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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 1:22 pm 
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The Neo-Nazi clothing label of choice in Germany, Thor Steiner, changed their logo to effectively the Norwegian flag after a courtcase a few years ago. There's some outdoor clothing brand which has used it much longer (from Norway) Nama something. Does that make people who wear Nama something clothes Nazis? Interesting tidbit - Thor Steiner went bankrupt and was bought by the Qatari royal family.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 1:22 pm 
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Mog The Almighty wrote:
La soule wrote:
Mog The Almighty wrote:
La soule wrote:
La soule wrote:
Which groupuscule has chosen the Thor's hammer as an emblem?


Since you Alt right edgy types can answer questions, I had to go on google my self. Pricks.

Here it is:

Quote:
Although its traditional origins are non-racist, and although most Asatruers today are not racist, the Thor's Hammer symbol has been appropriated by neo-Nazis and other white supremacists, especially those who practice racist or white supremacist versions of neo-Norse beliefs under the guise of Odinism or Wotanism. White supremacists will often even create racist versions of the Thor's Hammer, incorporating swastikas or other hate symbols into the decoration.


Well, this is the thing ... are they actually racist?

There is definitely a weird group that "pretends" to worship the old gods and tries to live their life according to those paganish beliefs, and they are proud of their ancestry. It's all about respect,honour, being powerful, pride in yourself and all that. But like I said, anything that is "proud of being Swedish" is considered racist here. So people who absolutely revel in their Swedishness and their Swedish ancestary are obviously "super racists", right? Well, maybe. But also maybe not.

Having said that, there are real racists in Sweden, just like there is everywhere. And I'm sure there is some of those "Odinism" type guys who are actually really racist. But I don't think it's the majority. I think mostly they're just weirdos.

I've listened a little bit to this guy, "The Golden One". Disclaimer: I am definitely not a right-wing nationalist, I've just listened to some of his videos more out of a kind of bizarre fascination. He's not stupid but he's pretty odd and he's a super-nationalist, Old-Gods, "modern Viking" type guy and he constantly gets called a racist by the Swedish media, etc. The thing is, I haven't actually heard him express any genuinely racist view. Which doesn't mean he hasn't or doesn't. It just means if he has, I haven't yet heard it. So is this what they're talking about when they say "white supremacist"? I dunno. Maybe. Maybe he is. He's definitely "different".

https://www.youtube.com/user/TheLatsbrah

(for size)
Spoiler: show
Image


I don't know. That's why I asked the question. The symbol, according to some random link on google, appear to have been adopted by racist/supremacist groups.

As mentioned by Tschussie, the same appropriation of symbols has happened in other locations. Which what those Swedes were most likely trying to tell you.


Well ... as I said, I think you're "sort of right". My question is only are they really "racist/supremacist groups", or is that just a label that's been unfairly applied? I also don't know the answer.

But yes, it's been adopted by those "worship the old gods" modern-pagan type guys, and their whole gig is making yourself "glorious and magnificent" in the eyes of the gods and being proud of your nation and your ancestary and all that. It's definitely "nationalist", and weird. They're unique humans for sure. They've adopted all the old pagan symbols and stuff. It's part of their "religion". But does that make them racist?

I hung a small Swedish flag in the window of my apartment when I first arrived here too, and was promptly warned that was extremely racist and to take it down (I moved it inside). So if hanging a flag is racist, you can imagine what being a weirdo ancestor-worshipping nationalist makes you in the eyes of the very socially progressive population of "normal people" in Sweden.


I am really sorry for not telling you what you want to hear.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 1:25 pm 
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http://www.spiegel.de/international/ger ... 87746.html
Quote:
Neo-Nazi Fashion: Thor Steinar and the Changing Look of the German Far Right
SPIEGEL ONLINE, Hamburg, Germany
7-9 minutes
November 20, 2008 10:23 AM

Lilian Engelmann never thought she would see neo-Nazis on her block. The young art curator works in a gallery in the trendy district of Mitte, a neighborhood in central Berlin. Her neighbors include an international cinema, designer hat store, Vietnamese restaurant and -- as of last February -- a store called Tönsberg, which sells clothing popular among right-wing extremists.

"By coming here, the neo-Nazis tried to come into the center of society," Engelmann told SPIEGEL ONLINE. Once local residents and shopowners learned that Tönsberg planned to sell the clothing brand Thor Steinar, they organized against the store. The group led by Engelmann and other shopowners called itself the "Mitte Initiative Against the Far Right," and mounted regular protests.

Neo-Nazis are a fringe group in Germany, where Holocaust denial, praise of Adolf Hitler and the display of Nazi symbols are all illegal. The Office for the Protection of the Constitution, the government's domestic intelligence agency, estimates there are about 40,000 active members of the German far right. The agency can shut down Kameradschaften, gangs or brotherhoods which tend to be violent, but many other groups in the neo-Nazi scene often fly under the legal radar -- like rock bands with suggestive lyrics or stylish clothing companies with coded symbols. As long as they don't display swastikas or explicitly support Hitler or his party, these groups are left alone.

Do These Sneakers Make Me Look Neo-Nazi?

Thor Steinar goods were banned in 2004 because of the logo's similarity to symbols worn by SS officers. But the company has rebranded, and its new look is legal. This presents a dilemma for Engelmann's group. Symbols and speech not obviously related to Nazism are protected by German law. So instead of trying to run the store out, her group decided to educate passersby about Tönsberg.

The group won permission from authorities in Mitte to set up a public display detailing the history of the Holocaust, the recent far right scene and neo-Nazi symbols and culture. Three tall boxes plastered with dossiers dot Rosa-Luxemburg Street in Berlin, where Engelmann's gallery stands near Tönsberg.

"We've had people come in and ask, 'If I buy these sneakers, are they sending neo-Nazi signals?'" said Engelmann. "People have a better idea of what kind of store it is."

"People" includes passersby, but also landlords. On Oct. 14, a Berlin court ruled that Tönsberg's landlord was allowed to kick the store out because Tönsberg had failed to fully disclose what types of products it would sell. A similar court decision on Oct. 28 will clear out a store selling Thor Steinar clothing in Magdeburg, a city in eastern Germany. A Hamburg store shut down in early October after protests. Three further stores in Germany sell Thor Steinar goods, but a legal decision on one of them, in Leipzig, is pending.

The brand also stirred a recent controversy in Berlin after a plainclothes policeman wore a Thor Steinar shirt while on duty at a demonstration to mark the anniversary of Kristallnacht -- the Nazi-orchestrated pogroms that swept Germany on November 9, 1938. Dieter Glietsch, head of police in Berlin, said ignorance of the brand was not an excuse. "That a police officer walks around wearing Thor Steinar clothes during the anniversary of the pogrom calls for a thorough investigation," he told the Tagesspiegel newspaper. "It is not as if in Berlin people don't know what the label stands for."

Still, the far right isn't as recognizable as it used to be. Only old-school neo-Nazis shave their heads and tie up their black boots with white laces. Among the younger crowd, a new look is in. Even Engelmann describes Thor Steinar designs as "stylish and fitted," and sometimes its logos are all that set it apart from other casual sportswear.

Mixed Messages

Many of the symbols are straightforward. On one Thor Steinar T-shirt, the word kontaktfreudig is splashed across red splotches that look like spatters of blood. The word could be translated as "outgoing," or more literally, "happy to make contact." The display on Rosa-Luxemburg Street includes clothing with common symbols like an eagle for German pride, or "18" and "88" for "Adolf Hitler" and "Heil Hitler" -- numbers freighted with meaning because of the position of the initials in the alphabet.

Some mainstream clothing companies also hold significance for neo-Nazis. Shirts from the British company Lonsdale, covered in jackets unzipped to display the "NS" -- for National Socialism -- have a meaning in Germany that would go unnoticed in Britain or the United States. The German far right likes the "N" on New Balance shoes for the same reason.

But Thor Steinar is hardly a mainstream brand appropriated by a few extreme customers. The German company "is demonstrably for the scene, by the scene," said Esther Lehnert at the Mobile Counseling Team Berlin, a non-profit that identifies trends in the German far right. Part of Lehnert's job is to instruct teachers in how to identify and reach out to students who may become involved in neo-Nazism. She describes an alarming uptick in youth participation in what's become a "trendy culture."

"They are getting harder to spot," she said, taking a picture out of a folder showing far-right and far-left activists facing off at a march. Both groups wore Che Guevara T-shirts and checked scarves -- long a leftist symbol of solidarity with Palestinians. But the far right co-opted both symbols, she explained, just as neo-Nazis have taken to wearing all black, which used to be an anarchist fashion statement.

Guevara may be the strangest appropriation of all. Neo-Nazis wear his image but don't hesitate to beat up people who look different -- including Latin Americans.

'It's Just a Fashion Label'

Neo-Nazis have been a long-term embarrassment for the German government, which had to beef up security during the 2006 World Cup because of safety concerns for non-white spectators and players. And Germany's domestic intelligence agency describes Thor Steinar as "an identifying mark for right-wing extremists." So why not simply shut the company down?

"It's just a fashion label," a spokesperson for the Office for the Protection of the Constitution told SPIEGEL ONLINE. "We are only watching which symbols they use, to make sure they are not illegal."

The agency has reason to be cautious after its implication in a disastrous effort to outlaw the far right National Democratic Party (NPD) in 2003. Germany's highest court dismissed the case after finding out that important witnesses for the prosecution -- including the NPD head for the state of North Rhine-Westphalia -- worked as informants for the agency. The Federal Constitutional Court ruled that it couldn't ban a party whose policies might have been cast, in part, by government agents.

So groups like Engelmann's are left the task of combating the scene on the local level, and making sure the public knows what neo-Nazis are doing. Thor Steinar has been kicked out of a number of locations, but there is no telling where they will crop up next.

"You just hope people know what is going on and have (local authorities) who are interested in supporting them like we had," said Engelmann. "Otherwise these people can just move right in, and no one says a word."


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 1:27 pm 
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La soule wrote:
As mentioned by Tschussie, the same appropriation of symbols has happened in other locations. Which is what those Swedes were most likely trying to tell you.

I cannot speak for Sweden but in Ireland any connection that the Celtic Cross may have to white supremacy in other parts of the world is not given a second thought (not given a first thought might be more accurate).

Image


Last edited by Tschussie on Thu May 24, 2018 1:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 1:28 pm 
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La soule wrote:
I am really sorry for not telling you what you want to hear.


Erm ... wot?

Did you think we were having some kind of argument? Sorry, I didn't realize.

I was just saying it's bizarre that Swedes will go out of their way to accomodate other - very questionable - cultures, but revelling in their own is considered "racist and white supremist".

I thought we were basically agreeing.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 1:33 pm 
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Tschussie wrote:
La soule wrote:
As mentioned by Tschussie, the same appropriation of symbols has happened in other locations. Which is what those Swedes were most likely trying to tell you.

I cannot speak for Sweden but in Ireland any connection that the Celtic Cross may have to white supremacy in other parts of the world is not given a second thought (a first thought might be more accurate).

Image


It would be silly and unfair if we had to catalogue every thing a Nazi wore, said, thought, read or ate on the basis that by a process of osmosis it too had become a Nazi thing. I know you're not advocating that. The list of actual Nazi things is likely very short indeed and pretty obvious.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 1:36 pm 
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Mog The Almighty wrote:
La soule wrote:
I am really sorry for not telling you what you want to hear.


Erm ... wot?

Did you think we were having some kind of argument? Sorry, I didn't realize.

I was just saying it's bizarre that Swedes will go out of their way to accomodate other - very questionable - cultures, but revelling in their own is considered "racist and white supremist".

I thought we were basically agreeing.


Not arguing. I just have this feeling that you want to hear that the hammer is not always linked to racist/supremacist group. I dont know if that is the case and, as those Swedes were trying to explain to you and according to the results of my quick google search, "evidences" appear to be pointing in the opposite direction.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 1:38 pm 
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pontifex wrote:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/neo-nazi-fashion-thor-steinar-and-the-changing-look-of-the-german-far-right-a-587746.html
Quote:
Neo-Nazi Fashion: Thor Steinar and the Changing Look of the German Far Right
SPIEGEL ONLINE, Hamburg, Germany
7-9 minutes
November 20, 2008 10:23 AM

Lilian Engelmann never thought she would see neo-Nazis on her block. The young art curator works in a gallery in the trendy district of Mitte, a neighborhood in central Berlin. Her neighbors include an international cinema, designer hat store, Vietnamese restaurant and -- as of last February -- a store called Tönsberg, which sells clothing popular among right-wing extremists.

"By coming here, the neo-Nazis tried to come into the center of society," Engelmann told SPIEGEL ONLINE. Once local residents and shopowners learned that Tönsberg planned to sell the clothing brand Thor Steinar, they organized against the store. The group led by Engelmann and other shopowners called itself the "Mitte Initiative Against the Far Right," and mounted regular protests.

Neo-Nazis are a fringe group in Germany, where Holocaust denial, praise of Adolf Hitler and the display of Nazi symbols are all illegal. The Office for the Protection of the Constitution, the government's domestic intelligence agency, estimates there are about 40,000 active members of the German far right. The agency can shut down Kameradschaften, gangs or brotherhoods which tend to be violent, but many other groups in the neo-Nazi scene often fly under the legal radar -- like rock bands with suggestive lyrics or stylish clothing companies with coded symbols. As long as they don't display swastikas or explicitly support Hitler or his party, these groups are left alone.

Do These Sneakers Make Me Look Neo-Nazi?

Thor Steinar goods were banned in 2004 because of the logo's similarity to symbols worn by SS officers. But the company has rebranded, and its new look is legal. This presents a dilemma for Engelmann's group. Symbols and speech not obviously related to Nazism are protected by German law. So instead of trying to run the store out, her group decided to educate passersby about Tönsberg.

The group won permission from authorities in Mitte to set up a public display detailing the history of the Holocaust, the recent far right scene and neo-Nazi symbols and culture. Three tall boxes plastered with dossiers dot Rosa-Luxemburg Street in Berlin, where Engelmann's gallery stands near Tönsberg.

"We've had people come in and ask, 'If I buy these sneakers, are they sending neo-Nazi signals?'" said Engelmann. "People have a better idea of what kind of store it is."

"People" includes passersby, but also landlords. On Oct. 14, a Berlin court ruled that Tönsberg's landlord was allowed to kick the store out because Tönsberg had failed to fully disclose what types of products it would sell. A similar court decision on Oct. 28 will clear out a store selling Thor Steinar clothing in Magdeburg, a city in eastern Germany. A Hamburg store shut down in early October after protests. Three further stores in Germany sell Thor Steinar goods, but a legal decision on one of them, in Leipzig, is pending.

The brand also stirred a recent controversy in Berlin after a plainclothes policeman wore a Thor Steinar shirt while on duty at a demonstration to mark the anniversary of Kristallnacht -- the Nazi-orchestrated pogroms that swept Germany on November 9, 1938. Dieter Glietsch, head of police in Berlin, said ignorance of the brand was not an excuse. "That a police officer walks around wearing Thor Steinar clothes during the anniversary of the pogrom calls for a thorough investigation," he told the Tagesspiegel newspaper. "It is not as if in Berlin people don't know what the label stands for."

Still, the far right isn't as recognizable as it used to be. Only old-school neo-Nazis shave their heads and tie up their black boots with white laces. Among the younger crowd, a new look is in. Even Engelmann describes Thor Steinar designs as "stylish and fitted," and sometimes its logos are all that set it apart from other casual sportswear.

Mixed Messages

Many of the symbols are straightforward. On one Thor Steinar T-shirt, the word kontaktfreudig is splashed across red splotches that look like spatters of blood. The word could be translated as "outgoing," or more literally, "happy to make contact." The display on Rosa-Luxemburg Street includes clothing with common symbols like an eagle for German pride, or "18" and "88" for "Adolf Hitler" and "Heil Hitler" -- numbers freighted with meaning because of the position of the initials in the alphabet.

Some mainstream clothing companies also hold significance for neo-Nazis. Shirts from the British company Lonsdale, covered in jackets unzipped to display the "NS" -- for National Socialism -- have a meaning in Germany that would go unnoticed in Britain or the United States. The German far right likes the "N" on New Balance shoes for the same reason.

But Thor Steinar is hardly a mainstream brand appropriated by a few extreme customers. The German company "is demonstrably for the scene, by the scene," said Esther Lehnert at the Mobile Counseling Team Berlin, a non-profit that identifies trends in the German far right. Part of Lehnert's job is to instruct teachers in how to identify and reach out to students who may become involved in neo-Nazism. She describes an alarming uptick in youth participation in what's become a "trendy culture."

"They are getting harder to spot," she said, taking a picture out of a folder showing far-right and far-left activists facing off at a march. Both groups wore Che Guevara T-shirts and checked scarves -- long a leftist symbol of solidarity with Palestinians. But the far right co-opted both symbols, she explained, just as neo-Nazis have taken to wearing all black, which used to be an anarchist fashion statement.

Guevara may be the strangest appropriation of all. Neo-Nazis wear his image but don't hesitate to beat up people who look different -- including Latin Americans.

'It's Just a Fashion Label'

Neo-Nazis have been a long-term embarrassment for the German government, which had to beef up security during the 2006 World Cup because of safety concerns for non-white spectators and players. And Germany's domestic intelligence agency describes Thor Steinar as "an identifying mark for right-wing extremists." So why not simply shut the company down?

"It's just a fashion label," a spokesperson for the Office for the Protection of the Constitution told SPIEGEL ONLINE. "We are only watching which symbols they use, to make sure they are not illegal."

The agency has reason to be cautious after its implication in a disastrous effort to outlaw the far right National Democratic Party (NPD) in 2003. Germany's highest court dismissed the case after finding out that important witnesses for the prosecution -- including the NPD head for the state of North Rhine-Westphalia -- worked as informants for the agency. The Federal Constitutional Court ruled that it couldn't ban a party whose policies might have been cast, in part, by government agents.

So groups like Engelmann's are left the task of combating the scene on the local level, and making sure the public knows what neo-Nazis are doing. Thor Steinar has been kicked out of a number of locations, but there is no telling where they will crop up next.

"You just hope people know what is going on and have (local authorities) who are interested in supporting them like we had," said Engelmann. "Otherwise these people can just move right in, and no one says a word."


Just Googled that brand. Germans are not nordic and they're definitely not Norweigan. I'm calling cultural appropriation on that brand! How dare they!!

FWIW, I think it's a bit rich to say a shop or a brand is "neo nazi" because some neo nazis like the wear it, or shop there. The brand just has lots of Viking type stuff on it, it's not as if it's covered in r swastikas and shit. It's not their fault if neo nazis fancy wearing Viking type shit.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 1:38 pm 
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What's interesting is just how much the German Antifa groups have appropriated neo-Nazi motifs and symbols, especially the fetishisation of violence. I went to an Antifa bar recently, and they had lots of posters for concerts etc. The band names were mostly things like "Punch in the face" and "Meet my fist" etc.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 1:39 pm 
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Mog The Almighty wrote:
pontifex wrote:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/neo-nazi-fashion-thor-steinar-and-the-changing-look-of-the-german-far-right-a-587746.html
Quote:
Neo-Nazi Fashion: Thor Steinar and the Changing Look of the German Far Right
SPIEGEL ONLINE, Hamburg, Germany
7-9 minutes
November 20, 2008 10:23 AM

Lilian Engelmann never thought she would see neo-Nazis on her block. The young art curator works in a gallery in the trendy district of Mitte, a neighborhood in central Berlin. Her neighbors include an international cinema, designer hat store, Vietnamese restaurant and -- as of last February -- a store called Tönsberg, which sells clothing popular among right-wing extremists.

"By coming here, the neo-Nazis tried to come into the center of society," Engelmann told SPIEGEL ONLINE. Once local residents and shopowners learned that Tönsberg planned to sell the clothing brand Thor Steinar, they organized against the store. The group led by Engelmann and other shopowners called itself the "Mitte Initiative Against the Far Right," and mounted regular protests.

Neo-Nazis are a fringe group in Germany, where Holocaust denial, praise of Adolf Hitler and the display of Nazi symbols are all illegal. The Office for the Protection of the Constitution, the government's domestic intelligence agency, estimates there are about 40,000 active members of the German far right. The agency can shut down Kameradschaften, gangs or brotherhoods which tend to be violent, but many other groups in the neo-Nazi scene often fly under the legal radar -- like rock bands with suggestive lyrics or stylish clothing companies with coded symbols. As long as they don't display swastikas or explicitly support Hitler or his party, these groups are left alone.

Do These Sneakers Make Me Look Neo-Nazi?

Thor Steinar goods were banned in 2004 because of the logo's similarity to symbols worn by SS officers. But the company has rebranded, and its new look is legal. This presents a dilemma for Engelmann's group. Symbols and speech not obviously related to Nazism are protected by German law. So instead of trying to run the store out, her group decided to educate passersby about Tönsberg.

The group won permission from authorities in Mitte to set up a public display detailing the history of the Holocaust, the recent far right scene and neo-Nazi symbols and culture. Three tall boxes plastered with dossiers dot Rosa-Luxemburg Street in Berlin, where Engelmann's gallery stands near Tönsberg.

"We've had people come in and ask, 'If I buy these sneakers, are they sending neo-Nazi signals?'" said Engelmann. "People have a better idea of what kind of store it is."

"People" includes passersby, but also landlords. On Oct. 14, a Berlin court ruled that Tönsberg's landlord was allowed to kick the store out because Tönsberg had failed to fully disclose what types of products it would sell. A similar court decision on Oct. 28 will clear out a store selling Thor Steinar clothing in Magdeburg, a city in eastern Germany. A Hamburg store shut down in early October after protests. Three further stores in Germany sell Thor Steinar goods, but a legal decision on one of them, in Leipzig, is pending.

The brand also stirred a recent controversy in Berlin after a plainclothes policeman wore a Thor Steinar shirt while on duty at a demonstration to mark the anniversary of Kristallnacht -- the Nazi-orchestrated pogroms that swept Germany on November 9, 1938. Dieter Glietsch, head of police in Berlin, said ignorance of the brand was not an excuse. "That a police officer walks around wearing Thor Steinar clothes during the anniversary of the pogrom calls for a thorough investigation," he told the Tagesspiegel newspaper. "It is not as if in Berlin people don't know what the label stands for."

Still, the far right isn't as recognizable as it used to be. Only old-school neo-Nazis shave their heads and tie up their black boots with white laces. Among the younger crowd, a new look is in. Even Engelmann describes Thor Steinar designs as "stylish and fitted," and sometimes its logos are all that set it apart from other casual sportswear.

Mixed Messages

Many of the symbols are straightforward. On one Thor Steinar T-shirt, the word kontaktfreudig is splashed across red splotches that look like spatters of blood. The word could be translated as "outgoing," or more literally, "happy to make contact." The display on Rosa-Luxemburg Street includes clothing with common symbols like an eagle for German pride, or "18" and "88" for "Adolf Hitler" and "Heil Hitler" -- numbers freighted with meaning because of the position of the initials in the alphabet.

Some mainstream clothing companies also hold significance for neo-Nazis. Shirts from the British company Lonsdale, covered in jackets unzipped to display the "NS" -- for National Socialism -- have a meaning in Germany that would go unnoticed in Britain or the United States. The German far right likes the "N" on New Balance shoes for the same reason.

But Thor Steinar is hardly a mainstream brand appropriated by a few extreme customers. The German company "is demonstrably for the scene, by the scene," said Esther Lehnert at the Mobile Counseling Team Berlin, a non-profit that identifies trends in the German far right. Part of Lehnert's job is to instruct teachers in how to identify and reach out to students who may become involved in neo-Nazism. She describes an alarming uptick in youth participation in what's become a "trendy culture."

"They are getting harder to spot," she said, taking a picture out of a folder showing far-right and far-left activists facing off at a march. Both groups wore Che Guevara T-shirts and checked scarves -- long a leftist symbol of solidarity with Palestinians. But the far right co-opted both symbols, she explained, just as neo-Nazis have taken to wearing all black, which used to be an anarchist fashion statement.

Guevara may be the strangest appropriation of all. Neo-Nazis wear his image but don't hesitate to beat up people who look different -- including Latin Americans.

'It's Just a Fashion Label'

Neo-Nazis have been a long-term embarrassment for the German government, which had to beef up security during the 2006 World Cup because of safety concerns for non-white spectators and players. And Germany's domestic intelligence agency describes Thor Steinar as "an identifying mark for right-wing extremists." So why not simply shut the company down?

"It's just a fashion label," a spokesperson for the Office for the Protection of the Constitution told SPIEGEL ONLINE. "We are only watching which symbols they use, to make sure they are not illegal."

The agency has reason to be cautious after its implication in a disastrous effort to outlaw the far right National Democratic Party (NPD) in 2003. Germany's highest court dismissed the case after finding out that important witnesses for the prosecution -- including the NPD head for the state of North Rhine-Westphalia -- worked as informants for the agency. The Federal Constitutional Court ruled that it couldn't ban a party whose policies might have been cast, in part, by government agents.

So groups like Engelmann's are left the task of combating the scene on the local level, and making sure the public knows what neo-Nazis are doing. Thor Steinar has been kicked out of a number of locations, but there is no telling where they will crop up next.

"You just hope people know what is going on and have (local authorities) who are interested in supporting them like we had," said Engelmann. "Otherwise these people can just move right in, and no one says a word."


Just Googled that brand. Germans are not nordic and they're definitely not Norweigan. I'm calling cultural appropriation on that brand! How dare they!!

FWIW, I think it's a bit rich to say a shop or a brand is "neo nazi" because some neo nazis like the wear it, or shop there. The brand just has lots of Viking type stuff on it, it's not as if it's covered in r swastikas and shit. It's not their fault if neo nazis fancy wearing Viking type shit.

I think Thor Steinar goes well beyond simply being adopted by the scene. They are (or were), as far as I know, an active part of it. New Balance, on the other hand :lol: . I came here with a pair of NB running shoes. I wear Asics now.


Last edited by pontifex on Thu May 24, 2018 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 1:39 pm 
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pontifex wrote:
What's interesting is just how much the German Antifa groups have appropriated neo-Nazi motifs and symbols, especially the fetishisation of violence. I went to an Antifa bar recently, and they had lots of posters for concerts etc. The band names were mostly things like "Punch in the face" and "Meet my fist" etc.

I have noticed these posters too. :o


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 1:41 pm 
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La soule wrote:
Mog The Almighty wrote:
La soule wrote:
I am really sorry for not telling you what you want to hear.


Erm ... wot?

Did you think we were having some kind of argument? Sorry, I didn't realize.

I was just saying it's bizarre that Swedes will go out of their way to accomodate other - very questionable - cultures, but revelling in their own is considered "racist and white supremist".

I thought we were basically agreeing.


Not arguing. I just have this feeling that you want to hear that the hammer is not always linked to racist/supremacist group. I dont know if that is the case and, as those Swedes were trying to explain to you and according to the results of my quick google search, "evidences" appear to be pointing in the opposite direction.


Well, of course it's "not always" linked to a racist/supremist group. Unless the Birka open-air museum gift shop where I bought it is racist/supremist.

TBH, I often just wear the thing anyway and if people think an Italian/Latvian Australian living in Sweden is "racist" for wearing a thor's hammer amulet, then they're f-cking idiots and I don't care what they think.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 1:41 pm 
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Tschussie wrote:
pontifex wrote:
What's interesting is just how much the German Antifa groups have appropriated neo-Nazi motifs and symbols, especially the fetishisation of violence. I went to an Antifa bar recently, and they had lots of posters for concerts etc. The band names were mostly things like "Punch in the face" and "Meet my fist" etc.

I have noticed these posters too. :o

:lol: :thumbup: I'm going to document the violent posters and graffiti around here before I leave.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 2:46 pm 
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pontifex wrote:
Cultural appropriation can be a thing. A funny example is the American appropriation of Ugg boots, which then made them far more popular in Australia. Meanwhile, an American company, Ugg Australia TM, sued traditional Ugg boot manufacturers in Australia over their use of the word Ugg, which they had trademarked. That's a pretty trivial, but also fairly brazen example of how cultural appropriation can be less than a nice form of flattery. That said, the comment by Langan would equally apply in this sphere. If European cultural products were to be defended against appropriators from other cultures, then we'd be in all kinds of funny, annoying trouble.

Sort of related to this-

I have no issue whatsoever with other countries and cultures taking a full part in Halloween, celebrating it without acknowledgement of its origins or the non-payment of royalty fees.

However, it does irk me when many people discover that the Irish also celebrate the day to hear it directly suggested, or (and perhaps this is only in my fevered paranoid mind) indirectly implied that we only do so as a result of having become an Americanised society.


BTW I am not claiming the festival solely for Ireland but include the rest of the British Isles as founding members.


Last edited by Tschussie on Thu May 24, 2018 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 2:52 pm 
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Tschussie wrote:
pontifex wrote:
Cultural appropriation can be a thing. A funny example is the American appropriation of Ugg boots, which then made them far more popular in Australia. Meanwhile, an American company, Ugg Australia TM, sued traditional Ugg boot manufacturers in Australia over their use of the word Ugg, which they had trademarked. That's a pretty trivial, but also fairly brazen example of how cultural appropriation can be less than a nice form of flattery. That said, the comment by Langan would equally apply in this sphere. If European cultural products were to be defended against appropriators from other cultures, then we'd be in all kinds of funny, annoying trouble.

Sort of related to this-

I have no issue whatsoever with other countries and cultures taking a full part in Halloween, celebrating it without acknowledgement of its origins or the non-payment of royalty fees.

However, it does irk me when many people discover that the Irish also celebrate the day to hear it directly suggested, or (and perhaps this is only in my fevered paranoid mind) indirectly implied that we only do so as a result of having become an Americanised society.

Well, Halloween was celebrated differently in different places. Germany, for instance, had the tradition of a lantern march, rather than dressing up. You still see it around sometimes. America probably adopted their Halloween celebrations from Germany originally. I think there's little doubt that it's more common to see an Americanised celebration of Halloween here now - a kind of reimportation of a variation of one's own traditions which supplants one's own traditions through an overbearing global cultural force. No idea about Ireland's traditions, obviously.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 2:54 pm 
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I thought it was pretty much accepted that Americans adopted their general Halloween of dressing up and going from door-to-door from the Scottish and Irish immigrants. I would say that, though.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 2:56 pm 
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One of the reasons I hold the positions I do, by the way, is that I love genuine cultural diversity. I see American cultural imperialism as a huge threat to that, and I see increasingly homogeneous cities across Europe and the world. I also see reactionary movements like radical Islam as a response to American cultural imperialism - you only have to read Qutb, or what they're saying now, to see that.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 2:57 pm 
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Tschussie wrote:
I thought it was pretty much accepted that Americans adopted their general Halloween of dressing up and going from door-to-door from the Scottish and Irish immigrants. I would say that, though.

Was just a guess. Based on the fact (or something I read somewhere, once) that the largest single ethnic identity of contemporary white Americans is German (I think).


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:06 pm 
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There was even murmers that Exeter Chiefs is racist because of all the singing antics that apparently appropriates the Red Indians


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:13 pm 
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pontifex wrote:
One of the reasons I hold the positions I do, by the way, is that I love genuine cultural diversity. I see American cultural imperialism as a huge threat to that, and I see increasingly homogeneous cities across Europe and the world. I also see reactionary movements like radical Islam as a response to American cultural imperialism - you only have to read Qutb, or what they're saying now, to see that.


Yeah, I agree totally with this.

I love cultural diversity too. I can't stand that everything's becoming so Americanised. It annoys the grumpy-old-man me to see young Swedish kids dressed up and acting like American rappers and shit. You're a Swedish kid living in the far north of the world in a very privilidged, rich society. You have virtually nothing at all to do with American rap culture.

It's that kind of thing that does make me a little sympathetic with Mr. "The Golden One" and his similar guys who really want to preserve their own culture. I want them to preserve their own culture too. For my own selfish reasons, I will admit. If I come to Sweden I want to revel in Swedishness for a bit. It's boring that the whole western world are morphing into the same thing. I have nothing against American culture, FWIW. But I'd like it to stay in America.

Similar thing happening in Australia both in the country and the city. In the city, they're all dressed up like R'n'B or rap artists they see on TV, just like every other western city it seems. But in the country, especially in central Queensland, they're all dressing up like f'n cowboys. Complete with the huge heeled boots and cowboy hats (and I mean a proper cowboy hat, not an Akubra). FFS they even fake an American country accent when they sing their country songs. And the dumb f-cks think that they're "super true blue Aussie". Yeah right. About as Aussie as Garth Brooks. In other words, not at all.

All the immigration annoys me too, for just the same as above. I want to experience a foreign culture when I go on holiday or overseas. The fact that Sweden seems to be 50% middle-eastern is just as annoying to me as if I went to Iran, which I hear is absolutely beautiful and the people are wonderful and friendly, and it was swamped with Western people and Western culture.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:23 pm 
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englishchief wrote:
There was even murmers that Exeter Chiefs is racist because of all the singing antics that apparently appropriates the Red Indians

Paleface.
I believe a more acceptable term for the indigenous of that land may be Native Americans however I am aware there is some debate about this.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:24 pm 
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Mog:
https://www.nytimes.com/1979/10/07/arch ... meini.html

Quote:
FALLACI: Yes, Imam, but the airplane that brought you back to your country is a product of the West — even the telephone that you use to communicate with, from Qum, even the television set that you so often use to convey messages to the country, even this airconditioner, which permits you to remain cool in this desert. If we are so corrupt and so corrupting, why do you use our evil tools?

KHOMEINI: Because these are the good things from the West. And we are not afraid to use them, and we do. We are not afraid of your science and of your technology. We are afraid of your ideas and of your customs. Which means that we fear you politically and socially. And we want this to be our country. We do not want you to interfere anymore in our politics and our economy, in our habits, our affairs. And from now on, we will go against anyone who tries to interfere — from the right or from the left, from here or from there. And now that's enough. Go away. Go away.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:30 pm 
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Mog The Almighty wrote:

Ugh. Don't get me started. "Cultural appropriation" is such bullshit. Maoris should be happy that people want to adopt their culture. She's married to a Maori man, she wants to adopt his culture. She thinks it's cool. "No, that's only for our racial group". GTFO. If you're not mocking another culture, then it's fine. F-ck me, even if you are mocking another culture it's fine (although be prepared for a righteous punch to the face if you do).

I've heard of much worse examples than that though. Like people complaing about white girls wearing loop-earings because it's "cultural appropriation". Probably the dumbest one was some bunch of knob-jockey SJW's protesting about cultural appropriation because some white people were having a Japaense tea party in kimonos and shit as part of some festival or something (I can't remember exactly). When the Japanese were actually asked about it, they said they thought it was fantastic that western people wanted to adopt and share their culture.

It genuinely worries me how f-cking stupid people are and where it's going to lead western society over the next century.


Is this kind of cultural appropriation fine as well?

http://www.dallasobserver.com/restauran ... s-10439392

'There’s the ludicrously tasteless “Misohawni” Asian-fusion shop in Johannesburg, South Africa — a name for which the two white owners have had to apologize profusely. The restaurant is riffing off of the “me so horny” line in Full Metal Jacket, said by a Vietnamese sex worker. It’s funny, right? Take a joke! But really, the line has since been used to propagate harmful stereotypes about Asian women and to perpetuate their sexual objectification. And the menu, in no surprise, is a disjointed, ill-informed trio of Japanese ramen, Korean barbecue and Hawaiian poke. Bamboozle, in New Zealand, is another problematic hellscape, which serves up uninspired dishes like “Chirri Garrick and Prawn Dumpring,” “Yummi Mami Sarad,” and (here’s the kicker) “Luff U’long Time Phat Thai.” If it sounds like a totally juvenile, racist jab at Asian accents, it’s because it is. Bamboozle, like Misohawni, wants to capitalize on Asian food while mocking, disrespecting and exploiting its creators. We’re not a gimmick, we’re not a punchline, and we’re not children you can tease in the cafeteria. The fact that both of these restaurants have made it this far past conception, that no one was able to shut these ideas down, is a bold slap in the face and a painful reminder that in fact, maybe we still are.'

Exploiting a sexualised and degraded western depiction of 'Asian' culture and people that was propagated by the West for commercial gain, get pass points for being 'edgy' and humourous. Then hide behind the guise of 'my Asian wife/girlfriend/dog/friend/sex slave' doesn't find it offensive.

Btw the prom dress is Chinese not Japanese so good job there Mog. Cultural appropriation is more likely to be seen as problematic by Asians born in the West because they're the ones who were mocked in schools for looking different, were called chink or had people pulling their eyes in racist gestures, had their parents accents and culture mocked and were told that their native Asian foods were stinky or weird. They were made to drop that in order to 'assimilate'.

Furthermore on the subject of Alt-rightists, there's a staggering number of White Nationalists that are married to East/South East Asian women. They're complete hypocrites in advocating for a white ethnostate when their own children won't even be seen as White and they're by definition eliminating the white genepool.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/06/opin ... etish.html

Of course it takes two to tangle, Asian women have their own agency and are themselves complicit in choosing White nationalists/supremacists as partners but mainstream discourse seemingly hasn't yet evolved to call it out. Sometimes it's a case of escaping poverty but there are many cases of Asian women having internalised racism which causes them to view being Asian (East, South-East Asians) as lesser and having half white white children as an upgrade; quite frankly what could be described as an interracial eugenics ideology.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:46 pm 
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c69 wrote:
englishchief wrote:
There was even murmers that Exeter Chiefs is racist because of all the singing antics that apparently appropriates the Red Indians

Paleface.
I believe a more acceptable term for the indigenous of that land may be Native Americans however I am aware there is some debate about this.


Nothing dodgy at all about a bunch of white middle aged Englishmen dressing up in a Headdress with facepaint. If you were native American and saw a sports team in a different country adopting those kind of motifs as commercialised branding of your culture which has been nearly eroded to the point of extinction then you'd be just peachy. I'm sure there's nothing problematic about that at all. :uhoh:

There's no way they could have used traditional Britonic tribes motifs instead. Questionable depictions of Native Americans transplanted to the West coast of England is surely the way to go.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 4:05 pm 
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I would have thought that Native Americans had better things to worry about than a small rugby club/business thousands of miles away chanting and wearing headdresses.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 4:08 pm 
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fatcat wrote:
I would have thought that Native Americans had better things to worry about than a small rugby club/business thousands of miles away chanting and wearing headdresses.


You might think that, but I'm sure there are plenty of people with nothing better to do than worry about it on their behalf.

Naive stuff from Exeter and its going be yapping away at their arse for years.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 4:24 pm 
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pontifex wrote:
The Neo-Nazi clothing label of choice in Germany, Thor Steiner, changed their logo to effectively the Norwegian flag after a courtcase a few years ago. There's some outdoor clothing brand which has used it much longer (from Norway) Nama something. Does that make people who wear Nama something clothes Nazis? Interesting tidbit - Thor Steiner went bankrupt and was bought by the Qatari royal family.

Napapijri

http://www.napapijri.com/gb/?gclid=CIH9 ... &gclsrc=ds

One of my sons has some of their stuff and likes it. It is actually an Italian brand.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 4:48 pm 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
fatcat wrote:
I would have thought that Native Americans had better things to worry about than a small rugby club/business thousands of miles away chanting and wearing headdresses.


You might think that, but I'm sure there are plenty of people with nothing better to do than worry about it on their behalf.

Naive stuff from Exeter and its going be yapping away at their arse for years.


Nah, the backlash is coming. In the years to come honkies will be too scared to get offended on someone else's behalf, for fear of being ridiculed by normal people.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 5:32 pm 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
fatcat wrote:
I would have thought that Native Americans had better things to worry about than a small rugby club/business thousands of miles away chanting and wearing headdresses.


You might think that, but I'm sure there are plenty of people with nothing better to do than worry about it on their behalf.

Naive stuff from Exeter and its going be yapping away at their arse for years.


As the bored's foremost indigene I would say that almost no First Nations types will be monitoring this. It will be some PoMo PoCo homo mofo idling away on the internet in their shared Sociology/Cultural Studies department office. They might be of the blood and they might not.

Edit: Some of what I wrote was not a worthy basis for criticism. The stuff that remains is.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 5:46 pm 
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Santa wrote:
It would be silly and unfair if we had to catalogue every thing a Nazi wore, said, thought, read or ate on the basis that by a process of osmosis it too had become a Nazi thing. I know you're not advocating that. The list of actual Nazi things is likely very short indeed and pretty obvious.

Yeah, IIRC the SS lightning badges were celtic symbols co-opted and the Swastika was eastern European I think.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 5:48 pm 
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paddyor wrote:
Santa wrote:
It would be silly and unfair if we had to catalogue every thing a Nazi wore, said, thought, read or ate on the basis that by a process of osmosis it too had become a Nazi thing. I know you're not advocating that. The list of actual Nazi things is likely very short indeed and pretty obvious.

Yeah, IIRC the SS lightning badges were celtic symbols co-opted and the Swastika was eastern European I think.


I suggest to you that those are now proper Nazi things whatever their provenance.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 5:48 pm 
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World Class Phil wrote:
Mog The Almighty wrote:

Ugh. Don't get me started. "Cultural appropriation" is such bullshit. Maoris should be happy that people want to adopt their culture. She's married to a Maori man, she wants to adopt his culture. She thinks it's cool. "No, that's only for our racial group". GTFO. If you're not mocking another culture, then it's fine. F-ck me, even if you are mocking another culture it's fine (although be prepared for a righteous punch to the face if you do).

I've heard of much worse examples than that though. Like people complaing about white girls wearing loop-earings because it's "cultural appropriation". Probably the dumbest one was some bunch of knob-jockey SJW's protesting about cultural appropriation because some white people were having a Japaense tea party in kimonos and shit as part of some festival or something (I can't remember exactly). When the Japanese were actually asked about it, they said they thought it was fantastic that western people wanted to adopt and share their culture.

It genuinely worries me how f-cking stupid people are and where it's going to lead western society over the next century.


Is this kind of cultural appropriation fine as well?

http://www.dallasobserver.com/restauran ... s-10439392

'There’s the ludicrously tasteless “Misohawni” Asian-fusion shop in Johannesburg, South Africa — a name for which the two white owners have had to apologize profusely. The restaurant is riffing off of the “me so horny” line in Full Metal Jacket, said by a Vietnamese sex worker. It’s funny, right? Take a joke! But really, the line has since been used to propagate harmful stereotypes about Asian women and to perpetuate their sexual objectification. And the menu, in no surprise, is a disjointed, ill-informed trio of Japanese ramen, Korean barbecue and Hawaiian poke. Bamboozle, in New Zealand, is another problematic hellscape, which serves up uninspired dishes like “Chirri Garrick and Prawn Dumpring,” “Yummi Mami Sarad,” and (here’s the kicker) “Luff U’long Time Phat Thai.” If it sounds like a totally juvenile, racist jab at Asian accents, it’s because it is. Bamboozle, like Misohawni, wants to capitalize on Asian food while mocking, disrespecting and exploiting its creators. We’re not a gimmick, we’re not a punchline, and we’re not children you can tease in the cafeteria. The fact that both of these restaurants have made it this far past conception, that no one was able to shut these ideas down, is a bold slap in the face and a painful reminder that in fact, maybe we still are.'

Exploiting a sexualised and degraded western depiction of 'Asian' culture and people that was propagated by the West for commercial gain, get pass points for being 'edgy' and humourous. Then hide behind the guise of 'my Asian wife/girlfriend/dog/friend/sex slave' doesn't find it offensive.

Btw the prom dress is Chinese not Japanese so good job there Mog. Cultural appropriation is more likely to be seen as problematic by Asians born in the West because they're the ones who were mocked in schools for looking different, were called chink or had people pulling their eyes in racist gestures, had their parents accents and culture mocked and were told that their native Asian foods were stinky or weird. They were made to drop that in order to 'assimilate'.

Furthermore on the subject of Alt-rightists, there's a staggering number of White Nationalists that are married to East/South East Asian women. They're complete hypocrites in advocating for a white ethnostate when their own children won't even be seen as White and they're by definition eliminating the white genepool.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/06/opin ... etish.html

Of course it takes two to tangle, Asian women have their own agency and are themselves complicit in choosing White nationalists/supremacists as partners but mainstream discourse seemingly hasn't yet evolved to call it out. Sometimes it's a case of escaping poverty but there are many cases of Asian women having internalised racism which causes them to view being Asian (East, South-East Asians) as lesser and having half white white children as an upgrade; quite frankly what could be described as an interracial eugenics ideology.


I think it's pretty tasteless and I wouldn't eat there on principal. But also I think the outrage is false, liberal credential flaunting shit for the most part. I wouldnt eat there but Im not "outraged" by it. As I mentioned before, if you're mocking people that's pretty shit and not what I'm talking about . Genuine appropriation or good natured fun is not racist.

I dunno what prom dress you're talking about.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 6:51 pm 
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I think the crux of the issue is the media. So some Chinese nobody writes a few sentences on twitter about cultural appropriation and now he's become a mouthpiece for how the Chinese think?

Some extremist bint takes photos of her Ar-15 outside of college and she now represents all gun owners?

Why aren't these morons being ignored, rather than reported in major news outlets.

Twitter has killed journalism.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 9:25 pm 
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Elon Musk has outed himself as alt-right now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifh8jIXUF-Q

Oh, and Newsome: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBCbf8a5SKU


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 11:19 pm 
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pontifex wrote:
One of the reasons I hold the positions I do, by the way, is that I love genuine cultural diversity. I see American cultural imperialism as a huge threat to that, and I see increasingly homogeneous cities across Europe and the world. I also see reactionary movements like radical Islam as a response to American cultural imperialism - you only have to read Qutb, or what they're saying now, to see that.

So you love cultural diversity as long as it doesn't include American culture?
And blame American cultural imperialism for the rise of radical Islam?
Sounds racist to me.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 11:53 pm 
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World Class Phil wrote:
Exploiting a sexualised and degraded western depiction of 'Asian' culture and people that was propagated by the West for commercial gain, get pass points for being 'edgy' and humourous. Then hide behind the guise of 'my Asian wife/girlfriend/dog/friend/sex slave' doesn't find it offensive.


same-same, but different:

Quote:
In addition to the Longtime name, the duo, who also own and run city diner Vietnamese Laundry, have called the hotel’s front bar the Ping Pong Club Room — which some claim references Southeast Asia’s ping pong sex shows. It’s a claim Mr Fahey strongly denies.

“It’s meant to be like a clubroom — like a football clubroom — where you go and have a drink after playing ping pong,” he said. “It’s nothing to do with the Thailand ping pong shows.”

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/thesource ... 81177df26d


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 1:19 am 
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pontifex wrote:
One of the reasons I hold the positions I do, by the way, is that I love genuine cultural diversity. I see American cultural imperialism as a huge threat to that, and I see increasingly homogeneous cities across Europe and the world. I also see reactionary movements like radical Islam as a response to American cultural imperialism - you only have to read Qutb, or what they're saying now, to see that.


The EU has a lot to answer for in terms of a homogeneous Europe. Probably more so than the Yanks culture.


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 8:28 am 
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kiwinoz wrote:
pontifex wrote:
One of the reasons I hold the positions I do, by the way, is that I love genuine cultural diversity. I see American cultural imperialism as a huge threat to that, and I see increasingly homogeneous cities across Europe and the world. I also see reactionary movements like radical Islam as a response to American cultural imperialism - you only have to read Qutb, or what they're saying now, to see that.


The EU has a lot to answer for in terms of a homogeneous Europe. Probably more so than the Yanks culture.


His initial point about homogeneous cities in Europe is wrong.


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 9:27 am 
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La soule wrote:
kiwinoz wrote:
pontifex wrote:
One of the reasons I hold the positions I do, by the way, is that I love genuine cultural diversity. I see American cultural imperialism as a huge threat to that, and I see increasingly homogeneous cities across Europe and the world. I also see reactionary movements like radical Islam as a response to American cultural imperialism - you only have to read Qutb, or what they're saying now, to see that.


The EU has a lot to answer for in terms of a homogeneous Europe. Probably more so than the Yanks culture.


His initial point about homogeneous cities in Europe is wrong.

Really? Apart from the historical relics (it's true that they haven't started bulldozing them yet), most of western Europe, particularly among young western Europeans, seems to be becoming more and more similar, in precisely the way Mogg outlined above. Aside from the historical landmarks, I find the centres of major cities virtually indistinguishable. Some people view this as a positive 'coming together', while I view it as a tragedy. Even youth subcultures seem to be disappearing under the weight of conformity.

As an aside, in critiquing Locke's notion of incommunicability here:

Quote:
Words, by long and familiar use… come to excite in men certain ideas so constantly and readily, that they are apt to suppose a natural connexion between them. But that they signify only men’s peculiar ideas, and that by a perfectly arbitrary imposition, is evident in that they often fail to excite in others (even that use the same language) the same ideas we take them to be signs of: and every man has so inviolable a liberty to make words stand for what ideas he pleases, that no one hath the power to make others have the same ideas in their minds as he had, when they use the same words that he does.


I commented, in a thesis, that:
Quote:
Locke’s imaginary ideal world – the one he implies – is not only a fiction, it is a world in which communication ceases to be useful, since humanity would merge into a collective mental monster.


I fell out with my adjunct supervisor over the bolded phrase, since he found it offensive. He found it a beautiful idea that we would come together as one mind. I found it not only false and hopelessly unrealistic, but horrifying and deeply inhuman.

True story.


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On the homogeneity of cities, this is a process that has been accelerating since the 90s as youth culture merges. A couple of things I think sped this along: the emergence of dance music / EDM as the first global culture of any type in history, with superstar DJs travelling from Buenos Aires to Manilla to Istanbul in the space of a week, and the implantation across every city of the planet of identikit cocktail bars / lounges with local star 'mixologists'. A class of urbanite invented by Wallpaper magazine and working in the central city cross between Singapore (cluster of skyscrapers) and Copenhagen (lower rise spaces for creative / media workers) moves between these spaces from city to city.

Where the cities of Europe do diverge of course, and where their vibrancy is so diverse is as follows: Berlin has Turks, Stockholm Syrians, Brussells Moroccans, Paris Senegalese, Marseilles Algerians, Rome Eritreans, Birmingham Pakistanis, and London a glorious mixture of everything. Vive la Difference! . . . as long as they don't come too close to La Defense, or Canary Wharf. Everyone's a winner: exoticism and familiarity in one moccyfashionedtini. I'll drink to that.


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