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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:22 pm 
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backrow wrote:
Big Nipper wrote:
Bokkom wrote:
It's a powerplay between Iran and Saudi-Arabia.
Guess to whom the Saudi's sell oil.
Guess who sell the Saudi's military hardware.
The Western powers are shameless.

Thats not a Haiku


haikus are 5-7-5 I think

Arabian Oil
and western aircraft and bombs
what could go so wrong ?


Middle East monsters.
Who sells the weapons to them?
The West is shameless.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:36 pm 
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Democratically elected?

The Syrian one party democracy you mean?

When was this election, and who were the other candidates then?


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:40 pm 
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obelixtim wrote:
Democratically elected?

The Syrian one party democracy you mean?

When was this election, and who were the other candidates then?


It must be like that fijian democracy!


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:42 pm 
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Oceanbreeze wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:
The Syrians and the Russians not allowing OPCW inspectors access to the site. Unsurprising really. They probably haven't finished their clean up.

It's abit late for them anyways given the bombing has already been carried out. They've already been found guilty by the Western non biased intelligent agencies.

Just a shame we can't read the reports because it's obviously too secret but hey we should take the US and UK governments word for it just like Iraq and Libya.


The Russians obviously have a lot to hide here. They're complicit in crimes against humanity at this stage.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:48 pm 
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Well, Daesh and al-Nusra are worse, so....


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:55 pm 
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Bowens wrote:
Well, Daesh and al-Nusra are worse, so....


If we want to go that route I'd say the Syrian regime and its allies have killed more civilians than both combined.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:06 pm 
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Bullettyme wrote:
Bowens wrote:
Well, Daesh and al-Nusra are worse, so....


If we want to go that route I'd say the Syrian regime and its allies have killed more civilians than both combined.


Globally? No, absolutely not. We can only take the last 15 or so years into account since these groups didn't really exist before then. And they're responsible not only for large scale civilian deaths, but horrible atrocities like mass rapes, ethnic cleansing, and other things that don't need repeating.

Anyway, we have seen the consequences of regime change in the Middle East. It's monumentally bad policy.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:38 pm 
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Bullettyme wrote:
Bowens wrote:
Well, Daesh and al-Nusra are worse, so....


If we want to go that route I'd say the Syrian regime and its allies have killed more civilians than both combined.

You're dead right Bullet, but don't let your narrative get in the way of their stupidity.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:39 pm 
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Bowens wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:
Bowens wrote:
Well, Daesh and al-Nusra are worse, so....


If we want to go that route I'd say the Syrian regime and its allies have killed more civilians than both combined.


Globally? No, absolutely not. We can only take the last 15 or so years into account since these groups didn't really exist before then. And they're responsible not only for large scale civilian deaths, but horrible atrocities like mass rapes, ethnic cleansing, and other things that don't need repeating.

Anyway, we have seen the consequences of regime change in the Middle East. It's monumentally bad policy.

Did Theresa say she wanted Assad gone?

No, I don't think so.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:42 pm 
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Wendigo7 wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:
Bowens wrote:
Well, Daesh and al-Nusra are worse, so....


If we want to go that route I'd say the Syrian regime and its allies have killed more civilians than both combined.

You're dead right Bullet, but don't let your narrative get in the way of their stupidity.


Share your stats on civilian deaths attributed specifically to Assad's government (not just civilian conflict deaths which can be caused by either side). ISIS killed 5000 in the Sinjar massacre alone ffs. The Syrian regime actually protects their minorities rather than cleanse them. The Christian Syrians I have known are regime supporters.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:46 pm 
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Wendigo7 wrote:
Bowens wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:
Bowens wrote:
Well, Daesh and al-Nusra are worse, so....


If we want to go that route I'd say the Syrian regime and its allies have killed more civilians than both combined.


Globally? No, absolutely not. We can only take the last 15 or so years into account since these groups didn't really exist before then. And they're responsible not only for large scale civilian deaths, but horrible atrocities like mass rapes, ethnic cleansing, and other things that don't need repeating.

Anyway, we have seen the consequences of regime change in the Middle East. It's monumentally bad policy.

Did Theresa say she wanted Assad gone?

No, I don't think so.


If you don't understand that this is an effort by the west-Israel-Saudi to draw Iran into a wider conflict and promote regime change there, I don't know what to tell you. But obviously they want Assad and his secular government gone as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:48 pm 
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f**king hell Bowens. This has been going on for years and we took the advice of step away.

fudge that, seriously fudge that. Isolationism won't get you anywhere, if anything and it may get you more resented, not less.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:51 pm 
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Ok, let's kill more Syrian kids, deny their refugees entry (in the case of the US) and embolden jihadists. Let's see where that gets us.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:55 pm 
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Bowens wrote:
Ok, let's kill more Syrian kids, deny their refugees entry (in the case of the US) and embolden jihadists. Let's see where that gets us.

No one in the bombing was killed.

As far as your comments, if we don't attack, people die, if we do attack, some may die, likely those of assad and a few civilians, maybe quite a few... but not acting is just as bad. What part of this do you not twig?

There is no will worldwide for wars generally, at least not at the moment despite the hysteria I don't think anyone can afford it. However, this stupid, stupid idea that if everyone was a pacifist the world's problems would end is ridiculous. It would just be abused. You'd have a situation whereby by law, countries wouldn't condone attacks but then no one would do anything and lots of people would still die. The morality would be shot to bits because people are still dying but that's ok, your own morals are still in tact.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:57 pm 
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I'm aware no one was killed (Trump and Bolton wanted a much bigger strike BTW). Again, do you think this is a one-off? No, it's designed to provoke a response.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:13 pm 
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Bowens wrote:
I'm aware no one was killed (Trump and Bolton wanted a much bigger strike BTW). Again, do you think this is a one-off? No, it's designed to provoke a response.



It's absolutely designed to provoke the response of not using bloody chemical weapons. You're clearly ignoring any response that would change your views and come across as a bit of a zealot.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:13 pm 
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Bowens wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:
Bowens wrote:
Well, Daesh and al-Nusra are worse, so....


If we want to go that route I'd say the Syrian regime and its allies have killed more civilians than both combined.


Globally? No, absolutely not. We can only take the last 15 or so years into account since these groups didn't really exist before then. And they're responsible not only for large scale civilian deaths, but horrible atrocities like mass rapes, ethnic cleansing, and other things that don't need repeating.

Anyway, we have seen the consequences of regime change in the Middle East. It's monumentally bad policy.


Are we talking globally or within Syria? I agree with you about regime change, however I don't agree that the choice for the Syrians is a binary one of Assad or Jihadists.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:16 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
Bowens wrote:
I'm aware no one was killed (Trump and Bolton wanted a much bigger strike BTW). Again, do you think this is a one-off? No, it's designed to provoke a response.



It's absolutely designed to provoke the response of not using bloody chemical weapons. You're clearly ignoring any response that would change your views and come across as a bit of a zealot.


That's not my intention. Again, I have worked with lots of everyday Syrians and have been humbled by their work ethic and generosity. I don't want their country bombed to rubble. A week ago we were going to leave Assad alone then a chemical attack? Sorry, doesn't wash.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:23 pm 
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Bowens wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Bowens wrote:
I'm aware no one was killed (Trump and Bolton wanted a much bigger strike BTW). Again, do you think this is a one-off? No, it's designed to provoke a response.



It's absolutely designed to provoke the response of not using bloody chemical weapons. You're clearly ignoring any response that would change your views and come across as a bit of a zealot.


That's not my intention. Again, I have worked with lots of everyday Syrians and have been humbled by their work ethic and generosity. I don't want their country bombed to rubble. A week ago we were going to leave Assad alone then a chemical attack? Sorry, doesn't wash.



"Bombed to rubble" , or a targeted attack , pre ordered as a demonstration.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:25 pm 
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Bowens wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Bowens wrote:
I'm aware no one was killed (Trump and Bolton wanted a much bigger strike BTW). Again, do you think this is a one-off? No, it's designed to provoke a response.



It's absolutely designed to provoke the response of not using bloody chemical weapons. You're clearly ignoring any response that would change your views and come across as a bit of a zealot.


That's not my intention. Again, I have worked with lots of everyday Syrians and have been humbled by their work ethic and generosity. I don't want their country bombed to rubble. A week ago we were going to leave Assad alone then a chemical attack? Sorry, doesn't wash.


Exactly. The handful of bombs that the US, UK and France dropped on Syria have reduced their country to rubble. Whereas the thousands that Russia and Syria have dropped have mostl been performing landscape gardening.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:27 pm 
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A5D5E5 wrote:
Bowens wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Bowens wrote:
I'm aware no one was killed (Trump and Bolton wanted a much bigger strike BTW). Again, do you think this is a one-off? No, it's designed to provoke a response.



It's absolutely designed to provoke the response of not using bloody chemical weapons. You're clearly ignoring any response that would change your views and come across as a bit of a zealot.


That's not my intention. Again, I have worked with lots of everyday Syrians and have been humbled by their work ethic and generosity. I don't want their country bombed to rubble. A week ago we were going to leave Assad alone then a chemical attack? Sorry, doesn't wash.


Exactly. The handful of bombs that the US, UK and France dropped on Syria have reduced their country to rubble. Whereas the thousands that Russia and Syria have dropped have mostl been performing landscape gardening.


That's a pretty disingenuous take. This is the beginning in my view, I clarified that several times above. No war with Syria. No war with Iran. Assad killing head-choppers is fine by me.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:36 pm 
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Its pretty clear Putin's plan is to cause carnage in Syria to absolutely flood Europe with Refugees from the ME along with African opportunists to cause internal conflicts and destabilise Europe, hes doing a damn good job tbf


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:41 pm 
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Quote:
That's a pretty disingenuous take. This is the beginning in my view, I clarified that several times above. No war with Syria. No war with Iran. Assad killing head-choppers is fine by me.




Yeah they've demonstrated a big start by phoning through their intentions and sending missles to a few warehouses, nothing says war than that type of limited demonstration ...


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:43 pm 
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Trump and Bolton wanted a bigger strike. Just repeating myself now.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:44 pm 
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Bowens wrote:
Trump and Bolton wanted a bigger strike. Just repeating myself now.



You keep saying this, what's that based on ?


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:46 pm 
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First link I grabbed. There are more if you need further convincing.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-seek ... 1523651589

Edit: or in simple tweet form... https://mobile.twitter.com/jimsciutto/s ... 9103928322


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:51 pm 
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Bowens wrote:
First link I grabbed. There are more if you need further convincing.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-seek ... 1523651589



I find the WSJ particularly accurate where Trump is concerned .... Anything from Trump himself?

I bet CNN's a doozy.

Anything from the governemnt ?


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:53 pm 
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Anything from the WH that they had internal disagreements? No, of course not. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:57 pm 
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For those dismissive of the atrocities committed by the Assad regime as killing "head choppers" this https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/04/18/bashar-al-assads-war-crimes-exposed is a good read, by good I mean horrifying, about what has been going on and the efforts to document the regime's crimes.

It's a couple of years old but I doubt things have got much better.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:59 pm 
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Bobless wrote:
For those dismissive of the atrocities committed by the Assad regime as killing "head choppers" this https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/04/18/bashar-al-assads-war-crimes-exposed is a good read, by good I mean horrifying, about what has been going on and the efforts to document the regime's crimes.

It's a couple of years old but I doubt things have got much better.



I'm confused now, is he a bad guy who should have his ability to use gas with impunity encouraged or not ?


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:00 pm 
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Bowens wrote:
Anything from the WH that they had internal disagreements? No, of course not. :lol:



So your opinion is framed entirely by his critics ?


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:02 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
Bowens wrote:
Anything from the WH that they had internal disagreements? No, of course not. :lol:



So your opinion is framed entirely by his critics ?

His opinion is framed by his view of Trump.

Trump's not great but I really hope his view of syria isn't because of him etc etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:04 pm 
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Wendigo7 wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Bowens wrote:
Anything from the WH that they had internal disagreements? No, of course not. :lol:



So your opinion is framed entirely by his critics ?

His opinion is framed by his view of Trump.

Trump's not great but I really hope his view of syria isn't because of him etc etc.



My view of trump is pretty low, though I try to avoid the hyperbole exercised by many in the media and on PR.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:04 pm 
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I think what will be dawning surely now on much of the American people is that they don't have a scintilla of control over the foreign policy of the country, and no matter what they do, it seems to go the same way.

It's extremely difficult to assess with any degree of accuracy what Trump's motives are, but I still hold out hope that this is a sharp triangulation manoevre to shake the Russia hawks from his tail for a moment. He appears to be in full deal mode now.

But he now needs to zag back sharply to his base. At some stage down the line (post Trump) you wonder if a General isn't going to seize control of this situation and take the armed forces back for the American people, as there seems to be a very deep disconnect between what the people want (and who man the forces) and the wars they are deployed for.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:08 pm 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
I think what will be dawning surely now on much of the American people is that they don't have a scintilla of control over the foreign policy of the country, and no matter what they do, it seems to go the same way.

It's extremely difficult to assess with any degree of accuracy what Trump's motives are, but I still hold out hope that this is a sharp triangulation manoevre to shake the Russia hawks from his tail for a moment. He appears to be in full deal mode now.

But he now needs to zag back sharply to his base. At some stage down the line (post Trump) you wonder if a General isn't going to seize control of this situation and take the armed forces back for the American people, as there seems to be a very deep disconnect between what the people want (and who man the forces) and the wars they are deployed for.



You think the complexity of US foreign policy should be controlled by stupid people living 1,000 km from even an ocean let alone a foreign country ?


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:15 pm 
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goose81 wrote:
Its pretty clear Putin's plan is to cause carnage in Syria to absolutely flood Europe with Refugees from the ME along with African opportunists to cause internal conflicts and destabilise Europe, hes doing a damn good job tbf



Jesus. A new madness ...

:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:16 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
I think what will be dawning surely now on much of the American people is that they don't have a scintilla of control over the foreign policy of the country, and no matter what they do, it seems to go the same way.

It's extremely difficult to assess with any degree of accuracy what Trump's motives are, but I still hold out hope that this is a sharp triangulation manoevre to shake the Russia hawks from his tail for a moment. He appears to be in full deal mode now.

But he now needs to zag back sharply to his base. At some stage down the line (post Trump) you wonder if a General isn't going to seize control of this situation and take the armed forces back for the American people, as there seems to be a very deep disconnect between what the people want (and who man the forces) and the wars they are deployed for.



You think the complexity of US foreign policy should be controlled by stupid people living 1,000 km from even an ocean let alone a foreign country ?


Image


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:16 pm 
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Bowens wrote:
A5D5E5 wrote:
Bowens wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Bowens wrote:
I'm aware no one was killed (Trump and Bolton wanted a much bigger strike BTW). Again, do you think this is a one-off? No, it's designed to provoke a response.



It's absolutely designed to provoke the response of not using bloody chemical weapons. You're clearly ignoring any response that would change your views and come across as a bit of a zealot.


That's not my intention. Again, I have worked with lots of everyday Syrians and have been humbled by their work ethic and generosity. I don't want their country bombed to rubble. A week ago we were going to leave Assad alone then a chemical attack? Sorry, doesn't wash.


Exactly. The handful of bombs that the US, UK and France dropped on Syria have reduced their country to rubble. Whereas the thousands that Russia and Syria have dropped have mostl been performing landscape gardening.


That's a pretty disingenuous take. This is the beginning in my view, I clarified that several times above. No war with Syria. No war with Iran. Assad killing head-choppers is fine by me.


Syria must have had the highest concentration of women and children "head choppers" anywhere in the world. Perhaps he should be given a small award for his contribution to ridding the world from the tyranny of 3 year olds.


Last edited by A5D5E5 on Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:17 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
You think the complexity of US foreign policy should be controlled by stupid people living 1,000 km from even an ocean let alone a foreign country ?


And there we have it. Another guy who thinks he's better than people. But by all means, go into a working man's bar in Chicago or St Louis and try that shtick.


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 Post subject: Re: Vlad's at it again
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:20 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
I think what will be dawning surely now on much of the American people is that they don't have a scintilla of control over the foreign policy of the country, and no matter what they do, it seems to go the same way.

It's extremely difficult to assess with any degree of accuracy what Trump's motives are, but I still hold out hope that this is a sharp triangulation manoevre to shake the Russia hawks from his tail for a moment. He appears to be in full deal mode now.

But he now needs to zag back sharply to his base. At some stage down the line (post Trump) you wonder if a General isn't going to seize control of this situation and take the armed forces back for the American people, as there seems to be a very deep disconnect between what the people want (and who man the forces) and the wars they are deployed for.



You think the complexity of US foreign policy should be controlled by stupid people living 1,000 km from even an ocean let alone a foreign country ?



Many many countries are big enough for that - we all do not live on an itty bitty island ...


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