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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:15 pm 
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charltom wrote:
nardol wrote:
4 injuries to a scottish squad and youre already fooked

Like Ireland from 1879 - 2017

And that was with 4 pro teams on paper for the majority of the pro era

Scotland had 17 front line players out injured when they played NZ in the autumn. Suddenly last year depth stopped being Scotland's problem - so much so that I'd be happy to see any of the 3rd XV in the team, as I suspect they may be during the summer.


I admire your optimism.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:34 pm 
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Steamin Beamin wrote:
Speaking of national qualification, I didn't realise Keet Wood's son is SQ, through his Mother, until the other day when Andy Nicol mentioned it on Twitter.
And Stuart Lancaster's son is representing Scotland at U18 this weekend against Wales.


48 mins in. A big lump of a lad. Helps win Munster schools junior cup for his school. He must be about 15 yo.

https://youtu.be/C9lVLxiVd7w


Last edited by YOYO on Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:35 pm 
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We are awesome, complete world beaters.

Scotland at a canter.













PS

I reserve the right to ask for a complete overhaul of Scottish rugby, much talk of a need for 3rd pro team and immediate sacking of all and sundry in the event of an unexpected loss. There is absolutely no middle ground to be had in terms of my mood with the national team.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:46 pm 
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Lorthern Nights wrote:
We are awesome, complete world beaters.

Scotland at a canter.













PS

I reserve the right to ask for a complete overhaul of Scottish rugby, much talk of a need for 3rd pro team and immediate sacking of all and sundry in the event of an unexpected loss. There is absolutely no middle ground to be had in terms of my mood with the national team.


Scottish Rugby; comfortable in Chaos ! ;)


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:59 pm 
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Diego wrote:
15. Kearney - Hogg
14. Earls - Kinghorn
13. Ringrose - Jones
12. Aki - Horne
11. Stockdale - Maitland
10. Sexton - Russell
9. Murray - Laidlaw

1. Healy - Reid
2. Best - McInally
3. Furlong - Berghan
4. Toner - Gilchrist
5. Ryan - Gray
6. O'Mahony - Barclay
7. Leavy - Watson
8. Stander - Wilson


Wouldn't disagree with much of that. Not sure what Aki has done to get the nod over Horne and would maybe (very tight) give McInally the nod over Best on very current form.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and Murray gets the nod over no one because he is a plum.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:01 pm 
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Are you calling Murray a plum based on on field stuff or something else?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:02 pm 
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Diego wrote:
Are you calling Murray a plum based on on field stuff or something else?

Had the audacity to complain when Glasgow kept trying to injure him.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:02 pm 
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Diego wrote:
Are you calling Murray a plum based on on field stuff or something else?


Just on the field. And my heart isn't really in it to be honest.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:04 pm 
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slick wrote:
Diego wrote:
Are you calling Murray a plum based on on field stuff or something else?


Just on the field. And my heart isn't really in it to be honest.

Bit odd then, he's one of our less whiny players and is never dirty. It'd be more understandable if you said Sexton, POM or Healy.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:06 pm 
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Diego wrote:
slick wrote:
Diego wrote:
Are you calling Murray a plum based on on field stuff or something else?


Just on the field. And my heart isn't really in it to be honest.

Bit odd then, he's one of our less whiny players and is never dirty. It'd be more understandable if you said Sexton, POM or Healy.


That probably says more about your team than him.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:10 pm 
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slick wrote:
Diego wrote:
slick wrote:
Diego wrote:
Are you calling Murray a plum based on on field stuff or something else?


Just on the field. And my heart isn't really in it to be honest.

Bit odd then, he's one of our less whiny players and is never dirty. It'd be more understandable if you said Sexton, POM or Healy.


That probably says more about your team than him.

I watch most Munster and all Ireland games and I've genuinely not noticed Murray being unusually mouthy for a 9. In fact I'd say he's quieter than most, certainly compared to Smith, Care, Webb or even Laidlaw.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:16 pm 
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Diego wrote:
slick wrote:
Diego wrote:
slick wrote:
Diego wrote:
Are you calling Murray a plum based on on field stuff or something else?


Just on the field. And my heart isn't really in it to be honest.

Bit odd then, he's one of our less whiny players and is never dirty. It'd be more understandable if you said Sexton, POM or Healy.


That probably says more about your team than him.

I watch most Munster and all Ireland games and I've genuinely not noticed Murray being unusually mouthy for a 9. In fact I'd say he's quieter than most, certainly compared to Smith, Care, Webb or even Laidlaw.

He had the audacity to beat them back to back for Munster without them maiming him in the 2nd game.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:16 pm 
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Edinburgh01 wrote:
YOYO wrote:
Edinburgh01 wrote:
YOYO wrote:
Is it not a concern then?
Back in the earlier days of the ‘90s, your teams were made up of developed Scots. The point made here that Scotland is catching up with professionalism is only partially true. Major recruitment from outside is a new factor compared to the ‘90s.


You really don't get it do you? The UK is single homogenous legal, economic and social entity. People move easily around within it for all sorts of social and professional reasons as it is in effect the same country.

As a result, Scotland has always had large numbers of non-Scots born players, and always will. The 1990s were no different. Rather than rely on my memory which tells me this is the case I checked. 5 of the first 10 players capped in the 1990s were not Scots born.


I understand the UK model and movement of people and so on.
Scottish rugby was properly Scottish in the ‘90s, there is no deneying that compared to the version today. But as was pointed out, success breeds success. If the current model helps in the long run to get a winning culture back and get the fans more interested in Scotish rugby, then its not a terrible thing. Ideally you want most of your teams filled with as many Scottish developed players as possible. I’d say at least 80%.. ideally 100%.


Repeating something does not make it true. I've not done a comparison other than the random sample above which you ignore, but even a cursory glance at the list of caps would tell you that there is very little difference between the 90s and now. FFS that was the decade that Budge Pountey got capped based on his grandmother being born in the Channel Islands.

Edit
Ideally I want the team filled with players who qualify for Scotland and actively want to play for Scotland, so please don't tell what I want.


This does genuinely annoy me. Yes, we'd all prefer to field a team entirely composed of players who grew up and learned all their rugby in Scotland, but virtually nobody fields only home-grown players (Argentina the notable exception).

Let's look at the team which started v England:

1. Reid - Scottish born & raised, brought through as a pro player in Scotland.
2. McInally - Scottish born & raised, brought through as a pro player in Scotland.
3. Berhgan - NZ born & raised, grandparent qualified.
4. Gilchrist - Scottish born & raised, brought through as a pro player in Scotland.
5. Gray - Scottish born & raised, brought through as a pro player in Scotland.
6. Barclay - Born in HK, Scottish raised, brought through as a pro player in Scotland.
7. Watson - England born & raised, grandparent qualified, brought through as a pro player in Scotland.
8. Wilson - England born & raised, grandparent qualified, brought through as pro player in England.
9. Laidlaw - Scottish born & raised, brought through as a pro player in Scotland.
10. Russell - Scottish born & raised, brought through as a pro player in Scotland.
11. Sean Maitland - NZ born & raised, grandparent qualified.
12. Pete Horne - Scottish born & raised, brought through as a pro player in Scotland.
13. Huw Jones - Scottish born, England raised, brought through as a pro player in South Africa.
14. Tommy Seymour - USA born, USA & Ireland raised, parent qualified, brought through as a pro player in Ireland.
15. Stuart Hogg - Scottish born & raised, brought through as a pro player in Scotland.

I make that 8 players who are Scottish by any measure you care to use. Barclay is Scottish in every respect save birthplace. Watson qualifies by grandparents, but is well known to have grown up being taken to Murrayfield to support Scotland. So that's 10/15 who were never realistically going to represent anyone else.

Of the remaining five, Jones is Scots born (unarguable) and although Ireland would have a claim on Seymour, his mother is Scottish. The only 'dodgy' players are Wilson, Berghan and Maitland. Wilson has now been in Glasgow for 8 years, and Berghan is third choice (though to be fair the first choice is Nel). Pretty much every Tier 1 side has at least 2-3 players with questionable ties to the country. The Ireland side for this weekend has two who qualified on residency.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:11 pm 
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Diego wrote:
slick wrote:
Diego wrote:
Are you calling Murray a plum based on on field stuff or something else?


Just on the field. And my heart isn't really in it to be honest.

Bit odd then, he's one of our less whiny players and is never dirty. It'd be more understandable if you said Sexton, POM or Healy.



Agree - Murray is sound, bizarrely although he wrote Murray I read it as Sexton :blush:


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:40 pm 
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Touchy.

We've got it now, don't slag the scrummie.

Stockdale > Maitland :lol: :lol:

Someone's made an early start on the poitín


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:51 pm 
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Stockdale has gone an insane record internationally tbf. Would probably start over Maitland?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:13 pm 
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YOYO wrote:

Is it not a concern then?
Back in the earlier days of the ‘90s, your teams were made up of developed Scots. The point made here that Scotland is catching up with professionalism is only partially true. Major recruitment from outside is a new factor compared to the ‘90s.

Not for most I don't think. Me though, I'm xenophobic as fvck, I even hate the plum in the next town over.

I'm also hypocritical as fvck and would probably make most of the selections Toony is.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:32 pm 
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Can only see a Ireland win, Scotland struggle away from home and as Wales found to their cost, a home friendly ref.
Ireland are playing 10 man rugby, think they'd learn from the last WC, but there you go.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:39 pm 
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hogg is the only scottish player i'd pick over his Irish counterpart


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:42 pm 
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harry 22 wrote:
hogg is the only scottish player i'd pick over his Irish counterpart


No one wants you here, Warren. Bog off back to Cardiff.


Last edited by Doc Rob on Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:21 pm 
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.
Quote:

This does genuinely annoy me. Yes, we'd all prefer to field a team entirely composed of players who grew up and learned all their rugby in Scotland, but virtually nobody fields only home-grown players (Argentina the notable exception).

Let's look at the team which started v England:

1. Reid - Scottish born & raised, brought through as a pro player in Scotland.
2. McInally - Scottish born & raised, brought through as a pro player in Scotland.
3. Berhgan - NZ born & raised, grandparent qualified.
4. Gilchrist - Scottish born & raised, brought through as a pro player in Scotland.
5. Gray - Scottish born & raised, brought through as a pro player in Scotland.
6. Barclay - Born in HK, Scottish raised, brought through as a pro player in Scotland.
7. Watson - England born & raised, grandparent qualified, brought through as a pro player in Scotland.
8. Wilson - England born & raised, grandparent qualified, brought through as pro player in England.
9. Laidlaw - Scottish born & raised, brought through as a pro player in Scotland.
10. Russell - Scottish born & raised, brought through as a pro player in Scotland.
11. Sean Maitland - NZ born & raised, grandparent qualified.
12. Pete Horne - Scottish born & raised, brought through as a pro player in Scotland.
13. Huw Jones - Scottish born, England raised, brought through as a pro player in South Africa.
14. Tommy Seymour - USA born, USA & Ireland raised, parent qualified, brought through as a pro player in Ireland.
15. Stuart Hogg - Scottish born & raised, brought through as a pro player in Scotland.

I make that 8 players who are Scottish by any measure you care to use. Barclay is Scottish in every respect save birthplace. Watson qualifies by grandparents, but is well known to have grown up being taken to Murrayfield to support Scotland. So that's 10/15 who were never realistically going to represent anyone else.

Of the remaining five, Jones is Scots born (unarguable) and although Ireland would have a claim on Seymour, his mother is Scottish. The only 'dodgy' players are Wilson, Berghan and Maitland. Wilson has now been in Glasgow for 8 years, and Berghan is third choice (though to be fair the first choice is Nel). Pretty much every Tier 1 side has at least 2-3 players with questionable ties to the country. The Ireland side for this weekend has two who qualified on residency.


Good post. Very informative.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:27 pm 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
.
Quote:

This does genuinely annoy me. Yes, we'd all prefer to field a team entirely composed of players who grew up and learned all their rugby in Scotland, but virtually nobody fields only home-grown players (Argentina the notable exception).

Let's look at the team which started v England:

1. Reid - Scottish born & raised, brought through as a pro player in Scotland.
2. McInally - Scottish born & raised, brought through as a pro player in Scotland.
3. Berhgan - NZ born & raised, grandparent qualified.
4. Gilchrist - Scottish born & raised, brought through as a pro player in Scotland.
5. Gray - Scottish born & raised, brought through as a pro player in Scotland.
6. Barclay - Born in HK, Scottish raised, brought through as a pro player in Scotland.
7. Watson - England born & raised, grandparent qualified, brought through as a pro player in Scotland.
8. Wilson - England born & raised, grandparent qualified, brought through as pro player in England.
9. Laidlaw - Scottish born & raised, brought through as a pro player in Scotland.
10. Russell - Scottish born & raised, brought through as a pro player in Scotland.
11. Sean Maitland - NZ born & raised, grandparent qualified.
12. Pete Horne - Scottish born & raised, brought through as a pro player in Scotland.
13. Huw Jones - Scottish born, England raised, brought through as a pro player in South Africa.
14. Tommy Seymour - USA born, USA & Ireland raised, parent qualified, brought through as a pro player in Ireland.
15. Stuart Hogg - Scottish born & raised, brought through as a pro player in Scotland.

I make that 8 players who are Scottish by any measure you care to use. Barclay is Scottish in every respect save birthplace. Watson qualifies by grandparents, but is well known to have grown up being taken to Murrayfield to support Scotland. So that's 10/15 who were never realistically going to represent anyone else.

Of the remaining five, Jones is Scots born (unarguable) and although Ireland would have a claim on Seymour, his mother is Scottish. The only 'dodgy' players are Wilson, Berghan and Maitland. Wilson has now been in Glasgow for 8 years, and Berghan is third choice (though to be fair the first choice is Nel). Pretty much every Tier 1 side has at least 2-3 players with questionable ties to the country. The Ireland side for this weekend has two who qualified on residency.


Good post. Very informative.


Er, yeah. I may have gone full nerd there.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:34 pm 
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Doc Rob wrote:
harry 22 wrote:
hogg is the only scottish player i'd pick over his Irish counterpart


No one wants you here, Warren. Bog off back to Cardiff.


Doc, can I borrow that to respond to Clive?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:42 pm 
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Lenny wrote:
Doc Rob wrote:
harry 22 wrote:
hogg is the only scottish player i'd pick over his Irish counterpart


No one wants you here, Warren. Bog off back to Cardiff.


Doc, can I borrow that to respond to Clive?


But of course. :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:59 pm 
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Doc Rob wrote:
harry 22 wrote:
hogg is the only scottish player i'd pick over his Irish counterpart


No one wants you here, Warren. Bog off back to Cardiff.


Epic gag!!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:26 pm 
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Ireland are relentlessly efficient, consistent and, frankly, good at winning games of rugby. This is Gregor’s toughest test in my mind. More difficult than NZ and England at home. However, if Scotland can maintain the intensity, accuracy and skill levels of the first 40 v England, and ramp it up (i.e. be better) in the second 40, then there’s a game. Big ask. Probably too big.

Ireland are quality. I see a few commentators wrote off the performance against Italy. Some of the rugby in the first 60 was just faultless IMO. Italy are off the pace, but at home and in the first part of games, they can be very difficult to break down. Ireland did it with ridiculous ease.

I wrote Scotland off against England; the away record suggests the same this weekend. But I think they will turn up. It might not be enough to win, but a good performance and a close game would be a positive step forward. A repeat of Cardiff/Twickers, and its BAU.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:45 am 
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Bear wrote:
Ireland are relentlessly efficient, consistent and, frankly, good at winning games of rugby. This is Gregor’s toughest test in my mind. More difficult than NZ and England at home. However, if Scotland can maintain the intensity, accuracy and skill levels of the first 40 v England, and ramp it up (i.e. be better) in the second 40, then there’s a game. Big ask. Probably too big.

Ireland are quality. I see a few commentators wrote off the performance against Italy. Some of the rugby in the first 60 was just faultless IMO. Italy are off the pace, but at home and in the first part of games, they can be very difficult to break down. Ireland did it with ridiculous ease.

I wrote Scotland off against England; the away record suggests the same this weekend. But I think they will turn up. It might not be enough to win, but a good performance and a close game would be a positive step forward. A repeat of Cardiff/Twickers, and its BAU.


If we want to do anything of note in the 6N, we have to start showing up for away games. A win is a big ask, but we have to be up for it and ask questions of the Irish. I can take a loss, but not if we look gutless.

I was at the last game in Dublin and we really gave them a game then. Hogg scored a wonder try, and IIRC we were well in the game until Hogg and Seymour managed to collide with each other and let Earls in to score.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:11 pm 
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I think Ireland would have a similar view. If they want to do anything in the 6 Nations and the bigger scheme of things they absolutely have to beat Scotland at home tomorrow.

I think the Wales game will give Ireland huge confidence. Its fair to say Wales physicality has caused Ireland problems in recent times. An Ireland team shorn of several first choice players did incredibly well against the Welsh pack. With England in mind I think Ireland are really going to ramp up the forward play.

Brace yourself for boring Ireland type posts tomorrow from the Taffs, Ruperts and surly Scots who only see what they want to see, but as one of my best friends from Omagh said, "Its not ice dancing".


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:19 pm 
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Lorthern Nights wrote:
We are awesome, complete world beaters.

Scotland at a canter.













PS

I reserve the right to ask for a complete overhaul of Scottish rugby, much talk of a need for 3rd pro team and immediate sacking of all and sundry in the event of an unexpected loss. There is absolutely no middle ground to be had in terms of my mood with the national team.


Haha same here. After the pish served up in Cardiff I vowed I'd never pay to see another Toony coached Scotland team. Took a while Vs France to change my mind but one Calcutta Cup later and he's the new messiah again (sort of, still think we'll get well beat tomorrow).


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:57 pm 
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Steamin Beamin wrote:
Lorthern Nights wrote:
We are awesome, complete world beaters.

Scotland at a canter.
PS

I reserve the right to ask for a complete overhaul of Scottish rugby, much talk of a need for 3rd pro team and immediate sacking of all and sundry in the event of an unexpected loss. There is absolutely no middle ground to be had in terms of my mood with the national team.


Haha same here. After the pish served up in Cardiff I vowed I'd never pay to see another Toony coached Scotland team. Took a while Vs France to change my mind but one Calcutta Cup later and he's the new messiah again (sort of, still think we'll get well beat tomorrow).


I think a lot comes down to whether Toonie's tactics pay off or not. Against Wales, they didn't. Against France and England, he found their achilles heel and got the players to execute the plan.

Scotland aren't going to travel to Dublin and bully Ireland. They aren't going to have a big share of possession, unless Ireland have a mare. They aren't going to have a field day at the breakdown, with Lil Wayne in charge and Ireland's own strength there. Ireland have similar issues with the speed and narrowness of our rush defence as England, but I don't see Toonie risking trying the same gambit twice, esp with Ringer, Stockdale and Earls hovering to pick off any big passes.

So, what's Gregor going to try? I think he's going after Aki and Ringrose, with Kearney behind as the last line. I think he's going to put Jones into gaps either side of Ringer and see what he gets out of it. I could see dinks over the midfield, I can see Hogg being worked over phases into one-on-ones with Ringer. I can also see Scotland picking and going mixed with offloads, to stay out of rucks and pull Ireland narrow or unbalanced. Then hit us wide.

I don't see Russell trying the same cutout passing shit on a second straight opponent. That threat and our own defensive glitches has probably had us spend huge time on sorting our systems. Not saying we've closed the door, but we will be lying in wait for that tactic to be used again.

My concern on the defensive side is a leadership one. Outside of Sexton in the backline, none of Aki, Ringrose, Earls or Stockdale strike me as vocal alpha types who will organise and communicate. We really miss Henshaw, Payne and Farrell in that respect. Kearney is vocal, but he isn't always on hand to move guys into place. I am a massive Ringer fan and defensively I think he's been very sound in general, but he leads with example and work ethic rather than being a voice for the team. In the second half, if we have Carbery and Larmour in, I'd be even more nervous about that defensive communication. They're all so young and not used to being the leaders.

On the attack side, I think we'll be even better than before. Wales couldn't win the collisions or set piece and Scotland won't either. We'll score enough points to win it if our D can keep its shape.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:00 pm 
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Scotland's problem against Wales wasn't the gameplan. It was nearly all down to handling errors.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:07 pm 
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I think we are going to hockey them tbh, 15-20 points. mocker gods come at me


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:18 pm 
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goose81 wrote:
I think we are going to hockey them tbh, 15-20 points. mocker gods come at me


Just as I said before the England game: as much of this as possible, if you please. We don't handle the favourites tag at all well and tend to perform best when given no chance whatsoever.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:24 pm 
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I said before the start of the 6N it was the Scotland game that worried me most, and I haven't changed my mind on that. Maybe I'm older than some here as I still remember the '90's and there's something about this Scotland team and set up that reminds me of that same attitude.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:40 pm 
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Looks to rain in the AM and then cloudy for the afternoon.

Ireland by 10 in what will be an absolute cracker. May hide behind the couch.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:57 pm 
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Ireland by 14.

Slippery conditions will kill scotlands chances.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:09 pm 
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nardol wrote:
Ireland by 14.

Slippery conditions will kill scotlands chances.


Yup, will be very different conditions to what they are used to on the Cote d'Scotstoun.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:11 pm 
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Okay alright merry christmas to everyone and a happy weekend etc aaaaaand Ireland by 13 for me (just to trigger the superstitious).


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:12 pm 
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Posts: 2814
CM11 wrote:
Scotland's problem against Wales wasn't the gameplan. It was nearly all down to handling errors.


They didn't come off too well in the collisions either.

In fact, when they get sucked into multi-phase play they look a bit ordinary on and off the ball. They're very dangerous off first or second phase, which is where most of their tries have come from.

It's going to be really interesting to see whether they can get joy against Ireland's defence the way they did against England. Slightly worried about that, but we've been forewarned so there's no excuses.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:17 pm 
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I'd be very disappointed if we don't get at least a championship win from here.


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