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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:50 am 
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Failing? Nah, we're killing it...

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:51 am 
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Thomas wrote:
Shrekles wrote:
That is an interesting read with some good points and suggestions - a transfer system would be awesome to see.

However, one thing he doesn't discuss is failings in selection - players like Nadolo, Samu and Mike Alalatoa were all discarded by Australian teams and have gone on to show that they are at lease excellent Super rugby players.


From all reports, Nadolo was a lazy, fat bloke when he finished school and didn't apply himself. That's why he didn't appear on any junior development radars. In saying that, this is a bloke who was developed and nurtured by the QLD system. As was Pocock. As was O'Connor. As was Ioane who was poached by the Force because the Reds didn't want him.

All four of them were discarded by the Qld Reds system (Ioane returned and so did O'Connor...I guess if you could call it that).


That was more a case of the need for a 4th super team. The Reds had Croft, Roe, etc in the backrow and so pocock wouldnt have got a game. Instead he went to Perth and quickly made the Wallabies. If he had stayed in QLD, he would have taken a few years to even make the Reds, and in that time may have left rugby. Ditto for Ioane and Beiber. They would have eventually made it, but we ran the risk of them leaving before they had for greener pastures. Others like Hodgson bloomed late, and would have been lost to Aus rugby had we not had the extra team.
Now we are reducing our number of teams and the same issue is going to start rearing its head. For example, Louwrena and Prior are both super rugby quality but dont have a province to play for (so stuck with the Force).


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:55 am 
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Farva wrote:
That was more a case of the need for a 4th super team. The Reds had Croft, Roe, etc in the backrow and so pocock wouldnt have got a game. Instead he went to Perth and quickly made the Wallabies. If he had stayed in QLD, he would have taken a few years to even make the Reds, and in that time may have left rugby. Ditto for Ioane and Beiber. They would have eventually made it, but we ran the risk of them leaving before they had for greener pastures. Others like Hodgson bloomed late, and would have been lost to Aus rugby had we not had the extra team.
Now we are reducing our number of teams and the same issue is going to start rearing its head. For example, Louwrena and Prior are both super rugby quality but dont have a province to play for (so stuck with the Force).


No. Come on, we are still struggling for depth, there's a lot of deadwood in our teams still.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:55 am 
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We definitely have enough players to support five teams... our squads are over stacked with talented players right now.

However, the coaches... :(


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:03 am 
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Slim 293 wrote:
We definitely have enough players to support five teams... our squads are over stacked with talented players right now.

However, the coaches... :(


I dont even think the coaches are poor. Its just that they are green. Get them up through a decent system coaching NPC, etc and we would see a big turnaround.
I dont agree that we dont have the players for 5 teams. There are some key positions we are weak in (2, 8, 10) but we should be getting some kiwis or saffers to move here and fill those on the back of a long term contract to gain residency and play for us.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:06 am 
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Farva wrote:
Slim 293 wrote:
We definitely have enough players to support five teams... our squads are over stacked with talented players right now.

However, the coaches... :(


I dont even think the coaches are poor. Its just that they are green. Get them up through a decent system coaching NPC, etc and we would see a big turnaround.
I dont agree that we dont have the players for 5 teams. There are some key positions we are weak in (2, 8, 10) but we should be getting some kiwis or saffers to move here and fill those on the back of a long term contract to gain residency and play for us.


Disagree. Its not just the match day 23 either, you need a strong squad. Look at the depth any of the NZ teams have, even the Blues. We are not a patch on that.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:09 am 
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Farva wrote:
Slim 293 wrote:
We definitely have enough players to support five teams... our squads are over stacked with talented players right now.

However, the coaches... :(


I dont even think the coaches are poor. Its just that they are green. Get them up through a decent system coaching NPC, etc and we would see a big turnaround.
I dont agree that we dont have the players for 5 teams. There are some key positions we are weak in (2, 8, 10) but we should be getting some kiwis or saffers to move here and fill those on the back of a long term contract to gain residency and play for us.



We're definitely weak at 10, but there's plenty of young talent coming through at 2 and especially 8 at the moment who are performing strongly.

At the moment the Sunwolves appear to be the best coached team in the Aussie conference.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:15 am 
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Sensible Stephen wrote:
Farva wrote:
Slim 293 wrote:
We definitely have enough players to support five teams... our squads are over stacked with talented players right now.

However, the coaches... :(


I dont even think the coaches are poor. Its just that they are green. Get them up through a decent system coaching NPC, etc and we would see a big turnaround.
I dont agree that we dont have the players for 5 teams. There are some key positions we are weak in (2, 8, 10) but we should be getting some kiwis or saffers to move here and fill those on the back of a long term contract to gain residency and play for us.


Disagree. Its not just the match day 23 either, you need a strong squad. Look at the depth any of the NZ teams have, even the Blues. We are not a patch on that.



Nah, there are plenty of Super Rugby quality starters not even getting a run at the Brumbies and the Rebels in particular...

Those lack of opportunities will eventually just push them overseas and then the squads will be weaker.

We could cut our teams down to two and they'd still be shit.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:39 am 
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kiap wrote:
Thomas wrote:
It pulls no punches. that's for certain.

Gets a few things wrong, too.

But I won't besmirch the whole piece. Some good points well made.


I agree, some good points and some wrong points.

One point I particularly have issue with is the format, and midnight kick-offs. I'm sorry but Rugby sides who have a more domestic tournament, where foreign fans can meet and kick-offs are at TV friendly times are doing better, as is Oz sports when the focus is the domestic leagues. It does matter.

Saying it was never an issue before ignores the fact it's been a long term build-up. European clubs have more money because they have built -up their fan bases over professionalism, Super rugby sides are losing fans. Hence the ever increasing pull of European Rugby. Midnight games, constant foreign away games stunt fan interest. The last thing you want in a competitive area. The complete lack of competitive games against the kiwis is also diminishing fan interest.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:40 am 
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Slim 293 wrote:
Failing? Nah, we're killing it...

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This picture should be memed into ‘Miss me yet?’


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:51 am 
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Slim 293 wrote:

Nah, there are plenty of Super Rugby quality starters not even getting a run at the Brumbies and the Rebels in particular...

Those lack of opportunities will eventually just push them overseas and then the squads will be weaker.

We could cut our teams down to two and they'd still be shit.


Nah, if it was just shit coaching, we would have picked up a couple of wins against NZ sides due to pure talent overwhelming the situation.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:58 am 
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Thomas wrote:
Can agree that club rugby seems to be flourishing well. Both my boys play on Satuday and Sunday for their club and it's great to go down and see hundreds of kids have fun playing the game.

As an aside, a shout out to the feral parents from the Browns Plains Mets who cheered every time one of their players tackled one of my son's team mates around the neck. Shouting "that's what you get" and "smash him so he remembers not to run next time" at 10 year old kids who are lying prone on the ground in pain isn't cool. A special mention to the gold toothed lady in the NZ Warriors jersey who said "Shaddup ya bald cunt" to me in front of my wife and 6yo son when I took offence at a kid being kneed in the head.


Wasn't a "NZ crusaders shirt" so that's a bit of a step down ya bald c unt ;)

Not nice being kneed in the head tho


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:03 am 
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Sensible Stephen wrote:
Slim 293 wrote:

Nah, there are plenty of Super Rugby quality starters not even getting a run at the Brumbies and the Rebels in particular...

Those lack of opportunities will eventually just push them overseas and then the squads will be weaker.

We could cut our teams down to two and they'd still be shit.


Nah, if it was just shit coaching, we would have picked up a couple of wins against NZ sides due to pure talent overwhelming the situation.


Lining up the Tahs side, side by side agaist the Blues, the talent is clearly with the Tahs. And yet the Blues beat them.
We have the talent. We dont have the coaching to do it. I thought that was a big bit of the article. We play structured rugby and wont budge from that.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:40 am 
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Shrekles wrote:
That is an interesting read with some good points and suggestions - a transfer system would be awesome to see.

How would that work though? If a player is out of contract the union/club can't demand a fee for him as per the Bosman ruling.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:46 am 
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Farva wrote:

Lining up the Tahs side, side by side agaist the Blues, the talent is clearly with the Tahs. And yet the Blues beat them.
We have the talent. We dont have the coaching to do it. I thought that was a big bit of the article. We play structured rugby and wont budge from that.


That flies in the face of theusual argument about the Blues.. they're laden with more sheer talent than most other NZ sides, let alone the Tahs. Their problem is in not being able to harness that talent and turn in consistent performances. the word 'mercurial' could have been coined with them in mind.

Diego wrote:
Shrekles wrote:
That is an interesting read with some good points and suggestions - a transfer system would be awesome to see.

How would that work though? If a player is out of contract the union/club can't demand a fee for him as per the Bosman ruling.


I'm sure the excellent minds employed by WR could come up with a ruling covering that. Let's call it rewriting the regulations.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 3:21 pm 
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How would that work though? If a player is out of contract the union/club can't demand a fee for him as per the Bosman ruling.


Exactly with the IRB based in Dublin and being an EU regulation it wouldn't work as the player is a free agent. Yet it is continually suggested without understanding the consequences.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:17 pm 
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Brumby_in_Vic wrote:
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How would that work though? If a player is out of contract the union/club can't demand a fee for him as per the Bosman ruling.


Exactly with the IRB based in Dublin and being an EU regulation it wouldn't work as the player is a free agent. Yet it is continually suggested without understanding the consequences.


It's called something different but that's effectively what happens in ice hockey per an agreement between the IIHF, NHL, and most of the good hockey countries (Russia grumbled a bit at the time and either have their own agreement with the NHL or got paid more if I recall correctly). IIHF are based in Switzerland though if that matters.

Super Rugby should just be ended. I suspect it'll happen when the TV contracts allow it to.

As far as the talent, I thought the comments from Rod Kafer and on Quade Cooper and Taqele Naiyaravoro were pretty damning.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 9:16 pm 
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Flyin Ryan wrote:
It's called something different but that's effectively what happens in ice hockey per an agreement between the IIHF, NHL, and most of the good hockey countries (Russia grumbled a bit at the time and either have their own agreement with the NHL or got paid more if I recall correctly). IIHF are based in Switzerland though if that matters.

Interesting.

Flyin Ryan wrote:
Super Rugby should just be ended. I suspect it'll happen when the TV contracts allow it to.

It really should.

Flyin Ryan wrote:
As far as the talent, I thought the comments from Rod Kafer and on Quade Cooper and Taqele Naiyaravoro were pretty damning.

Both talented players but with noticeable deficiencies in their games.

It's an indictment on the Australian system that you don't see at Test level, for example, in NZ where players that make it that far have a more all-round skill set. (Although obviously Taqele was a young Fijian who came up through the Rugby League route in Australia - so he wasn't on the ARU pathway).

But, really, the player depth across all of SANZAAR has been hollowed out. It's just more noticeable in Australia (and also to an extent, South Africa) where the base wasn't as strong to start with.

New Zealand shouldn't be getting too smug about that for too long, however. To borrow a line from Rutchie himself, they'll get their beans. This bugbear will be appearing on the NZR radar.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 12:15 am 
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grievous wrote:
ARU have more numbers than now than largest oz club at 140 employees. Whats that....4 senior teams and 4 colt teams
Says it a lot ...what do they do?




New Zealand Rugby has 120 employees. That's four senior teams and 3 colts sides. Is that okay?


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 1:11 am 
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Anybody who thinks rugby is healthy hasn’t seen the Perth comp recently. Standard has dropped dramatically. Also, there are 6 colts teams in the entire state. Pulling the Force pulled the heart out of the game over here. If it wasn’t for Twiggy and a couple of dedicated sponsors at the grassroots level you might as well shut the doors.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 1:16 am 
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So are you saying that it was healthy a year or two ago, and that all the changes are down to dropping the Force?


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 1:21 am 
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wamberal99 wrote:
So are you saying that it was healthy a year or two ago, and that all the changes are down to dropping the Force?

Playing numbers and interest is dramatically down in the traditional clubs year on year. Some teams dropped two entire grades from competitions. There is no 5th grade whatsoever this year. Some Force players have already decided it’s not worth hanging around for, and are exploring options elsewhere.

Junior rugby looks promising with the backing of the Mindaroo foundation, but that’s Twiggy.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 1:35 am 
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And all this happened in the last twelve months? A bit hard to believe that the game fell in a heap so quickly.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 1:39 am 
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wamberal99 wrote:
And all this happened in the last twelve months? A bit hard to believe that the game fell in a heap so quickly.

Every club fielded at least one team more last season. That’s pretty dramatic retraction in numbers. Lots of those clubs only had 4 teams and no colts. A loss of 25% in places.

Lots of the better players have gone to Sydney or the UK now the pathway is gone, so the overall quality has dropped in the Prem grade.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 1:52 am 
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Brumby_in_Vic wrote:
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How would that work though? If a player is out of contract the union/club can't demand a fee for him as per the Bosman ruling.


Exactly with the IRB based in Dublin and being an EU regulation it wouldn't work as the player is a free agent. Yet it is continually suggested without understanding the consequences.


Seems to work in soccer. Is that because that sport is based in Switzerland?


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 1:56 am 
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SFBB wrote:
wamberal99 wrote:
And all this happened in the last twelve months? A bit hard to believe that the game fell in a heap so quickly.

Every club fielded at least one team more last season. That’s pretty dramatic retraction in numbers. Lots of those clubs only had 4 teams and no colts. A loss of 25% in places.

Lots of the better players have gone to Sydney or the UK now the pathway is gone, so the overall quality has dropped in the Prem grade.



Okay, that is a bit more realistic. Obviously the game will suffer. But don't forget that when the Force was admitted, the Victorians were expecting to get in. The game survived there, it still survives wherever there are people who enjoy it, it is a different beast to the other local codes. Great to play, great people. That does not change.


The game was in Perth a long time before Super Rugby. I worked with a bloke in Sydney who represented Western Australia against the All Blacks, he would have been playing in the early sixties. They got beaten by a lot, but the game survived.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 1:59 am 
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Oh well, that's alright then.

hidey hi, hidey ho.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:08 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
Oh well, that's alright then.

hidey hi, hidey ho.



I am not saying everything is "all right". I am just trying to see if we can have a sensible, constructive, debate about the real issues. With some informed and thoughtful input.


Hidey hi, hidey ho.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:11 am 
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wamberal99 wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
Oh well, that's alright then.

hidey hi, hidey ho.



I am not saying everything is "all right". I am just trying to see if we can have a sensible, constructive, debate about the real issues. With some informed and thoughtful input.


Hidey hi, hidey ho.


Well, the real issues centre on the ARU or RA destroying a viable rugby scene in WA.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:26 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
wamberal99 wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
Oh well, that's alright then.

hidey hi, hidey ho.



I am not saying everything is "all right". I am just trying to see if we can have a sensible, constructive, debate about the real issues. With some informed and thoughtful input.


Hidey hi, hidey ho.


Well, the real issues centre on the ARU or RA destroying a viable rugby scene in WA.



If you believe that the Force fiasco is the root cause of what is wrong with the game in Australia, there is no point debating with you.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:31 am 
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wamberal99 wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
wamberal99 wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
Oh well, that's alright then.

hidey hi, hidey ho.



I am not saying everything is "all right". I am just trying to see if we can have a sensible, constructive, debate about the real issues. With some informed and thoughtful input.


Hidey hi, hidey ho.


Well, the real issues centre on the ARU or RA destroying a viable rugby scene in WA.



If you believe that the Force fiasco is the root cause of what is wrong with the game in Australia, there is no point debating with you.



That exchange sums up the difficulties we face in trying to reach an understanding.

You have essentially reversed the meaning of what I said.

The 'root cause' is the management of the game and you seem to spend your time in these 'debates' defending them and deflecting blame.

They have destroyed over a decade's worth of work and passion in a decent rugby state. The Force fiasco wasn't the 'root cause', it's a symptom.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:39 am 
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Wamberal, are you denying the RA board destroyed the Force as a favour to their mates in Victoria?


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 3:04 am 
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wamberal99 wrote:
grievous wrote:
ARU have more numbers than now than largest oz club at 140 employees. Whats that....4 senior teams and 4 colt teams
Says it a lot ...what do they do?




New Zealand Rugby has 120 employees. That's four senior teams and 3 colts sides. Is that okay?

There're winning you fool! And with less even worse


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 3:07 am 
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wamberal99 wrote:
SFBB wrote:
wamberal99 wrote:
And all this happened in the last twelve months? A bit hard to believe that the game fell in a heap so quickly.

Every club fielded at least one team more last season. That’s pretty dramatic retraction in numbers. Lots of those clubs only had 4 teams and no colts. A loss of 25% in places.

Lots of the better players have gone to Sydney or the UK now the pathway is gone, so the overall quality has dropped in the Prem grade.



Okay, that is a bit more realistic. Obviously the game will suffer. But don't forget that when the Force was admitted, the Victorians were expecting to get in. The game survived there, it still survives wherever there are people who enjoy it, it is a different beast to the other local codes. Great to play, great people. That does not change.


The game was in Perth a long time before Super Rugby. I worked with a bloke in Sydney who represented Western Australia against the All Blacks, he would have been playing in the early sixties. They got beaten by a lot, but the game survived.

Oh those good ol days....like it was yestercentury


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 5:04 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
wamberal99 wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
Oh well, that's alright then.

hidey hi, hidey ho.



I am not saying everything is "all right". I am just trying to see if we can have a sensible, constructive, debate about the real issues. With some informed and thoughtful input.


Hidey hi, hidey ho.


Well, the real issues centre on the ARU or RA destroying a viable rugby scene in WA.


that and do we want the wallabies to be competitive. Very sad that Eastwood have been forced to sell their ground and all the quality people have to find somewhere else to piss in each others pockets.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 5:33 am 
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wamberal99 wrote:
Brumby_in_Vic wrote:
Quote:
How would that work though? If a player is out of contract the union/club can't demand a fee for him as per the Bosman ruling.


Exactly with the IRB based in Dublin and being an EU regulation it wouldn't work as the player is a free agent. Yet it is continually suggested without understanding the consequences.


Seems to work in soccer. Is that because that sport is based in Switzerland?


No they only require transfer fees between clubs when on contract players are transferred.

When a player whose contract is due to expire at the end of the season and joins another club they go for free.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 5:43 am 
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Brumby_in_Vic wrote:
wamberal99 wrote:
Brumby_in_Vic wrote:
Quote:
How would that work though? If a player is out of contract the union/club can't demand a fee for him as per the Bosman ruling.


Exactly with the IRB based in Dublin and being an EU regulation it wouldn't work as the player is a free agent. Yet it is continually suggested without understanding the consequences.


Seems to work in soccer. Is that because that sport is based in Switzerland?


No they only require transfer fees between clubs when on contract players are transferred.

When a player whose contract is due to expire at the end of the season and joins another club they go for free.


So there are ways around that.

I understand players have to be free to negotiate their own employment so you write national contracts on terms that define and protect the national union's rights to be protected from player predation... and WR could easily set up regulations around the number of overseas developed players in the club system to protect national development pathways.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 5:49 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
Brumby_in_Vic wrote:
wamberal99 wrote:
Brumby_in_Vic wrote:
Quote:
How would that work though? If a player is out of contract the union/club can't demand a fee for him as per the Bosman ruling.


Exactly with the IRB based in Dublin and being an EU regulation it wouldn't work as the player is a free agent. Yet it is continually suggested without understanding the consequences.


Seems to work in soccer. Is that because that sport is based in Switzerland?


No they only require transfer fees between clubs when on contract players are transferred.

When a player whose contract is due to expire at the end of the season and joins another club they go for free.


So there are ways around that.

I understand players have to be free to negotiate their own employment so you write national contracts on terms that define and protect the national union's rights to be protected from player predation... and WR could easily set up regulations around the number of overseas developed players in the club system to protect national development pathways.


Not without it being a restraint of trade, and wouldn't fly in the EU anyway (and therefore the kolpak types uneffected)


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 5:51 am 
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Zakar wrote:

Not without it being a restraint of trade, and wouldn't fly in the EU anyway (and therefore the kolpak types uneffected)


dammit


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 5:52 am 
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guy smiley wrote:

So there are ways around that.

I understand players have to be free to negotiate their own employment so you write national contracts on terms that define and protect the national union's rights to be protected from player predation... and WR could easily set up regulations around the number of overseas developed players in the club system to protect national development pathways.


I get where you are coming from, but WR has no power to tell the English, French or Japanese clubs who they can and can't contract.

What would be needed is an agreement between the National bodies as well as Premiership Rugby, the Top 14 etc, on the global player market. I can't see that happening though.


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