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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:20 am 
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Bowens wrote:
message #2527204 wrote:
Bowens wrote:
You're good man. But Syria is on all our radars now, and with smart phones and sociaml media everyone has access to info they didn't necessarily during Iraq 1 & 2. We have seen this movie before.

Is f**king frkightening that people prefer to believe hostile propaganda on FB than their own governemnt. And that they think that fabricated, bullshitting memes somehow give them the 'bigger picture' rather than obfuscating the truth as they are designed to do


FB memes? This is a pretty cliched argument. The people sharing those seem to mostly be Baby Boomers like Taranaki Snapper. I use Twitter to follow some independent media (who probably have better records when fact-checked than some mainstream sources). That's about it. Imagine being a big enough doofus to still trust people like Brian Williams on Syria after all that has transpired in recent years.

They're backed into a corner with all their bullshit, Bones. FFS, bimbo still thinks the Marxists want to take over the world.
:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:47 am 
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Bowens wrote:
message #2527204 wrote:
Bowens wrote:
You're good man. But Syria is on all our radars now, and with smart phones and sociaml media everyone has access to info they didn't necessarily during Iraq 1 & 2. We have seen this movie before.

Is f**king frkightening that people prefer to believe hostile propaganda on FB than their own governemnt. And that they think that fabricated, bullshitting memes somehow give them the 'bigger picture' rather than obfuscating the truth as they are designed to do


FB memes? This is a pretty cliched argument. The people sharing those seem to mostly be Baby Boomers like Taranaki Snapper. I use Twitter to follow some independent media (who probably have better records when fact-checked than some mainstream sources). That's about it. Imagine being a big enough doofus to still trust people like Brian Williams on Syria after all that has transpired in recent years.


Like who?


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:00 am 
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Russia claims 70% of missiles in attack were shot down. By old, defunct air defense systems ...
The laboratories were empty, long evacuated after Israeli airstrikes, years ago ... nothing going on there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEOoEwIrg0g

Can anybody fact check ?


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:03 am 
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Wilson's Toffee wrote:
Russia claims 70% of missiles in attack were shot down. By old, defunct air defense systems ...
The laboratories were empty, long evacuated after Israeli airstrikes, years ago ... nothing going on there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEOoEwIrg0g

Can anybody fact check ?



You're too stupid to engage with.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:19 am 
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bimboman wrote:
Wilson's Toffee wrote:
Russia claims 70% of missiles in attack were shot down. By old, defunct air defense systems ...
The laboratories were empty, long evacuated after Israeli airstrikes, years ago ... nothing going on there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEOoEwIrg0g

Can anybody fact check ?



You're too stupid to engage with.



You mean you are too stupid to engage with me.
But I will not hold it against you ... such limitations come from God who, in His all wisdom, decided beforehand which will inherit this earth, and who will stay dumb.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:20 am 
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Wilson's Toffee wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Wilson's Toffee wrote:
Russia claims 70% of missiles in attack were shot down. By old, defunct air defense systems ...
The laboratories were empty, long evacuated after Israeli airstrikes, years ago ... nothing going on there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEOoEwIrg0g

Can anybody fact check ?



You're too stupid to engage with.



You mean you are too stupid to engage with me.
But I will not hold it against you ... such limitations come from God who, in His all wisdom, decided beforehand which will inherit this earth, and who will stay dumb.



:nod: , yes that's what I meant.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:21 am 
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:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:25 am 
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Wilson's Toffee wrote:
Russia claims 70% of missiles in attack were shot down. By old, defunct air defense systems ...
The laboratories were empty, long evacuated after Israeli airstrikes, years ago ... nothing going on there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEOoEwIrg0g

Can anybody fact check ?


Syria and Russia ought to agree first on how many missiles they claim to have shot down. Syria reckon they shot down 13, Russia claim 71.

Meanwhile the Pentagon reckon that Syria fired at most 40 SAMs, most of them after the last Allied missile had found it's target


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:28 am 
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Saint wrote:
Wilson's Toffee wrote:
Russia claims 70% of missiles in attack were shot down. By old, defunct air defense systems ...
The laboratories were empty, long evacuated after Israeli airstrikes, years ago ... nothing going on there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEOoEwIrg0g

Can anybody fact check ?


Syria and Russia ought to agree first on how many missiles they claim to have shot down. Syria reckon they shot down 13, Russia claim 71.

Meanwhile the Pentagon reckon that Syria fired at most 40 SAMs, most of them after the last Allied missile had found it's target


And a quick check of satellite photos shows that the 3 targets got fairly comprehensively bitchslapped.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:31 am 
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Turbogoat wrote:
Saint wrote:
Wilson's Toffee wrote:
Russia claims 70% of missiles in attack were shot down. By old, defunct air defense systems ...
The laboratories were empty, long evacuated after Israeli airstrikes, years ago ... nothing going on there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEOoEwIrg0g

Can anybody fact check ?


Syria and Russia ought to agree first on how many missiles they claim to have shot down. Syria reckon they shot down 13, Russia claim 71.

Meanwhile the Pentagon reckon that Syria fired at most 40 SAMs, most of them after the last Allied missile had found it's target


And a quick check of satellite photos shows that the 3 OTHER, EMPTY targets got fairly comprehensively bitchslapped. UNCLEAR WHETHER FROM PREVIOUS ISRAELI STRIKES (AS INDICATEd) OR FROM THIS OPERATION



Fixed.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:35 am 
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Why ask the question then if you've already bought in heavily to one set of claims? :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:38 am 
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Turbogoat wrote:
Why ask the question then if you've already bought in heavily to one set of claims? :lol:



You have an amazing level of patience.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:44 am 
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La soule wrote:
Turbogoat wrote:
Why ask the question then if you've already bought in heavily to one set of claims? :lol:



You have an amazing level of patience.


You, on the other hand, display an amazing lack of brains.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:45 am 
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Turbogoat wrote:
Why ask the question then if you've already bought in heavily to one set of claims? :lol:



I said fact check - I did not say "play guess-guess"


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:48 am 
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Wilson's Toffee wrote:
La soule wrote:
Turbogoat wrote:
Why ask the question then if you've already bought in heavily to one set of claims? :lol:



You have an amazing level of patience.


You, on the other hand, display an amazing lack of brains.


Weren't you decrying ad hominems less than 24 hours ago?


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:50 am 
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Zakar wrote:
Wilson's Toffee wrote:
La soule wrote:
Turbogoat wrote:
Why ask the question then if you've already bought in heavily to one set of claims? :lol:



You have an amazing level of patience.


You, on the other hand, display an amazing lack of brains.


Weren't you decrying ad hominems less than 24 hours ago?

He wouldn't bloody know


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:51 am 
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Zakar wrote:
Wilson's Toffee wrote:
La soule wrote:
Turbogoat wrote:
Why ask the question then if you've already bought in heavily to one set of claims? :lol:



You have an amazing level of patience.


You, on the other hand, display an amazing lack of brains.


Weren't you decrying ad hominems less than 24 hours ago?



That was during a debate. This is not a debate.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:52 am 
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Wilson's Toffee wrote:
Zakar wrote:
Wilson's Toffee wrote:
La soule wrote:
Turbogoat wrote:
Why ask the question then if you've already bought in heavily to one set of claims? :lol:



You have an amazing level of patience.


You, on the other hand, display an amazing lack of brains.


Weren't you decrying ad hominems less than 24 hours ago?



That was during a debate. This is not a debate.


I did not have you down the type of guy who would be consistent about anything.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:20 am 
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Anyway - Vlad cant protect his client regime in the ME and was too scared to even turn on his vaunted missile defenses to protect Syria whilst his Russian trained and equipped allies ended up launching dozens of missiles pointlessly after the strike had finished.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:33 am 
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tc27 wrote:
Anyway - Vlad cant protect his client regime in the ME and was too scared to even turn on his vaunted missile defenses to protect Syria whilst his Russian trained and equipped allies ended up launching dozens of missiles pointlessly after the strike had finished.




That's the good bit about these strikes, we get some "testing" done. The cruise missle seems fairly resolute technology now doesn't it.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:41 am 
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bimboman wrote:
tc27 wrote:
Anyway - Vlad cant protect his client regime in the ME and was too scared to even turn on his vaunted missile defenses to protect Syria whilst his Russian trained and equipped allies ended up launching dozens of missiles pointlessly after the strike had finished.




That's the good bit about these strikes, we get some "testing" done. The cruise missle seems fairly resolute technology now doesn't it.


https://www.resolutets.com/


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:41 am 
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Turbogoat wrote:
Saint wrote:
Wilson's Toffee wrote:
Russia claims 70% of missiles in attack were shot down. By old, defunct air defense systems ...
The laboratories were empty, long evacuated after Israeli airstrikes, years ago ... nothing going on there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEOoEwIrg0g

Can anybody fact check ?


Syria and Russia ought to agree first on how many missiles they claim to have shot down. Syria reckon they shot down 13, Russia claim 71.

Meanwhile the Pentagon reckon that Syria fired at most 40 SAMs, most of them after the last Allied missile had found it's target


And a quick check of satellite photos shows that the 3 targets got fairly comprehensively bitchslapped.


Plot twist: satellites are a conspiracy, man has never been to space and all you're looking at are photoshopped pictures taken by helicopters hovering above cardboard fake installations in Nevada. :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:53 am 
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Interesting article from Robert Fisk, a jouno who's actually on the ground in Syria; http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syr ... 07726.html
No doubt in the pay of Assad or a shill for Putin though... ;)
OAN report from Douma; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSXwG-901yU


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:40 am 
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Red Chopper wrote:
Interesting article from Robert Fisk, a jouno who's actually on the ground in Syria; http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syr ... 07726.html
No doubt in the pay of Assad or a shill for Putin though... ;)
OAN report from Douma; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSXwG-901yU


The literal 'fog of war.'
That's the problem, and one we saw a helluva lot in Mosul. Many suspected attacks, or even people in the vicinity of actual chemical attacks weren't actually affected by the agent at all, probably 2/3rds of casualties I treated for suspected chemical exposure weren't actually affected by the stuff. It doesn't mean the attacks weren't real - they f**king were - it just indicates that terrified people (esp civilians) on the ground aren't the best people available to authenticate the type of weapon being used or diagnose their own symptoms. They see some funny cloud, they smell something funny, they aren't going to stick around, take a taste test, calmly check their pulse, or start measuring their own pupils. They're going to call it gas and not risk themselves for the sake of accuracy in war reporting.
They may be overcome with hypoxia sheltering from the chemicals... is that any more morally sound than being killed by the chemical itself? Only if you think someone eaten by Lions while hiding in their cage from an escaped Gorilla is any better off.

When possible, the OPCW and other organizations have been able to take samples from attacks and been able to confirm the use of chemical agents across Syria, that's not in doubt. Not every time some panicky bitch starts shrieking "SARIN!" is going to be an attack of course, but hell, we can't really start hating on people being bombarded with chemical weapons by their own government just because they don't get it right every damn time.
Chemical weapons are a psychological weapon just as much as they are a Weapon of Mass Destruction. In fact, they're often not effectively deployed, and are far more use keeping a population cowed and terrified, they don't need to kill everyone, they just have to show that they can get to them in their pathetic little bomb shelters they're huddling in.
Much easier to wipe out everyone there to get to the bad guys with these weapons than go house to house, especially when you don't care about civilian casualties.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:46 am 
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Quote:
No doubt in the pay of Assad or a shill for Putin though... ;)


Yep...pretty much:

https://twitter.com/_RichardHall/status ... 3425107970


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:54 pm 
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Have a read of this: https://www.conflictarm.com/download-fi ... le_id=2574

It is a best attempt at identifying the sources of IS weaponry, and the US is right up there as a source.

It's abundantly clear that the US has had their finger in this war reasonably deeply, and against the Syrian government, for some time, and that they're happy to provide weapons to supposed enemies. I see no reason to trust their statements on Syria any more than those of the Russians - and in this case, logic, and a fair bit of evidence suggests that the Syrian government did not gas civilians. Meanwhile, the UK is selling cluster bombs to the Saudis to use on Yemen (and Yemeni civilians). The Russians are certainly on the wrong side of some things in this multi-theatre proxy war, but they're not the ones on the wrong side in the Middle East. We are.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:04 pm 
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tc27 wrote:
Anyway - Vlad cant protect his client regime in the ME and was too scared to even turn on his vaunted missile defenses to protect Syria whilst his Russian trained and equipped allies ended up launching dozens of missiles pointlessly after the strike had finished.


Managed to finally get rid of that pesky stash of Egyptian cotton


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:11 pm 
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pontifex wrote:
Have a read of this: https://www.conflictarm.com/download-fi ... le_id=2574

It is a best attempt at identifying the sources of IS weaponry, and the US is right up there as a source.

It's abundantly clear that the US has had their finger in this war reasonably deeply, and against the Syrian government, for some time, and that they're happy to provide weapons to supposed enemies. I see no reason to trust their statements on Syria any more than those of the Russians - and in this case, logic, and a fair bit of evidence suggests that the Syrian government did not gas civilians. Meanwhile, the UK is selling cluster bombs to the Saudis to use on Yemen (and Yemeni civilians). The Russians are certainly on the wrong side of some things in this multi-theatre proxy war, but they're not the ones on the wrong side in the Middle East. We are.


The Iraqi army completely collapsed in Mosul and Northern Iraq, leaving behind tonnes of heavy weapons and small arms. It's not surprise the US is up there considering they were also the biggest supplier to the Iraqi army.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:22 pm 
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message #2527204 wrote:
tc27 wrote:
Anyway - Vlad cant protect his client regime in the ME and was too scared to even turn on his vaunted missile defenses to protect Syria whilst his Russian trained and equipped allies ended up launching dozens of missiles pointlessly after the strike had finished.


Managed to finally get rid of that pesky stash of Egyptian cotton


Chocolate Covered Cotton?


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:24 pm 
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pontifex wrote:
Have a read of this: https://www.conflictarm.com/download-fi ... le_id=2574

It is a best attempt at identifying the sources of IS weaponry, and the US is right up there as a source.

It's abundantly clear that the US has had their finger in this war reasonably deeply, and against the Syrian government, for some time, and that they're happy to provide weapons to supposed enemies. I see no reason to trust their statements on Syria any more than those of the Russians - and in this case, logic, and a fair bit of evidence suggests that the Syrian government did not gas civilians. Meanwhile, the UK is selling cluster bombs to the Saudis to use on Yemen (and Yemeni civilians). The Russians are certainly on the wrong side of some things in this multi-theatre proxy war, but they're not the ones on the wrong side in the Middle East. We are.


Without getting too deep into the latest five minutes of shenanigans going on I can't help but agree tbh.

Too put it simply, we're basically backing oil rich bedouins over a civilization older than ours.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:27 pm 
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Once again it boils down to the rank stupidity of the "Enemy of my enemy" approach to foreign relations.
It's all too easy for both sides to be arseholes, and for the civilians caught up in it to be the ones getting royally shafted, yet again.
Rinse.
Repeat.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:37 pm 
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Turbogoat wrote:
Once again it boils down to the rank stupidity of the "Enemy of my enemy" approach to foreign relations.
It's all too easy for both sides to be arseholes, and for the civilians caught up in it to be the ones getting royally shafted, yet again.
Rinse.
Repeat.


What does?


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:42 pm 
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RuggaBugga wrote:
Turbogoat wrote:
Once again it boils down to the rank stupidity of the "Enemy of my enemy" approach to foreign relations.
It's all too easy for both sides to be arseholes, and for the civilians caught up in it to be the ones getting royally shafted, yet again.
Rinse.
Repeat.


What does?


So many of the attempts, missteps, and clusterfucks getting involved in the Middle East from other nations.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:54 pm 
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Quote:
a civilization older than ours.


The Persians ?


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:02 pm 
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Bullettyme wrote:
pontifex wrote:
Have a read of this: https://www.conflictarm.com/download-fi ... le_id=2574

It is a best attempt at identifying the sources of IS weaponry, and the US is right up there as a source.

It's abundantly clear that the US has had their finger in this war reasonably deeply, and against the Syrian government, for some time, and that they're happy to provide weapons to supposed enemies. I see no reason to trust their statements on Syria any more than those of the Russians - and in this case, logic, and a fair bit of evidence suggests that the Syrian government did not gas civilians. Meanwhile, the UK is selling cluster bombs to the Saudis to use on Yemen (and Yemeni civilians). The Russians are certainly on the wrong side of some things in this multi-theatre proxy war, but they're not the ones on the wrong side in the Middle East. We are.


The Iraqi army completely collapsed in Mosul and Northern Iraq, leaving behind tonnes of heavy weapons and small arms. It's not surprise the US is up there considering they were also the biggest supplier to the Iraqi army.

Read the article. Some anti-tank weapons were sold by the Bulgarian manufacturer to the US, for their use exclusively, within 59 days of being found in the arms of ISIS soldiers. Their provenance is not all, or even mainly, via Mosul.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:19 pm 
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:lol: Yeah, I'm not reading 200 pages of it today. Will do another time. A brief skim sets out that 50% of the arms come from Russia and China. I've no doubt that the US vetting system was a complete crock, and has has been involved since the start.

Not sure what the "wrong side" is in the ME though really. You'd want to flesh that out. And as for "evidence and logic" part of your post, haven't been presented with a) and evidence and b) any logic apart from the discredited "he's winning the war why would he do this". Must just be a coincidence that Ghouta capitulated so soon after the alleged chemical attacks. For me the previous points to the Assad government, a long with the usual Russian obfuscation.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:23 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
Quote:
a civilization older than ours.


The Persians ?


Yes.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:26 pm 
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RuggaBugga wrote:
Bowens wrote:
message #2527204 wrote:
Bowens wrote:
You're good man. But Syria is on all our radars now, and with smart phones and sociaml media everyone has access to info they didn't necessarily during Iraq 1 & 2. We have seen this movie before.

Is f**king frkightening that people prefer to believe hostile propaganda on FB than their own governemnt. And that they think that fabricated, bullshitting memes somehow give them the 'bigger picture' rather than obfuscating the truth as they are designed to do


FB memes? This is a pretty cliched argument. The people sharing those seem to mostly be Baby Boomers like Taranaki Snapper. I use Twitter to follow some independent media (who probably have better records when fact-checked than some mainstream sources). That's about it. Imagine being a big enough doofus to still trust people like Brian Williams on Syria after all that has transpired in recent years.


Like who?


Mainly TYT network but I watch and read stuff from all different viewpoints. Basically anyone who doesn't shill for corporations.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:27 pm 
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Bowens wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Quote:
a civilization older than ours.


The Persians ?


Yes.



It's an obscene comparison if you take the current regimes. And is it really even older than post "Magna Carta" UK or federal France from the 10th century ?


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:35 pm 
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message #2527204 wrote:
Wilson's Toffee wrote:
message #2527204 wrote:
Wilson's Toffee wrote:
message #2527204 wrote:

By 'The western alliance' I take it you mean 3 of the 5 permanent members of the UN body that has primary responsibility for the maintenance of international peace and security?

Assad has been warned on many occasions not to use chemical weapons and there have been 400 reports of his forces using them since then. It is a UN security matter if international treaties are flouted.



So according to which UN resolution did the governments of the USA, UK and France attack Syria, a sovereign country, earlier this month ? Who give them the right to deploy troops and military personnel in Syria, uninvited ? Why do they assist and abet forces illegally waging an armed conflict with teh legal government of Syria ? On whose authority ?

In Syria the mentioned Western countries are simply terrorist states, aiding and fomenting terror. Nothing more. Quite despicable, actually, but they have form ...


Parties to the Geneva Conventions and their additional protocols are explicitly obligated not only to respect their treaty obligations, but also to ensure respect for them.

According to which resolution can Russia ignore the laws regarding chemical weapons?

The use of chemical weapons is a war crime
The use of chemical weapons is a violation of international criminal law
The use of chemical weapons in a widespread and systematic attack against a civilian population is a crime against humanity.



Did Russia deploy chemical weapons ? Where and when ? Dates and places....


So, Russia is guilty, because you say so, and they'd better provide evidence that they are not ?


Parties to the Geneva Conventions and their additional protocols are explicitly obligated not only to respect their treaty obligations, but also to ensure respect for them.

In 2003 both the US and UK broke those protocols. Blair and Bush have never been prosecuted in the International court in the Hague. You can't pick and chose when to apply the GC.

On top of that. Drone strikes carried out by the Western Alliance or mostly US have bombed hospitals, civilians and even funeral functions where children were killed. They are the last ones to be enforcing any international protocols.

And that's not even taking into account the questionable evidence about Assads guilt.

Enough with the propaganda and leave those countries alone. You've done enough damage already.


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