Planet Rugby Forum

Oops, I made a typo. Due to PR rules this means my argument is now considered mute and I must withdraw.

Kid A wrote:Midriff?

Your gif doesn't take in the whole context of the play. The ref darts between Grosso and Ofa seconds before impact. I don't think that helped Ofa get a bead on the impact coming his way. I still can't understand no real sanction given. WR has been working on outcome rather than accidental for some time now.

Kid A wrote:

Davedj77 wrote:
Eh? Look how low Ofa is. Its the fact the player with the ball is being tackled and is so low himself that meant the impact was high. I don't think Ofa could have got much lower. You have to remember this shit happens in a split second. There isn't time to change body position. You'd be a shit coach cos your defenders would have to be f**king lying on the ground to make a legal tackle if you think his "body shape" is wrong.

These have been red cards for a season now. That's the point.

Now all of a sudden it's an accident.

I actually think he should have been sanctioned going by what has happened recently. But I also think it was a complete accident, and there was nothing he could have done about it. His body position was very low and the tacker was falling into him. I have no idea what the defender is supposed to do there when it all happens in a split second and he's set himself so low. Sometimes in rugby shit is going to happen. That's the nature of the game.

usermame wrote:

sorCrer wrote:Also the pre kick off stuff needs to go as it's really not PC any longer in today's society.

Yes, anthems and militarism have no place in sports.

No anthems? Why not get rid of national representation in sport then?

mr bungle wrote:

Kid A wrote:Midriff?

Your gif doesn't take in the whole context of the play. The ref darts between Grosso and Ofa seconds before impact. I don't think that helped Ofa get a bead on the impact coming his way. I still can't understand no real sanction given. WR has been working on outcome rather than accidental for some time now.

I wouldn't have been surprised or even upset if he was sanctioned but I guess they felt that if the attacker goes low into contact then similar accidents will happen regularly and they don't want to encourage putting all the blame on the defender if the defender is making a textbook tackle.

Davedj77 wrote:

Kid A wrote:

Davedj77 wrote:
Eh? Look how low Ofa is. Its the fact the player with the ball is being tackled and is so low himself that meant the impact was high. I don't think Ofa could have got much lower. You have to remember this shit happens in a split second. There isn't time to change body position. You'd be a shit coach cos your defenders would have to be f**king lying on the ground to make a legal tackle if you think his "body shape" is wrong.

These have been red cards for a season now. That's the point.

Now all of a sudden it's an accident.

I actually think he should have been sanctioned going by what has happened recently. But I also think it was a complete accident, and there was nothing he could have done about it. His body position was very low and the tacker was falling into him. I have no idea what the defender is supposed to do there when it all happens in a split second and he's set himself so low. Sometimes in rugby shit is going to happen. That's the nature of the game.

As I said, these have been penalised thus far since the new head shot directives have come about. Reckless / accidental or not. I've already posted examples of ridiculous red cards - and fans of those teams were told to stop whining as there can be no place for error regarding concussions in the game.

Now we're told "shit is going to happen". Suck it up. He fractured his face in an accident. So which is it? The latter I expect now?

Rugby needs to decide if shit is going to happen or shit needs to be damage controlled. Or there will be some sort of legal case on the horizon sooner rather than later..

Andalu wrote:

mr bungle wrote:

Kid A wrote:Midriff?

Your gif doesn't take in the whole context of the play. The ref darts between Grosso and Ofa seconds before impact. I don't think that helped Ofa get a bead on the impact coming his way. I still can't understand no real sanction given. WR has been working on outcome rather than accidental for some time now.

I wouldn't have been surprised or even upset if he was sanctioned but I guess they felt that if the attacker goes low into contact then similar accidents will happen regularly and they don't want to encourage putting all the blame on the defender if the defender is making a textbook tackle.

We lost a Lions series because some jerk jumped into a tackler, feet set and planted, looking to make a text book tackle. There's just too much wriggle room within the laws.

mr bungle wrote:

Andalu wrote:

mr bungle wrote:

Kid A wrote:Midriff?

Your gif doesn't take in the whole context of the play. The ref darts between Grosso and Ofa seconds before impact. I don't think that helped Ofa get a bead on the impact coming his way. I still can't understand no real sanction given. WR has been working on outcome rather than accidental for some time now.

I wouldn't have been surprised or even upset if he was sanctioned but I guess they felt that if the attacker goes low into contact then similar accidents will happen regularly and they don't want to encourage putting all the blame on the defender if the defender is making a textbook tackle.

We lost a Lions series because some jerk jumped into a tackler, feet set and planted, looking to make a text book tackle. There's just too much wriggle room within the laws.

Someone post the gif because I might be wrong but I think Ofa's body shape was much more standard. SBW has a tendency to slide up.

Kid A is right. This is how it's been refereed for the last season, accidental or not. Why they chose to ignore that for this incident I don't know.

Diego wrote:Kid A is right. This is how it's been refereed for the last season, accidental or not. Why they chose to ignore that for this incident I don't know.

Is it possible they take into account the body position of the attacker now?

Could ruin a game if a guy intentionally fell into a textbook tackle to take the defender out of the game.

Andalu wrote:

mr bungle wrote:

Andalu wrote:

mr bungle wrote:

Kid A wrote:Midriff?

Your gif doesn't take in the whole context of the play. The ref darts between Grosso and Ofa seconds before impact. I don't think that helped Ofa get a bead on the impact coming his way. I still can't understand no real sanction given. WR has been working on outcome rather than accidental for some time now.

I wouldn't have been surprised or even upset if he was sanctioned but I guess they felt that if the attacker goes low into contact then similar accidents will happen regularly and they don't want to encourage putting all the blame on the defender if the defender is making a textbook tackle.

We lost a Lions series because some jerk jumped into a tackler, feet set and planted, looking to make a text book tackle. There's just too much wriggle room within the laws.

Someone post the gif because I might be wrong but I think Ofa's body shape was much more standard. SBW has a tendency to slide up.

He's talking about the Faumuina tackle, not SBW.

Andalu wrote:Is it possible they take into account the body position of the attacker now?

Could ruin a game if a guy intentionally fell into a textbook tackle to take the defender out of the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s3qols_Ch4#t=2m56s

Nigel Owens suggests that if you're attempting a legal tackle and someone falls into it, it's a pen but not a card. Now, Ofa has been adjudged by the judiciary to be at least yellow card level but regardless - they do clearly take into account if the initial tackle attempt is low.

Andalu wrote:Is it possible they take into account the body position of the attacker now?

Could ruin a game if a guy intentionally fell into a textbook tackle to take the defender out of the game.

Somebody posted this link earlier but it is worth reposting, giving the referee's thought processes as he deals with a high tackle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s3qols ... 0s&index=4

Jay Cee Gee wrote:

Andalu wrote:Is it possible they take into account the body position of the attacker now?

Could ruin a game if a guy intentionally fell into a textbook tackle to take the defender out of the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s3qols_Ch4#t=2m56s

Nigel Owens suggests that if you're attempting a legal tackle and someone falls into it, it's a pen but not a card. Now, Ofa has been adjudged by the judiciary to be at least yellow card level but regardless - they do clearly take into account if the initial tackle attempt is low.

And this shows what an absolute joke of a referee Nigel Owens is:

https://twitter.com/PRO14Official/statu ... 4714846214

Jay Cee Gee wrote:

Andalu wrote:Is it possible they take into account the body position of the attacker now?

Could ruin a game if a guy intentionally fell into a textbook tackle to take the defender out of the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s3qols_Ch4#t=2m56s

Nigel Owens suggests that if you're attempting a legal tackle and someone falls into it, it's a pen but not a card. Now, Ofa has been adjudged by the judiciary to be at least yellow card level but regardless - they do clearly take into account if the initial tackle attempt is low.

Yeah, Nige is a clown.

First Pearce, now Owens. Kid A is clearly Cymruphobic.

Ok, tell me why these got bans then and this one didn't. They all involve the tacklee dipping into contact, and what looks like unintentional (albeit reckless) contact with the head. What's different in the Tu'ungafasi one that didn't merit a ban?

Kid A wrote:Double red card and 3 week ban:



red card and 3 week ban:



4 week ban:

Body position of the defenders.

Andalu wrote:Body position of the defenders.

+
Use of the arm or not
Leading with shoulder without the arm up to wrap
Following through with the arm to pull the head back

Kid A wrote:

Jay Cee Gee wrote:

Andalu wrote:Is it possible they take into account the body position of the attacker now?

Could ruin a game if a guy intentionally fell into a textbook tackle to take the defender out of the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s3qols_Ch4#t=2m56s

Nigel Owens suggests that if you're attempting a legal tackle and someone falls into it, it's a pen but not a card. Now, Ofa has been adjudged by the judiciary to be at least yellow card level but regardless - they do clearly take into account if the initial tackle attempt is low.

And this shows what an absolute joke of a referee Nigel Owens is:

https://twitter.com/PRO14Official/statu ... 4714846214

Did you watch the video? He says if the tackle attempt is illegal - eg, a shoulder charge - then the tackled player falling in to the tackle will be ignored.

To be honest, I think it looks like he did make some attempt to grasp though. So if what Owens said in the vid is correct, it's a mistake in fact rather than law.

Andalu wrote:Body position of the defenders.

Filise is in pretty much the exact same position as Ofa is.

Also the haka...

Diego wrote:Ok, tell me why these got bans then and this one didn't. They all involve the tacklee dipping into contact, and what looks like unintentional (albeit reckless) contact with the head. What's different in the Tu'ungafasi one that didn't merit a ban?

Kid A wrote:Double red card and 3 week ban:



red card and 3 week ban:



4 week ban:

The first and third ones are clear shoulder charges in addition to being high. As I said, the second one is more marginal in terms of using arms.

Diego wrote:

Andalu wrote:Body position of the defenders.

Filise is in pretty much the exact same position as Ofa is.

The tackled player is bent over before he even goes into contact, tbf.

The Barrington one I'm most sympathetic with. Virtually no time to do anything about it. Carrier more falls into him than him hitting the carrier. Ofa doesn't have much time either, but still lunges a bit with the shoulder toward a falling man. Lova and Filise no forgiveness for (though head contact in Lova's case is in question, he still aims high knowing full well he could slide up and over)

I contend that these incidents and 'harsh' cards should aim to get players to think twice about their actions. Protecting the head has to take precedence above all or after a while we're not going to have a game with all the lawsuits coming WR's / various leagues' way.

Ofa had no time to actively move out of the way, but could have done better to recognise Cane had brought Grosso down low and accepted contact rather than lean into it. Would have avoided a head clash as well doing that.

There's too much of an emphasis on 'winning the collision', imo. So many double tackles in a game that are unnecessary, with the first man doing enough to bring the carrier down. Funnily enough, it's better for a jackal as well, with the second man staying out to poach a la George Smith (not to mention bringing the ball carrier onto your side, making it more difficult for him to lay the ball back / exposing it to the jackaller).

You can see Ofas position if you use the French player who is upright just behind them as a reference (looks like a prop). If he was tackling that guy he would hit him squarely in the midriff.

As a collision sport you will always get injuries, no amount of legislation or sanctions will ever stop that.

Unless we make rugby anon contact sport. Cane and Ofa must have very hard heads though.

That's a joke if the second guy in that tackle got punished, he just moved into the carrier's line but does little more than wait for him, arms out. Based on that gif anyway.

All Black thuggery narrative builds higher the worse England get.

Toro wrote:

That's a joke if the second guy in that tackle got punished, he just moved into the carrier's line but does little more than wait for him, arms out. Based on that gif anyway.

Nah, smashed him illegally

rugga. wrote:All Black thuggery narrative builds higher the worse England get.

Except no English poster started this thread and most PR English posters have mostly not even commented here and many other nations posters have..

Nieghorn wrote: Ofa doesn't have much time either, but still lunges a bit with the shoulder toward a falling man.

I remember the first impression I had watching the game live on TV was that Ofa was driving into the tackle situation with his shoulder, because his right arm was pointed towards the ground and backwards, in what could've been considered a reckless fashion.

Many reviews later, I still have the same issue with the whole situation.

Considering the french player was tackled from behind and fell into him he had no likely way of avoiding a collision with the head, and that part could be considered accidental.

But the way he drove shoulder first into the tackled area is something I've seen severely sanctioned many times. Probably it was rightfully considered below the red card threshold but IMHO it would've been quite likely within the yellow card area...

For those interested in the citing process there is a link here to who the NZRU appointed for each June test.

https://www.worldrugby.org/news/341551?lang=en

Kid A wrote:

Andalu wrote: Curious whether you think Ofa's tackle technique was anything out of the ordinary. Bent at the waist, arms outstretched, horizontal movement. Grosso isn't short either, he just went very low into contact.

He lead with his shoulder into the head area. Even if Grosso doesn't descend 30cm lower, Ofa is still on course to hit his upper neck area.

From the Jiffy Twitter link earlier

Sam Toner
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@SamJToner
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Replying to @JiffyRugby @MickClearyTel
Can you explain to me how a punishing a player (Tu’ungafasi in this case) who is lining up a tackle, crouched low with a good technique but then accidentally makes contact with the head due to the ball carrier falling will change things?

10:28 PM - 12 Jun 2018

rugga. wrote:All Black thuggery narrative builds higher the worse England and Ireland get.

Fixed

And from last night

Jay Renton (New Zealand)

New Zealand replacement Jay Renton was issued a Citing Commissioner Warning by Citing Commissioner Eugene Ryan (Ireland) for stamping in breach of Law 9.12 in the 58th minute of their World Rugby U20 Championship 2018 semi-final against France on 12 June, 2018 in Perpignan.

Diego wrote:Kid A is right. This is how it's been refereed for the last season, accidental or not. Why they chose to ignore that for this incident I don't know.

Exactly.

His tackle technique here is fine IMO. He was unlucky to make contact with Grosso's face...but these incidents have been red cards all year and I just cant understand how this one was not. Whether there is truth to the accusation that NZ in general get off with a bit more I don't know...but in THIS incident it should have been a Red.

Toro wrote:

That's a joke if the second guy in that tackle got punished, he just moved into the carrier's line but does little more than wait for him, arms out. Based on that gif anyway.

That's exactly what happened...but its not a joke - it is the World Rugby directive to punish these incidents...so you can understand why everyone is a bit confused that Ofa was not punished.

shabadoo wrote:

Diego wrote:Kid A is right. This is how it's been refereed for the last season, accidental or not. Why they chose to ignore that for this incident I don't know.

Exactly.

His tackle technique here is fine IMO. He was unlucky to make contact with Grosso's face...but these incidents have been red cards all year and I just cant understand how this one was not. Whether there is truth to the accusation that NZ in general get off with a bit more I don't know...but in THIS incident it should have been a Red.

Not here it hasn't. The powers that be up North have made one plus one = three.

Think the NZ commentators knew he was in trouble. They went very quiet, which is not like them, if they thought it was legal they would have been all “ great tackle”.