk

So, that was painful…and yet, we could have won. Didn’t deserve it mind, so all in all a fair result. We lost because for the first time since we’ve played a Schmidt Irish side, we were not able to control the gainline. Ireland didn’t actually win it my much (inches here and there mostly with the odd big bash), but they won it enough, and did so consistently to make it stick, and we just didn’t have it in us to turn it over.

The sad part about it was, and with reference to our new way of playing, Ireland were there for the taking as their defence was suspect. Every time we managed more than a few phases, we were able to get outside of their narrow defence. I don’t think it’s a giant leap to suggest that if we had managed 50/50 possession/territory, or even 60/40, we could have won the game.

But as it was, Ireland had done their homework, and even more so than usual, made keep-ball a priority. I noted it said (as it often is), that the defending team would tire, but I wasn’t actually surprised that we came on the stronger when you consider that Ireland had pods of 3-4 players off every carry, with the all players smashing into the rucks relentlessly. That shit is tiring.

So where do we go from here? Well, if you only have the ball for 30% of the time, with 25% of possession, then you are not going to win shit. Ultimately, we have to get more dogged (or pick players that are more dogged, but in reality, only those injured could have brought our pack up to scratch so its something of a moot point). But there were some good signs. Our resilience was impressive, and so was our attacking play when we finally managed to generate some go-forward ball. With all the injuries and chopping and changing, we all knew this tournament was going to be an uphill struggle, but from a longer term view of the World Cup , the likes of Navidi, Shingler, Hill, Parkes etc. will know the level they have to achieve to win the big games.

Just call it as it is Jeff. We are a small nation who can't compete at this level

Clive Simms wrote:Just call it as it is Jeff. We are a small nation who can't compete at this level

You nearly beat Ireland in Dublin. Wales have good players but Ireland are just in a great place right now with loads of good young players and a very good coach. Still not much in it.

Clive Simms wrote:Just call it as it is Jeff. We are a small nation who can't compete at this level

I think our top 15 is marginally better than their top 15 (and I'd suggest recent fixtures would paint that picture)..but if you taker a handful of players out of our team, and a handful out of theirs, they will always have the better team due to superior depth.

Such as it ever was.

I'm so disappointed I can't be bothered to check to make sure Jeff has the team average correct.

I’d mark Steff Evans up at least a point, and I though Navidi was great again. Plus, really impressed with North both this week and last week when he’s come on.

Biggar was embarrassing in his attitude.

bessantj wrote:I'm so disappointed I can't be bothered to check to make sure Jeff has the team average correct.

I've used deep fractal analysis combined with non-traditional Euclidean mathematics to come up with the average.

















I also used excel to double check.

Jeff the Bear wrote:

bessantj wrote:I'm so disappointed I can't be bothered to check to make sure Jeff has the team average correct.

I've used deep fractal analysis combined with non-traditional Euclidean mathematics to come up with the average.
I also used excel to double check.

That's the spirit. It's a sad fact you could use large parts of the way Wales played today as a lecture on how not to play rugby

Jeff the Bear wrote:

Clive Simms wrote:Just call it as it is Jeff. We are a small nation who can't compete at this level

I think our top 15 is marginally better than their top 15 (and I'd suggest recent fixtures would paint that picture)..but if you taker a handful of players out of our team, and a handful out of theirs, they will always have the better team due to superior depth.

Such as it ever was.

I disagree.

That was an Ireland team shorn of three of their best forwards and they owned the ball.

bessantj wrote:

Jeff the Bear wrote:

bessantj wrote:I'm so disappointed I can't be bothered to check to make sure Jeff has the team average correct.

I've used deep fractal analysis combined with non-traditional Euclidean mathematics to come up with the average.
I also used excel to double check.

That's the spirit. It's a sad fact you could use large parts of the way Wales played today as a lecture on how not to play rugby

Actually, in my opinion, it's just the one area that the entire game hinges on (and always does between Wales and Ireland). Ireland won the gainline battle. It meant simply that they could execute their gameplan, and we couldn't. It was a supreme effort by them to secure their rucks so thoroughly, and they'll know they were in a contest as they expended immense amounts of energy in that endeavour, even if on the face of it it looked like easy metres were made.

It is all about that last 5-10% physicality. They had it, and we didn't, and the game was lost.

But as I said above, we still had it in us to win the game (and Gatland pointed out in his interview that had the ball been popped out the back instead of floated over the top, Wales would have had a 3 on 1 going up that side of the field). Our attacking shape (when we finally put some phases together) was extremely good. Cut Ireland open continuously. If you flip it, and Ireland had had that sort of cutting edge to go along with all that ball, they would have scored 80+.

So it's not all doom and gloom. Given how small our player base is, we'll consistently come up against teams that will best us physically...but in having a genuine attacking 'out' we can still remain competitive, which is what essentially happened today.

It is ultimately the blueprint that will carry us forward, but it's not as if we are appending this attacking game to the solidity of Gatland-ball of old. That gameplan was squarely based on having a generation of physicality superior players that could go out and smash their way to victory. We clearly don't have those players any more, so we've had to adapt (and are adapting).

Finally, it's worth pointing out that we are only 8 games/6 months into our new gameplan, so it wasn't going to be all sweetness and light. Add in all our injuries and blooding of new players, and there's going to be games along the way where it goes a bit pear shaped

a close loss away to Ireland is surely at least a 6 / 7.

We had not beaten up Wales physically since 2014. That was good to see again. We bludgeoned them

iarmhiman wrote:We had not beaten up Wales physically since 2014. That was good to see again. We bludgeon them

Language a bit violent there mate. Couldn't you have said Ireland were comprehensibly superior in a particular area of the game?

earl the beaver wrote:

Jeff the Bear wrote:

Clive Simms wrote:Just call it as it is Jeff. We are a small nation who can't compete at this level

I think our top 15 is marginally better than their top 15 (and I'd suggest recent fixtures would paint that picture)..but if you taker a handful of players out of our team, and a handful out of theirs, they will always have the better team due to superior depth.

Such as it ever was.

I disagree.

That was an Ireland team shorn of three of their best forwards and they owned the ball.

Furlong
Henderson
SOB
Henshaw
Ringrose

Jeff the Bear wrote:

Clive Simms wrote:Just call it as it is Jeff. We are a small nation who can't compete at this level

I think our top 15 is marginally better than their top 15 (and I'd suggest recent fixtures would paint that picture)..but if you taker a handful of players out of our team, and a handful out of theirs, they will always have the better team due to superior depth.

Such as it ever was.

So delusional. We've won ten in a row, and have taken every team in world rugby at least once in the past 18 months. But yeah, Wales have better players

earl the beaver wrote:

Jeff the Bear wrote:

Clive Simms wrote:Just call it as it is Jeff. We are a small nation who can't compete at this level

I think our top 15 is marginally better than their top 15 (and I'd suggest recent fixtures would paint that picture)..but if you taker a handful of players out of our team, and a handful out of theirs, they will always have the better team due to superior depth.

Such as it ever was.

I disagree.

That was an Ireland team shorn of three of their best forwards and they owned the ball.

That was a Wales team shorn of 2 of their best forwards, and another extremely important cog in Ball. What's your point?

More importantly, and as alluded to, this game is always won in the backrow...and missing a fit and firing Warburton and Faletau was the biggest loss either team suffered with injuries.

Jeff the Bear wrote:

earl the beaver wrote:

Jeff the Bear wrote:

Clive Simms wrote:Just call it as it is Jeff. We are a small nation who can't compete at this level

I think our top 15 is marginally better than their top 15 (and I'd suggest recent fixtures would paint that picture)..but if you taker a handful of players out of our team, and a handful out of theirs, they will always have the better team due to superior depth.

Such as it ever was.

I disagree.

That was an Ireland team shorn of three of their best forwards and they owned the ball.

That was a Wales team shorn of 2 of their best forwards, and another extremely important cog in Ball. What's your point?

More importantly, and as alluded to, this game is always won in the backrow...and missing a fit and firing Warburton and Faletau was the biggest loss either team suffered with injuries.

I never noticed what a pussy you were before.

RWC2015 wrote:

Jeff the Bear wrote:

earl the beaver wrote:

Jeff the Bear wrote:

Clive Simms wrote:Just call it as it is Jeff. We are a small nation who can't compete at this level

I think our top 15 is marginally better than their top 15 (and I'd suggest recent fixtures would paint that picture)..but if you taker a handful of players out of our team, and a handful out of theirs, they will always have the better team due to superior depth.

Such as it ever was.

I disagree.

That was an Ireland team shorn of three of their best forwards and they owned the ball.

That was a Wales team shorn of 2 of their best forwards, and another extremely important cog in Ball. What's your point?

More importantly, and as alluded to, this game is always won in the backrow...and missing a fit and firing Warburton and Faletau was the biggest loss either team suffered with injuries.

I never noticed what a pussy you were before.

Leave him. He's hurting.

1 New Zealand 93.99
2 England 89.38 (-1.49)
3 Ireland 87.21 (+0.36)
4 Australia 85.49
5 (↑7) Scotland 84.43 (+1.49)
6 (↓5) South Africa 83.81
7 (↓6) Wales* 83.07 (-0.36)

* better players tho

Below South Africa, how humiliating.

c69 wrote:Look Ireland arethe better team with better players much better poaches and a better coach.
Much better strength in depth and resources and can manage player injuries better than Wales given their resources and more impressive player base. Your provinces are the key, big rowds big money big interest.
Wales well their shitty franchises are hated by everyone.
Only the Scarlets have a loyal fan base and then only when the moon gazers are winning.

It's very hard to beat us when Sexton and Murray start. We're average without them.

RWC2015 wrote:

Jeff the Bear wrote:

Clive Simms wrote:Just call it as it is Jeff. We are a small nation who can't compete at this level

I think our top 15 is marginally better than their top 15 (and I'd suggest recent fixtures would paint that picture)..but if you taker a handful of players out of our team, and a handful out of theirs, they will always have the better team due to superior depth.

Such as it ever was.

So delusional. We've won ten in a row, and have taken every team in world rugby at least once in the past 18 months. But yeah, Wales have better players

Sorry, poorly worded. Should have expanded on the second part of the sentence with 'between the two teams'. When we've been able to field our first 15 (or as near as dammit), we've only to Schmidt's Ireland once in the last 5 games (prior to today), and that was when we put out our B team against Ireland in the World Cup warmup game in Cardiff (subsequently, and further to the point, when we rolled into Ireland and put our first team out the next week, we won). That's just the facts of the recent history.

Ergo, when we've managed to put our full team, we have been marginally better. I don't think there's anything particularly outrageous in that statement.

c69 wrote:

YOYO wrote:

Jeff the Bear wrote:

Clive Simms wrote:Just call it as it is Jeff. We are a small nation who can't compete at this level

I think our top 15 is marginally better than their top 15 (and I'd suggest recent fixtures would paint that picture)..but if you taker a handful of players out of our team, and a handful out of theirs, they will always have the better team due to superior depth.

Such as it ever was.

Not a chance your top 15 is better than ours.
Someone care to list the players out?

I'll gor for just 3
The Lions best player on the NZ tour
The Lions Captain
The Lions no. 8

Liam Williams would start for Ireland and Priestland would too (for kicking). Owens too prob.

Good ratings Jeff

Sorry meant halfpenny

Moriarty was appalling.

1/10

YOYO wrote:

c69 wrote:

YOYO wrote:

Jeff the Bear wrote:

Clive Simms wrote:Just call it as it is Jeff. We are a small nation who can't compete at this level

I think our top 15 is marginally better than their top 15 (and I'd suggest recent fixtures would paint that picture)..but if you taker a handful of players out of our team, and a handful out of theirs, they will always have the better team due to superior depth.

Such as it ever was.

Not a chance your top 15 is better than ours.
Someone care to list the players out?

I'll gor for just 3
The Lions best player on the NZ tour
The Lions Captain
The Lions no. 8

List out the players.
With our young guns coming in and outplaying your elder lads, we can lay claim to having the better players. You even said it yourself in one of your above posts.

I reckon (and you may well say that of course I would, but that's the nature of the beast), that bringing back in Ball, Faletau, Warburton, Webb and Jiffy Jnr has a bigger impact on this Wales team than if you bring back the 5 mentioned for Ireland above would have forIreland. Christ, when did Henshaw last have a good game for Ireland? And Ringrose isn't even close to being the finished article yet.

Against that you are talking about the best OC on the planet, one of the best No.8s on the planet, one of the best opensides on the planet, Webb who's a World Class scrumhalf...and Ball, who doesn't meet that rarefied air, but is a solid international level lock, and who would have made a big difference today.

It's not even close to be fair!

New guy wrote:Moriarty was appalling.

1/10

No one was particularly good. Couldn't handle Ireland.

Our front 5 was totally out gunned as I predicted it would be. Moriarty was gash and Biggar should stfu and get on with it

bessantj wrote:

New guy wrote:Moriarty was appalling.

1/10

No one was particularly good. Couldn't handle Ireland.

The problem with Moriarty was that he's there to do a particular job (that is, to put in momentum stopping smashes), and he didn't.

Tbf, he's been flitting about the fringes of all the games he's played so far, it just had more of an effect here. Also worth remembering that he's only just back from 6 months or so of injury, so he can be forgiven.

Jeff the Bear wrote:

bessantj wrote:

New guy wrote:Moriarty was appalling.

1/10

No one was particularly good. Couldn't handle Ireland.

The problem with Moriarty was that he's there to do a particular job (that is, to put in momentum stopping smashes), and he didn't.

Tbf, he's been flitting about the fringes of all the games he's played so far, it just had more of an effect here. Also worth remembering that he's only just back from 6 months or so of injury, so he can be forgiven.

I thought North was a good impact player when he came on I wonder if he'll start v Italy.

RWC2015 wrote:

Jeff the Bear wrote:

earl the beaver wrote:

Jeff the Bear wrote:

Clive Simms wrote:Just call it as it is Jeff. We are a small nation who can't compete at this level

I think our top 15 is marginally better than their top 15 (and I'd suggest recent fixtures would paint that picture)..but if you taker a handful of players out of our team, and a handful out of theirs, they will always have the better team due to superior depth.

Such as it ever was.

I disagree.

That was an Ireland team shorn of three of their best forwards and they owned the ball.

That was a Wales team shorn of 2 of their best forwards, and another extremely important cog in Ball. What's your point?

More importantly, and as alluded to, this game is always won in the backrow...and missing a fit and firing Warburton and Faletau was the biggest loss either team suffered with injuries.

I never noticed what a pussy you were before.

No need for that, he's stated his opinion, nothing more.

YOYO wrote:Wales have some top class players Jeff but Ireland are no.3 in the world wrankings for a reason.
Stef Evans, George North and Liam Williams are class players. I would give you the edge over Ireland there. Williams would get in at FB on an Ireland team. One of the other 2 would be in with a shout. An in form North would get in.

I think Alun Wyn Jones and Ken Owens are the only players from your pack who would get a look in, in the Ireland pack.

Edit: An inform Falatou would probably get in at no.8. Wartburton if fit, stands a good chance but his body seems wreaked at this stage.

That’s about it for me.

But that's not the game to play. As Wenger so correctly stated "Everyone thinks they have the prettiest wife at home". I could do the same thing and come up with similar numbers (although I would say you'd be mental if you wouldn't have Jiffy Jnr over any of your centres).

You have to take personal opinion out of it, and just analyse the recent results. If you watch the 2016 and 2017 games (as I have done this week), you'll see that both games hinged on Wales' backrow ability to contain the Irish one out runners. Ireland didn't play any different than they usually do today, but instead of being met and kept on the gainline as has happened in the last two fixtures, they managed to get over the gainline.

That's why I said that Warburton and Faletau were the most important losses for either team, as they were the difference in 2016.

Jeff the Bear wrote:

YOYO wrote:Wales have some top class players Jeff but Ireland are no.3 in the world wrankings for a reason.
Stef Evans, George North and Liam Williams are class players. I would give you the edge over Ireland there. Williams would get in at FB on an Ireland team. One of the other 2 would be in with a shout. An in form North would get in.

I think Alun Wyn Jones and Ken Owens are the only players from your pack who would get a look in, in the Ireland pack.

Edit: An inform Falatou would probably get in at no.8. Wartburton if fit, stands a good chance but his body seems wreaked at this stage.

That’s about it for me.

But that's not the game to play. As Wenger so correctly stated "Everyone thinks they have the prettiest wife at home". I could do the same thing and come up with similar numbers (although I would say you'd be mental if you wouldn't have Jiffy Jnr over any of your centres).

You have to take personal opinion out of it, and just analyse the recent results. If you watch the 2016 and 2017 games (as I have done this week), you'll see that both games hinged on Wales' backrow ability to contain the Irish one out runners. Ireland didn't play any different than they usually do today, but instead of being met and kept on the gainline as has happened in the last two fixtures, they managed to get over the gainline.

That's why I said that Warburton and Faletau were the most important losses for either team, as they were the difference in 2016.

What a load of bollocks

fishooks15 wrote:

Jeff the Bear wrote:

YOYO wrote:Wales have some top class players Jeff but Ireland are no.3 in the world wrankings for a reason.
Stef Evans, George North and Liam Williams are class players. I would give you the edge over Ireland there. Williams would get in at FB on an Ireland team. One of the other 2 would be in with a shout. An in form North would get in.

I think Alun Wyn Jones and Ken Owens are the only players from your pack who would get a look in, in the Ireland pack.

Edit: An inform Falatou would probably get in at no.8. Wartburton if fit, stands a good chance but his body seems wreaked at this stage.

That’s about it for me.

But that's not the game to play. As Wenger so correctly stated "Everyone thinks they have the prettiest wife at home". I could do the same thing and come up with similar numbers (although I would say you'd be mental if you wouldn't have Jiffy Jnr over any of your centres).

You have to take personal opinion out of it, and just analyse the recent results. If you watch the 2016 and 2017 games (as I have done this week), you'll see that both games hinged on Wales' backrow ability to contain the Irish one out runners. Ireland didn't play any different than they usually do today, but instead of being met and kept on the gainline as has happened in the last two fixtures, they managed to get over the gainline.

That's why I said that Warburton and Faletau were the most important losses for either team, as they were the difference in 2016.

What a load of bollocks

I'm more than happy to listen to your in depth analysis of the 16 and 17 games, and how they differed/were similar to today's game.

YOYO wrote:

fishooks15 wrote:

Jeff the Bear wrote:

YOYO wrote:Wales have some top class players Jeff but Ireland are no.3 in the world wrankings for a reason.
Stef Evans, George North and Liam Williams are class players. I would give you the edge over Ireland there. Williams would get in at FB on an Ireland team. One of the other 2 would be in with a shout. An in form North would get in.

I think Alun Wyn Jones and Ken Owens are the only players from your pack who would get a look in, in the Ireland pack.

Edit: An inform Falatou would probably get in at no.8. Wartburton if fit, stands a good chance but his body seems wreaked at this stage.

That’s about it for me.

But that's not the game to play. As Wenger so correctly stated "Everyone thinks they have the prettiest wife at home". I could do the same thing and come up with similar numbers (although I would say you'd be mental if you wouldn't have Jiffy Jnr over any of your centres).

You have to take personal opinion out of it, and just analyse the recent results. If you watch the 2016 and 2017 games (as I have done this week), you'll see that both games hinged on Wales' backrow ability to contain the Irish one out runners. Ireland didn't play any different than they usually do today, but instead of being met and kept on the gainline as has happened in the last two fixtures, they managed to get over the gainline.

That's why I said that Warburton and Faletau were the most important losses for either team, as they were the difference in 2016.

What a load of bollocks

Well we’ll have to agree to disagree!
If Wales had a world ranking no.3, I’d be more open to your views!

But as has been noted many many times before, world ranking is a metric that quantifies depth. It doesn't really speak to who has the best team when everyone is available. Today was a perfect example of that....you got to keep your 3rd place because you have better depth.

Until next year Jeff.

Move on to the Italy and France games. Finish on a high.

iarmhiman wrote:Until next year Jeff.

Move on to the Italy and France games. Finish on a high.

Indeed. Nowhere else to go I suppose!

Schmidt's home record is excellent.

Two losses to NZ
One to Australia
one to Wales in a RWC warmup

4 losses in all since 2013.

Feel for Jeff here. He is on his own in this argument fighting aboot 10 Irish on a thread for Welsh posters to discuss the performance