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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 10:58 pm 
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piquant wrote:
Gavin Duffy wrote:
piquant wrote:
Gavin Duffy wrote:
I'd love to see the full match analysis that led to the decision.


By the refs? Initially it wasn't that bad, but then Rolland got involved and insisted the report be redone as all bad. Odd that

Eh?


You wanted to see the match analysis done that led to the decision, it was done as per normal, but Rolland wasn't happy with it as it wasn't critical enough of the referee from a political standpoint so it was redone under Rolland's direction and now looks like the ref had a proper shocker. I have to say having watched the game the ref didn't get it all right imo but dear god I can't think of a game where the ref has, and it certainly didn't on a cursory viewing look like an absolute howler, we've seen worse in the 6N


Clancy must be shitting himself. I can't recall a decent game from him.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 11:01 pm 
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LandOTurk wrote:
piquant wrote:
Gavin Duffy wrote:
piquant wrote:
Gavin Duffy wrote:
I'd love to see the full match analysis that led to the decision.


By the refs? Initially it wasn't that bad, but then Rolland got involved and insisted the report be redone as all bad. Odd that

Eh?


You wanted to see the match analysis done that led to the decision, it was done as per normal, but Rolland wasn't happy with it as it wasn't critical enough of the referee from a political standpoint so it was redone under Rolland's direction and now looks like the ref had a proper shocker. I have to say having watched the game the ref didn't get it all right imo but dear god I can't think of a game where the ref has, and it certainly didn't on a cursory viewing look like an absolute howler, we've seen worse in the 6N


Clancy must be shitting himself. I can't recall a decent game from him.


He'll be fine, his name isn't Gheorghe Clancenesu.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:49 am 
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grievous wrote:
This could kill rugby in Romania?

Very likely, They're barely hanging on in the first place.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:06 am 
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grievous wrote:
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Congrats to Russia, Germany and Canada. :thumbup:

WR should throw some coaching at these teams now or 100 point scores are back.


Germany should beg for that millionaire to come back into the fold, Canada needs to get their shit together regardless, they should be qualified already and heading tier two teams.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:21 am 
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Fine margins, but if Portugal hadn't scored a try in the dying seconds of their away game in Poland, it would have been The Netherlands playing Germany for a chance at a RWC ticket.

As much as I'd like to see the Dutch at a RWC, and I believe they will be in the next 10-15 years, it would have been a massacre if they'd somehow made it to Japan.

But fair to say Portugal were by far the best side in the Rugby Europe Trophy and won't embarrass themselves against anyone if they play their strongest XV.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:55 am 
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Nothing unexpected here really. WR were never going to replay that game.

Still seems strange to me that teams can play that many games with ineligible players, certainly a part of rugby that needs to be cleared up. WR should have a department dedicated to this by which players and countries are notified when they are going to be captured and when they are captured.

Very sad for Spain now that it's all done and dusted (although they will appeal) It's a great moment for rugby in Spain right now growth-wise and timing was perfect. Seems the team just got ahead of themselves and believed their own hype.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 10:15 am 
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WR did want a replay, so it's a little odd to say they wouldn't have ever done so. It's just they their submission there should be a replay wasn't accepted by the panel of judges.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 10:23 am 
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I'd also add this isn't going to end rugby in Romania or Spain, though it will hamper/delay progression of the game in both countries, just if rugby in Romania can for instance survive the collapse of he Soviet Union it can survive this. There is in the short term the chance for WR to confirm no matter both countries have failed to qualify for the RWC given both might have expected to do so then no matter they miss out WR will ensure they received central payments equivalent to what they would have received had they gone to Japan, it's a lot of money to Spain and Romania, and it's not that much to WR


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:23 am 
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piquant wrote:
I'd also add this isn't going to end rugby in Romania or Spain, though it will hamper/delay progression of the game in both countries, just if rugby in Romania can for instance survive the collapse of he Soviet Union it can survive this. There is in the short term the chance for WR to confirm no matter both countries have failed to qualify for the RWC given both might have expected to do so then no matter they miss out WR will ensure they received central payments equivalent to what they would have received had they gone to Japan, it's a lot of money to Spain and Romania, and it's not that much to WR


Why should they receive the same payments? I agree some kind of parachute payment may be appropriate, but giving them the same amount is a bit of a farce.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:50 am 
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how can they receive payments and heavy fines at the same time


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 12:35 pm 
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What's the difference in this ineligible player and the likes of Matt Jarvis (cleared to play for Ireland) / Steve Shingler (ineligible for Scotland)?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2012/ ... -breakdown


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 1:44 pm 
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Kid A wrote:
What's the difference in this ineligible player and the likes of Matt Jarvis (cleared to play for Ireland) / Steve Shingler (ineligible for Scotland)?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2012/ ... -breakdown


Jarvis didn't play against a "next representative side." Shingler did, like the French/Spanish players.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 1:57 pm 
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Bowens wrote:
Kid A wrote:
What's the difference in this ineligible player and the likes of Matt Jarvis (cleared to play for Ireland) / Steve Shingler (ineligible for Scotland)?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2012/ ... -breakdown


Jarvis didn't play against a "next representative side." Shingler did, like the French/Spanish players.


Didn't Jarvis and Shingler both play against France under 20s?


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:05 pm 
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The year Loxton played them they weren't France's second team, France A were.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:19 pm 
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won't lie, I'm now a bit lost.
does this mean that Romania are now out of the RWC completely ? or now have to qualify or playoff ?

and Spain and Belgium ?

just feels to me (as someone who hasn't really followed this closely) that WR realised they couldn't get away with out and out saying Romanian ref cheated to get Romania through, so decided to go down some soft ineligible route even though other countries in the past have done this before and kind of got away with it (Granny gate brett sinkinson type things)

absolutely none of this done any good for the game at any level, just plain embarrassing.


Last edited by backrow on Wed May 16, 2018 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:25 pm 
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backrow wrote:
won't lie, I'm now a bit lost.
does this mean that Romania are now out of the RWC completely ? or now have to qualify or playoff ?

and Spain and Belgium ?

romania, spain and belgium out

russia qualify directly as europe 1, in pool A with ireland and scotland

germany plays portugal for the europe 2 spot, the winner faces samoa in the play-off and after the loss will go to the repechage to lose against canada and some others


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:30 pm 
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Akkerman wrote:
backrow wrote:
won't lie, I'm now a bit lost.
does this mean that Romania are now out of the RWC completely ? or now have to qualify or playoff ?

and Spain and Belgium ?

romania, spain and belgium out

russia qualify directly as europe 1, in pool A with ireland and scotland

germany plays portugal for the europe 2 spot, the winner faces samoa in the play-off and after the loss will go to the repechage to lose against canada and some others


succinctly put, ta

so really just a change of whipping boy then, shame as Rom or Spa V Canada or samoa would be good. just for my peace of mind, was Russia in 4th place then and got promoted to 1st ? and then Germany & Portugal (who I presume were 5th and 6th) elevated to 2 and 3 and the playoff ?


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:43 pm 
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russia was 3rd in the qualifying race, after romania and spain, they get promoted to 1st

germany was 4th, they get promoted to 2nd and play portugal, who was 1st the lower ranking group


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:52 pm 
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Ironically Russia got busted with a bunch of eligible Saffas a few world cups ago. France 07 Or maybe even 03.
Let's not forget Tahiti have already been busted this qualifying and Cook islands through to face most likely HK.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:53 pm 
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crackers, Euro should just have lost their berth for being silly bollocks and got Samoa AND Canada through as they have some RWC pedigree.

Japan RWC will be a damp squib anyway most probably, NZ to beat Ireland in the final without needing to get out of 2nd gear.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 3:25 pm 
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backrow wrote:
crackers, Euro should just have lost their berth for being silly bollocks and got Samoa AND Canada through as they have some RWC pedigree.

Japan RWC will be a damp squib anyway most probably, NZ to beat Ireland in the final without needing to get out of 2nd gear.

It's not the Russian or German union's fault that the others cheated and the organisers were incompetent


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:26 pm 
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backrow wrote:
crackers, Euro should just have lost their berth for being silly bollocks and got Samoa AND Canada through as they have some RWC pedigree.

Japan RWC will be a damp squib anyway most probably, NZ to beat Ireland in the final without needing to get out of 2nd gear.
We already did, EU 2 spot was taken away in favor of PI's and that's what caused the whole shitstorm to begin with, all the teams scrambling whatever players they could to secure single EU spot. Otherwise both Spain and Romania would've been thru with no fuss and Russia to playoffs.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:32 pm 
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backrow wrote:
won't lie, I'm now a bit lost.
does this mean that Romania are now out of the RWC completely ? or now have to qualify or playoff ?

and Spain and Belgium ?

just feels to me (as someone who hasn't really followed this closely) that WR realised they couldn't get away with out and out saying Romanian ref cheated to get Romania through, so decided to go down some soft ineligible route even though other countries in the past have done this before and kind of got away with it (Granny gate brett sinkinson type things)

absolutely none of this done any good for the game at any level, just plain embarrassing.


Yep, that some of these Spain players have now played 3 seasons is just plain embarrassing for world rugby. Someone was going on today about the eligibility info is about 17 pages long. Surely in today's day and age there should be a data base and anyone who is going to be captured should be informed by world rugby. I mean it's only sevens, official second team and national team, but WR just palm off responsibility until an issue is raised. What these players had helped their nation to championships over five years, only to have a situation like this provoke investigations.

Just as embarrassing for each individual union though.

The eligibility issue definitely gave them an easy way out to say the game should've been replayed but all the teams are out, so ho hum.

I still think the really important issue was dealt with though, and that being the long suspensions for the players who went after the ref.


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 6:44 am 
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Toro wrote:
Nothing unexpected here really. WR were never going to replay that game.

Still seems strange to me that teams can play that many games with ineligible players, certainly a part of rugby that needs to be cleared up. WR should have a department dedicated to this by which players and countries are notified when they are going to be captured and when they are captured.

Very sad for Spain now that it's all done and dusted (although they will appeal) It's a great moment for rugby in Spain right now growth-wise and timing was perfect. Seems the team just got ahead of themselves and believed their own hype.


I agree. One thing I have been surprised at is that the rule is it is vaguely up to Union to check and get it right. But there appears to be no actual centralized database or system to get it checked out, the unions have to hire their own global detectives or accept the testimony of the actual player.


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 6:50 am 
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piquant wrote:
I'd also add this isn't going to end rugby in Romania or Spain, though it will hamper/delay progression of the game in both countries, just if rugby in Romania can for instance survive the collapse of he Soviet Union it can survive this. There is in the short term the chance for WR to confirm no matter both countries have failed to qualify for the RWC given both might have expected to do so then no matter they miss out WR will ensure they received central payments equivalent to what they would have received had they gone to Japan, it's a lot of money to Spain and Romania, and it's not that much to WR



Also, as I've argued, with so many countries battling it out for places and seemingly small decisions being the difference between them all, but the finances can make a big difference, it's time for World Rugby to consider expanding the RWC. It's obvious after Japan that we will have a number of new Rugby countries attacking old powers with the likes of Russia, Germany, Spain, The Neatherlands, Brazil all ready to kick-on or will be ready soon in the right environment and Samoa, Canada, Romania all potentially struggling right now and the likes of Uruguay vulnerable if they don't qualify.


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 6:51 am 
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Kid A wrote:
Bowens wrote:
Kid A wrote:
What's the difference in this ineligible player and the likes of Matt Jarvis (cleared to play for Ireland) / Steve Shingler (ineligible for Scotland)?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2012/ ... -breakdown


Jarvis didn't play against a "next representative side." Shingler did, like the French/Spanish players.


Didn't Jarvis and Shingler both play against France under 20s?


They, the U20 sides, only qualify as next representative side if their is no A team. e.g. England have the Main team, the saxons and the U20. So the Saxon's qualify but under 20 doesn't.


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 7:06 am 
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BREAKING:

The FFR have confirmed they never informed Spain's illegible players they were "captured" for France. Spain considering this the basis for their appeal.

Stephen Jones remarked the sad fact of this process is that it's all legal teams and lawyers involve dno Rugby people at all, so World Rugby need to reclaim their processes.


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 7:16 am 
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eldanielfire wrote:
Stephen Jones remarked the sad fact of this process is that it's all legal teams and lawyers involve dno Rugby people at all, so World Rugby need to reclaim their processes.
”All” meaning other than, for example, Spain’s counsel Donald Spring (former Irish International)?


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 7:42 am 
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Its a bit of a circus really.
Like someone said, there needs to be a central repository of who is captured by what teams, so that checks can be done with confidence.


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 8:53 am 
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Bowens wrote:
The year Loxton played them they weren't France's second team, France A were.


The issue is that France kept changing their designated "2nd team" when it suited them - they went against IRB laws and were not picked up on it - causing a huge mess. The IRB said at the time, a nation can only change it once every 4 years. Now they say "Yeah but it's all a load of semantics" and everything is fine.


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 9:18 am 
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Farva wrote:
Its a bit of a circus really.
Like someone said, there needs to be a central repository of who is captured by what teams, so that checks can be done with confidence.



It really isn't hard. the teams have to arrive with the correct paperwork at the matches. Just log the paper work centrally with an ID number for all test players, 7's players, A Team players and U20 players.


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 9:42 am 
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eldanielfire wrote:
piquant wrote:
I'd also add this isn't going to end rugby in Romania or Spain, though it will hamper/delay progression of the game in both countries, just if rugby in Romania can for instance survive the collapse of he Soviet Union it can survive this. There is in the short term the chance for WR to confirm no matter both countries have failed to qualify for the RWC given both might have expected to do so then no matter they miss out WR will ensure they received central payments equivalent to what they would have received had they gone to Japan, it's a lot of money to Spain and Romania, and it's not that much to WR



Also, as I've argued, with so many countries battling it out for places and seemingly small decisions being the difference between them all, but the finances can make a big difference, it's time for World Rugby to consider expanding the RWC. It's obvious after Japan that we will have a number of new Rugby countries attacking old powers with the likes of Russia, Germany, Spain, The Neatherlands, Brazil all ready to kick-on or will be ready soon in the right environment and Samoa, Canada, Romania all potentially struggling right now and the likes of Uruguay vulnerable if they don't qualify.

Netherlands ready for WC? You're talking about the women I assume......as usual


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 9:57 am 
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grievous wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
piquant wrote:
I'd also add this isn't going to end rugby in Romania or Spain, though it will hamper/delay progression of the game in both countries, just if rugby in Romania can for instance survive the collapse of he Soviet Union it can survive this. There is in the short term the chance for WR to confirm no matter both countries have failed to qualify for the RWC given both might have expected to do so then no matter they miss out WR will ensure they received central payments equivalent to what they would have received had they gone to Japan, it's a lot of money to Spain and Romania, and it's not that much to WR



Also, as I've argued, with so many countries battling it out for places and seemingly small decisions being the difference between them all, but the finances can make a big difference, it's time for World Rugby to consider expanding the RWC. It's obvious after Japan that we will have a number of new Rugby countries attacking old powers with the likes of Russia, Germany, Spain, The Neatherlands, Brazil all ready to kick-on or will be ready soon in the right environment and Samoa, Canada, Romania all potentially struggling right now and the likes of Uruguay vulnerable if they don't qualify.

Netherlands ready for WC? You're talking about the women I assume......as usual


Yeah, the women will probably be there earlier than the men. But they're both heading in the right direction. Within the next 5 years The Netherlands will have a pretty decent team - if they can keep their players. One of the most promising U20s is currently with the Chiefs and received an invite to train with the NZ U20s. No guessing what he would do IF the opportunity ever materialised...on the sunny side, it would be the poach of poaches and PR would spontaneously combust.


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:01 am 
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grievous wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
piquant wrote:
I'd also add this isn't going to end rugby in Romania or Spain, though it will hamper/delay progression of the game in both countries, just if rugby in Romania can for instance survive the collapse of he Soviet Union it can survive this. There is in the short term the chance for WR to confirm no matter both countries have failed to qualify for the RWC given both might have expected to do so then no matter they miss out WR will ensure they received central payments equivalent to what they would have received had they gone to Japan, it's a lot of money to Spain and Romania, and it's not that much to WR



Also, as I've argued, with so many countries battling it out for places and seemingly small decisions being the difference between them all, but the finances can make a big difference, it's time for World Rugby to consider expanding the RWC. It's obvious after Japan that we will have a number of new Rugby countries attacking old powers with the likes of Russia, Germany, Spain, The Neatherlands, Brazil all ready to kick-on or will be ready soon in the right environment and Samoa, Canada, Romania all potentially struggling right now and the likes of Uruguay vulnerable if they don't qualify.

Netherlands ready for WC? You're talking about the women I assume......as usual


As stated in one of the posts above, they were one decision away form making it in the current campaign. The women are obviously better quality. The fact is right now the teams who just missed out on the World Cup are closer in quality then many who make it then many on the board given them credit for. A RWC entry would help kick them on most likely.


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 12:53 pm 
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Mr Mike wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
Stephen Jones remarked the sad fact of this process is that it's all legal teams and lawyers involve dno Rugby people at all, so World Rugby need to reclaim their processes.
”All” meaning other than, for example, Spain’s counsel Donald Spring (former Irish International)?


Stephen Jones in talking shite shocker.


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 1:10 pm 
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eldanielfire wrote:
grievous wrote:
FullbackAce wrote:
Congrats to Russia, Germany and Canada. :thumbup:

WR should throw some coaching at these teams now or 100 point scores are back.


Germany should beg for that millionaire to come back into the fold, Canada needs to get their shit together regardless, they should be qualified already and heading tier two teams.


I've followed the fallout from not qualifying and the subsequent head tax on amateurs to fund this jaunt to go 0-4 at the RWC, and NOTHING has inspired me to think "Okay, here's where we turn a corner." I don't think we can fall much further, but don't see us climbing back any time soon. The CEO and people on the board give political answers rather than concrete solutions. Ideas they do put forward sound like things they've already been doing for years and/or without any insight to the national rugby landscape nor research.


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 1:27 pm 
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eldanielfire wrote:
grievous wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
piquant wrote:
I'd also add this isn't going to end rugby in Romania or Spain, though it will hamper/delay progression of the game in both countries, just if rugby in Romania can for instance survive the collapse of he Soviet Union it can survive this. There is in the short term the chance for WR to confirm no matter both countries have failed to qualify for the RWC given both might have expected to do so then no matter they miss out WR will ensure they received central payments equivalent to what they would have received had they gone to Japan, it's a lot of money to Spain and Romania, and it's not that much to WR



Also, as I've argued, with so many countries battling it out for places and seemingly small decisions being the difference between them all, but the finances can make a big difference, it's time for World Rugby to consider expanding the RWC. It's obvious after Japan that we will have a number of new Rugby countries attacking old powers with the likes of Russia, Germany, Spain, The Neatherlands, Brazil all ready to kick-on or will be ready soon in the right environment and Samoa, Canada, Romania all potentially struggling right now and the likes of Uruguay vulnerable if they don't qualify.

Netherlands ready for WC? You're talking about the women I assume......as usual


As stated in one of the posts above, they were one decision away form making it in the current campaign. The women are obviously better quality. The fact is right now the teams who just missed out on the World Cup are closer in quality then many who make it then many on the board given them credit for. A RWC entry would help kick them on most likely.

Through default! many European countries have had false dawns, Russia a prime example and now are going again, they are not ready as shown, Holland haven't been in the euro top division since the 90s. Your argument is based on hope not reality.


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 2:47 pm 
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grievous wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
grievous wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
piquant wrote:
I'd also add this isn't going to end rugby in Romania or Spain, though it will hamper/delay progression of the game in both countries, just if rugby in Romania can for instance survive the collapse of he Soviet Union it can survive this. There is in the short term the chance for WR to confirm no matter both countries have failed to qualify for the RWC given both might have expected to do so then no matter they miss out WR will ensure they received central payments equivalent to what they would have received had they gone to Japan, it's a lot of money to Spain and Romania, and it's not that much to WR



Also, as I've argued, with so many countries battling it out for places and seemingly small decisions being the difference between them all, but the finances can make a big difference, it's time for World Rugby to consider expanding the RWC. It's obvious after Japan that we will have a number of new Rugby countries attacking old powers with the likes of Russia, Germany, Spain, The Neatherlands, Brazil all ready to kick-on or will be ready soon in the right environment and Samoa, Canada, Romania all potentially struggling right now and the likes of Uruguay vulnerable if they don't qualify.

Netherlands ready for WC? You're talking about the women I assume......as usual


As stated in one of the posts above, they were one decision away form making it in the current campaign. The women are obviously better quality. The fact is right now the teams who just missed out on the World Cup are closer in quality then many who make it then many on the board given them credit for. A RWC entry would help kick them on most likely.

Through default! many European countries have had false dawns, Russia a prime example and now are going again, they are not ready as shown, Holland haven't been in the euro top division since the 90s. Your argument is based on hope not reality.


The hope is based on the quality of the youth set up which is starting to have an impact at U20 and U18 level but will gather momentum over the next few years as the current crop of 12-16 year olds in the rugby academies start making their marks.

It's night and day from the 'let's hope a few decent expats come and stay in The Hague for a while' days of yore.

It's also organic and building on a strong club culture rather than the sugar daddy model of Germany for instance.


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 3:24 pm 
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eldanielfire wrote:
piquant wrote:
I'd also add this isn't going to end rugby in Romania or Spain, though it will hamper/delay progression of the game in both countries, just if rugby in Romania can for instance survive the collapse of he Soviet Union it can survive this. There is in the short term the chance for WR to confirm no matter both countries have failed to qualify for the RWC given both might have expected to do so then no matter they miss out WR will ensure they received central payments equivalent to what they would have received had they gone to Japan, it's a lot of money to Spain and Romania, and it's not that much to WR



Also, as I've argued, with so many countries battling it out for places and seemingly small decisions being the difference between them all, but the finances can make a big difference, it's time for World Rugby to consider expanding the RWC. It's obvious after Japan that we will have a number of new Rugby countries attacking old powers with the likes of Russia, Germany, Spain, The Neatherlands, Brazil all ready to kick-on or will be ready soon in the right environment and Samoa, Canada, Romania all potentially struggling right now and the likes of Uruguay vulnerable if they don't qualify.


Not sure how you make the leap from national unions cheating to we must expand the World Cup, but whatever.

It's really very few teams battling for spaces. Most of these qualifying games the winners are known in advance of you follow the Tier 2/Tier 3 scene at all. About the only exception to that is a handful of European matches. The U.S. in the 2015 cycle and Canada in this cycle have been the embodiment of failure, and they're each still going to make it.

My main issue with expanding to 24 as I've said before is the first month of the tournament would be entirely skippable for everyone except diehards.


Last edited by Flyin Ryan on Thu May 17, 2018 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 3:27 pm 
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Quote:
It's night and day from the 'let's hope a few decent expats come and stay in The Hague for a while' days of yore.


You mean what Belgium and Spain were doing?


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