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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:34 pm 
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“Moves forwards towards the ball; or

Was in front of a team-mate who kicked the ball and fails to retire immediately to an imaginary line across the field 10 metres on that player’s side from where the ball is caught or lands, even if it hits a goal post or crossbar first. If this involves more than one player, then the player closest to where the ball lands or is caught is the one penalised. This is known as the 10-metre law and still applies if the ball touches or is played by an opponent but not when the kick is charged down. “


From what I can see from the laws is that you have to retreat to 10m behind where the ball is caught.
Hogg is however clever that although he is offside and moving towards the ball, he does not appear to have moved forward.

However, IMO he has not retreated the required 10m from where the ball landed.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:42 pm 
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Yep. Clearly offside. Never retreated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOJI8huNnYg&t=1m42s


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:33 pm 
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That is a rather interesting point - any bored refs about that can give us a definitive?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:39 pm 
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Off course he retreated, he was running towards his own tryline. Never inside the 10m circle and then once Jones regathered none of it matters as he hadn't come close to interfering in the play. :?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:42 pm 
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Flametop wrote:
Yep. Clearly offside. Never retreated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOJI8huNnYg&t=1m42s


He does yeah.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:45 pm 
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Flametop wrote:
Yep. Clearly offside. Never retreated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOJI8huNnYg&t=1m42s

Huh? He retreated until he was played inside.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:52 pm 
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Toro wrote:
Off course he retreated, he was running towards his own tryline. Never inside the 10m circle and then once Jones regathered none of it matters as he hadn't come close to interfering in the play. :?


That’s the ruck law.
See above for the imaginary line across the pitch.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:02 pm 
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happyhooker wrote:
Flametop wrote:
Yep. Clearly offside. Never retreated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOJI8huNnYg&t=1m42s

Huh? He retreated until he was played inside.

Was he inside or onside?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:04 pm 
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Other than under Law 10.4c, an offside player can be put onside when:
That player:

Moves behind a team-mate who last played the ball; or

Moves behind a team-mate who is onside.”

Law 10.4c is:

“Was in front of a team-mate who kicked the ball and fails to retire immediately to an imaginary line across the field 10 metres on that player’s side from where the ball is caught or lands, even if it hits a goal post or crossbar first. If this involves more than one player, then the player closest to where the ball lands or is caught is the one penalised. This is known as the 10-metre law and still applies if the ball touches or is played by an opponent but not when the kick is charged down. ”

So it essentially means that if you are ahead of the kicker, you are not put back onside just by getting behind your team mate with the ball, you have to retreat to a position 10m back towards your own try line from where the ball bounced or was caught.

It’s clear that Hogg’s run was parallel to the half way line, between the half way line and Ireland’s 10 yard line. That’s pretty much where the ball bounced and he never retreated further back than that.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:24 pm 
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If you want to chase a kick and defend you can't be played onside by your own player no, but in this case Jones regathers so it's just normal play. He doesn't need to be put onside. I think you're quoting a moot law in this case.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:34 pm 
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Toro wrote:
If you want to chase a kick and defend you can't be played onside by your own player no, but in this case Jones regathers so it's just normal play. He doesn't need to be put onside. I think you're quoting a moot law in this case.


:?

It’s quite clear. 10m back from where the ball lands or is caught.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:41 pm 
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Caught by the opposition not by the player who kicked the ball.

Let me offer an example:

Ireland kicks long from inside their half, all Scottish players are near the 22. Hogg gathers the kick on his 22 and attacks. He chips over the chasers and the ball bounces on half way and he regathers.

His whole team does not have to return to 10m before halfway to be able to run towards him in support.

If that chip was taken by Ireland then the law you quoted would be used.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:45 pm 
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Toro wrote:
Caught by the opposition not by the player who kicked the ball.

Let me offer an example:

Ireland kicks long from inside their half, all Scottish players are near the 22. Hogg gathers the kick on his 22 and attacks. He chips over the chasers and the ball bounces on half way and he regathers.

His whole team does not have to return to 10m before halfway to be able to run towards him in support.

If that chip was taken by Ireland then the law you quoted would be used.


I'm not sure the laws make a distinction as to who next plays the ball, apart from touched in flight/blocked down which the laws clearly state does not put the offside players back on if they are within 10m.

While I do kind of think that the 10m radius is more in keeping with the spirit of the laws, there's no doubt that Hogg does gain an advantage by starting in an offside position and not retreating fully to an onside one.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:51 pm 
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There’s no distinction because it’s not relevant.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:51 pm 
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Toro wrote:
Caught by the opposition not by the player who kicked the ball.

Let me offer an example:

Ireland kicks long from inside their half, all Scottish players are near the 22. Hogg gathers the kick on his 22 and attacks. He chips over the chasers and the ball bounces on half way and he regathers.

His whole team does not have to return to 10m before halfway to be able to run towards him in support.

If that chip was taken by Ireland then the law you quoted would be used.


The laws say that they do have to retreat that far.
I’m interested in clarity, if you could please quote the relevant section of the law which you feel supports your position, it might help to understand why you think this is the case.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:17 pm 
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Toro wrote:
If you want to chase a kick and defend you can't be played onside by your own player no, but in this case Jones regathers so it's just normal play. He doesn't need to be put onside. I think you're quoting a moot law in this case.


Let's say Jones kicks to the far right corner and then legs it up the left touchline. Are you saying it's legal for Hogg to wait on the try line and then touch the ball down once Jones goes past him on the other side of the pitch? Or make a half arsed attempt to get onside until Jones passes him?

Or are you saying Jones regathering removes the offside line and if so, why? Take as an example a garryowen that's recovered by the kicker, are you saying a teammate can support the receiver as long as he made a half arsed attempt to retreat but never got back over the 10m line?

As per Flametop's request, I'd be interested in the relevant law. And I'm not having a go at you, genuinely curious.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:23 pm 
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CM11 wrote:
Toro wrote:
If you want to chase a kick and defend you can't be played onside by your own player no, but in this case Jones regathers so it's just normal play. He doesn't need to be put onside. I think you're quoting a moot law in this case.


Let's say Jones kicks to the far right corner and then legs it up the left touchline. Are you saying it's legal for Hogg to wait on the try line and then touch the ball down once Jones goes past him on the other side of the pitch? Or make a half arsed attempt to get onside until Jones passes him?

Or are you saying Jones regathering removes the offside line and if so, why? Take as an example a garryowen that's recovered by the kicker, are you saying a teammate can support the receiver as long as he made a half arsed attempt to retreat but never got back over the 10m line?

As per Flametop's request, I'd be interested in the relevant law. And I'm not having a go at you, genuinely curious.


Absolutely, I’d like clarity and it’s not at all personal Toro.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:23 pm 
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There’s no distinction because it’s not relevant.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:24 pm 
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Toro wrote:
There’s no distinction because it’s not relevant.


Wut? How is my garryowen example not relevant?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:27 pm 
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Sorry about the weird double posts, phone just went mental.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:39 pm 
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I mean the law you quoted, for me, is clearly written referring to the ball being caught by the opposition, not by the same player. That’s why I say in this case it isn’t relevant as opposed to not making a distinction.

The exaample of someone just waiting to be put inside is relevant to the law as he CAN’T be put inside in this case, he has to retire 10m if he wants the try and play the ball.

When a kick is made, the time it’s in the air or not touched by anyone is the time that everyone has to act accordingly. If the opposition catches the ball or if it’s loose you must be onside to influence or take part in play. But as soon as your teammate has possession of the ball all bets are off, it’s just back to normal play and the only way you can be offside is to influence play from in front of the carrier.

It seems pretty clear to me but I have nothing to quote. I just think you guys are overthinking it, this happens multiple times in every game and offside has never been called on a support runner in any game I’ve ever seen so I can only presume there is a reason.

A less clear cut one was Jones’ try against the All Blacks where he advanced in an offside position to take the pass, we discussed this then as well.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:43 pm 
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Flametop wrote:
CM11 wrote:

As per Flametop's request, I'd be interested in the relevant law. And I'm not having a go at you, genuinely curious.


Absolutely, I’d like clarity and it’s not at all personal Toro.


Never took it personal! :thumbup:

I’m on my phone is responses have seemed short, as in blunt or rude.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:26 pm 
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Toro wrote:
There’s no distinction because it’s not relevant.


But you've been arguing that the fact the kicking player regathering the kick somehow has different laws attached to it than any other player playing the ball next. You can't say there's no distinction as its not relevant when you've been arguing the relevance of the distinction!!!!

Or am I completely missing your point?

Edit - having read your above post I'm not that much clearer. If the ball is regathered, supporting players can still gain an advantage by being in a offside position. I don't see how their offsidedness (its a bloody word now if it wasn't before) is somehow lessened depending on whether their next action is a support run as opposed to an attempted tackle.

And I would be amazed if the laws actually did make such a reference.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:41 pm 
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PornDog wrote:
Toro wrote:
There’s no distinction because it’s not relevant.


But you've been arguing that the fact the kicking player regathering the kick somehow has different laws attached to it than any other player playing the ball next. You can't say there's no distinction as its not relevant when you've been arguing the relevance of the distinction!!!!

Or am I completely missing your point?

Edit - having read your above post I'm not that much clearer. If the ball is regathered, supporting players can still gain an advantage by being in a offside position. I don't see how their offsidedness (its a bloody word now if it wasn't before) is somehow lessened depending on whether their next action is a support run as opposed to an attempted tackle.

And I would be amazed if the laws actually did make such a reference.


Again, I think you're overcomplicating things.

Materiality is the big thing to keep in mind here.

A player kicks the ball.
Everyone of his team in front of him is offside. :thumbup:

There two distinctions here in terms of the offside player:
1:Someone advancing in front of the kicker who must stop advancing until put onside by kicker or another onside advancing player.
2: Someone who is well in front of the kicker who must get out of the 10m circle and retreat 10m from where the ball is caught or lands before they can play the ball or the opposition, these players can't be put onside by a teammate.

If a player kicks, at that moment the offside players must act accordingly, but if the kicker regathers, as I see it, everything is back to normal as long as the offside player hasn't influenced play at all while in an offside position.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:48 pm 
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Toro wrote:
PornDog wrote:
Toro wrote:
There’s no distinction because it’s not relevant.


But you've been arguing that the fact the kicking player regathering the kick somehow has different laws attached to it than any other player playing the ball next. You can't say there's no distinction as its not relevant when you've been arguing the relevance of the distinction!!!!

Or am I completely missing your point?

Edit - having read your above post I'm not that much clearer. If the ball is regathered, supporting players can still gain an advantage by being in a offside position. I don't see how their offsidedness (its a bloody word now if it wasn't before) is somehow lessened depending on whether their next action is a support run as opposed to an attempted tackle.

And I would be amazed if the laws actually did make such a reference.


Again, I think you're overcomplicating things.

Materiality is the big thing to keep in mind here.

A player kicks the ball.
Everyone of his team in front of him is offside. :thumbup:

There two distinctions here in terms of the offside player:
1:Someone advancing in front of the kicker who must stop advancing until put onside by kicker or another onside advancing player.
2: Someone who is well in front of the kicker who must get out of the 10m circle and retreat 10m from where the ball is caught or lands before they can play the ball or the opposition, these players can't be put onside by a teammate.

If a player kicks, at that moment the offside players must act accordingly, but if the kicker regathers, as I see it, everything is back to normal as long as the offside player hasn't influenced play at all while in an offside position.


I get your point, but it's a "this is how I think it should work" point, and not one based on the laws of the game, which I suspect don't support your position at all. Certainly as stated, the laws clearly say that it is not a 10m circle but a 10m line drawn across the pitch.

For my money, it would be a harsh ref call to disallow the try had it been scored, but it seems like it wouldn't be entirely without basis. Hogg definitely does gain an advantage from not retreating the full 10m.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:19 pm 
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It's how I believe the laws work, not how I think they should. I point to materiality again, as long as they don't interfere while offside they're all good. It doesn't compute in my head how someone would think they are still offside once their teammate has the ball, if the ref hasn't called offside by that point then it's a clean slate. The notion they should have to run back to someone imaginary line 10m when their team is in possession seems completely illogical to me.

This is why I think the law flametop quotes is irrelevant, but it is interesting they don't seem to specify such an incident.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:29 pm 
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Toro

I think you have to be seen to retreat quickly. Hogg is initially offside from the lineout as it is and should be running parallel to the touchline, imo, at all times until put back onside.

Although not sure if he's definitely offside from a quick throw?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:36 pm 
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CM11 wrote:
Toro

I think you have to be seen to retreat quickly. Hogg is initially offside from the lineout as it is and should be running parallel to the touchline, imo, at all times until put back onside.

Although not sure if he's definitely offside from a quick throw?


His team was in possession from the throw, he's not offside unless he interferes somehow in the play, like everyone else in front of the quick throw, which was the whole team. They don't have to run back to get behind the ball carrier.

IMHO the window to blow for offside was from when he kicked it to when he regathered. He did nothing material to affect play during this time, and ceased to be offside once his team was in possession.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:39 pm 
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Toro wrote:
CM11 wrote:
Toro

I think you have to be seen to retreat quickly. Hogg is initially offside from the lineout as it is and should be running parallel to the touchline, imo, at all times until put back onside.

Although not sure if he's definitely offside from a quick throw?


His team was in possession from the throw, he's not offside unless he interferes somehow in the play, like everyone else in front of the quick throw, which was the whole team. They don't have to run back to get behind the ball carrier.

IMHO the window to blow for offside was from when he kicked it to when he regathered. He did nothing material to affect play during this time, and ceased to be offside once his team was in possession.


I do see your point and as you say it was a short window to look at Hogg. I haven't specifically looked to see if he was retreating quickly in between the kick and regather, that would be the only thing a ref could call him on if you are otherwise correct.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:57 pm 
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At first he was heading straight towards Jones as he countered, when he chipped ahead Hogg checked his run to get behind Jones but it was a split second really.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:09 pm 
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https://cf-e2.streamablevideo.com/video ... TIAzQh8%3D


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:24 pm 
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He was making no effort to get back, he’s a mile offside and gaining a huge advantage as a result, but at the pace of the counter attack few refs are going to have that much awareness to ping him for it.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:43 pm 
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Flametop wrote:
He was making no effort to get back, he’s a mile offside and gaining a huge advantage as a result, but at the pace of the counter attack few refs are going to have that much awareness to ping him for it.


He had no reason to at first as Jones was just running with the ball, the chip and regather was a split second in which he checked his run but even with all that he was nowhere near affecting the play in the split second he was offside.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:16 pm 
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Toro wrote:
Flametop wrote:
He was making no effort to get back, he’s a mile offside and gaining a huge advantage as a result, but at the pace of the counter attack few refs are going to have that much awareness to ping him for it.


He had no reason to at first as Jones was just running with the ball, the chip and regather was a split second in which he checked his run but even with all that he was nowhere near affecting the play in the split second he was offside.


He was ahead of his team mate who had the ball. Ergo, he was offside. He ran all the way across the pitch parallel to the half way line. In that time he easily could have chosen to run back to get back onside (by but chose not to by remaining upfield from the ball carrier. You can’t just hang around offside until your team mate maybe puts you back on by padding you out. You have to make an effort to get back onside.

Law 10.10

“An offside player may be penalised if that player:
Fails to retire without undue delay and benefits from being put onside in a more advantageous position; or

Interferes with play; or
Moves towards the ball.”

Hogg did all four.

Time to let this one go yet?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:25 pm 
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He's not required to actually retreat until the ball is kicked, so the fact that he's in an offside position doesn't matter.

He could possibly be penalised for moving towards the ball under 10.4 (c) but no ref is gonna call that material, I suspect.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:26 pm 
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Jay Cee Gee wrote:
He's not required to actually retreat until the ball is kicked, so the fact that he's in an offside position doesn't matter.

He could possibly be penalised for moving towards the ball under 10.4 (c) but no ref is gonna call that material, I suspect.


Yes he is, see above.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:28 pm 
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Flametop wrote:
Toro wrote:
Flametop wrote:
He was making no effort to get back, he’s a mile offside and gaining a huge advantage as a result, but at the pace of the counter attack few refs are going to have that much awareness to ping him for it.


He had no reason to at first as Jones was just running with the ball, the chip and regather was a split second in which he checked his run but even with all that he was nowhere near affecting the play in the split second he was offside.


He was ahead of his team mate who had the ball. Ergo, he was offside. He ran all the way across the pitch parallel to the half way line. In that time he easily could have chosen to run back to get back onside (by but chose not to by remaining upfield from the ball carrier. You can’t just hang around offside until your team mate maybe puts you back on by padding you out. You have to make an effort to get back onside.


Of course you can (unless a kick comes near you then you need to move) if you don't interfere with anyone while there you'll never get called for it. Players constantly run ahead of the carrier in a counter attack. Being offside is not an offence on it's own, something material has to happen.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:29 pm 
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Toro wrote:
Flametop wrote:
Toro wrote:
Flametop wrote:
He was making no effort to get back, he’s a mile offside and gaining a huge advantage as a result, but at the pace of the counter attack few refs are going to have that much awareness to ping him for it.


He had no reason to at first as Jones was just running with the ball, the chip and regather was a split second in which he checked his run but even with all that he was nowhere near affecting the play in the split second he was offside.


He was ahead of his team mate who had the ball. Ergo, he was offside. He ran all the way across the pitch parallel to the half way line. In that time he easily could have chosen to run back to get back onside (by but chose not to by remaining upfield from the ball carrier. You can’t just hang around offside until your team mate maybe puts you back on by padding you out. You have to make an effort to get back onside.


Of course you can (unless a kick comes near you then you need to move) if you don't interfere with anyone while there you'll never get called for it. Players constantly run ahead of the carrier in a counter attack. Being offside is not an offence on it's own, something material has to happen.


See above.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:31 pm 
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Flametop wrote:
Jay Cee Gee wrote:
He's not required to actually retreat until the ball is kicked, so the fact that he's in an offside position doesn't matter.

He could possibly be penalised for moving towards the ball under 10.4 (c) but no ref is gonna call that material, I suspect.


Yes he is, see above.

Otherwise we'd have players "hatching" all match. If he is offside when the period of open play begins he must make every effort to get back onside before he re-enters play. ANd faffing about waiting for the play to reach you does not constitute making every effort.

People making comparisons with Sexton running on to join play a second time, forget that he is onside when the period of open play begins.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:40 pm 
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Flametop wrote:
Toro wrote:
Flametop wrote:
He was making no effort to get back, he’s a mile offside and gaining a huge advantage as a result, but at the pace of the counter attack few refs are going to have that much awareness to ping him for it.


He had no reason to at first as Jones was just running with the ball, the chip and regather was a split second in which he checked his run but even with all that he was nowhere near affecting the play in the split second he was offside.


He was ahead of his team mate who had the ball. Ergo, he was offside. He ran all the way across the pitch parallel to the half way line. In that time he easily could have chosen to run back to get back onside (by but chose not to by remaining upfield from the ball carrier. You can’t just hang around offside until your team mate maybe puts you back on by padding you out. You have to make an effort to get back onside.

Law 10.10

“An offside player may be penalised if that player:
Fails to retire without undue delay and benefits from being put onside in a more advantageous position; or

Interferes with play; or
Moves towards the ball.”

Hogg did all four.

Time to let this one go yet?


You've quoted the laws referring to offside from a ruck, maul or set piece.


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