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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:28 pm 
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Diego wrote:
Kid A is right. This is how it's been refereed for the last season, accidental or not. Why they chose to ignore that for this incident I don't know.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:34 pm 
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Is it possible they take into account the body position of the attacker now?

Could ruin a game if a guy intentionally fell into a textbook tackle to take the defender out of the game.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:34 pm 
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Andalu wrote:
mr bungle wrote:
Andalu wrote:
mr bungle wrote:
Kid A wrote:
Midriff? :lol: :lol:


Your gif doesn't take in the whole context of the play. The ref darts between Grosso and Ofa seconds before impact. I don't think that helped Ofa get a bead on the impact coming his way. I still can't understand no real sanction given. WR has been working on outcome rather than accidental for some time now.

I wouldn't have been surprised or even upset if he was sanctioned but I guess they felt that if the attacker goes low into contact then similar accidents will happen regularly and they don't want to encourage putting all the blame on the defender if the defender is making a textbook tackle.


We lost a Lions series because some jerk jumped into a tackler, feet set and planted, looking to make a text book tackle. There's just too much wriggle room within the laws.

Someone post the gif because I might be wrong but I think Ofa's body shape was much more standard. SBW has a tendency to slide up.



He's talking about the Faumuina tackle, not SBW.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:36 pm 
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Diego wrote:
Kid A is right. This is how it's been refereed for the last season, accidental or not. Why they chose to ignore that for this incident I don't know.


You can't have a blanket ruling approach to a game that features thousands of possible permutations inherent in every act.

There is no one rule fits all.

Expecting that is simplistic, naive or stupid.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:38 pm 
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Andalu wrote:
Is it possible they take into account the body position of the attacker now?

Could ruin a game if a guy intentionally fell into a textbook tackle to take the defender out of the game.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s3qols_Ch4#t=2m56s

Nigel Owens suggests that if you're attempting a legal tackle and someone falls into it, it's a pen but not a card. Now, Ofa has been adjudged by the judiciary to be at least yellow card level but regardless - they do clearly take into account if the initial tackle attempt is low.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:38 pm 
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Andalu wrote:
Is it possible they take into account the body position of the attacker now?

Could ruin a game if a guy intentionally fell into a textbook tackle to take the defender out of the game.


Somebody posted this link earlier but it is worth reposting, giving the referee's thought processes as he deals with a high tackle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s3qols ... 0s&index=4


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:40 pm 
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Jay Cee Gee wrote:
Andalu wrote:
Is it possible they take into account the body position of the attacker now?

Could ruin a game if a guy intentionally fell into a textbook tackle to take the defender out of the game.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s3qols_Ch4#t=2m56s

Nigel Owens suggests that if you're attempting a legal tackle and someone falls into it, it's a pen but not a card. Now, Ofa has been adjudged by the judiciary to be at least yellow card level but regardless - they do clearly take into account if the initial tackle attempt is low.


And this shows what an absolute joke of a referee Nigel Owens is:

https://twitter.com/PRO14Official/statu ... 4714846214


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:43 pm 
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Jay Cee Gee wrote:
Andalu wrote:
Is it possible they take into account the body position of the attacker now?

Could ruin a game if a guy intentionally fell into a textbook tackle to take the defender out of the game.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s3qols_Ch4#t=2m56s

Nigel Owens suggests that if you're attempting a legal tackle and someone falls into it, it's a pen but not a card. Now, Ofa has been adjudged by the judiciary to be at least yellow card level but regardless - they do clearly take into account if the initial tackle attempt is low.


Yeah, Nige is a clown.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:43 pm 
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mr bungle wrote:
Andalu wrote:
mr bungle wrote:
Kid A wrote:
Midriff? :lol: :lol:


Your gif doesn't take in the whole context of the play. The ref darts between Grosso and Ofa seconds before impact. I don't think that helped Ofa get a bead on the impact coming his way. I still can't understand no real sanction given. WR has been working on outcome rather than accidental for some time now.

I wouldn't have been surprised or even upset if he was sanctioned but I guess they felt that if the attacker goes low into contact then similar accidents will happen regularly and they don't want to encourage putting all the blame on the defender if the defender is making a textbook tackle.


We lost a Lions series because some jerk jumped into a tackler, feet set and planted, looking to make a text book tackle. There's just too much wriggle room within the laws.


Law was an absolute arse there. Said jerk should have been penalised for being a dick. Instead the law pointed the other way.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:44 pm 
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First Pearce, now Owens. Kid A is clearly Cymruphobic.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:44 pm 
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Ok, tell me why these got bans then and this one didn't. They all involve the tacklee dipping into contact, and what looks like unintentional (albeit reckless) contact with the head. What's different in the Tu'ungafasi one that didn't merit a ban?

Kid A wrote:
Double red card and 3 week ban:

Image

red card and 3 week ban:

Image

4 week ban:

Image


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:47 pm 
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Body position of the defenders.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:48 pm 
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Andalu wrote:
Body position of the defenders.


+
Use of the arm or not
Leading with shoulder without the arm up to wrap
Following through with the arm to pull the head back


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:49 pm 
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Kid A wrote:
Jay Cee Gee wrote:
Andalu wrote:
Is it possible they take into account the body position of the attacker now?

Could ruin a game if a guy intentionally fell into a textbook tackle to take the defender out of the game.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s3qols_Ch4#t=2m56s

Nigel Owens suggests that if you're attempting a legal tackle and someone falls into it, it's a pen but not a card. Now, Ofa has been adjudged by the judiciary to be at least yellow card level but regardless - they do clearly take into account if the initial tackle attempt is low.


And this shows what an absolute joke of a referee Nigel Owens is:

https://twitter.com/PRO14Official/statu ... 4714846214


Did you watch the video? He says if the tackle attempt is illegal - eg, a shoulder charge - then the tackled player falling in to the tackle will be ignored.

To be honest, I think it looks like he did make some attempt to grasp though. So if what Owens said in the vid is correct, it's a mistake in fact rather than law.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:50 pm 
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Andalu wrote:
Body position of the defenders.


Filise is in pretty much the exact same position as Ofa is.

Image


Last edited by Diego on Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:50 pm 
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Also the haka...


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:50 pm 
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Diego wrote:
Ok, tell me why these got bans then and this one didn't. They all involve the tacklee dipping into contact, and what looks like unintentional (albeit reckless) contact with the head. What's different in the Tu'ungafasi one that didn't merit a ban?

Kid A wrote:
Double red card and 3 week ban:

Image

red card and 3 week ban:

Image

4 week ban:

Image


The first and third ones are clear shoulder charges in addition to being high. As I said, the second one is more marginal in terms of using arms.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:51 pm 
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Diego wrote:
Andalu wrote:
Body position of the defenders.


Filise is in pretty much the exact same position as Ofa is.

Image


The tackled player is bent over before he even goes into contact, tbf.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:03 pm 
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The Barrington one I'm most sympathetic with. Virtually no time to do anything about it. Carrier more falls into him than him hitting the carrier. Ofa doesn't have much time either, but still lunges a bit with the shoulder toward a falling man. Lova and Filise no forgiveness for (though head contact in Lova's case is in question, he still aims high knowing full well he could slide up and over)

I contend that these incidents and 'harsh' cards should aim to get players to think twice about their actions. Protecting the head has to take precedence above all or after a while we're not going to have a game with all the lawsuits coming WR's / various leagues' way.

Ofa had no time to actively move out of the way, but could have done better to recognise Cane had brought Grosso down low and accepted contact rather than lean into it. Would have avoided a head clash as well doing that.

There's too much of an emphasis on 'winning the collision', imo. So many double tackles in a game that are unnecessary, with the first man doing enough to bring the carrier down. Funnily enough, it's better for a jackal as well, with the second man staying out to poach a la George Smith (not to mention bringing the ball carrier onto your side, making it more difficult for him to lay the ball back / exposing it to the jackaller).


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:27 pm 
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You can see Ofas position if you use the French player who is upright just behind them as a reference (looks like a prop). If he was tackling that guy he would hit him squarely in the midriff.

As a collision sport you will always get injuries, no amount of legislation or sanctions will ever stop that.

Unless we make rugby anon contact sport. Cane and Ofa must have very hard heads though.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:50 pm 
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That's a joke if the second guy in that tackle got punished, he just moved into the carrier's line but does little more than wait for him, arms out. Based on that gif anyway.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:06 pm 
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All Black thuggery narrative builds higher the worse England get.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:14 pm 
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Toro wrote:
Image

That's a joke if the second guy in that tackle got punished, he just moved into the carrier's line but does little more than wait for him, arms out. Based on that gif anyway.


Nah, smashed him illegally


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:05 pm 
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rugga. wrote:
All Black thuggery narrative builds higher the worse England get.


Except no English poster started this thread and most PR English posters have mostly not even commented here and many other nations posters have..


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:17 pm 
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Nieghorn wrote:
Ofa doesn't have much time either, but still lunges a bit with the shoulder toward a falling man.


I remember the first impression I had watching the game live on TV was that Ofa was driving into the tackle situation with his shoulder, because his right arm was pointed towards the ground and backwards, in what could've been considered a reckless fashion.

Many reviews later, I still have the same issue with the whole situation.

Considering the french player was tackled from behind and fell into him he had no likely way of avoiding a collision with the head, and that part could be considered accidental.

But the way he drove shoulder first into the tackled area is something I've seen severely sanctioned many times. Probably it was rightfully considered below the red card threshold but IMHO it would've been quite likely within the yellow card area...


Last edited by Puma on Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:17 pm 
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For those interested in the citing process there is a link here to who the NZRU appointed for each June test.

https://www.worldrugby.org/news/341551?lang=en


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:20 pm 
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Kid A wrote:
Andalu wrote:
Curious whether you think Ofa's tackle technique was anything out of the ordinary. Bent at the waist, arms outstretched, horizontal movement. Grosso isn't short either, he just went very low into contact.


He lead with his shoulder into the head area. Even if Grosso doesn't descend 30cm lower, Ofa is still on course to hit his upper neck area.


From the Jiffy Twitter link earlier

Quote:
Sam Toner


@SamJToner
Follow Follow @SamJToner
More
Replying to @JiffyRugby @MickClearyTel
Can you explain to me how a punishing a player (Tu’ungafasi in this case) who is lining up a tackle, crouched low with a good technique but then accidentally makes contact with the head due to the ball carrier falling will change things?

10:28 PM - 12 Jun 2018


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:22 pm 
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rugga. wrote:
All Black thuggery narrative builds higher the worse England and Ireland get.


Fixed


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:31 pm 
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And from last night

Jay Renton (New Zealand)

New Zealand replacement Jay Renton was issued a Citing Commissioner Warning by Citing Commissioner Eugene Ryan (Ireland) for stamping in breach of Law 9.12 in the 58th minute of their World Rugby U20 Championship 2018 semi-final against France on 12 June, 2018 in Perpignan.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:52 pm 
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Diego wrote:
Kid A is right. This is how it's been refereed for the last season, accidental or not. Why they chose to ignore that for this incident I don't know.


Exactly.

His tackle technique here is fine IMO. He was unlucky to make contact with Grosso's face...but these incidents have been red cards all year and I just cant understand how this one was not. Whether there is truth to the accusation that NZ in general get off with a bit more I don't know...but in THIS incident it should have been a Red.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:58 pm 
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Toro wrote:
Image

That's a joke if the second guy in that tackle got punished, he just moved into the carrier's line but does little more than wait for him, arms out. Based on that gif anyway.


That's exactly what happened...but its not a joke - it is the World Rugby directive to punish these incidents...so you can understand why everyone is a bit confused that Ofa was not punished.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:06 pm 
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shabadoo wrote:
Diego wrote:
Kid A is right. This is how it's been refereed for the last season, accidental or not. Why they chose to ignore that for this incident I don't know.


Exactly.

His tackle technique here is fine IMO. He was unlucky to make contact with Grosso's face...but these incidents have been red cards all year and I just cant understand how this one was not. Whether there is truth to the accusation that NZ in general get off with a bit more I don't know...but in THIS incident it should have been a Red.



Not here it hasn't. The powers that be up North have made one plus one = three.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:18 pm 
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Think the NZ commentators knew he was in trouble. They went very quiet, which is not like them, if they thought it was legal they would have been all “ great tackle”.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:33 pm 
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Jay Cee Gee wrote:
Andalu wrote:
Is it possible they take into account the body position of the attacker now?

Could ruin a game if a guy intentionally fell into a textbook tackle to take the defender out of the game.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s3qols_Ch4#t=2m56s

Nigel Owens suggests that if you're attempting a legal tackle and someone falls into it, it's a pen but not a card. Now, Ofa has been adjudged by the judiciary to be at least yellow card level but regardless - they do clearly take into account if the initial tackle attempt is low.

Great link. Pretty much ends the thread.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:36 pm 
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It should never have started but, because they have been doing it wrong up North, they now want us to do it wrong down here.

Quote:
Now, Ofa has been adjudged by the judiciary to be at least yellow card level


No, he has been judged Yellow card level AT MOST


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:43 pm 
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shabadoo wrote:
Toro wrote:
Image

That's a joke if the second guy in that tackle got punished, he just moved into the carrier's line but does little more than wait for him, arms out. Based on that gif anyway.


That's exactly what happened...but its not a joke - it is the World Rugby directive to punish these incidents...so you can understand why everyone is a bit confused that Ofa was not punished.


Actually I think people should be confused as to why that player was punished, while still be confused that Of a was not. If he'd just stood still that player would've smashed his face into some part his body, he doesn't even cock his shoulder, just puts his arm out and the guy actually head butts his shoulder haha. If you just watch the player rather than the whole collision it doesn't look bad at all, even in slow motion where everything looks ten times worse.
In real time it is an absolute joke to think he could do anything else.

The slow motion sh-t gets everyone hysterical, if you see someone get hit in the face with a swiss ball in super slo-mo the impact looks brutal. it also makes everything look way more premeditated. These collisions happen so quickly.

Neig is right too, winning the collision is so important every tackle risks a red card if someone slips or is pushed in sideways by another tackle at the last second.

I'm sure there are 10-20 tackles and clean-outs in every game we watch where a shoulder meets a face/head with force, it just takes someone to put it up on the big screen.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:04 pm 
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shabadoo wrote:
Toro wrote:
Image

That's a joke if the second guy in that tackle got punished, he just moved into the carrier's line but does little more than wait for him, arms out. Based on that gif anyway.


That's exactly what happened...but its not a joke - it is the World Rugby directive to punish these incidents...so you can understand why everyone is a bit confused that Ofa was not punished.


If you pick any team and find someone with too much time on their hands I'm pretty sure they could find examples where a player wasn't carded for contact with the head since the directive came out.

This one's only getting so much attention because it's attracted the usual bitter one eyed tin foil brigade that leap on anything that might seem to support their contention that the ABs get a free ride. While of course ignoring anything that doesn't fit the narrative.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:50 pm 
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Fat Old Git wrote:
shabadoo wrote:
Toro wrote:
Image

That's a joke if the second guy in that tackle got punished, he just moved into the carrier's line but does little more than wait for him, arms out. Based on that gif anyway.


That's exactly what happened...but its not a joke - it is the World Rugby directive to punish these incidents...so you can understand why everyone is a bit confused that Ofa was not punished.


If you pick any team and find someone with too much time on their hands I'm pretty sure they could find examples where a player wasn't carded for contact with the head since the directive came out.

This one's only getting so much attention because it's attracted the usual bitter one eyed tin foil brigade that leap on anything that might seem to support their contention that the ABs get a free ride. While of course ignoring anything that doesn't fit the narrative.


Probably an element of truth in that.

That said - it is a high profile game (which, tbf, most AB games are - which might be unfortunate for the AB's) and the player did end up with a double fracture to the face...I think that is the main reason this is getting a lot of attention. You would also have to admit that there have been a good few incidents like this involving AB players in the last few years. Some punished and some not.

Also, I do think that the match against Ireland has left a bad taste in a few peoples mouths. The AB's definitely came with the intention of going hard and they crossed the line a few times without any "real" punishment...it was not long after that the new directives came out.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:51 pm 
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Enzedder wrote:
shabadoo wrote:
Diego wrote:
Kid A is right. This is how it's been refereed for the last season, accidental or not. Why they chose to ignore that for this incident I don't know.


Exactly.

His tackle technique here is fine IMO. He was unlucky to make contact with Grosso's face...but these incidents have been red cards all year and I just cant understand how this one was not. Whether there is truth to the accusation that NZ in general get off with a bit more I don't know...but in THIS incident it should have been a Red.



Not here it hasn't. The powers that be up North have made one plus one = three.


If that is true it might explain a lot tbf.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:57 pm 
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shabadoo wrote:
Enzedder wrote:


Not here it hasn't. The powers that be up North have made one plus one = three.


If that is true it might explain a lot tbf.


And yet, when you listen to Owens in that recent link, it shouldn't be adjudicated that way up north either - and the ref on Saturday didn't ref it that way either - and the citing commissioner didn't either.

I think the confusion is up there, not down here.


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