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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:03 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
we need to look at a vastly modified format that includes the Americas to flourish.

Here ya go: CANZAR

Hopefully the two A's are for Argentina and/or America/Africa.

That way Australia won't be part of this cancer.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:10 am 
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Ali's Choice wrote:
Why do the three SANZAR countries persist with Super Rugby?

It doesn't make financial sense. It runs at a loss for all three countries. They would be much better off financially not being involved in this tournament. In these tough economic times, when cashed up NH clubs are luring more and more SH players North on hefty contracts, surely loss making projects such as Super Rugby are a luxury that we cannot afford?

I get that we need to prepare our players for test Rugby, and SR does this effectively. But surely the injury toll counter-balances any benefit that our players get from participating in this comp? The injury toll in the NZ conference in particular is immense, and I'm sure it is the same for Australia and SA. Throw in all the travel, and time away from wives, families and partners, and Super Rugby is arguably a massive burden for SH players.

Scrapping SR would allow the three SANZAR nations to concentrate on domestic competitions and International Rugby. The intra-conference games are the big drawcards as it stands anyway. Spectators have voted with their feet, they don't want to pay to see visiting teams from overseas in SR. The abysmal crowd in Johannesburg this year for the Crusaders vs Lions game, which was a replay of last year's final, shows just how little interest there is in the cross-conference games. Also wholly domestic comps would be much more responsive to the needs of players and spectators. There would be no 3am kick offs, no shit games against teams like the Sunwolves and I believe more domestic interest across all three countries.


I agree. Crowds are abysmal. I feel the "product" would be better if the countries just concentrated on their own domestic leagues. Brings back all the old derby tribalism as well.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:10 am 
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kiap wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
we need to look at a vastly modified format that includes the Americas to flourish.

Here ya go: CANZAR

Hopefully the two A's are for Argentina and/or America/Africa.

That way Australia won't be part of this cancer.


Australia needs to be part of an international competition. You're screwed for generations if you try to go it alone.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:13 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
kiap wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
we need to look at a vastly modified format that includes the Americas to flourish.

Here ya go: CANZAR

Hopefully the two A's are for Argentina and/or America/Africa.

That way Australia won't be part of this cancer.


Australia needs to be part of an international competition. You're screwed for generations if you try to go it alone.



Kiap has swallowed the notion that a billionaire with virtually no serious background in the game is going to rescue it.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:18 am 
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sonic_attack wrote:
Me personally, I don't have a problem with the "State Insurance Auckland" side, or "Gallagher Electric Fence" Waikato, or the "Eric Watson Wellington" titles.


Renaissance Capital Taranaki?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:27 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
kiap wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
we need to look at a vastly modified format that includes the Americas to flourish.

Here ya go: CANZAR

Hopefully the two A's are for Argentina and/or America/Africa.

That way Australia won't be part of this cancer.


Australia needs to be part of an international competition. You're screwed for generations if you try to go it alone.

Supe is not an international competition.

It's a club comp, dude.

... and one that's hemorrhaging cash and punters.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:42 am 
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Adding the Sunkittens put the final nail in the coffin for me.

Have any ex-pats noticed how Sky UK are dropping games to the red button or not bothering to feature some games at all this year?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:46 am 
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It's all gone downhill since QP was banned from here and the SANZA head honchos lost their way without being able to read his ideas for the tournament.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:54 am 
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Biffer29 wrote:
Teams in Mitre10 Cup Premier not relegated (6), Teams in Currie Cup Premier not relegated, top 6 from Aus NPC, extra team for the country that won last year plus one team from a qualifying tourney of PAC Island teams / Japan / RGs maybe. Then format is exactly the same as Europe (which is already a proven successful format).


That's just a 20 team Super Rugby with the names changed.

If all we want is a format change, why bother changing the teams?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:07 am 
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kiap wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
we need to look at a vastly modified format that includes the Americas to flourish.

Here ya go: CANZAR

Hopefully the two A's are for Argentina and/or America/Africa.

That way Australia won't be part of this cancer.


Shouldn't include NZ either. If Kiwis think playing the Sunwolves is a waste of time, North Americans aren't going to be any better. Sunwolves are already full of poaches, so if they went that route it'd do nothing to help Can / US rugby 'flourish'. We'd just be a home for mercenaries.

If we can get our houses in order and produce talent like the Argentinians do, then we can talk about getting a place at the big kids table (not even the adult table like Arg can manage).


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:11 am 
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There's no genuine competition is the problem. My belief is that competitions, as per their name, need a certain level of competition to sustain them. If you know with near certainty what the outcome is going to be in a fair stretch of games...then what is the point of watching?

I do believe that this is a broader issue with the strengths of the SA and Oz teams, as opposed to the structure...but essentially, diluting the pot has only exacerbated the strength issues, to the point where even a rugby-tragic like myself will go and do something else if certain teams are playing other teams (i.e. everyone else playing a Kiwi teams for example, but not including the Blues, who I'll barely watch because they are shit).


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:21 am 
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Jeff the Bear wrote:
There's no genuine competition is the problem. My belief is that competitions, as per their name, need a certain level of competition to sustain them. If you know with near certainty what the outcome is going to be in a fair stretch of games...then what is the point of watching?

I do believe that this is a broader issue with the strengths of the SA and Oz teams, as opposed to the structure...but essentially, diluting the pot has only exacerbated the strength issues, to the point where even a rugby-tragic like myself will go and do something else if certain teams are playing other teams (i.e. everyone else playing a Kiwi teams for example, but not including the Blues, who I'll barely watch because they are shit).


The Blues are your team Jeff. Your team.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:30 am 
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As Deng Xiaoping famously said "who cares whether a cat is black or white, as long as it catches mice".



I do not much care what shape competitions take, or who runs them. I would just like to see rugby survive in Australia, one way or the other. I would not expect any miracles from Perth. Or Asia.


Last edited by wamberal99 on Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:31 am 
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The best fix is to have a 6th NZ team based in North Harbour Stadium. Dilute the NZ dominance and even up the playing field.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:42 am 
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Agree, except I'd have it based somewhere else where they can draw a crowd.

Tauranga is pretty big these days


Last edited by deadduck on Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:43 am 
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CrazyIslander wrote:
The best fix is to have a 6th NZ team based in North Harbour Stadium. Dilute the NZ dominance and even up the playing field.


:lol:

There is enough money in Australia for rugby to hook themselves up to some big competition sponsors. Just need someone with real nouse to do it. A six team competition to start off with. Super six, 12 matches over 12 weeks, then top two final, boom. Short and sweet.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:46 am 
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Auckman wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
The best fix is to have a 6th NZ team based in North Harbour Stadium. Dilute the NZ dominance and even up the playing field.


:lol:

There is enough money in Australia for rugby to hook themselves up to some big competition sponsors. Just need someone with real nouse to do it. A six team competition to start off with. Super six, 12 matches over 12 weeks, then top two final, boom. Short and sweet.


Would actually mind that. Honestly. The 4 current SR franchises plus the Force and the Drua. Do as both the A-League and NBL do (also the new Super 6 in Scotland) and play each other 3 times for 15 games. Would do me. Could even integrate with Forrest's plan by adding a Hong Kong team plus another Asian based franchise. Then they could run either 14 weeks or 21 plus finals.

And you're right. The money is there. We all know who that is as well. We just need RA to bite the bullet.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:51 am 
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Auckman wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
The best fix is to have a 6th NZ team based in North Harbour Stadium. Dilute the NZ dominance and even up the playing field.


:lol:

There is enough money in Australia for rugby to hook themselves up to some big competition sponsors. Just need someone with real nouse to do it. A six team competition to start off with. Super six, 12 matches over 12 weeks, then top two final, boom. Short and sweet.


That's actually more along the lines I believe SANZAAR should be looking to compete with one another. NZ could look to do something similar. Argentina could use the proposed Sth American league (they'll likely have 4 team and will also provide much of the talent for the others) and if SA stay they could do similar.

Everyone plays their domestic league and we form a champions league style competition to follow.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:52 am 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
Jeff the Bear wrote:
There's no genuine competition is the problem. My belief is that competitions, as per their name, need a certain level of competition to sustain them. If you know with near certainty what the outcome is going to be in a fair stretch of games...then what is the point of watching?

I do believe that this is a broader issue with the strengths of the SA and Oz teams, as opposed to the structure...but essentially, diluting the pot has only exacerbated the strength issues, to the point where even a rugby-tragic like myself will go and do something else if certain teams are playing other teams (i.e. everyone else playing a Kiwi teams for example, but not including the Blues, who I'll barely watch because they are shit).


The Blues are your team Jeff. Your team.


I don't have a long enough affinity with them to swallow the humongous dollops of shit they seem to perpetually produce.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:02 am 
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Auckman wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
The best fix is to have a 6th NZ team based in North Harbour Stadium. Dilute the NZ dominance and even up the playing field.


:lol:

There is enough money in Australia for rugby to hook themselves up to some big competition sponsors. Just need someone with real nouse to do it. A six team competition to start off with. Super six, 12 matches over 12 weeks, then top two final, boom. Short and sweet.

The problem is that Oz do not have enough good players. NZ have too many.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:35 am 
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deadduck wrote:
Agree, except I'd have it based somewhere else where they can draw a crowd.

Tauranga is pretty big these days

Tauranga is big, but New Plymouth or Napier/Hastings are more likely to draw a crowd.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:37 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
grievous wrote:
Australian sports fans want tribalism, not a match they have to rush home from work or stay up into the wee hours to watch..oh and they want to actually be able to attend not go weeks without seeing any rugby. A state based comp fans can identify with.
A trans tasman comp would be a way to finish the season after local finals but nz don't show any appetite for this so we need to get busy working out how we do it on our own.
I can't believe some still think the Shute shield will take over as the premier national comp, it never came close to be and never will. Honest but poor clubs with poor facilities. Lets just go back to park rugby if thats are only hope.
Anyway that idiot Marinos was recently quoted that the new pro comp in the US will save the day with possible expansion options...the fool has learnt nothing.


I'm of the opinion that the format of Super rugby has been its undoing, but all three original partners still need to work together for their own good, and while the Sunwolves have left us all hating the word 'expansion' we need to look at a vastly modified format that includes the Americas to flourish.

Then you have failed to grasp the core problem the supporters in this country dont want.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:39 am 
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grievous wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
grievous wrote:
Australian sports fans want tribalism, not a match they have to rush home from work or stay up into the wee hours to watch..oh and they want to actually be able to attend not go weeks without seeing any rugby. A state based comp fans can identify with.
A trans tasman comp would be a way to finish the season after local finals but nz don't show any appetite for this so we need to get busy working out how we do it on our own.
I can't believe some still think the Shute shield will take over as the premier national comp, it never came close to be and never will. Honest but poor clubs with poor facilities. Lets just go back to park rugby if thats are only hope.
Anyway that idiot Marinos was recently quoted that the new pro comp in the US will save the day with possible expansion options...the fool has learnt nothing.


I'm of the opinion that the format of Super rugby has been its undoing, but all three original partners still need to work together for their own good, and while the Sunwolves have left us all hating the word 'expansion' we need to look at a vastly modified format that includes the Americas to flourish.

Then you have failed to grasp the core problem the supporters in this country dont want.


Not necessarily. I detailed it above but I'll do it again. I think that the SANZAAR nations need to reassess how they compete with one another. Move away from one united structure and into more domestic/time zone aligned leagues with a Champions League structure added at the end.

So in our case we'd take our current 4 SR squads plus the Force. Add in the Drua and two other teams likely based in expat heavy Asian locales for 8 teams. It's not entirely domestic but it would be time zone friendly for domestic audiences.

New Zealand can do likewise. Take their current 5 and add three more. Perhaps a combined Samoan/Tongan team in that mix.

If SA stay this could be a prime opportunity for them to refocus on the Currie Cup with the 8 top provinces.

The proposed Sth American league is set to use Argentina as its spine with 4 teams. And looks set to run at the same time as SR currently does. Same for Major League Rugby.

These all could be brought into the fold but not as primary competition.

Each of the respective competition could play out their seasons and determine their own champions. From there, a Champions League could Super (whatever number of teams) "X" in a straight knock out format. Or if you were to include the developing leagues you could also enlist the Top League and have two tiers with the traditional SANZAAR nations in one and the rising leagues in the other until they develop the necessary competitiveness overall but with the top two from each qualifying and playing in two pools of 3 home and away for 4 games with the top team from each playing in the final.

I think that would actually be a pretty attractive structure.


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