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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:59 am 
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bimboman wrote:
Farva wrote:
bimboman wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Sorry, is climate change a factor in current migration, and if so is it as big a factor as the population boom ? Demographics btw show a decline in global populations post 2050.


The UN has three simplified models for population forecasting. Only the most 'optimistic' shows any real decline and that is to a point marginally short of where we stand today.

Climate change will affect migration as various parts of the world become either uninhabitable or, in low lying coastal zones, simply not available.



But completely irrelevant right now then. Glad we cleared that up.

Well. No.
There is a strong argument that man made climate change is currently driving many of the economix migrants due to their inability to make a living off the land they currently have. Its impossible to quantify as we dont know what would have happened without climate change.


Well we know populations have doubled..... Doesn't sound like a failure to me.

https://www.google.com.vn/url?sa=t&sour ... mGNMHf0Q1A


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:59 am 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
You are dead wrong. The only solution that will cut it is the most simple. They cannot move to Europe.


"Economic Migrant pulls ladder up behind him shock"


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:08 am 
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Pat the Ex Mat wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
You are dead wrong. The only solution that will cut it is the most simple. They cannot move to Europe.


"Economic Migrant pulls ladder up behind him shock"

:lol: :thumbup:

"the Mediterranean must be closed"


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:14 am 
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First Generation Migrants always have the worst attitude to other migrants.

Second Generation works hard to fit in.

Third Generation becomes extremist.

:thumbdown:


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:40 am 
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A few things people raised.

Assfly: If I read you right over the last page or two your broad point seems to be that potential migrants need to be incentivised to stay put. Police borders of origin countries better, work with relevant governments, put money in at the point of departure pre-departure, get local government to inform people of the hazards of travelling; at the same time, if people make it as far as the European coast, don't be so inhumane as to reject their efforts to enter; better to let them in than not. Hopefully I'm not misrepresenting you there.

Tightening the borders of origin countries is all well and good on paper. In real life, if you'll forgive me, not so much. Even a faint semblance of control of the borders of, for example, two of the three countries mentioned a page back (Nigeria and Guinea) is never going to happen without massive resources that no one is realistically going to supply. Just look at the terrain, the topography. The Yanks with all their resources struggle to halt gang movement through southern Texas. A lot of European nations similarly fall down on border control. You're suggesting much, much poorer countries attempt something vastly more ambitious in a far more challenging environment. It's utterly unrealistic. And it'll all have to be conducted with organisations like Boko Haram - which hold actual territory - opposing every step. Nigeria is relatively well equipped with boots and arms these days, and they still fall to bits when they have to contend with those guys outside of the large population centres. Forget it. Even if the monies required for border security and the other home based measures you mentioned were injected in the necessary quantities by western nations and criminal/terrorist networks weren't a factor, both countries are riven with the sort of naked corruption and volatile ethnic politics that are made worse not better by the arrival of outsiders waving bottomless cheque books at government officials. The money would achieve next to nothing unless the corruption and factional rivalries were already dealt with internally. In other words, the tribalism that defines most African politics would first have to end. Chances of that are zero. And, if we're honest, we all know it. The Southern Zim example you picked out as a signpost of how it could be done is in a completely different league. I think you're comparing apples with harpsichords there.

Having said all that, I do think you're spot on to identify the point of origin as a critical factor in the equation. I've said before that I see David Cameron as a dyed in the wool careerist politician. But he was one of the very few who called this right way back at the beginning of the Syria crisis when he proposed we pump resources into camps as close as possible to the borders of fractured countries where migrant flows are originating. Process and assess them there. Not thousands of miles away when they're knocking on the door. And if there isn't a pressing reason for their migration, send them back home. If they skip past the camps and make their way into Europe, the moment they're picked up it's back to the camp and the back of the camp queue.

Guy: Thank you for picking up on the point I'm making about the role played by organised crime in people smuggling. You're right: this could be much more manageable if the crime networks weren't so entrenched. However, it's also the case that getting rid of them is not something that is going to happen in the next few years, or even longer. It's a project that's been going on fruitlessly for decades. Easy to say it needs addressing. Another thing entirely to actually address it. Don't forget that in Italy members of the judiciary need to familiarise themselves with the very real possibility of being blown up and murdered for taking on organised crime. Granted, the game is slightly different these days from the bombings of the 90s and 00s. But if anything the Ndrangheta and others who've slowly overtaken the mafia of a generation ago are even less scrupulous. They're left alone for good reason. They have resources that may as well be infinite since Open Doors, and if you're a judge on a mission they're likely to slowly kill your children with acid and lump hammers before they kill you. That gives most people genuine pause for thought. They're here to stay for the foreseeable future. Whole chunks of southern Italy are effectively their fiefdoms. What I'm saying is that short of turning Italy - southern Italy in particular - into a militarised police state there is no feasible way of getting rid of these guys in the short to medium term. The nation lacks the wherewithal to do it. But it is in a position to turn back those boats. Unpleasant as it may be, it's the only realistic option.

Farva: When you say we need to address the root causes that propel people out of their home nation to another, what we're looking at is the same thing we're always looking at when the phrase 'root causes' enters the conversation. Colossal and speculative interventions that may or may not work in the long term but have no chance in the short unless backed up by military might. Addressing root causes such that migratory flows out of African countries become inconsequential would entail the wholesale taking over of nation state competences such as policing, border control and their judiciaries. That's not going to happen. It's mark II revamped imperialism. It's pie in the sky. You can't buy that kind of influence. You have to win it with firepower. And even then . . . . You're ignoring the one blistering lesson we can all agree Iraq taught us.

Throwing skip loads of money at it isn't going to help either unless very tightly administered. Your proposal that we issue aid without conditions is, with respect, lunacy. Offering free and unconditional money to corrupt governments in broken places nearly always makes things worse, not better. Report after report has come out over the last ten years highlighting how easily aid funds get misappropriated, abused, and embezzled in Africa. Even with conditions attached. The UN, UK, US, pretty much everyone has been royally suckered by various self interested parties governing from Sierra Leone to Mozambique. Who in West Africa, in Guinea, Nigeria, Liberia, Mali, Sierra Leone would you be content to hand a billion to no questions asked? I can't think of anyone. Conditions are a must. And then some. And once conditions are attached with all the checks and balances they require, the wheels start to grind much, much more slowly. In short, even well administered aid isn't going to fix what's going on in the Med for the foreseeable future.

On the climate change issue: I hear what you guys are saying. Once again, however, I don't see how pursuing this goal is going to make a difference worth talking about in respect of migration in the medium term. How long will it take to halt/reverse the damage you're talking about in sub Saharan Africa? Is it less than five years? It better be. I think we're in a race at the moment. As Sewa and others have noted, the longer the migration flows continue the better the hard right is doing in elections across Europe. I reckon another 6/7 years of this issue in the headlines and we'll almost certainly see a major EU country's electorate toss in the towel and say 'to hell with it' and vote for something entirely avoidable because they're fed up to the back teeth. I don't see how showering European electorates with solar panels and wind farms in the meantime will avert this. On the other hand, I can see how stopping the boats would puncture that balloon pretty quickly.

All of the above is centred on African migration. Middle-Eastern is a whole other kettle of fish and even more intractable when it comes to stopping at source. IMO, there are no pleasant answers here. If we turn the boats around, some people are going to die. No question of that. On the other hand, if we continue to signal we're open to arrivals, others will drown in their efforts to cross. And a little down the line we run the very real risk we'll also get an updated version of the sort of unpredictable hard right no one wants. I know which option I'm less uncomfortable choosing.

Merkel's well intentioned throw of the dice has worked out terribly. She has a lot to answer for. The most damaging political decision made in Europe for a generation.

Bed.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:58 am 
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As always Hermes, you provide a fascinating insight, cheers.

Your comment about Cameron's regional processing idea struck a chord... Julia Gillard proposed a similar idea partnering Australia with Malaysia and other parties including the UN to process refugees on shore in Malaysia and avoiding the whole people smuggling business that way.

The idea was shot down by the Tony Abbott led conservative govt and Abbott now trots around the world trumpeting the success of his alternative. Internment at huge cost on off shore camps.

The Hard Right will win through on this if some serious bargaining power isn't brought to the table and if they do, we'll have war. Simple.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:34 am 
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Thanks for taking the time to post that HT.

hermes-trismegistus wrote:

Assfly: If I read you right over the last page or two your broad point seems to be that potential migrants need to be incentivised to stay put. Police borders of origin countries better, work with relevant governments, put money in at the point of departure pre-departure, get local government to inform people of the hazards of travelling; at the same time, if people make it as far as the European coast, don't be so inhumane as to reject their efforts to enter; better to let them in than not. Hopefully I'm not misrepresenting you there.

Tightening the borders of origin countries is all well and good on paper. In real life, if you'll forgive me, not so much. Even a faint semblance of control of the borders of, for example, two of the three countries mentioned a page back (Nigeria and Guinea) is never going to happen without massive resources that no one is realistically going to supply. Just look at the terrain, the topography. The Yanks with all their resources struggle to halt gang movement through southern Texas. A lot of European nations similarly fall down on border control. You're suggesting much, much poorer countries attempt something vastly more ambitious in a far more challenging environment. It's utterly unrealistic. And it'll all have to be conducted with organisations like Boko Haram - which hold actual territory - opposing every step. Nigeria is relatively well equipped with boots and arms these days, and they still fall to bits when they have to contend with those guys outside of the large population centres. Forget it. Even if the monies required for border security and the other home based measures you mentioned were injected in the necessary quantities by western nations and criminal/terrorist networks weren't a factor, both countries are riven with the sort of naked corruption and volatile ethnic politics that are made worse not better by the arrival of outsiders waving bottomless cheque books at government officials. The money would achieve next to nothing unless the corruption and factional rivalries were already dealt with internally. In other words, the tribalism that defines most African politics would first have to end. Chances of that are zero. And, if we're honest, we all know it. The Southern Zim example you picked out as a signpost of how it could be done is in a completely different league. I think you're comparing apples with harpsichords there.

Having said all that, I do think you're spot on to identify the point of origin as a critical factor in the equation. I've said before that I see David Cameron as a dyed in the wool careerist politician. But he was one of the very few who called this right way back at the beginning of the Syria crisis when he proposed we pump resources into camps as close as possible to the borders of fractured countries where migrant flows are originating. Process and assess them there. Not thousands of miles away when they're knocking on the door. And if there isn't a pressing reason for their migration, send them back home. If they skip past the camps and make their way into Europe, the moment they're picked up it's back to the camp and the back of the camp queue.


I think you've pretty much captured the points I was putting across, but a couple of things:

Border control is definitely a challenge, especially with countries as large as those in West Africa. You're correct about the restraints. For me though, it is only a part of a solution. There is no way a fence can be put up and controlled, there is a better chance of Trump's wall with Mexico going up. But this would have to work hand in hand with the other incentives that have been raised. What's also critical about border control is it would have to involve local governments wanting to keep their local population at home - this intent would be a major step in the right direction.

Your point about Boko Haram is also important. Some form of counter-terrorism assistance from other countries would most likely be needed, which has now become problematic as the US appears to have almost lost all interest in Africa under Trump.

I do, however, have a problem with this:

Quote:
tribalism that defines most African politics


It's a gross generalisation and oversimplification and very unhelpful to the debate.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:12 am 
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Africa needs trade and stability from debt. The IMF does a terrible job in this regards.

Great post Hermes as alway, question ; would mitigation by engineering in areas affected by climate change bring both jobs and an answer ? Particularly as coastal infrastructure could included port s ?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:17 am 
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bimboman wrote:
Africa needs trade and stability from debt. The IMF does a terrible job in this regards.


Anywhere in particular, or does this rule apply to every single country regardless of their importing & exporting levels and economic situation?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:18 am 
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assfly wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Africa needs trade and stability from debt. The IMF does a terrible job in this regards.


Anywhere in particular, or does this rule apply to every single country regardless of their importing & exporting levels and economic situation?



Pretty much everywhere has something they can export doesn't it ? Pretty much all of those exports need a level of processing don't they ? If you know of really string internal markets that don't need international trade maybe they could become the model.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:30 am 
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bimboman wrote:
assfly wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Africa needs trade and stability from debt. The IMF does a terrible job in this regards.


Anywhere in particular, or does this rule apply to every single country regardless of their importing & exporting levels and economic situation?



Pretty much everywhere has something they can export doesn't it ? Pretty much all of those exports need a level of processing don't they ? If you know of really string internal markets that don't need international trade maybe they could become the model.


He's asking for country names, Bimbo. Africa is quite a big place.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:34 am 
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The migrants are exactly the sort of people the origin countries need to improve their governance and economy. They have guts and money. Allowing them to jump ship helps no one else really.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:34 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
bimboman wrote:
assfly wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Africa needs trade and stability from debt. The IMF does a terrible job in this regards.


Anywhere in particular, or does this rule apply to every single country regardless of their importing & exporting levels and economic situation?



Pretty much everywhere has something they can export doesn't it ? Pretty much all of those exports need a level of processing don't they ? If you know of really string internal markets that don't need international trade maybe they could become the model.


He's asking for country names, Bimbo. Africa is quite a big place.



Oh ok, Cameroon, Gabon, Nigeria, Kenya and Mozambique as starters.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:35 am 
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:lol: ok then.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:45 am 
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Pat the Ex Mat wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
You are dead wrong. The only solution that will cut it is the most simple. They cannot move to Europe.


"Economic Migrant pulls ladder up behind him shock"


Funny type of migrant who has several thousand years of dna evidence residing in the location he is living. It's a constant and stupid refrain on here. Everyone on here almost without exception shares close cultural and civilisational ties. There are no migrants grabbing a quiet moment from the deck of a boat near Malta posing their thoughts on the junior world Cup or the way they deploy toilet paper. And there is a good reason for that.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:47 am 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
Pat the Ex Mat wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
You are dead wrong. The only solution that will cut it is the most simple. They cannot move to Europe.


"Economic Migrant pulls ladder up behind him shock"


Funny type of migrant who has several thousand years of dna evidence residing in the location he is living. It's a constant and stupid refrain on here. Everyone on here almost without exception shares close cultural and civilisational ties. There are no migrants grabbing a quiet moment from the deck of a boat near Malta posing their thoughts on the junior world Cup or the way they deploy toilet paper. And there is a good reason for that.


Of course.... :roll:

All of you right-wing trolls on here mark them as Economic Migrants when it suits you..


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:49 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
As always Hermes, you provide a fascinating insight, cheers.

Your comment about Cameron's regional processing idea struck a chord... Julia Gillard proposed a similar idea partnering Australia with Malaysia and other parties including the UN to process refugees on shore in Malaysia and avoiding the whole people smuggling business that way.

The idea was shot down by the Tony Abbott led conservative govt and Abbott now trots around the world trumpeting the success of his alternative. Internment at huge cost on off shore camps.

The Hard Right will win through on this if some serious bargaining power isn't brought to the table and if they do, we'll have war. Simple.


War between who?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:49 am 
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assfly wrote:
:lol: ok then.



Interestingly, an African internal market without possibly freemovement would be a good start for some regions , so talking "Africa" as a whole (more likely regional would potentially trade wise be incredibly sensible.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:51 am 
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Pat the Ex Mat wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
Pat the Ex Mat wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
You are dead wrong. The only solution that will cut it is the most simple. They cannot move to Europe.


"Economic Migrant pulls ladder up behind him shock"


Funny type of migrant who has several thousand years of dna evidence residing in the location he is living. It's a constant and stupid refrain on here. Everyone on here almost without exception shares close cultural and civilisational ties. There are no migrants grabbing a quiet moment from the deck of a boat near Malta posing their thoughts on the junior world Cup or the way they deploy toilet paper. And there is a good reason for that.


Of course.... :roll:

All of you right-wing trolls on here mark them as Economic Migrants when it suits you..


Well what are you? Aussie or English? I've never been able to work it out? You've even got the name expat in your name ffs!


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:51 am 
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Pat the Ex Mat wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
Pat the Ex Mat wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
You are dead wrong. The only solution that will cut it is the most simple. They cannot move to Europe.


"Economic Migrant pulls ladder up behind him shock"


Funny type of migrant who has several thousand years of dna evidence residing in the location he is living. It's a constant and stupid refrain on here. Everyone on here almost without exception shares close cultural and civilisational ties. There are no migrants grabbing a quiet moment from the deck of a boat near Malta posing their thoughts on the junior world Cup or the way they deploy toilet paper. And there is a good reason for that.


Of course.... :roll:

All of you right-wing trolls on here mark them as Economic Migrants when it suits you..


Aussie and Kiwi migrants in the 80's and 90's were certainly Economic migrants, so are British doctors moving to Adelaide.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:52 am 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
As always Hermes, you provide a fascinating insight, cheers.

Your comment about Cameron's regional processing idea struck a chord... Julia Gillard proposed a similar idea partnering Australia with Malaysia and other parties including the UN to process refugees on shore in Malaysia and avoiding the whole people smuggling business that way.

The idea was shot down by the Tony Abbott led conservative govt and Abbott now trots around the world trumpeting the success of his alternative. Internment at huge cost on off shore camps.

The Hard Right will win through on this if some serious bargaining power isn't brought to the table and if they do, we'll have war. Simple.


War between who?


Economic migrants and the priviledged few left in the home counties with fresh food.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:53 am 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
Pat the Ex Mat wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
Pat the Ex Mat wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
You are dead wrong. The only solution that will cut it is the most simple. They cannot move to Europe.


"Economic Migrant pulls ladder up behind him shock"


Funny type of migrant who has several thousand years of dna evidence residing in the location he is living. It's a constant and stupid refrain on here. Everyone on here almost without exception shares close cultural and civilisational ties. There are no migrants grabbing a quiet moment from the deck of a boat near Malta posing their thoughts on the junior world Cup or the way they deploy toilet paper. And there is a good reason for that.


Of course.... :roll:

All of you right-wing trolls on here mark them as Economic Migrants when it suits you..


Well what are you? Aussie or English? I've never been able to work it out? You've even got the name expat in your name ffs!


British :D

But I fully admit I'm an economic migrant. Just like you and these migrants - according to your alt-right friends. :nod:


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:55 am 
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bimboman wrote:
Interestingly, an African internal market without possibly freemovement would be a good start for some regions , so talking "Africa" as a whole (more likely regional would potentially trade wise be incredibly sensible.


Regional, yes. There are signs of that happening in the East African Community with various levels of integration improving. But a continent-wide internal market won't work.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:57 am 
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bimboman wrote:
Pat the Ex Mat wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
Pat the Ex Mat wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
You are dead wrong. The only solution that will cut it is the most simple. They cannot move to Europe.


"Economic Migrant pulls ladder up behind him shock"


Funny type of migrant who has several thousand years of dna evidence residing in the location he is living. It's a constant and stupid refrain on here. Everyone on here almost without exception shares close cultural and civilisational ties. There are no migrants grabbing a quiet moment from the deck of a boat near Malta posing their thoughts on the junior world Cup or the way they deploy toilet paper. And there is a good reason for that.


Of course.... :roll:

All of you right-wing trolls on here mark them as Economic Migrants when it suits you..


Aussie and Kiwi migrants in the 80's and 90's were certainly Economic migrants, so are British doctors moving to Adelaide.


Rubbish. There are complex cultural and lifestyle reasons for movement between Australia, New Zealand, UK and Canada. There was a little economic stuff eg lower class nzers moving for the mining boom in Australia but the countries all have roughly equivalent income levels. What they do have is contrasting lifestyles, and that is mostly the driver.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:03 am 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
Rubbish. There are complex cultural and lifestyle reasons for movement between Australia, New Zealand, UK and Canada. There was a little economic stuff eg lower class nzers moving for the mining boom in Australia but the countries all have roughly equivalent income levels. What they do have is contrasting lifestyles, and that is mostly the driver.


$$$$ you mean? :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:03 am 
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Quote:

British :D

But I fully admit I'm an economic migrant. Just like you and these migrants - according to your alt-right friends. :nod:


I'm not an economic migrant. You have no idea of my motivations. And I'm not going to tell you. The tendency on here to simplify this issue and project and reduce it to money is unhelpful in these discussion.

Trying to pick a silly hole between my personal circumstances and my ideology is frutliless. If I am an alt-right loon I will have some broader idea of north western European identity that fully encapsulates my thinking anyway (call it good old fashioned racism if you wish).


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:04 am 
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Quote:
Rubbish. There are complex cultural and lifestyle reasons for movement between Australia, New Zealand, UK and Canada. There was a little economic stuff eg lower class nzers moving for the mining boom in Australia but the countries all have roughly equivalent income levels. What they do have is contrasting lifestyles, and that is mostly the driver.



Well that and the city had thousands of jobs for barely employed accountants from Invercargil and Newcastle nsw, Be honest they came for the Dosh especially as sterling was strong.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:07 am 
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bimboman wrote:
Quote:
Rubbish. There are complex cultural and lifestyle reasons for movement between Australia, New Zealand, UK and Canada. There was a little economic stuff eg lower class nzers moving for the mining boom in Australia but the countries all have roughly equivalent income levels. What they do have is contrasting lifestyles, and that is mostly the driver.



Well that and the city had thousands of jobs for barely employed accountants from Invercargil and Newcastle nsw, Be honest they came for the Dosh especially as sterling was strong.


Absolutely - Worked with plenty of Kiwis who were here on their OA and had no qualms about saying they were always moving back to NZ after caning it.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:08 am 
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Pat the Ex Mat wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
Rubbish. There are complex cultural and lifestyle reasons for movement between Australia, New Zealand, UK and Canada. There was a little economic stuff eg lower class nzers moving for the mining boom in Australia but the countries all have roughly equivalent income levels. What they do have is contrasting lifestyles, and that is mostly the driver.


$$$$ you mean? :lol:


For people living in Peterborough I have found the constant over arching driver sending them to Australia is weather. Then beaches. Unscientific anecdotal stuff.

Kiwis in London are motivated by drinking, travelling, music festivals, and knife crime.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:09 am 
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bimboman wrote:
Quote:
Rubbish. There are complex cultural and lifestyle reasons for movement between Australia, New Zealand, UK and Canada. There was a little economic stuff eg lower class nzers moving for the mining boom in Australia but the countries all have roughly equivalent income levels. What they do have is contrasting lifestyles, and that is mostly the driver.



Well that and the city had thousands of jobs for barely employed accountants from Invercargil and Newcastle nsw, Be honest they came for the Dosh especially as sterling was strong.


They came when all they could get was bar work too. You are focusing too hard on one data point.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:09 am 
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Pat the Ex Mat wrote:
bimboman wrote:
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Rubbish. There are complex cultural and lifestyle reasons for movement between Australia, New Zealand, UK and Canada. There was a little economic stuff eg lower class nzers moving for the mining boom in Australia but the countries all have roughly equivalent income levels. What they do have is contrasting lifestyles, and that is mostly the driver.



Well that and the city had thousands of jobs for barely employed accountants from Invercargil and Newcastle nsw, Be honest they came for the Dosh especially as sterling was strong.


Absolutely - Worked with plenty of Kiwis who were here on their OA and had no qualms about saying they were always moving back to NZ after caning it.


Caning it in the clubs of Kings Cross.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:11 am 
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bimboman wrote:
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Rubbish. There are complex cultural and lifestyle reasons for movement between Australia, New Zealand, UK and Canada. There was a little economic stuff eg lower class nzers moving for the mining boom in Australia but the countries all have roughly equivalent income levels. What they do have is contrasting lifestyles, and that is mostly the driver.



Well that and the city had thousands of jobs for barely employed accountants from Invercargil and Newcastle nsw, Be honest they came for the Dosh especially as sterling was strong.


The delta for most people in those cases was between a comfortable life and a very comfortable life.

Not really comparable to those moving from subsistence (or close to) to a modicum or more of real comfort.

To say otherwise is to quite undervalue the sacrifice and motivation of "real" economic migrants.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:16 am 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
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British :D

But I fully admit I'm an economic migrant. Just like you and these migrants - according to your alt-right friends. :nod:


I'm not an economic migrant. You have no idea of my motivations. And I'm not going to tell you. The tendency on here to simplify this issue and project and reduce it to money is unhelpful in these discussion.

Trying to pick a silly hole between my personal circumstances and my ideology is frutliless. If I am an alt-right loon I will have some broader idea of north western European identity that fully encapsulates my thinking anyway (call it good old fashioned racism if you wish).


If only you could apply those same standards you demand for yourself to a boatload of asylum seekers wallowing in dangerous seas.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:17 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
Quote:

British :D

But I fully admit I'm an economic migrant. Just like you and these migrants - according to your alt-right friends. :nod:


I'm not an economic migrant. You have no idea of my motivations. And I'm not going to tell you. The tendency on here to simplify this issue and project and reduce it to money is unhelpful in these discussion.

Trying to pick a silly hole between my personal circumstances and my ideology is frutliless. If I am an alt-right loon I will have some broader idea of north western European identity that fully encapsulates my thinking anyway (call it good old fashioned racism if you wish).


If only you could apply those same standards you demand for yourself to a boatload of asylum seekers wallowing in dangerous seas.


But I do. They have a patch of the planet to call their own. And I respect that.

Edit: you slipped in asylum seekers there too. This thread isn't about genuine asylum seekers.


Last edited by Seneca of the Night on Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:18 am 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Quote:
Rubbish. There are complex cultural and lifestyle reasons for movement between Australia, New Zealand, UK and Canada. There was a little economic stuff eg lower class nzers moving for the mining boom in Australia but the countries all have roughly equivalent income levels. What they do have is contrasting lifestyles, and that is mostly the driver.



Well that and the city had thousands of jobs for barely employed accountants from Invercargil and Newcastle nsw, Be honest they came for the Dosh especially as sterling was strong.


They came when all they could get was bar work too. You are focusing too hard on one data point.


Plenty of IT, Accounting, Business Development types as well


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:21 am 
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Pat the Ex Mat wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Quote:
Rubbish. There are complex cultural and lifestyle reasons for movement between Australia, New Zealand, UK and Canada. There was a little economic stuff eg lower class nzers moving for the mining boom in Australia but the countries all have roughly equivalent income levels. What they do have is contrasting lifestyles, and that is mostly the driver.



Well that and the city had thousands of jobs for barely employed accountants from Invercargil and Newcastle nsw, Be honest they came for the Dosh especially as sterling was strong.


They came when all they could get was bar work too. You are focusing too hard on one data point.


Plenty of IT, Accounting, Business Development types as well


Of course there was. There are English lawyers all through the legal partnerships in new Zealand too. Shared culture innit. Almost identical one might say. Amazing coincidence.

It's like on star trek how wherever they went everyone spoke English I suppose.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:21 am 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
Quote:

British :D

But I fully admit I'm an economic migrant. Just like you and these migrants - according to your alt-right friends. :nod:


I'm not an economic migrant. You have no idea of my motivations. And I'm not going to tell you. The tendency on here to simplify this issue and project and reduce it to money is unhelpful in these discussion.

Trying to pick a silly hole between my personal circumstances and my ideology is frutliless. If I am an alt-right loon I will have some broader idea of north western European identity that fully encapsulates my thinking anyway (call it good old fashioned racism if you wish).


If only you could apply those same standards you demand for yourself to a boatload of asylum seekers wallowing in dangerous seas.


But I do. They have a patch of the planet to call their own. And I respect that.

Edit: you slipped in asylum seekers there too. This thread isn't about genuine asylum seekers.



There ya go.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:25 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
Quote:

British :D

But I fully admit I'm an economic migrant. Just like you and these migrants - according to your alt-right friends. :nod:


I'm not an economic migrant. You have no idea of my motivations. And I'm not going to tell you. The tendency on here to simplify this issue and project and reduce it to money is unhelpful in these discussion.

Trying to pick a silly hole between my personal circumstances and my ideology is frutliless. If I am an alt-right loon I will have some broader idea of north western European identity that fully encapsulates my thinking anyway (call it good old fashioned racism if you wish).


If only you could apply those same standards you demand for yourself to a boatload of asylum seekers wallowing in dangerous seas.


But I do. They have a patch of the planet to call their own. And I respect that.

Edit: you slipped in asylum seekers there too. This thread isn't about genuine asylum seekers.



There ya go.


Is this one of those threads where you completely fail to understand what is being discussed so declare a succession of victories over an opponent merely expressing an opinion, over which a debate cannot by definition be won?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:27 am 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
Pat the Ex Mat wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
You are dead wrong. The only solution that will cut it is the most simple. They cannot move to Europe.


"Economic Migrant pulls ladder up behind him shock"


Funny type of migrant who has several thousand years of dna evidence residing in the location he is living.....

So you're being belatedly repatriated from a land with which your forbears had no more cultural ties than African boat migrants.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:35 am 
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shereblue wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
Pat the Ex Mat wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
You are dead wrong. The only solution that will cut it is the most simple. They cannot move to Europe.


"Economic Migrant pulls ladder up behind him shock"


Funny type of migrant who has several thousand years of dna evidence residing in the location he is living.....

So you're being belatedly repatriated from a land with which your forbears had no more cultural ties than African boat migrants.


That's one argument. The other argument is that new Zealand and Australia and Canada are European settler nations. There is no analogy there with west African homeland countries.

For better or for worse, the fact of certain new world countries is a fact. For other imperial projects it is and was not. The British left India, the French indo. China, and so forth. South Africa is an interesting case in the balance.

This is a discussion that is nuanced.


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